Year 2012 -satya/dwapara Yuga

11-03-2007, 02:58 AM

QUOTE(ramana @ Nov 1 2007, 03:53 PM)Who will do the honors?

Viren please help.
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Ramana: Sorry a bit late - see there's already a thread. If you need more posts moved from here, let me know the post numbers. Acharay, Raju, feel free to pitch in.

11-03-2007, 07:45 AM

QUOTE(acharya @ Nov 3 2007, 02:39 AM)Raju Move this post to the other thread Vimana. I will expand that thread to include other discussion too.
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acharya, that post is relevant to both topics. The Admiral is basically saying how future threats can come from unacknowledged sources. This fits in with 2012 scenario.

From post on top of this page, we know how mayan/hindu end of times prophecy can turn true as well considering threat from above sources.

acharya · (This post was last modified: 11-03-2007, 09:39 PM by acharya.)

QUOTENext to the Australian aborigines, the Vedic civilization is perhaps the oldest continuous living tradition in the world. Its extremely ancient doctrines and insights into human spirituality are unsurpassed. We might expect that its cosmology and science of time has been as misunderstood as its true antiquity. In looking closely at Vedic doctrines of time, spiritual growth, calendars, and astronomy, we will see that a central core idea is that of our periodic alignment to the Galactic Center. And, according to these ancient Vedic beliefs, the galactic alignment we are currently experiencing heralds our shift from a millennia-long descent of deepening spiritual darkness to a new era of light and ascending consciousness. "

According to John Major Jenkins, a leading independent researcher of ancient cosmology:

http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Advanced_Concepts.htm

11-03-2007, 06:27 PM

Very important article in light of article posted at top of Page 7. The article has 3 parts, the author is a civil servent in the British Ministry of Defence.

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/SecretWar1.html

More importantly he also talks about 3 atomic explosions conducted by US in the areas surveyed by Admiral Byrd and were earlier made a target of British expeditions whose mandate was 'search & destroy'.

Another factor that comes out in the first part itself is the real secret behind British occupation of Falklands.

11-03-2007, 06:46 PM

QUOTE(ramana @ Nov 2 2007, 11:06 PM)I have something to add. Mrs IG created a mission in mid 1980s for India to be part of Antartica. She funded the setting up of Dakshin Gangotri (DG) station in Antartica and claimed a huge portion based on the fact that India is touched by the ocean in direct line of sight. Immediately the Antartica Treaty organization put all national claims on holdÂ however claims made before the decision are still registered. The DG operation was carried out from DC Embassy as it was urgent. The Indian Institute of Oceanography had a role in that. In mid 90s there use to be a scientist who used to post on soc.culture.india news reports from there. India has new station Maitri as DG now obsolete. Can pursue this in another thread.
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This location the MÃ¼hlig-Hoffmann Mountains mentioned in Part 1 & 3 of the nexusmagazine article is also mentioned in context to India's activities in Antartica. It seems the whole place is riddled with listening posts of various countries who still seem to have lingering suspiscions on whats going on, and thus the area is out of bounds for mango man.

this is the exact quote from part 3 of nexusmagazine article
QUOTEBritain's Neuschwabenland Campaign Revisited
If British forces had indeed destroyed the Nazi outpost that was rumoured to have existed amid the MÃ¼hlig-Hoffmann Mountains, 

http://dod.nic.in/pressbrief.htm
QUOTE3.Â Â Â As per schedule the delegation visited the nearby Russian Base of NOVO to acquaint itself of the scientific activities and other operations being undertaken by the Russian Antarctic Expedition Team. It also spent a night at MV Emerald Sea to have detailed account of the activities and other connected matters from the leader of the 23rd IAE team members and its leader Sri Jayaram.Â As planned the delegation ascertained the existing status of the Indian Antarctic Program (IAP), took stock of the Antarctic Program of Russia, a leading state carrying out its Antarctic program for over five decades. The delegation in general and the head of the delegation in particular had detailed discussion with the leader Sri Rajesh Asthana, deputy leader Sri Javed Baig, Maj. Rajender Sial, in-charge logistics, Maj. BPN Kumaran, Station engineer and other members of the 24th IAE at Maitri. During its stay at Antarctica the delegation visited Muhlig-Hoffmann Mountains, in parts of which the GSI has been carrying out its intensive survey operations. The delegation paidÂ homage to the three GSI scientists and one naval officerÂ who died on 8th January 1990 while carrying out research operations in these mountains.Â This site has been included as a Historical Site named India Point by the 27th Antarctic Treaty Consultative Party Meeting held in CapeÂ Town in 2004. It also visited the site of Dakshin Gangotri, the 1st IA base set up under the leadership of Dr. H.K GuptaÂ Secretary DOD and a member of the delegation, in 1983 in record time.Â The site has been declared as Historical SiteÂ under the Antarctic Treaty.

GSI = Geological Survey of India

**acharya** · 11-03-2007, 10:51 PM

http://dod.nic.in/pressbrief.htm
QUOTE3.Â Â Â As per schedule the delegation visited the nearby Russian Base of NOVO to acquaint itself of the scientific activities and other operations being undertaken by the Russian Antarctic Expedition Team. It also spent a night at MV Emerald Sea to have detailed account of the activities and other connected matters from the leader of the 23rd IAE team members and its leader Sri Jayaram.Â As planned the delegation ascertained the existing status of the Indian Antarctic Program (IAP), took stock of the Antarctic Program of Russia, a leading state carrying out its Antarctic program for over five decades. The delegation in general and the head of the delegation in particular had detailed discussion with the leader Sri Rajesh Asthana, deputy leader Sri Javed Baig, Maj. Rajender Sial, in-charge logistics, Maj. BPN Kumaran, Station engineer and other members of the 24th IAE at Maitri. During its stay at Antarctica the delegation visited Muhlig-Hoffmann Mountains, in parts of which the GSI has been carrying out its intensive survey operations. The delegation paidÂ homage to the three GSI scientists and one naval officerÂ who died on 8th January 1990 while carrying out research operations in these mountains. This site has been included as a Historical Site named India Point by the 27th Antarctic Treaty Consultative Party Meeting held in CapeÂ Town in 2004. It also visited the site of Dakshin Gangotri, the 1st IA base set up under the leadership of Dr. H.K GuptaÂ Secretary DOD and a member of the delegation, in 1983 in record time.Â The site has been declared as Historical SiteÂ under the Antarctic Treaty.

