Islamism - 7

[Guest]

http://www.indianexpress.com/story/27206.html

Who’s responsible for the stereotypes of Islam?

Sudheendra Kulkarni

Posted online: Sunday, April 01, 2007 at 0000 hrs IST


Islam fascinates me. But the conduct of some of its adherents also frustrates me. The positive aspects of Islam are too numerous to escape the attention of any unprejudiced and truth-seeking non-Muslim. For example, Hindus have much to learn from Muslims about the virtue of solidarity and fellow-feeling within their community. During the month of Ramadan, I am captivated by the sight of Muslims who, after offering their evening namaz, end their day’s fast by grouping together and eating from the same plate, without any distinction of class or status.

Also, one can only marvel at the power of devotion and the degree of self-surrender of many Muslim mystics, whose lives have undoubtedly influenced pious, ordinary Muslims. Here is a story told by Vinoba Bhave, the great Gandhian who learnt Arabic at age 50 just to study the Holy Quran in the original. An old Muslim saint once had a thorn in his foot. It had gone deep and doctors were worried that the pain involved in removing it would be too much for the old soul to bear. One of his devotees then told them, “Don’t worry. You remove it while he is offering his prayers. He will be so engrossed in Allah that he won’t feel anything.”

Sadly, this ennobling aspect of Islam sits uneasily with the fanaticism that tarnishes its image. Last week I was shocked to watch an interview with Zakir Naik, a well-known Mumbai-born Muslim preacher, whose TV talks on Islam are highly popular in India and around the world. His books and audio/video cassettes are sold in huge numbers worldwide.

Watch the interview at YouTube, the free video site on the Internet, and draw your own conclusions.

Interviewer: Here is a question from a non-Muslim from India. Are non-Muslims allowed to preach their religion and to build their places of worship in an Islamic state? If so, why is building of temples and churches disallowed in Saudi Arabia, whereas Muslims are building their mosques in London and Paris?

Zakir Naik: I ask the non-Muslims, suppose you are the principal of a school and you intend to select a mathematics teacher. Three candidates come and you ask them, what’s the total of 2 plus 2? The first replies: 2 plus 2 equals 3. The second answers: 2 plus 2 equals 4. And the third one answers that 2 plus 2 equals 6. Now, I ask these non-Muslims, will you allow the candidate to teach in your school who says that 2 plus 2 equals 3 or that 2 plus 2 equals 6? They’ll say, no. I ask, why? They’ll say, because he does not have correct knowledge of mathematics. Similarly, as far as matters of religion are concerned we (Muslims) know for sure that only Islam is a true religion in the eyes of God. In the Holy Quran (3:85), it is mentioned that God will never accept any religion other than Islam. As far as the second question, regarding building of churches or temples is concerned, how can we allow this when their religion is wrong and when their worshipping is wrong? Therefore, we will not allow such wrong things in our Islamic country.

Interviewer: But is it not that they (non-Muslims) also think that their religion is true, whereas we (Muslims) think that our religion is true?

Zakir Naik: In religious matters only we know for sure that we Muslims are right. They (non-Muslims) are not sure. Thus, in our country we can’t allow preaching other religions because we know for sure that only Islam is the right religion. However, if a non-Muslim likes to practise his religion in an Islamic country, he can do so inside his home — but he can’t propagate his religion. It is exactly as if a teacher thinks in his mind that 2 plus 2 equals 3. He has the right to do so, but we can never allow such a person to teach this to our children. Non-Muslims are no doubt experts in science and technology. But they (non-Muslims) are not sure about religious truths. Therefore, we are trying to get them to the right path of Islam.”

Naik’s views provoke a troubling question in my mind: “Why do some Muslims demand secularism and more than equal treatment in countries where they are a minority, but aggressively turn anti-secular and deny even equal treatment to non-Muslims in many Muslim-majority countries?” Muslims cannot escape their responsibility to answer this question.

Naik’s defense of the denial of fundamental human rights of non-Muslims in Saudi Arabia is not unrelated to an unbelievable incident that happened recently in the land where Islam was born. On February 26, four French nationals — all non-Muslims working in Saudi Arabia — were killed by gunmen. Their crime? They were resting on the side of a desert road about 10 miles from the holy city of Medina, which, like Mecca, is restricted to Muslims only.

Whenever non-Muslims, including those who admire Islam’s positive features, express alarm at incidents like these, or at views such as Zakir Naik’s, they are accused of spreading “stereotypes” about Islam and Muslims. But shouldn’t Muslims themselves be debating what produces these stereotypes?

[Guest]

<b>Arrested doctor identified as Bangalorean "Muslim"</b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Canberra, July 3: The Indian doctor held in Australia in connection with the failed car bombings in Britain has been identified as <b>Mohammed Haneef. </b>

Citing Queensland government records, ABC channel reported that Haneef was registered with the state health department as a temporary worker.

