Hope to use this thread to further ideas of the great Indic game (if there indeed is one?)
09-30-2003, 01:10 AM
(This post was last modified: 09-30-2003, 01:13 AM by muddur.)
The final word on Pakistan
[url="http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/sep/29das.htm"]http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/sep/29das.htm[/url]
More than elation, there was a sense of quiet satisfaction at home with Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee's powerful rejoinder to General Pervez Musharraf's outburst at the UN General Assembly. Pakistan's president needed to be told a few home truths about his brazen duplicity and his penchant for blackmail. When he followed his UN intervention with the firm assertion that the atmosphere is not conducive to talks, Vajpayee did more than dispel an impression in Islamabad that his hand of friendship was born of weakness. He simultaneously removed the confusion that has dogged India's foreign policy and security establishments for the past five months.
This is not to suggest that the prime minister blundered in believing that the post-December 2000 stalemate should be broken. The test of political leadership lies in creating opportunities, sometimes out of nothing. When Menachem Begin flew to Cairo and embraced Anwar Sadat in 1978, it was an act of audacity. Yet, they established the foundations of an Israeli-Egyptian understanding that overturned three decades of Arab grandstanding, and still lives on.
Vajpayee's bus ride to Lahore in 1999, the Agra summit and Srinagar speech aimed precisely at such an outcome. Alas, the results on each occasion have been disappointing. We offer peace, they reply with a war in Kargil, an attack on Parliament, bomb blasts in Mumbai and jihad in Kashmir.
Perhaps the time has come to review the assumption that we are dealing with an otherwise decent neighbour who merely claims some of our land as his own. 
We love to believe that the kindness shown to a Pakistani child with a heart ailment will melt even the most hardened souls across the border. We love to believe that the overpowering strength of the hospitality we experience during casual visits to Lahore means that politics is the only hurdle to rapprochement. And we love to believe, as Rajiv Gandhi once put it, that the Taj Mahal is as much theirs as Mohenjodaro is ours.
The time for such romantic piffle is over. Actually, there was never any basis for it. The Quaid-e-Azam may have been a clubbable soul who loved Malabar Hill as much he loved Hampstead, and certainly more than he appreciated Karachi. But there was an inescapable logic to the creation of Pakistan that has reached fruition now.
To put it bluntly, India and Pakistan belong to different civilisations. Yes, there was a common heritage once but it is naive to believe that there is anything remotely in common between Mohammed Ali Jinnah and Ghazi Baba. The cultural convergence between India and Pakistan belongs to history. Only the dregs of India like Dawood Ibrahim and the tribe of professional capitulationists who assemble at Wagah each Independence Day believe otherwise. A recognition of this separateness must form the basis of all future dealings with Pakistan.
Second, we must realise that we are not dealing with a failed state if only that was true but with what V S Naipaul once called a criminal enterprise. Just because some of their representatives are charming, convivial and keep a good table doesnt make the Pakistani state any less venal. Remember the lies Musharraf uttered before the Agra summit about Dawood not being in Pakistan and look at the stories coming out of Karachi last week.
Third, we must constantly bear in mind that Pakistan's strategic objective remains the bleeding of India. The fulfilment of that goal doesnt merely involve sending its mujahideen to Kashmir and triggering explosives in Mumbai, it necessitates creating jihadi networks in Hyderabad and printing counterfeit Rs 500 notes.
Finally, it means never letting our guard down. We made that mistake in 1999 and lost some 700 of our soldiers in Kargil as a result. This time we didn't repeat the error. For this we must also be grateful to our diplomats and our intelligence establishment that refused to be swayed by vacuous emotionalism.
For too long India has allowed its responses to be guided by the sanctimoniousness of a professional peace lobby. It is time we ignored these appeasers of jihad. Let the prime minister's pronouncement that India cannot negotiate with terrorists be the final word on Pakistan.
[url="http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/feb/21rajeev.htm"]Towards a hard state: coercion, carrots, covert action, containment[/url] by Rajeev Srinivasan
Swapan Das Gupta hits it right on the button. Pakistan is not just a failed state but a criminal enterprise (the phrase coined by VS Naipaul. If it was a failed state it would be a cause for rejoicing, but i dont see anybody in India dancing the Bhangra when it comes to Pakistan.
Quote:Second, we must realise that we are not dealing with a failed state if only that was true but with what V S Naipaul once called a criminal enterprise. Just because some of their representatives are charming, convivial and keep a good table doesnt make the Pakistani state any less venal. Remember the lies Musharraf uttered before the Agra summit about Dawood not being in Pakistan and look at the stories coming out of Karachi last week.
 tupid [url="http://famulus.msnbc.com/FamulusIntl/reuters09-29-054321.asp?reg=ASIA"]Pakistan regrets Commonwealth ruling, blames India[/url]
Sometimes I feel we don't give enough credit to Sinha and his babus in MEA.