GSI = Geological Survey of India

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There is a movie Alien vs Predator which is about Antartica.
Aliens have a hidden base under the Antartica which gets activated. Humans die mysteriously and Predator comes in kills the Alien.

It is a sci Fi movie but the imagination is used based on some facts. Those facts are not revealed.

11-03-2007, 10:58 PM

Probably it is a diversion to demonify whoever is there.

QUOTEWilhelm Landig's Goetzen gegen Thule identifies the location of this base so accurately that anybody landing on that particular shore probably could find it. Landig says it has been abandoned since about 1960. He also says the 1947 Admiral Byrd Expedition there was to destroy it and that it was unsuccessful. The reason that you can't just identify it via satellite is that it is located in a geothermal fault which runs from near the center of the Antarctic Continent, through Neuschwabenland and then northward to Africa, up the East African Rif Valley and into Israel where it ends as the Dead Sea. It was in this geothermal area, underground, where the alleged base was located. They used geothermal energy which served to cover their heat signatures. Byrd looked for them from the air using a magnatometer. He lost four aircraft by his own account and many more by the account of the Germans. His six month expedition was cut short to six weeks. He left speaking ot El Mecuro Magazine in Chile about defending future attacks from an enemy able to fly form pole to pole.

>>It is a sci Fi movie but the imagination is used based on some facts. Those facts are not revealed.

there is a story of three European adventurers who heard of this legend while drinking at a bar. The U-boot base was built inside an island. A volcanic bubble formed within the island, right under a house owned by a German General named Winter. Secretly, tunneling equipment was brought in and three tunnels dug to connect the sea to the underground volcanic bubble. This bubble was glazed on the inside like glass. U-boat pens were made and a turntable so that U-boats could be spun around and pointed out again. Above the bubble, a stairway was built into the home of General Winter. The three, two Austrians and a Spaniard, found three old U-boats inside after following the tunnel in at low tide. They were all type Vll. They went aboard one and found old maps on the Argentinian coastline. The log indicated they had been in use AFTER THE WAR, until about 1950, with the knowledge (and possible assistance) of the US government!!

These articles are really no secret and if they sound familiar, well, they should. Steven Spielberg stole the idea for his fictional movie Raiders of the Lost Arc. He would never admit that this part is based upon fact.

http://www.villawinter.at.tt/

ramana · 11-04-2007, 01:08 AM

Raj, I recall an old Biggles book about U-Boats in a disused volcanic island with underwater approach. Don't recall the title now. Its so long ago <!--emo& Sad

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' />.

11-04-2007, 11:31 AM

QUOTE(ramana @ Nov 4 2007, 01:08 AM)Raj, I recall an old Biggles book about U-Boats in a disused volcanic island with underwater approach. Don't recall the title now. Its so long ago <!--emo& Sad

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' />.
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ramana, this is the story and it is believed that the island hideout was a midway point for German officers headed out to bases far south, viz SA, Antartic. It is located in Island Fuerteventura which is part of the Canary Islands. To find the Villa Winter in Google Earth, one must note that the location tag of it is located in a totally wrong place. To find the place search for "Cofete" in Googleearth, or just try "Fuerteventura" and scroll down the southwestern coast of it.

<img src='http://www.fuerteventura.uk.com/villawinter.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

QUOTECalled Villa Gustav Winter, it lies hidden from the world nestling between the mountains and the wild Atlantic Ocean on Fuerteventura.
It can only be reached after a hair raising drive along a dirt track in the mountain borders. The sheer isolation of Villa Gustav Winter holds a mystery which has yet to be explained.
This mystery begins with the appearance and position of Villa Gustav Winter itself. It is surrounded by land which eerily has exactly the same shape and proportions of the island of Fuerteventura itself...
And the villa's location within this enclosed replica corresponds geographically to its true position on the island â¦ a mirror of a mirror!
Was this location and shape the result of exact mathematical positioning, a signal to some alien life form or just sheer fluke? The truth will probably never come to light but theories abound.
German-born Gustav Winter arrived on Fuerteventura in the 1930s. He worked for a large company that had just acquired a great expanse of land in the south of the island â the peninsula of Jandia.
Winter became known for his mysterious dark glasses and accompanying black dog and was responsible for building the first port at Morro Jable.
However, it is not for these reasons that he is best remembered. His name will always be connected to the small isolated hamlet of Cofete where he built Villa Gustav Winter - a villa that later gave birth to countless myths.
Originally, the villa was said to have been built to establish agriculture in the region. It was modeled on a villa built in the Black Forest in 1893.
But rumors began spreading after the appearance of armed guards accompanied by large dogs started guarding the walls of what was becoming more of a fortress than a villa.
Anyone trying to get to Villa Gustav Winter had to first identify themselves to the guards who would then call Winter himself. If they were granted permission to enter, they then had to travel along a dirt track road which, according to