The 27-year-old Gold Coast Hospital registrar was arrested on Monday night at Brisbane international airport when he was trying to leave the country on a one-way ticket.
..............
Haneef's records show he graduated from the

Bangalore-based Rajiv Gandhi University of Health Sciences in India.

<b>The channel claimed the arrest in Brisbane came about because of a phone call made between Britain and Australia.</b>

Quoting a police source, it said a suspect arrested in Britain had a phone conversation with a person being held by authorities in Australia.

<b>It was not known who initiated the call, but that call is being cited as a key reason for the police action in Brisbane.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Guest]

previous thread
Islamism - 6
____________________________________________

This link is saying two Muslim Indian doctors from Bangalore are involved.<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> The Independent and The Muslim News newspapers in Britain reported that a man arrested in Liverpool on Saturday was a 26-year-old doctor from Bangalore who worked at Halton Hospital in Cheshire, northern England.

The The Muslim News also said the Indian doctor had used the car, cell phone and Internet account of a fellow physician who had moved from England to Australia around a year ago. It said police had asked friends of the Indian for details about the man who went to Australia<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Guest]

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story...053-601,00.html
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->This story is from The Times

<b>'Those who cure will kill you'</b>
Deborah Haynes in Baghdad, Michael Evans and Adam Fresco
July 04, 2007

<b>AN al-Qa'ida leader in Iraq boasted before last week's failed bombings in London and Glasgow that his group was planning to attack British targets and that "those who cure you will kill you".</b>

<i>The Times</i> of London reports the warning was delivered to Canon Andrew White, a senior British cleric working in Baghdad, and could be highly significant as the eight Muslims arrested in the wake of the failed plot are all members of the medical profession.

Canon White told <i>The Times</i> that he had passed the general warning, but not the specific words, to a senior official at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) in mid-April. A Foreign Office spokesman said last night that it was forwarding the actual words to the Metropolitan Police.

The Times also learnt yesterday that one of the suspects, the Iraqi doctor Bilal Abdulla, had links to radical Islamic groups, and that several of the eight suspects have now been linked to known extremist radicals listed on MI5’s data base.

<b>Canon White, who runs Baghdad’s only Anglican parish,</b> <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo--> said that he met the al-Qaeda leader on the fringes of a meeting about religious reconciliation held in Amman, the Jordanian capital.

<b>“He talked to me about how they were going to destroy British and Americans. He told me that the plans were already made and they would soon be destroying the British. He said the people who cure you would kill you.” </b>

The man, who was in his forties and had travelled from Syria for the meeting, said that the plans would come to fruition in the next few weeks and target the British first. He said that the British and Americans were being targeted because of their actions in Iraq.

He did not learn the man’s identity until after the meeting, and will not disclose it now, but said: “I met the Devil that day.”

Separately, intelligence sources told The Times that Bilal Abdulla, 27, the Iraqi doctor involved in the Jeep attack last Saturday on Glasgow airport, had links to radical Islamic groups and was plotting a terrorist attack.

They said that Dr Abdulla had met Mohammed Asha, 26, the Jordanian doctor arrested near Sandbach on Saturday night, through their fathers, who were friends. The two young doctors kept in touch after they came to Britain two or three years ago.

<b>The eight suspects are all young, Muslim and connected to the medical profession. But they come from Jordan, Iraq, other Middle Eastern countries and India, and before now there had been no clue as to how they met in this country.</b>

The last of the eight suspects to be arrested was named as Mohammed Haneef, 27, an Indian doctor working in Australia. He was taken into custody as he waited to make a one-way journey to India at Brisbane international airport on Monday night.

Australian police were also questioning Dr Haneef’s friend Mohammed Asif Ali, another Indian Muslim and fellow doctor. Both men had worked in hospitals in Liverpool before moving to Australia within a month of each other last autumn.

Two other Asian men were arrested in Blackburn yesterday after two deliveries of gas canisters to an industrial estate in the town. The men are being held at a police station in Lancashire on suspicion of offences under the Terrorism Act 2000, but police said it was too early to say whether the arrests were connected to the London and Glasgow attacks.

Police sources said that they believed they had now apprehended all the main suspects behind those attacks. The three Scottish suspects — Dr Abdulla and two men of Middle Eastern origin arrested at the Royal Alexandra Hospital near Glasgow on Sunday night — were moved yesterday to Paddington Green police station in West London.

There they joined Dr Asha, his wife Marwa, and Dr Sabeel Ahmed, 26, who was arrested in Liverpool on Saturday. Security sources said they believed Dr Abdulla and Dr Khalid Ahmed, named yesterday as the man who drove the Jeep into Glasgow airport, were also responsible for the failed car bombings in London on Friday.

Dr Ahmed, believed to be the brother of Sabeel, has not been officially arrested as he is critically ill in the Royal Alexandra Hospital with 90 per cent burns.

Several of the suspects have now been linked to known extremist radicals listed on MI5’s data base. Security sources told The Times that none of them had been under surveillance as part of any counter-terrorist operation.