China, India and possibly Russia to sign non-aggression pact with ASEAN
[url="http://www.spacewar.com/2003/030929014856.yxg7f27e.html"]http://www.spacewar.com/2003/030929014856....6.yxg7f27e.html[/url]
Nuclear powers China and India and possibly Russia are to sign a non-aggression pact with Southeast Asia, laying the ground for managing potential conflicts in the region, ASEAN officials say.
They will be the first foreign powers to adhere to the Treaty of Amity and Cooperation (TAC) at the leaders meeting of the 10-member Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) in Indonesia's Bali resort next week.
"Right now, only China and India are sure to accede to the Treaty while Russia, which also wants to sign up, is awaiting approval from its parliament," ASEAN spokesman M.C. Abad told AFP.
The United States, which is stamping its influence on the region through its fight against terrorism, is unlikely to follow suit as its activities may be constrained by the treaty, analysts say.
Sundram Pushpanathan, ASEAN's head of external relations, said that by signing up to the TAC, "China and India will come into the inner circle of ASEAN," grouping Brunei, Cambodia, Indonesia, Laos, Malaysia, Myanmar, the Philippines, Singapore, Thailand and Vietnam.
"This reflects the high level of commitment by China and India to the peace and security of the region and it will pave the way for greater engagements by them in regional political and security matters," he said.
One of the most important principles of TAC, adopted in 1976 by the core Southeast Asian countries worried then by the rise of communism, is the renunciation of the threat of use of force.
The other key principles are respect among member nations for their sovereignity and territorial integrity, non-interference in each other's affairs and peaceful settlement of disputes.
Under the TAC, a so-called High Council is in charge of resolving conflicts among signatories bound by a code of conduct in inter-state relations.
"The council, composed of representatives of all the contracting parties at the ministerial level, will take cognizance of disputes likely to disturb peace in the region," Abad said.
"It can also constitute itself as a process for mediation and recommend measures to the parties in dispute," he said.
But the council has not been convened since TAC came into force.
Indonesia, the current chairman of the ASEAN standing committee, the grouping's policy-making body, may propose to give the council more teeth as an efficient dispute-resolving mechanism.
China, which has overlapping claims over the Spratly islands in the South China Sea with some ASEAN states, particularly may want to test the effectiveness of the TAC in resolving disputes.
Brunei, Malaysia, the Philippines and Vietnam, as well as China and Taiwan claim the Spratly Islands, a potentially oil-rich archipelago.
The ASEAN states last year signed a treaty with China aimed at preventing an escalation of tensions over the Spratlys.
Vietnam and China have clashed twice over the Spratlys, in 1988 and 1992, while skirmishes have also occurred between other countries, threatening to undermine regional security.
But ASEAN officials said China's accession to TAC should be seen in a larger context.
"Maybe for China's case, it is a demonstration of their commitment to abide by the rules of international relations which should be seen in the global text -- for example their accession to the WTO (World Trade Organisation) is one of their biggest expression of that readiness and signing on to the TAC will be another," Abad said.
In fact, he said, ASEAN wanted all its dialogue partners, including the United States, to accede to the TAC.
China and India are also members of the ASEAN Regional Forum, the top regional security umbrella which brings in all the big powers -- the United States, Russia, Japan and the European Union and India -- to discuss security issues, including counter-terrorism.
Mohamed Jawhar Hassan, the director-general of the Institute of Strategic and International Studies, Malaysia, said the United States was unlikely to adhere to the TAC.
"Not only in Southeast Asia but elsewhere, the United States is very hegemonic in its approach and it wants to have freedom to do this and that.
"So perhaps it feels that submitting to such rules in the region ties its hands up," he said.
[url="http://www.motherjones.com/news/dailymojo/2003/40/we_555_03a.html"]http://www.motherjones.com/news/dailymojo/...we_555_03a.html[/url]
Quote:Musharraf's Bind
His North America tour may be over, but questions persist about Gen. Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan's president-cum-dictator. Which countries is Pakistan giving nuclear technology to? Do the Pakistani Army and Inter-Services Intelligence (still) support extremist groups? Does the general have enough control to crack down on Islamic extremists? Does he really want to? How long, exactly, does he plan to stay in office? How long will he be allowed to?
...
Does America knows pak had a hand in 9/11 attack?
If yes,how US is ignoring this?Why america is silent about nuclear leak from pak?
If i assume that BUSH is not an idiot or enemy of americans then i have only one answer to this: US is sleeping again like she was before 11 sep,2001!!!!
This silence and delay is dangerous.
Another viewpoint the ASEAN security pact in Martin Walker's UPI column
[url="http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20030930-012554-7176r.htm"]Southeast Asia pact influence expanding[/url]
Why at this stage Pakistan is testing its missile?
1) Lot of inside pressure?
2) Show Muslim countries that they are future boss of Ummah? they are the only one can show fingure to US??
3) No chance of peace talk between India and Paki??
contd..from above.