urban legend, was built by political prisoners held captive at a concentration camp at Tefia. An airport runway was also built there and put at Gustavâs disposal. Rumors were flamed after accounts from people allowed into the villa described the five rooms in the attic as being completely tiled, of a large kitchen and of vast dark cellars and caves stretching under the villa and into the mountainside. Were the tiles to stop any radio signals being picked up by eavesdroppers?
And why would such an important engineer as Gustav, who held the rank of Colonel and who was at the forefront of an important shipyard in Bordeaux, hide himself in the middle of nowhere to practice farming while his country was at war?
He was a man of considerable importance â at a time when his country needed him most, would he really hide himself away in a fortress in a remote island with its close proximity to the sea and an airport runway? Would he really shelter in a fortress built of solid walls with ample cellars and a kitchen large enough to feed a small army?
Allied ships were frequently attacked by German submarines that surrounded and protected this small island from prying eyes.
Historical accounts now tend to suggest that Villa Gustav Winter acted as a safe house for top escaping Nazis most probably heading to America.
Its isolated location next to the Atlantic and its natural mountain shelter would have been an ideal rendezvous point for Nazi leaders arriving by submarine and seeking a safe haven until they could slip into anonymity after the war.
Another myth that has grown is that Vila Gustav Winter was a halfway house not only providing safe haven but also a hospital where plastic surgeons operated to give their overlords new faces to match their new identities.
In an interview shortly before her death, the widow of Gustav Winter firmly denied the allegations leveled at her late husband over the years.
She denied that the villa had ever had connections to the Nazis or that it was built as a hideaway for Adolf Hitler â she said the infamous villa was built for the simple reason of exploiting agriculture in the area.
So was Villa Gustav Winter meant to be the last bolt hole for Adolf Hitler?
Whatever the answer, the sheer size of Villa Winter, its isolation and the constant guard patrols would tend to suggest that this was never destined to be a family home ringing with the sound of laughter from happy children.

Also quoting Wikipedia: QUOTE"Famous landmarks includes the Villa Winter, not far from Cofete which sits on a mountain slope with a small tower on the left. The villa was first built shortly after the end of the Second World War in 1946. Today, the villa also serves as a restaurant and a hotel."

"Although it is said that the villa was renovated in 1985 and that the mysterious villa was probably built as a restaurant or a hotel it remains in the same state that it has for decades. The fact that it is built on the remotest part of the island with only a dust track leading to it and that the journey from the nearest towm Morro del jable takes about an hour in a four wheel drive vehicle, in reality negates this particular part of the story. The fact that all of the expansive roof space has been constructed with cell like accommodation in the eaves, allowing sleeping space for one or two persons per cell, indicates that it either housed many servants or more likely many troops. The perimeter area still shows signs of barbed wire protection and control points and the downstairs white tiled room spaces are reminicsent of hospital operating theaters. There is clear indication that below the currently lowest accessible levels that there are lower levels still. A small gauge rail track runs from near the house into the mountainside and a mining skip which ran on these rails can clearly be seen outside of the main building. A cemetery exists on the beach several hundred meters from the house. Locals tell us the Winter insisted that all burials from the town of Morro Jable, (more than a full days gruelling hike away) took place there. Recent interest in the cemetery have caused it to be walled off, but by whom I do not know The villa has given rise to many local myths and legends. It sits in grounds that are exactly the same shape and, proportionally, the same size as the island and its position within those grounds match exactly its real position on the island. A freak chance or a complex mathematical calculation by Winter?

Local legends include it being used as a base station for contacting aliens! But probably the most likely explanation for its isolated position and its santitised, hospital-like interior is that it was intended as a last bolt hole for Adolf Hitler and other top Nazis, a refuge to where they could escape and possibly undergo plastic surgery before being shipped to a new life with a new identity in the North or South Americas."

More translated from spanish:

"desde que supe de la existencia de esta casa y me entere de las "leyendas" que existiena a su alrededor, estuve interesado en visitarla. esta semana he estado en fuerteventura (soy de tenerife)y aproveche la ocasion para visitarla, pude habla con un seÃ±or mayor que estaba en la zona, me conto que habia trabajado haciendo la cimentacion de la casa, que fue sobre el aÃ±o 44 aprox. y que la casa tenia varios sotanos, algunos con paredes que sobrepasaban los 1500 cms de espesor, soy arquitecto tecnico, y se que solo un bunker requeriria tales espesores de hormigÃ³n."

Translation: since the moment I knew of the house and got to know the "legends" which exist about it, I was interested in visiting it. This week I was in Fuerteventura (I am from Tenerife) and I used the chance to visit it, could talk with an elder man who was in the place, and he told me he had worked building the basement of the house, around the year 1944 aprox. and that the house had several cellars; some of them with walls with a thickness of more than 1500 cms; I am architect and I know that only a bunker would require such thickness...

11-15-2007, 10:33 AM

Astrolife.com Indiaâs leading astrology site highlights on Mayanâs prediction - End of Lifecycle by Dec 2012
November 09, 2007 Internet & New Media News

(PRLEAP.COM) Mumbai 9th November, 07: Astrolife.com Indiaâs leading astrology site, known for its Astrology, Horoscope and Birth charts, enlightens on the prediction of Mayan calendar - The end of human life cycle by 23rd December, 2012. Astrolife.com reveals the prediction by the Mayan civilization and the literature The Mayans kept extremely detailed astronomical records and they followed the cycles of the planets and stars as they travel around in their orbits. Mayan Civilization â a mesoamerican civilization, which existed in the 10th millennium BC.

According to the Business Head of Astrolife.com Mr. Raj Rao, âMayan people used more than one calendar - not just to keep track of dates but also to lead a life in harmony with the Creation. And we have been told about their most important calendar called Tzolkin (which started as far back as 2114 BC (4000 years ago) suddenly comes to an end on 21st Dec 2012. A global cataclysm is one possibility. On Astrolife.com we have provided this information in detail to all our members who are keen to know about the Mayanâs prediction â.

It is only recently that Meso-American Astrologers, Anthropologists and experts in cuneiform script have been able to reveal the secrets contained in the Mayan literature, most important of them are the Mayan Calendars. There are two calendars that is of interest, one is called the Tzolkin - which was used to forecast the day spiritually, and the Long Count - that was used to measure period over a span of thousands of years. The Tzolkin consists of 260 days divided into 20 Zodiac Signs (as against our 12 zodiac signs) and 13 Galactic Energies or Tones from the Sun. The 20 Zodiac Signs have a symbol but the Galactic Tones are simply referred by a number 1 to 13.