The security sources said that although a number of the suspected plotters did feature on the data base, it was only in connection with general extremist activities.

Meanwhile, a suspect bag sparked a security alert at Heathrow Terminal 4. The departure lounge was evacuated so that passengers could be security checked for a second time. All European departures were cancelled.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,2...906-663,00.html
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Six medicos among arrested</b>
July 03, 2007 12:00am
SIX of the eight people arrested over a suspected al-Qaeda plot to detonate car bombs in London and Scotland are doctors, including one arrested as he tried to leave Australia, British media reported today.

Seven people arrested so far in Great Britain include an Iraqi doctor trained in Baghdad, a Jordanian neurosurgeon, an Indian medic, and a Lebanese man, The Guardian reported today.

It said five of the seven were doctors working and training in the National Health Service, and that all seven were foreign-born nationals.

The neurosurgeon, Mohammed Asha, 26, is currently believed by counter-terrorism investigators to have been the <b>ringleader</b> of the cell, it said.

<b>It's believed Asha and his wife were the man and woman arrested by anti-terror officers who chased down a car on a motorway</b> in north-west England on Saturday.

<b>The hunt for those responsible for the plot spread to Australia yesterday, with the arrest of an Indian-trained doctor living and working on Queensland's Gold Coast.

The 27-year-old hospital registrar was arrested by counter-terrorism police at Brisbane International Airport just before midnight (AEST), after a tip-off from British police.

It's understood the Indian national was headed for India via the Malaysian capital Kuala Lumpur, on a one-way air ticket, but had not resigned from his job at The Gold Coast Hospital.</b>

Prime Minister John Howard said a second person was helping police with their inquiries. Earlier, the Queensland government said the second man was also a doctor at the same hospital.

Both had been recruited from the city of Liverpool, in the north of England, to work in Queensland's understaffed hospitals.

Howard said the government had no information to suggest a terrorist attack on Australia was imminent.

"We have no information suggesting that there is now a greater likelihood of any terrorist incident in Australia than there was late last week," he told reporters.

But he warned Australians not to drop their guard, as the incidents in London and Glasgow demonstrated a terrorist strike remained a possibility.

British authorities say their investigations are developing minute by minute, as they hunt those behind the plot to detonate two car bombs left in central London early on Friday and an attack on Glasgow airport in Scotland on Saturday using a fuel-laden jeep.

Police sources named one of those arrested in Britain as Bilal Abdulla, who qualified as a doctor in Iraq in 2004, and the other as Asha, who qualified in Jordan the same year.

<b>According to the Muslim News, a website that follows the British Muslim community, another of those seized in Britain was also a doctor. It quoted a colleague of the man as saying he had come to Britain from Bangalore in India.</b>

Britain remained on its maximum "critical" threat level today, after police yesterday cordoned off a hospital in Paisley, a town just outside Glasgow, and carried out several controlled detonations.

<b>The hospital, the Royal Alexandra, is where Abdulla worked, staff said, and where he is also believed to be being treated for severe burns after taking part in the attack on Glasgow airport, when his vehicle was turned into a fireball.</b>

Fearing further attacks, police banned cars and other vehicles from directly approaching airports and security measures were stepped up across the country as authorities kept the threat level at "critical", the highest rating.

The series of foiled and actual attacks pose a test for Prime Minister Gordon Brown, a Scot who replaced Tony Blair only last week and who has come under pressure from some quarters to change policy on Iraq and withdraw British troops.

Home Secretary (interior minister) Jacqui Smith said Britain was facing a "serious and sustained threat of terrorism" and urged the public to remain alert.
(Say the right words: "Britain is facing a serious and sustained threat from <b>islam</b>". How hard is that? Until they admit it, things are not going to change.)

"Let us be clear: terrorists are criminals, whose victims come from all walks of life, communities and religious backgrounds," she said.

"Terrorists attack the values that are shared by all law-abiding citizens. It is through our unity that the terrorists will eventually be defeated."

<b>In Amman, Jordan, the father of Asha described his son as a good Muslim,</b> not a fanatic, and expressed incredulity that he could be involved in an al Qaeda-style bomb plot.
(Yes, jehad is part of being a good muslim. See, he's not lying.)

"I am sure Mohammed does not have any links of this nature because his history in Jordan and since he was a kid does not include any kind of activity of this nature," he said.

He said Mohammed and his wife were happy with their life in Britain and had had a son in the country about 18 months ago.

Reuters/AAP/AP<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21...173-948,00.html
<b>Indian doctor held in Qld</b>
July 03, 2007 07:57am
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Sources told NEWS.com.au that the second doctor also worked at the Gold Coast Hospital and had come from the northern English city of Liverpool, the same city as the arrested man.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2007/07/...3351212465.html
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Local suspects linked to UK plots</b>
July 4, 2007

<b>TWO Indian-trained doctors from the Gold Coast Hospital are being questioned by police after British security officers traced a phone call to one of them from a friend allegedly involved in the UK terrorist bomb plot.</b>

Dr Mohammed Haneef, 27, was picked up by members of a joint federal and Queensland police taskforce as he was about to leave Australia to India via Malaysia.