4. TSP desperately seeking attention.
I'd love to see them do a missile test everyday <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='  ' />
Go Mushy Go, Paki Pain da Bad
India takes serious note of Musharraf's propaganda.
Press Trust of India
New Delhi, October 5
India has taken serious note of the recent statements of Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf on his country's nuclear capability which it feels he may be using to build up a case for a pre-emptive strike against India.
[url="http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_403576,001300270001.htm"]http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_403...01300270001.htm[/url]
Government sources, who have read "more than the usual" anti-India rhetoric in Musharraf's recent statements including the one accusing New Delhi of playing "dangerous" games in Pakistan, Kashmir and Afghanistan, feel that it is the General's latest "propaganda innovation" against India.
"They must know that we can retaliate in a big way and they should know that," Musharraf had told a Canadian newspaper Toronto Star.
"They (Indians) should never presume that they can do things and they can go unchecked", he had said adding that the "risk of full-fledged conflict with India can never be ruled out on South Asia."
"However, what is dangerous is whether there will be a conflict between India and Pakistan which can then lead on to a nuclear exchange," he had said.
Musharraf's latest threatening references to his country's nuclear capability give an impression that the "General's fingers are restive to press the button on the slightest pretext," the sources said.
They noted that Musharraf has threatened a number of times, and subsequently denied, to use the nuclear bomb "if war was imposed on Pakistan".
Israel has shown that it gives a F for world opinion. Its deep bombing raid on Syria has indeed been a very impressive response. We would love to do the same to TSP but I am sure the US had given the green signal to do it. With TSP the US is more likely to try and help it against India. But this bombing has been a good thing over all because it has given the Ummah a loud message and the Ummah's fear has been reinforced.
Good post Praneet (Sep 27 2003, 09:22 PM ). Like to see more analysis such as yours to maintain a balance between analysis and news.
A fairly decent article, albeit in keeping with Pakistan's obsession with India. The point is that India's moves in the CAR have not passed unnoticed in the terrorist state.
A question that arises is why does no Paki ask himself the question - if India can have good relations with every other Muslim state in the world except Pakistan, then surely one can ask the question , if India and Pakistan are hostile ,could it be because Pakistan wants that to be the case ?
Kaushal
Quote of the Day
You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions.
--Unknown
Provided by Out2Teach.com
[url="http://www.paktribune.com/news/index.php?id=40588"]The great game[/url]
Tuesday October 07, 2003 (0352 PST)
Alauddin Masood
Call it the gola effect. Even Armitage has started talking in terms of percentages now!
[url="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20031006/pl_afp/pakistan_us_031006163212"]Top US envoy says Pakistan's military "200 percent" behind Musharraf[/url] though "not every member of Pakistan's security forces shared President Pervez Musharraf's commitment to the US-led hunt for Taliban and al-Qaeda" <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='  ' />
Americans have become adept at talking in the language of the country that they are currently visiting. While in india they talk about strategic issues (a favorite topic with Indians) in Pakistan they talk about how they will jointly screw India 200%. If 200% is better than 100%, then surely one can ask why not 1000% which must be even better.
The problem with all this devious game playing is that it fools nobody (maybe they think it does).
[quote name='Kaushal' date='Oct 7 2003, 10:42 AM'] The problem with all this devious game playing is that it fools nobody (maybe they think it does). [/quote]
I think I the statement is more for local US or maybe Paki consumption than anything to do with India. Since when did India gave a rat's behind whether TSP army was behind the mushy rat's behind 2% or 200% or 2000%
Looks like there's some trouble brewing with the sunni leader being dispatched to his 72 houris. What better way to assuage the FUD (fear-uncertainity-distrust) factor among the rank and file than a certificate from US State Dept itself.
>>>trouble brewing
Mushy/ISI did very clever act by eliminating Tariq of SSP.
It is a message to SSP, as they are close to Al-Queda or OBL.
Plus recent release of tape, showing finger to Mushy. ISI/Mushy knows who are behing this.
I think OBL and its group days are numbered if they show direspect to their boss Mushy/PA/ISI.
[url="http://www.hipakistan.com/en/detail.php?newsId=en40959&F_catID=&f_type=source"]Opposition blames Musharraf -- Detail Story[/url]
ISLAMABAD: The combined opposition in the National Assembly has condemned the killing of MNA Maulana Azam Tariq along with his four bodyguards and held President Gen Pervez Musharraf responsible for what they said was a serious breakdown in the law and order.
It demanded immediate resignation by the government and particularly interior minister Faisal Saleh Hayat, sacking of top officials of the law-enforcement agencies who they said miserably failed to provide foolproof security to the people
[url="http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_407341,0008.htm"]Pakistan denies visa to Indian Hindu pilgrims[/url] but [url="http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_405611,00050002.htm"]Indian Lion's Club to sponsor medical treatment of 100 Pakistani kids[/url] <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=' ' />
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