We are currently in the 4th cycle recorded by the Mayan. It started in 3114B.C. and lasts for 5126 years until 2012. With the end of the 4th cycle comes, the beginning of the 5th cycle. The Mayan believe that in the 5th cycle the ancient wisdom of the Maya will be rediscovered by the world and it will be a new dawn for mankind. Of all the dates put forth by prophets and cultures for a doomsday, this is one with an authentic almost supernatural feel to it.

About Astolife.com
Astrolife.com, an astrology portal from People Group offers the most exhaustive services in the entire gamut of the occult sciences. Astrolife is one of the leading Indian astrology site with maximum page views and members. It has tied up with leading astrologers worldwide including Marjorie Orr and Bejan Daruwala. Astrolife.com offers services in, Vedic Astrology, Astrology, Vastu, Feng Shui, Numerology, Tarot, I Ching, Bio Rhythm, Birth chart, and Horoscope, much more. And are currently powering astrology services for Shaadi.com, Shaadi Point and Fropper.com.

http://www.prleap.com/pr/102497/

**shamu** · 11-15-2007, 12:37 PM

I don't understand the importance of this Mayan revelation for one reason.

They themselves disappeared from earth many centuries ago, and did they predict that? Previous post says that they wanted to live in harmoney with creation. And they did not last long, so what were they trying to achieve?

I will give more credits to Hindu Rishis than to Mayans, because Hinduism still survives inspite of so many attacks!!!

Husky · (This post was last modified: 11-18-2007, 01:29 PM by Husky.)

QUOTE(ashyam @ Nov 15 2007, 12:37 PM)I don't understand the importance of this Mayan revelation for one reason.

They themselves disappeared from earth many centuries ago, and did they predict that? Previous post says that they wanted to live in harmoney with creation. And they did not last long, so what were they trying to achieve?

I will give more credits to Hindu Rishis than to Mayans, because Hinduism still survives inspite of so many attacks!!!
[right][snapback]75261[/snapback][/right]Mayans are still here.

Don't know about 2012 and such. But I recall being told something that I thought might be tangentially relevant.
Some great-grand uncle of my dad was a Jyoshiar and apparently very good at it. But my dad always says how that ancestor could make accurate astrological predictions for total strangers' futures but did not foresee <a very drastic event concerning his daughter>. So perhaps this prediction stuff doesn't work for matters close to home?
I'm merely offering that maybe that might be the case with the Mayans too: that they were unable to see the sunset on their own civilisation as it was then, but nevertheless made predictions (accurate or otherwise, only time will tell) pertaining to the world or other people? Of course, none of this is anything concrete and I might just as well be wrong.

QUOTEMayans, because Hinduism still survives inspite of so many attacks!!!- Americas were settled. Christos always (try to) wipe out the inconvertibles when they plan to settle somewhere.
- India was colonised for the purposes of draining the land of its vast resources (like the numerous diamond mines). For which all they needed was to make Hindus permanently docile to christotyranny, which they tried via their brainwashing (which in their doublespeak they've dubbed 'education'). Of course, genocide in India also happened, but not to the same extent (percentage-wise) as in the Americas. It's because the christos decided to make their home in that 'new' continent for which they would not brook the existence of the heathens of 'Hamite lineage'.
In both settling and resource-based colonisation by christoterrorism there's exploitation of the real citizens as well (indentured services/bonded labour).

In any case, the native Americans of both continents did not lie down and play dead. It turns out that there's been 500 years of (indigenous) American resistance against the christian tyranny that emanated from foreign shores and fastened onto the Americas. ( http://www.dickshovel.com/500.html )
Western education, being christian-based, expressly doesn't teach students about this continuous resistance against the parasite of christoterrorism. But we can no longer afford to remain in ignorance of others' long-standing fight against christoislamism, as in most cases their struggles are rather like our own in many respects.
Just because a people have not been successful against the Terminator of christoislamiterrorism, doesn't mean their accomplishments can be dismissed off-hand. An ideology that is winning says nothing about the truth of it - it may just be cheating through disgusting underhand ways. And this is indeed the case here: the winners in the last 1.5+millennia have been terrorist ideologies that have brought forth little in terms of civilisation but have achieved an avalanche of destruction everywhere. They certainly can't be relied upon for any of their claims, in spite of their present 'upper hand'.

QUOTEI will give more credits to Hindu Rishis than to MayansAnd I do too. But in my case, I must allow that that's possibly because I know more about our own Rishis than I do about Mayan revelations and such. (And perhaps some partiality on my side, which if so, I can't help.)

ADDED:
The above brought something to my mind again. Notice how Hindus always list Hinduism, (Buddhism,) christianity, islam when they talk about "religion"? We tend to know little to nothing about other religions. It's not our fault of course. Most people of other ancient natural religions don't know about Hinduism either, unless they found out about it from Hindus. Once again, this is because of christian education: trying to keep all other ways of life completely obscured (or if that's impossible, christo-education presents them as terrible anti-human religions which no one would then want to learn about anyway). It's especially single-minded in doing this to living (and reviving) religions. That way, when christians do finally kill all natural religions, they can pretend ours all never existed or were horrid otherwise.
It's in our best interests to learn about other natural religions and educate our community (Dharmics, or at least Hindus) - not only about their existence but all about these other traditions. That way, Hindus won't be conditioned to christoislamism (for instance, we will stop speaking in terms of monopolytheism or "invisible gawd" or "idolatry") and we will stop making our minds attuned to their poison. Christianism failed so spectacularly in winning voluntary converts in early centuries precisely because its very nonsense and inhumanity was thoroughly alien. Now - like bad sleazy tv programming increases our toleration of sleaziness on tv (e.g. 'reality' shows) - our unfortunate exposure to unnatural christoislami thought patterns has made us tolerant of its ideas and therefore susceptible/more amenable to conversion.

11-17-2007, 07:20 PM

Mayans are still around. It is just their civilization that has fallen from glory. People of Guatemala, Mexico etc are of Mayan origin.