He had a one-way ticket but had not resigned from the hospital.

Dr Haneef had not been charged last night. Federal Police Commissioner Mick Keelty said Dr Haneef "may have done nothing wrong and may at the end of the day be free to go".

Other sources said last night Dr Haneef had hastily purchased a one way-ticket and had not informed his employer he was leaving.

The Australian police acted on information passed to them by British investigators.

A second doctor, believed to be Dr Mohamed Ali, was being interviewed yesterday but police stressed there was no evidence that he was connected to the British investigation.

As many as six of seven suspects arrested in Britain over the car attack on Glasgow Airport and the failed car bomb attacks in London are doctors.

Counter-terrorism officials have confirmed that British officials became interested in Dr Haneef after they arrested neurologist Mohammed Jamil Abdelqader Asha, also 27, in relation to the Glasgow and London attacks.

One account has it that Dr Asha was using the SIM card and internet account of Dr Haneef, who had worked at the same hospital before he left for Australia in September last year.

The Times has also reported that investigators have been able to trace the phone records of many of those arrested in Britain to locate their associates because they were sloppy and left vital numbers stored in their mobiles.

Police seized documents and computer discs from both men's apartments, who live blocks apart in the suburb of Southport. Dr Haneef's car was found in Dr Ali's garage and was being examined yesterday.

Dr Haneef remains in custody and faces lengthy questioning today after federal police used new powers to gain more time to interrogate the Indian national from a federal magistrate.

The Age believes both men were acquaintances in Britain before they arrived on the Gold Coast within a month of each other last year.

The Australian Federal Police successfully sought the right to question Dr Haneef for another 12 hours today without laying charges.

It's the first time the counter- terrorism powers have been used in this way.

Neither man was on any counter-terrorism watch list.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->If he's innocent, he ought to be set free. But one must admit that some of all this is looking pretty suspicious. And what's more, he was a total stranger to the Indian consulate:

http://www.gcbulletin.com.au/article/2007/.../6138_news.html
Gold Coast Bulletin
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Haneef 'a good, humble man'</b>

05Jul07
[...]
(Character reference for Haneef given by family. Not useful as proof of innocence)

Dr Haneef's brother Mohammed Shoaib said the doctor had only planned to visit his family in the Indian city for Bangalore for about a fortnight.

Mr Shoaib said Haneef planned to visit because his newly-born daughter and niece had been ill.

He said the 27-year-old doctor was travelling on a one-way ticket because plane fares were cheaper in India.
(Nearly believed it. But just remembered: what a mighty coincidence, then, that he should be scurrying off homeward via Malaysia so soon after the attacks in the UK, and when the British police traced a phone call from another suspect to him?)

[...]
<b>Indian consul Professor Savrs Daman Singh said the consulate had no previous contact with Dr Haneef until late on Tuesday.

"We do not know his address in India, we do not know his passport number, we do not know his date of birth, there are no details to go on," he said.</b>
(Rather interesting. A real islamoterrorist from India would want to remain unknown even when he got back to India by not giving details of himself to the Indian consulate.)

Dr Haneef was considered <b>'quiet, but brilliant' by family and friends</b> and is now thought to be one of the ringleaders of the Glasgow car-bombing terrorist cell.
(He got in with quota/'affirmative action' - see further down.)

<b>Dr Haneef, and two others of the eight men arrested over the Glasgow Airport attack are from the same state in India -- Karnataka.</b>

Dr Haneef is believed to be a leader of the group, according to sections of the Indian media, which have taken a huge interest in the story.

<b>"Police in Bangalore are also investigating two other Karnataka residents who directly participated in the Glasgow strike," said Praveen Swami and KV Subramanya of The Hindu.</b>
(The Chindu being the psecular communist 'Indian' paper that it is, won't talk about the actual community in question - Karnataka is wholly irrelevant - what about mentioning their religious affiliation?)

"An engineering student who was working towards a doctorate in the United Kingdom has been established to have been the driver of the fuel canister-laden jeep used to execute the attack.

"A Liverpool-based doctor of Karnataka origin who was in the jeep has also been held by police in the United Kingdom."
(Stop it with 'Karnataka'. As if it is something to do with that state. When in reality it has everything to do with Indian muslims. No Karnatakan Hindu was ever involved with this.)

Bangalore is the largest city in Karnataka, one of the four southern states in India, on the western coast. It is sandwiched between Goa and Kerala, two tourist spots highly popular with western visitors.

Dr Haneef is the son of a schoolteacher from Mudigere in the Chikmagalur district of Karnataka and did his pre-university certification course at SDM College at Ujire in neighbouring Dakshina Kannada district.

<b>He then did his medical degree at Rajiv Gandhi Health University's BR Ambedkar Medical College in Bangalore during 1997-2002 as part of an affirmative action program for Muslims</b> and lower castes.
(Worrying thought - is Indian tax payers' money going to islamoterrorism? But the psecularists must and will have quotas, reservations and the like for the poor, oppressed terrorist ideology.)

A senior faculty member of the college told The Hindu Dr Haneef completed his internship in 2003.

"He was polite and quiet and attended classes regularly, but he kept himself away from extra-curricular activities," the professor was quoted as saying.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Husky+Jul 3 2007, 08:05 AM-->QUOTE(Husky @ Jul 3 2007, 08:05 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->[islami ummah that aren't safe would at least learn to be better-behaved considering the consequences. Next to that, many seculars of islami-origin will be safe from persecution by jehadis.


While Germany didn't so much as wince when, somewhat over a decade ago, it sold its Roma population to other countries (and that too, in spite of the fact that regrouped fascists where waiting to gruesomely murder the Roma upon arrival), it now feels all PC and fuzzy-hearted when it[right][snapback]70728[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A small paranteze about the site give by Husky
http://freetruth.50webs.org/A6.htm#RomaToday

1-the Arrow Cross is a nazi formation from...Hungary(not Romania)
2-wasnt any deportation of roma from Germany to Romania.That romanies was imigrants from Romania ,which Germany desperatly trying to send them back.
There are other small errors in that article but is not on the topic.

[Guest]

Honsol, I had also read that 'Arrow Cross' was a fascist group from Hungary not Romania, hence when I posted I only mentioned 'deported to other countries' and 'fascist groups'.
The reason I mentioned the incident was that when I was young, I watched on the news that German police sent Roma packing and the Roma got threats from nazi groups. Could not find the keywords to search online to back up what I'd remembered to have seen - I couldn't even recall the year properly. http://freetruth.50webs.org/A6.htm#RomaToday looked somewhat like it. But I see now that that page itself cites http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/feb97church.htm as source for the information. I might be wrong, but I thought Zmag was a communist site - if so, why are they quoting from there?

Aha, I think I've found something related to what I saw on the news way back when:
http://www.jpr.org.uk/Reports/CS_Reports/P...ain.htm#Germany
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><i>Repatriation</i>
A new policy of forcible return replaced that of integration. In December 1990 the government of Nordrhein-Westfalen withdrew a regulation allowing stateless Roma to settle there, instead offering Macedonia over DM 20 million to resettle Yugoslav Roma near Skopje.(132) On 5 March Germany was the only one of forty-three participants to vote against Resolution 62 of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights, entitled 'Protection of Roma', the German delegation arguing that Roma did not constitute a minority in Germany, that they should not be the subject of positive discrimination and that Germany wished to retain its right to expel Romany refugees.(133) In September 1992 a formal agreement between Germany and Romania, becoming effective in November 1992, stated that all Romanians ineligible for asylum (mostly Roma) would be liable to forcible deportation to Romania. Since then Germany may have repatriated at least 40,000-50,000 Roma. Over DM 30 million were paid to the Romanian government.(134) Some monitoring has occurred of the fate of those forcibly returned. Thousands of Roma immigrants remain in Germany, and many still arrive. Even those -without identity papers are likely to be repatriated. 

By early 1993 no Roma had ever been granted refugee status in Germany. The Federal Office for Recognition of Foreign Refugees stated in January 1993 concerning Roma refugees from Romania: 'As a result of the alien character of the Roma, their stubborn retention of alien traditions, an intensive rejection of Roma as well as deep prejudices have emerged [in Romania]. This is normal. It is also understandable that such feelings are now expressed in a violent manner.' Since persecution of Roma in Romania is not officially regarded as political, no Roma would be eligible for political asylum.(135) 

Germany concluded a re-admission agreement with Poland in May 1993 which will affect many Roma. Moreover, a new refugee law came into effect in 1994, rendering it virtually impossible for any Rom to acquire a residence permit. Roma from Yugoslav territories, rendered stateless following the break- up of Yugoslavia, continued to be forcibly repatriated from Schleswig-Holstein and Baden- Württemberg.(136)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Guest]

Honsol, just so you understand, was not trying to slight Romania, or make it out to be a monstrous nation, or in any way worse in treating Roma than other European countries have been/might still be. A brief glance at those two links
(1) http://www.jpr.org.uk/Reports/CS_Reports.../index.htm
(2) http://freetruth.50webs.org/A6.htm#RomaToday
will easily show how many different European countries have been and continue to mistreat Roma. Spain's abominable genocide of Roma some centuries back is part of history classes, and Slovakia's sterilisation campaign is shown in documentaries around the world, Germany - well, that's well-known too; other countries like Poland and England which I didn't know about are mentioned in the above links.
There's nearly no European country that doesn't/didn't appear to wish the Roma to an early grave. Here's (2):
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In 1980, the Polish government forcibly deported groups of Romanies by boat, after having confiscated any documents which would have allowed their re-entry into that country.81 At this time, the Czechoslovakian government is maintaining a program of compulsory sterilization of Romani women and taking away their children;82 <b>and in 1984, a city councilor for the City of Bradford, England called for the extermination of Romanies</b>.83 Deportation, sterilization and recommended extermination, not forty years ago, but all within the past decade.
From: Uniqueness of the Victims: Gypsies, Jews and the Holocaust by Ian Hancock<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->I don't know Romania personally (beyond liking the music of Enigma which is by Curly M.C., and admiring a Romanian actress who comes in German movies), but common sense tells me that there must be many people there who would not go around tormenting fellow humans.