And they predicted their own downfall as well, I had put that up in a link a few pages back.

Maya Asura was a great astrologer and architect, and it has been found that there are striking similarities between temples of South India and those of Mexico, Guatemala and surrounding areas. I am guessing that most Naga origin temples/KOVILS in deep south India etc have Maya Asura's influence. But I guess being an Asura, his timetable was not given due relevance in Indian context as time progressed. In India Vishwakarma took more prominence than Maya Asura's work and calculations over the course of time. That is likely where the Hindu and Mayan ways seperated.

Husky · (This post was last modified: 11-18-2007, 02:55 PM by Husky.)

QUOTE(Raju @ Nov 17 2007, 07:20 PM)I am guessing that most Naga origin temples/KOVILS in deep south India etc have Maya Asura's influence.[right][snapback]75327[/snapback][/right]Guessing (or wild speculation) is not required on matters that are well-known.

The Kovils - which is the Thamizh name for Hindu temples - in TN were built by various Thamizh dynasties, and their construction has been according to Hindu scriptures called the Agama Shastras which are very precise in defining how a Hindu temple (and the Vigrahams in it) should be constructed. (From links below, I have learnt that North Indian temples are built as per Agama Scriptures also.)

If you will speculate, please confine it to your own city/town/village in India. I'll probably be too unable (though not unwilling) to comment or protest against that.

A book on Hindu Temples - it also talks about the science behind their construction:
http://www.integralbooks.com/powerintemples.htm
http://www.integralbooks.com/powesam1.htm

ADDED:
More, from elsewhere:
http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/...nity_Myth.shtml
QUOTENot all Hindus are familiar with the category of scripture called the Agamas. The Agamas were part of an oral tradition of unknown antiquity which some experts consider as ancient as the earliest Vedas. The Agamas are the primary source and authority for temple construction and ceremonies.
http://www.bharatrekhainamerica.com/history.htm
QUOTEConstruction of a Temple is determined by Ancient Scriptures called âAgama Shastrasâ. The âAgama Shastrasâ laid down the architectural traditions and conventions behind the construction of Temples. They tell us the best ways to identify the ideal location, the ambient atmosphere, the construction pattern with explanation, the worship procedures and so on. For instance, we understand that mountains, proximity to waterways, rivers, water springs and lakes are some of the ideal locations for constructing a Temple.

Examples of these are the famous Hindu Temples on the Himalayas and the Temple in Varanasi on the bank of the Ganges river.

The âAgama Shastrasâ say that the Temple structure is a mini cosmos.
[...]At the same link, it also says North Indian style temples are called "Nagara".
QUOTENagara (North Indian) structure was developed in the 5th century and generally used as a basis for Temple construction in Northern India â from the Himalayas to the Deccan.Its meaning does not appear to be related to "Naga" in any of the senses of Indian Naga: Nagas the snake-beings such as in Mahabharata (which may be connected to Naga as in Nagapambu/Naga serpents); or Naga as the name of the remnants of the Dharmic community in NE. But perhaps you still want to speculate along some 'Naga-Mayan' line and find that the Nagara (North Indian) temples therefore better fit your guessing? (I'm not encouraging this, by the way.)

11-18-2007, 04:22 PM

QUOTEGuessing (or wild speculation) is not required on matters that are well-known.

Alright then I will differ with you sharply, if that is how you prefer. Naga civilization spread out right upto central asia, so I am pretty sure there are North Indian temples built upon same principles.

There is even a town in deep south called 'Nagar' Kovil. And 'Sarpa' Kaavu abound in deep south of India. The 'Nairs' of Kerala are believed to belong to be Naga vamshajar. The entire Nair history is replete with references to Naga, even their ornaments are related to Naga symbols.

'Naga Sundari' mare // beautiful nair women

So I take a firm stand here. No budging for anyone.

11-18-2007, 04:26 PM

Again related to Raju's #213:
See also the above post (#214), where I took serious exception to totally unnecessary "guesses" from your end on the origin of Thamizh temple construction/architecture.

I ran a search on some combination like Agama Hindu Temple Construction Mayan, and the only page that I found which seemed to know what it was talking about when it came to Hindu temples - and which seemed to talk about some of the things you appear to have alluded to (but no mention of the "Thamizh Kovils are Maya Asura style") - was the following.

http://www.bnaiyer.com/studies/agamas-01.html
Title: Ancient Hindu Scriptures
A G A M A S - SCIENCE AND ART OF TEMPLE CONSTRUCTION
POORNA PRAGNA - Srinivasaprasad Kidambi

The entire excerpt is good to read for different reasons, but I've coloured the relevant portions blue.
QUOTEAncient cultures for centuries all across the continents built huge structures for places of worship, observatories, burial places. The size and layout was so complex and perfect to indicate that the basis of such constructions must be sound scientific principles of most advanced branches of engineering sciences. The need for such huge places also must have been dictated by more pressing and practical concerns in public policy, agriculture and public health rather than just to show the pomp of a king. Many of these structures all over the world are now available in ruins or completely destroyed excepting many of the structures in India and across the East Asian Buddhist countries like Burma, China and Japan. This successful destruction was perpetuated from 4th century onwards by various plethoras of groups of religious zealots, hate groups and several nomadic tribes as a tool to propagate their faiths and religious beliefs and intimidate the society following existing cultures and traditions. In the modern day when such atrocious acts cannot be perpetuated, the some societies are using multinational corporations, rebellious armies, Religious fundamentalists and some hate groups to destroy these structures in the name of land reforms, modernization of agriculture and industrialization.
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If nothing works, they achieve their goal by organizing and creating terrorist and separatist groups . Recently a spate of these structures are being discovered in Middle East, South America, North America, Europe, India and Australia on land and under sea. These newly discovered sites remarkably resemble in design, content and construction, with existing Oriental (Asian, Indian) structures. In the absence of any knowledge about these structures in India or in Asia or deliberately omitting them from even mentioning as existing, or by deliberately not encouraging the authoritative texts in this field of architecture dealing with such constructions from being translated in to western languages, the western academia is throwing lot of new theories of speculative nature. Their bias towards Judeo- Christian origin and development of civilization is so missionary that they even want to destroy these texts by encouraging third world governments to not to support the small press that helps to publish the texts that deal with the scientific principles of such constructions.
The above does not appear to imply any appriopriation nor directionality. (Which would be unnecessary.) That is, it is conceivable that various ancient cultures across the world developed reasoning/sciences for constructing sacred temples independently, and that these sciences led to the some kind of similarities in structures because they were directed toward the same consistent understanding of God.