Since this is not the nazi-era, everyone would know that fascist groups are not representative of any nation at large (excepting ethnic Albanians in Kosovo who seem to be competing for such infamy), hence in pasting those links I was not making any accusations against any one country's people. Fascists are a breed apart. People would know that.


Writing the above doesn't mean I'm hoping for christoislamic Roma moving to India and trying to convert the Hindu populace to christoism/islamism. We have enough of christoislamiterrorism in our country as it is. Their faith in religions that have tormented them makes it very scary indeed. Hindu Roma are welcome, areligious and non-political (non-psecular/non-communist/non-anti-Hindu) Roma are welcome too IMO. But I wish the christo kind (including Wendy's Child Jeffrey Kripal) will keep to christian countries and the islami kind keep to dar-ul-islams, and leave us in peace. We don't want to be 'saved from heathenism'.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->UK TERROR PLOT

<b>Don't stereotype Indians, emotional PM tells UK</b>

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Thursday made a rare, emotional statement on the Indian link to the foiled terror plot in Britain.

Speaking to a gathering of women journalists in the Capital, Manmohan Singh <b>said he could not sleep after he saw the distraught family of detained Indian doctor Mohammad Haneef pleading on television... </b>

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/dont-stereotyp...4143-3.html?xml<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Manmohan Singh certainly had NO difficulties sleeping when hundreds of innocents lives were lost in the Mumbai bomb blasts, or when there were so many gruesome acts of violence against innocent Indian civilians by the islamic jihadis. Yet, he has trouble sleeping at this one incident of mistaken identity.

Manmohan Singh sure knows which side his political bread is buttered. If this isn't blatant hypocrisy, I wonder what is.

And for the record, as if the UK PM, Gordon Brown, cares a hoot about the tearjerking bollywood-style performance by ManMohan Singh. The UK PM is probably laughing his head off, or worse yet, whispering to his aide, with his hand over the mouthpeice, even as ManMohan Singh weeps and wails into the phone, "I always suspected that this Indian had chemical imbalance, that makes him all weepy one minute and cold and rigid the next. Now I know I'm right!"

Yes, Mr. Manmohan Singh, there is such a thing as Male Menopause!

[Bharatvarsh]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->'They asked me to be a Muslim, gave me beef'

Reuters
Posted online: Friday, July 06, 2007 at 1656 hours IST

Shah Alam, Malaysia, July 6: A Malaysian woman on Friday accused Islamic religious police of intimidation and mental torture during her six-month detention for renouncing Islam in favour of the Hindu religion.

"It was a prison. They placed me in a solitary confinement," Massosai Revathi, an ethnic Indian, said a day after she was freed from a state-run Islamic counselling centre.

"Although I served 180 days, I still cannot convert out of Islam," said Revathi, 29. "I wasted my time."

Her case highlighted another strain in the fabric of race and religious relations in multi-ethnic Malaysia. Last month, dozens of people campaigning for freedom of religion held a candlelight vigil to protest against her detention.

In May, the country's best-known Christian convert, Lina Joy, lost a battle in Malaysia's highest court to have the word 'Islam' removed from her identity card. In delivering judgment in that case, the Federal Court's chief justice said the issue of apostasy was related to Islamic law, and civil courts could not intervene.

In practice, sharia courts do not allow Muslims to formally renounce Islam, preferring to send apostates to counselling and, ultimately, fining or jailing them if they refuse to desist.

Such people often end up in legal limbo, unable to register their new religious affiliations or legally marry non-Muslims. Many keep silent about their choice or emigrate.

Revathi was born to an Indian Hindu family, which converted to Islam before she was born. Although given the Muslim name of Siti Fatimah Karim, she said she was raised as a Hindu by her grandmother.

She married a Hindu in 2004 according to Hindu rites and the couple have an 18-month-old daughter.

Revathi was freed on Thursday, a day before the hearing of her husband's application for her release was due to begin. A civil court judge on Friday threw out the application since she had been released.

Outside the court in the city of Shah Alam, 40 km southwest of the Malaysian capital, Revathi said she suffered mental torture while in detention.

"They asked me to be a Muslim and they threatened to send my daughter to a welfare home if I defied them," she said. "They also served me beef, knowing I don't take beef as a Hindu."

A lawyer for the Malacca Islamic Religion Council, which acted against Revathi, denied her charges. "She can claim anything," the lawyer, Tuah Atan, said. "She has been put under the custody of her parents until she is rehabilitated."

http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=89170<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"rehabilitation" here means conversion to the terrorist cult.

[Bharatvarsh]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Muslim-born woman seeks life as Hindu
Staff and agencies
06 July, 2007

By JULIA ZAPPEI, Associated Press Writer 2 hours, 44 minutes ago

SHAH ALAM, Malaysia - A Muslim-born woman who was forced to spend six months in an Islamic rehabilitation center because she wants to live as a Hindu said Friday after her release that she will never return to her original faith.

"Because of their behavior, I loathe Islam even more now," she told reporters. "They say it‘s a school, but it‘s actually a prison."

Malaysia is considered one of the world‘s most relaxed Muslim countries, having enjoyed racial peace for nearly four decades. But it follows a dual justice system. Islamic, Shariah, courts administer the personal affairs of Muslims, while civil courts govern Hindus, Christians, Buddhists and other religious minorities.

The Islamic Religious Department in southern Malacca state detained Revathi, an ethnic Indian, in January and sent her for religious counseling after officials discovered she had married a Hindu man.

Tuah Atan, a lawyer representing the Islamic department, said officials remain hopeful that Revathi might still return to Islam.

Revathi was born to Indian Muslim parents who gave her a Muslim name, Siti Fatimah. She was raised as a Hindu by her grandmother and changed her name in 2001, but her official papers still say she is Muslim.

Islamic officials seized the couple‘s 18-month-old daughter from her Hindu father in March and handed the child to Revathi‘s Muslim mother.

Lim Kit Siang, chairman of the opposition Democratic Action Party, said Friday that moderate Muslims must be concerned by such cases because they could hurt Malaysia‘s image by showing "a narrow and intolerant face of Islam."

http://www.newsone.ca/westfallweeklynews/s...llnews&id=23625<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[arindam]

One of the topics that needs to be discussed thread-bare with examples, is "what is the evidence that Islam in India was spread by the sword" - yes, I know the empirical answer - but, a dscussion with specific historical proof points would result in an eminently archivable and reference-able thread.

[Bharatvarsh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgnncfYRPxk

Check out the video, it's about the issue of Revathi.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->One of the topics that needs to be discussed thread-bare with examples, is "what is the evidence that Islam in India was spread by the sword" - yes, I know the empirical answer - but, a dscussion with specific historical proof points would result in an eminently archivable and reference-able thread. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Here we are discussing
<b>Mughals - How Tyrannic And Oppressive, History of India under Mughals</b>
http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index....topic=1814

[ramana]

<!--QuoteBegin-arindam+Jul 6 2007, 02:45 PM-->QUOTE(arindam @ Jul 6 2007, 02:45 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->One of the topics that needs to be discussed thread-bare with examples, is "what is the evidence that Islam in India was spread by the sword" - yes, I know the empirical answer - but, a dscussion with specific historical proof points would result in an eminently archivable and reference-able thread.
[right][snapback]70886[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Arindam, One needs to delve into the medieval history books and write up papers/books. Sir Jadunath Sarkar etc have written extensively the history of that period.

There is a book by one Mr Chary on Islam in the 13th - 14 century which is very crucial to this topic. Acharya has a copy of the book.

I have been thinking about the early history of political Islam in Middle East and will post my views on that as to how India was able to keep its majority even after centuries of Muslim rule. One mistake that modern historians make is to study India in isolation from the Middle East which is the fountainhead of islamic thought and there was steady influx of soldiers, scholars and artisans from there to India.

[Guest]

Another book: The Sword of the Prophet: A Politically-Incorrect Guide to Islam by Dr. Serge Trifkovic.
So excerpts here: Islam’s Other Victims: India

[arindam]

I'm familiar with some of Jadunath Sarkar's work [mainly from the net] - but the key issue here is to create an archivable hread with snippets of evidence.

Let me explain why - blogs, email chains and e-groups are fast becoming an alternate source of information for Indian youth - they'll at most do a coupe of google searches on issues; probably will not have the time to find and read Sarkar.

So, how do we make this informaton to broad groups of people - a thread on this
forum will help the people who create blogs, post to e-groups and the like...

Without aggregting such information in threads like this, we will not enable the larger community...


<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Jul 6 2007, 09:10 PM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Jul 6 2007, 09:10 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-arindam+Jul 6 2007, 02:45 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(arindam @ Jul 6 2007, 02:45 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->One of the topics that needs to be discussed thread-bare with examples, is "what is the evidence that Islam in India was spread by the sword" - yes, I know the empirical answer - but, a dscussion with specific historical proof points would result in an eminently archivable and reference-able thread.
[right][snapback]70886[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Arindam, One needs to delve into the medieval history books and write up papers/books. Sir Jadunath Sarkar etc have written extensively the history of that period.