Raju, here's the only mention of Mayans on the above page - and it also mentions the name of divine architect Vishwakarma:
QUOTEMata means opinion. It is the rendering or approach towards a particular Agama Principle, theory by practicing Shilpi, at a particular geographical location or after a particular astronomical event or after a particular lapse of time (usually more than 432,000 year cycles). These rendering are made only to make the agama theory workable after a major astronimical or geological event in the process of evolution. This is like a corollary to the main theory or an exception under certain given circumstances. Maya Mata (practiced in Americas, north and south, in native Indian cultures and by Mayans, Azetics, Tolemics erc), Viswakarma Mata (as practiced in Africa, Europe) are such two important texts.This last bit seems a bit far-out to me. Where's the evidence that it is indeed "Vishwakarma Mata" being practised in Africa and Europe and that Americas practise the equally Hindu-sounding "Maya Mata" (<- what is that - is that the Maya Asura you referred to above?) Where's the support that it is indeed Hindu Agama principles they are following? (For instance, have they got Hindu texts? Did they historically declare that they had Hindu texts?)
I've noticed that the local indigenous religion where I live constructs temples/shrines/sacred community spaces based on some principles and science of their own. But they're not based on Hindu Agamas, but their own. Just like the reasoning behind Greek temple construction/design was Greek.

It doesn't seem that any appropriation is intended on that page - rather it looks like it sees a greater interconnection between ancient religious cultures (that is, on the occasions where these other cultures are mentioned) - but I can't see that this world-wide temple construction is based on Hindu scriptures/is of Hindu origin the world over. There's certainly no evidence given for that.

Of course, none of this changes anything I said in the previous post: I still dispute your guess on the origin of TN's Kovils construction design.

On another matter, that link ( http://www.bnaiyer.com/studies/agamas-01.html )
mentions communist China's interest in occupying Tibet and their declaration to use translated Samskritam documents for their space programme. (I think I recall this matter being discussed somewhere on this thread?)
QUOTEAll Darshanas belonging to Upa Vedas are either unavailable, burnt, lost, [or given away to many universities across USA, Germany, Canada by Indian immigrants whose ancestors preserved them from centuries of oppression] or still preserved either in Nepal or in Tibet in monastries where they were taken when Nalanda and Taxila Universities were burned by the aliens. The apex text Shilpa Sutras supposed to be written by Maharishi Viswakarma or Sthapathya Sutras is not available.

Though Agama philosophy is referred to within each of these Vedas, the general principles of all elements of Agamas are found primarily within the Atharva Veda and in its branches or declensions, and codified in Shilpa sutras. Expanding upon the general outline contained in Atharva Veda are the Shilpa Sutras by Rishi Viswakarma. In addition to the apex Sutra Literature, there are Vedic sources which can be divided in to six tiers: 1)Upanishads, 2)Samhithas, 3) Tantras 4) Agamas and 5) Pradipikaas, Karikas, Matas 6) Vyakhyanas (Special renderings or commentaries).

(Given as intra-text 'foot'note Smile

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There is now evidence available to prove that the Chinese invasion of Tibet is partly motivated by the fact that they want to posses the ancient texts preserved. And infact there is evidence that they send some of these manuscripts to Chandigarh University to translate. Dr. Ruth Renya translated them and sent them back to both Chinese and to Indian scientists stating that the manuscripts contained detailed descriptions regarding building interstellar space ships. Few years latter Chinese announced that they are including parts of the process detailed in the texts in their space missions. Anti Gravity Hand Book, pp 130-135,Compiled by D. Hatcher Childress, Network/Adventures Unlimited Press., Stelle, Illinois 60919. (See the Appendix for photocopy of the page 130)

acharya · (This post was last modified: 11-19-2007, 06:58 AM by acharya.)

the link between Mayan and Hindu temples was produced by architect Dr V. Ganapati Sthapati. Plz search the links provided on page 1 or 2, it is a comprehensive link. He is the most prominent sthapati's alive today.

Please move these posts to the Maya thread.

Please post in appropriate threads.

THis is very critical now. I will start cleaning this thread. This thread is very important

11-18-2007, 04:44 PM

One Hundred Tamils of the 20th Century

Ganapati Sthapati

Following his profitable conquest of Karnataka, Kerala and northern Sri Lanka, the Tamil King Rajaraja Chola found himself with a considerable budget surplus. With vast tracts of fertile farmland already under year-round irrigation, he decided to build the largest Siva temple in the worldhttp://www.tamilnation.org/culture/architecture/temple.htm, Brihadisvara, at Thanjavur (Tanjore in modern Tamil Nadu state), a stunning masterpiece of stonecraft engineering. The temple, now on the United Nations World Heritage List, was crowned in the king's vision. He capped the 216-foot main sanctum with a single stone weighing 86 tons and set in place by elephants' nudging it up a gentle sand ramp starting five miles away. The great sthapati (architect and sculptor) Kunjara Mallan Raja Raja Perunthachan was commissioned for the work.

That's a story that Dr. Vaidyanathan Ganapati Sthapati, 72, loves to hear, for he is a lineal descendent of that same Perunthachan of a thousand years ago. The great man's story reminds Ganapati Sthapati today of the tradition he is commissioned by birth to uphold. and of the indomitable spirit of his caste, the silpis, lords and and masters of South India's hard and heavy granite.