There is a book by one Mr Chary on Islam in the 13th - 14 century which is very crucial to this topic. Acharya has a copy of the book.

I have been thinking about the early history of political Islam in Middle East and will post my views on that as to how India was able to keep its majority even after centuries of Muslim rule. One mistake that modern historians make is to study India in isolation from the Middle East which is the fountainhead of islamic thought and there was steady influx of soldiers, scholars and artisans from there to India.
[right][snapback]70889[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[shamu]

<!--QuoteBegin-arindam+Jul 6 2007, 08:15 PM-->QUOTE(arindam @ Jul 6 2007, 08:15 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->One of the topics that needs to be discussed thread-bare with examples, is "what is the evidence that Islam in India was spread by the sword" - yes, I know the empirical answer - but, a dscussion with specific historical proof points would result in an eminently archivable and reference-able thread.
[right][snapback]70886[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Please visit Qutab Minar. What you see there can not be an isolated incident and stands out as a living proof.

What happened to pre-islamic religious structures?

How about mohammed's own attacks? Hudaibiya(?)?

[Guest]

To: Arindam
Bharatvarsh had some time back put up a lot of excerpts from the site persiapackhum (or something) which has translations of iranian islamic writings including their materials on India. Bharatvarsh posted translations of islamics' own book on their history in India. Islamis made lots of mentions of forced conversions and murders and wanting/attempting to rout Hindus who opposed them. I think this stuff may be in the Maratha or Shivaji thread, don't remember.

Next to that, you can also go down to the India section of
http://web.archive.org/web/20050207114949/...ad/subjects.htm
which quotes historians on the conquest of India including islam's destruction of Buddhism (through massacre of Buddhists and conversion).
Perhaps you can look up those historians and quote from their books if you find them? They may have some more information?

<b>ADDED:</b>
History of Jihad - India
(See also for instance History of Jihad - Persia the original was taking too long to load)
Linked to from http://www.historyofjihad.com/sitemap.html - originally posted by another IF member (K.Ram? Viren?), but which I immediately added to my sig since that time...

Then one can also go to voi.org and look for Sita Ram Goel's books on how many temples were destroyed by the faithful followers of the prophet-allah. There's other books at Voi on conversions and islamic history in India, I think.

Also, mass forced conversions/massacres were commonplace in India as they were even in the Zoroastrian homeland of Persia and in some other countries. Of course the scale of genocide in India was much greater because we always had far more people.

Also look up Bernard Lewis' "Race and slavery in islam" or something, on slavery of people in islam. It does make mention of Indians too.

[Guest]

<b>Terrorism's Hook Into Your Inbox
U.K. Case Shows Link Between Online Fraud and Jihadist Networks</b>

By Brian Krebs
http://www.washingtonpost.com Staff Writer
Thursday, July 5, 2007; 2:34 PM

[Bharatvarsh]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Lecturer held for Islam remark
 

Hyderabad, July 13: More than 2,000 students of the St. Ann’s Degree College for Women in Mehdipatnam took out a protest on Friday after a lecturer allegedly made certain remarks against the Holy Quran and in favour of author Salman Rushdie. The students gathered in the college campus and raised slogans against the lecturer demanding an apology from her. They were not ready to withdraw the protest even after she apologised.

More than 100 police personnel were deployed at the college to avoid any untoward incidents. Majlis-e-Ittehadul Muslimeen MLAs, Ahmed Pasha Quadri and Afsar Khan, and TRS MLA H.A. Rehman visited the college to support the students’ agitation and demanded the arrest of the lecturer. She was later arrested by the Asif Nagar police on Friday evening.

The students alleged that J. Prashanti, a political science lecturer of the college, had made the remarks after asking final year students to discuss Salman Rushdie and his writings.  When she spoke in favour of the writer, the students disputed with her. Then the lecturer allegedly made remarks against Islam and Holy Quran. “She repeated this thrice in two days,” an agitating student said on condition of anonymity.

The students maintained that what actually angered them was the lecturer’s comment that their presence in the classroom meant that they had accepted her viewpoint.  Meanwhile, the college management and other lecturers backed Ms Prashanti and said the controversy arose due to misunderstanding. “It was purely misunderstanding,” said the college principal P. Fatima Rani. “I spoke to the lecturer over this and she told me that she did not pass on the remarks intentionally.”

The principal added that the students did not complain to her of the incident. “I got to know of the issue through some of the lecturers on Friday and immediately I called both the students and the lecturer seeking an explanation,” she said. Ms Fatima reiterated that there was no need to take action on Ms Prashanti since she did nothing wrong. Other lecturers also supported her and said that the students and the media were blowing the issue out of proportion.

Under pressure from the students and MIM leaders, police took the lecturer to Asif Nagar police station for questioning and later booked a case against her under section 153A of IPC for promoting enmity between different religious groups.

http://www.deccan.com/home/homedetails.asp<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
let's see what the "freedom of expression" brigade say about this.