Though trained in stonecraft as a boy by his father and uncle, Ganapati Sthapati initially embarked on a career teaching mathematics. But, as the great poet Valluvar said, "What destiny calls yours will not depart." In 1957 Ganapati Sthapati joined the Tamil Nadu government temple board and began overseeing temple designs and construction.

In 1961 he took over as principal of the government College of Architecture and Sculpture, Mamallapuram, which his father and other sthapatis founded just four years earlier to issue degrees in affiliation with the University of Madras. For 27 years, until retiring in 1988, Ganapati Sthapati meticulously trained three generations of temple architects, sculptors and carvers. He taught them, too, the profound mystical side of the silpi tradition, how to create not just sculptures, but the very body of God. During his tenure, he oversaw the construction of dozens of temples, the carving of thousands of sculptures and even the construction of a few secular buildings, such as the library and administrative offices of the Tamil University in Tanjore.

Retirement for Sthapati hardly meant extra leisure. Rather than rest, he launched a private practice and was commissioned to build temples not oddly in India, but everywhere Hindus had settled in the past few decades. He has completed temples in America, England, Singapore, Malaysia, Fiji, Sri Lanka and Canada. Accomplished artist, sculptor, designer and project manager that he is, Ganapati Sthapati also succeeded at a broader and more meaningful goal: to establish India's ancient construction arts as an important and useful field of knowledge in the 21st century. In the process, he has evaluated each aspect of the ancient art in terms of modern methods.

The silpis, for example, use simple iron chisels made and maintained by onsite blacksmiths. Sthapati experimented with various metals to replace these iron tools, but ultimately found none an improvement over the traditional, cheap and easily created iron ones. As an alternate to breaking out stones with hand-methods, he tried blasting them lose with dynamite. But stones so quarried, he discovered, "lost their tone," and were useless for sculpting.

Noticing the trend toward simpler and simpler sculptures, Sthapati brought back clever and delicate demonstrations of the stone carver's art, such as the remarkable stone bell on a stone chain, with a stone clapperâall carved from a single rock.

Perhaps closest to Sthapati's heart has been exploring the philosophical, theoretical and historical traditions of stone carving. It is a field of knowledge that encompasses all dimensions of architecture, from sculpture design to town planning. In the process, he has generated renewed interest in the Vastu Shastras, the scriptures of this art, which he is having translated into English from the their original Sanskrit or ancient Tamil. Intrigued by the possible relationship between Maya, the Godly architect in Hindu tradition, and the Mayan people of South and Central America, he traveled throughout that region visiting ancient monuments and meeting with modern Mayan representatives. Repeatedly he was astounded by similarities between Hindu construction design and that of the Mayans, right down to the use of the same measurements and proportions. No explanation has been offered as to how this occurred, as the two peoples were never known to have been in Contact.

Throughout his life, Sthapati has worked to revitalise an ancient art imperiled by technology's usurpation of the hand-crafted way of life and its deeply spiritual and aesthetic principles."

V.Ganapati Sthapati, Vastu Vedic Research Foundation, Plot No.546, First Avenue, Vettuvankeni, Enjambakkam Village, Chennai 600 048, Tmail Nadu, India email: vastuved@MD3.vsni.net.in

Husky · (This post was last modified: 11-18-2007, 08:12 PM by Husky.)

QUOTE(Raju @ Nov 18 2007, 04:22 PM)There is even a town in deep south called 'Nagar' Kovil. And 'Sarpa' Kaavu abound in deep south of India.[right][snapback]75345[/snapback][/right]Nagarkoil is a place, I've been there. And so is Nagapatnam, for instance. But it refers to Nagadevas, Nagapambu.
I can tell you that "Naga" in the Sarpam/Pambu sense is a common word in Thamizh. Names like Nagarcoil and Nagapattinam do not prove anything more than that we do Snake worship as we've always done.
Many of our Kovils contain/have adjoining sacred Naga Deva areas (Naga in the meaning of Pambu/Sarpam - as I already said) where us visitors perform our rituals around the sacred carvings in our worship of Naga Divinities. In general, we also show respect to Pambu puttu (sp?) - 'snake hills'.
Worship of Nagapambu is not confined to us, I think. (Seeing Snakes as divinity is a practise in the rest of India too, IIRC.) This is part of Hindu tradition - definitely in Thamizh Nadu and bordering regions.

See image: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Naga_Cult_Kanchipuram.jpg
Wikipedia image of the kind of sacred Naga temple grounds that I mean.
Captioned "Naga-worship next to the Sri Vaigunda Perumal Temple in Kanchipuram"
They patronisingly refer to it as "Naga Cult Kanchipuram" and "Very interesting iconographic mixture with Vaishnavite symbolism" and all. But Naga Deva worship is mainstream Hinduism (leastways, where I come from). And Adishesha/Sheshanaga was always associated with Mahavishnu.

QUOTEThe 'Nairs' of Kerala are believed to belong to be Naga vamshajar. The entire Nair history is replete with references to Naga, even their ornaments are related to Naga symbols.
'Naga Sundari' mare // beautiful nair womenIf they are called Naga, this does not prove anything about their relation to the Mayans, or even about Nairs and the Nagas of the NE. Are the Nairs genetically related to the Indian Nagas of the NE - over and above their genetic kinship with other Indians, that is? Or, if the genetics thereof is as yet unknown, is their (historic/native) language - which I so far thought was Malayalam in the case of Nairs - more closely related to that of the NE population who are called Nagas?
With "Vamshajar" do you mean "Vamsham" like Ramar is of Raghuvamsam (Solar dynasty) while the Pandavas and/or Yadavas (or someone from the MB, I think) are Lunar dynasty?
Then do the Nagas of the NE also declare they are Naga Vamsham like the Nairs? That would then be something that indicates kinship. Though even if that were so, I suppose it's still possible for any community to have the name of "Naga" without it automatically connecting them with other communities/dynasties called Naga in other parts of India. Just like many communities may take on variations of the name "Singham": Hindu Singh from C India (Rajput?), Sikh Singh, SL Sinha and yet not necessarily be connected.

But in any case, no connection has yet been shown between the Nagapambu/-deva places in our temples with the Mayans.
- I'm not even convinced of a connection between any of the Indian meanings of "Naga" with Mayans.
- I've read some modern theories straining to connect the Nagas of NE with the Nagapambu worship in the South. (We have some millennia of tradition concerning our Naga Devas - the Pambu. Complete evidence of them being some human community is required to overturn the long-standing understanding we have of our beliefs, customs and practises.)
This 'theory' of our Naga Pambu worship being related to Nagas of the NE (let alone Mayans) has only surfaced in more recent times. Theories based on similarities of words and names remain just that until people show hard evidence.

At least 4 things need to be proven:
(1) that Naga pambu and related traditions (sacredness of puttu, and the like) are connected to Nagas of NE
(2) that Nairs are connected to Nagas of NE
(3) that the beings called Nagas in Mahabharatam (Uloopi and her kind) are connected to Nagas of NE
(According to Thamizh tradition, Uloopi is said to have governed a place in TN, near what's a temple now http://www.hindubooks.org/temples/tamilnad...koil/page13.htm
- but that's related to (2) again: what does it have to do with the Nagas of the NE? Also, doesn't MB describe Uloopi's people as not human and not looking entirely human - weren't they snake or something from the waist down?) So how is it the MB Nagas would magically match up with a rather human community of the same name? And if so, is this the DIT: us "Dravidians" now "drove the Nagas up to the NE" - all while we still worship "them"? <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' />
It feels more likely that the Nairs might recognise an affiliation with the Naga Devas or Uloopi's Nagas - in fact, I always thought these last two might be the same (at least in TN, since our state is at the coast of the ocean and Uloopi's kind of Nagas were described as great water-snake people who live in the water, isn't it?).
(4) that Nagas of NE are connected to Mayans. (Or that any of the other Nagas mentioned in (1) to (3) are connected to Mayans.)

QUOTEIntrigued by the possible relationship between Maya, the Godly architect in Hindu tradition, and the Mayan people of South and Central America, he traveled throughout that region visiting ancient monuments and meeting with modern Mayan representatives. Repeatedly he was astounded by similarities between Hindu construction design and that of the Mayans, right down to the use of the same measurements and proportions. No explanation has been offered as to how this occurred, as the two peoples were never known to have been in Contact.Hinduwisdom noted several deep similarities between our two cultures (as well as some strained bits in there). There could well be some connection or ancient relations. But not knowing what that is, no point theorising about the different references to "Nagas" as pointing to one-and-the-same-thing, just yet. (It doesn't take much for guessing games to grow out of hand. Lots of old-generation Hindus also started accepting the AIT after continuous exposure to it, and then wrote on about it. Was it G. Tilak who wrote about some oryans "from the Arctic"? Besides, Dr Sthapati in the above text has not declared anything more than being astounded by similarities - he certainly doesn't appear to be theorising on their cause; although he's obviously aware of/"intrigued" by a possible relationship with Mayans, as it says.)

But there needs to be hard evidence (like genetics) to support this ever-expanding theory of "Mayans are NE-Nagas are the Nairs"; and that they are somehow related to the Naga Pambu we worship and are connected to Thamizh temple construction via the Hindu character of architect Maya.
Maya is a very common name in Hinduism without needing to refer to Mayans at all (and, separately, without his architecture being connected to Nagas from the NE).

I never liked word-based guessing games. Less so those centred around two-syllable words.

I have more questions. Which Kovils are the "Naga origin Kovils" you referred to in your post 213:
QUOTEI am guessing that most Naga origin temples/KOVILS in deep south India etc have Maya Asura's influence.How do you know they are "Naga origin": do you mean they were built by Nairs or others who were of Nagavamsham?
Or do you merely mean they are dedicated to Nagadevas and 'therefore' they are connected to Nagas from NE and 'therefore' connected to Mayans?

11-18-2007, 08:48 PM

Husky you are confusing yourself by bringing in NE Nagas. Keep them away from this discussion for time being.

About Naga and Mayan connection, there is a tribe in Guatemala, who are one of the three important Mayan founder tribes who mentioned that their ancestors were Nagas who travelled from a place in the East which was 100 days by boat PLZ SEARCH THE LINK THAT CONTAINS THE QUOTE, IT IS IN PREVIOUS PAGES. Again this is given as a link in Hinduwisdom site and in other places. This was again repeated during the Mayan-Hindu conference in Guatemala organized by a few genuine souls. This is also linked in this thread in previous pages.

We have a user i.d. on India Forum who goes by the name of 'Sengottuvan', now that is a Chera name. And the Cheras ruled Kerala and the very name of Kerala was derived from Chera. Nagarkoil or 'Nagar' Kovil was ancient capital of the Chera empire or so I have I heard. Secondly Nair's belong to the Chera empire. Now the Chera if you know, is a type of snake in South India. And Chera is that tamil version of sanskrit Sarpa.

Like the Nair of Kerala there is a caste in Tamil Nadu called Nadar ... that is another variation of the term Nagar. And Nadar's are mainly based around .. where else.. Nagar 'Kovil'. These are castes who were under Chera influence.

Now coming to the Nagas of NE, they are could be an eastern offshoot of the same Naga empire and were influenced by Naga culture. Even ancient CHINA was an outpost of Naga civilization, the most venerable of their ancient symbols of ancient Chinese was the snake. That is also why Buddhism found it easy to penetrate China and Far East, because shared Naga culture already gave them an established base with their shared heritage with Indic civilization. This shared heritage with India is what the Communist Revolution in China has sought to destroy.

Ganapati Sthapati is not talking of any vague details and connection here, he is talking of very minute and detailed similarities in temple architecture.

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