Gouki, i appreciate your frankness in bringing up this subject, but i must totally disagree with you. Your concern for the plight of the Palestininas is touching but would ring more true if you showed equal or greater concern for the 400,000 indians in the kashmir Valley and the Hindu who has been wiped out in apakistan and is being wiped out in Bangladesh as we speak The fundamental assumptions you make about the world and israel are quite different from the ones that i make about Israel. Let me tell you the situation as i see it.
1.As an Indian i have no enmity towards israel. israel has never attacked India. Israelis do not commit terrorist acts against india. They do not fund madrassahs to teach hatred against the Hindu. They do not burn Indian babies and women in kerosene and then claim they were karsevaks and that they deserved to die. They do not denigrate my religion and call me a kafir or infidel. On the contrary Israel has been one of the main countries that has always been helpful to india right from the beginning in 1950, despite the fact that India has been distinctly cool towards israel till the mid 1990s.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Muslims don't want to take over the world<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe , maybe not, but their behavior as a religious class of people does not give cause for comfort to the rest of the world. The entire Islamic world was silent for the most part when the Taliban destroyed the Bamiyan Buddha statues. Those statues were a reminder to the Ummah that Afghanistan was once populated extensively aby a rich and thriving Buddhist/Hindu culture and so the statues had to go to remove the last vestiges of Dar ul Harb so that it remains a pure Dar ul Islam like its neighbor pakistan. For the most part the Islamic world has acquiesced in this act with a wink and a nod and the perpetrators of this heinous act roam free with not even an attempt to catch them and bring them to justice even though the current government of Afghanistan is supposedly against the Taliban. This monolithic silence is deafening to the ear and reinforces the impression that when it comes to matters such as bigotry there is little difference between the sophisticated muslim of India and his more rustic cousin in Saudi Arabia. Thisis not to say that there no thoughtful Muslims in India who can think for themselves, but for the most part they remain so petrified with fear of the Mullahs that they dare not speak up and express their opinion.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Terrorists DO NOT represent the Islamic community, they are a small minority of nutcases<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->.
So you say . i agree that all Muslims are not terrorists, but for the most part almost every terrorist in the world today is a Muslim. As for being a small minority, the actual numbers of people who take part as jihadis maybe small (how small nobody knows for sure, could run easily intoo the tens of thousands)but these 'nutcases' are well financed by rich Saudi Arabia and militarily powerful Pakistan. Pakistan is a premier example of a narco-terorist state. it is run by terorrorists and thugs disguised as Generals. Its army of cowards does not even bury their own dead while claiming the soldiers do not even belong to Pakistan. This is a state that practices mutilation against the soldiers of its adversary as a policy intended to strike terror into their hearts . If this is a civilized state, then surely i am the Pope.
Furthermore in every instance , the jihadi believes that he is doing what he is doing (mostly murder of children and women) because it is sanctioned by their holy texts and primariy by the Koran.If these people really are believed to be not representative of islam then how do you explain the widespread adulation for our dear old osama bin laden . Remember they burned Buses in Bangalore in support of the actions of Osama against the Americans .
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Muslims don't have one central authority where battle plans are drawn out<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->.
Whether this is true or not i cannot say. But there is significant power in the axis nations of pakistan, and Saudi Arabia. The Kingdom of the House of Saud provides the financing and Pakistan provides what it has in most abundance - mujaheedin and jihadis. You say the Arabs are our friends. These are strange friends indeed that treat indians like dirt in their country and who invariably side with pakistan regardless of the large scale massacres that the Pakis practiced in B'Desh prior to its indeependence. No i have yet to meet a Saudi who is respectful and courteous towards Indians in general. For the most part they are arrogant, medieval, bigoted , religious fundamentalists who think with their genitals.
I have more to say on the matter, but it is already late in the night and leave the rest of my thoughts for another day.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Jordanians don't like the Palestinians<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First why we Indians should care about Israel and Palestine relationship. Why we should support Paliestine?
Israel never attacked or sent any invaders to India.
Infact Israel and India both are victim of Islamic terrorism.
Arab nations never supported India, it was Congress appeasing Indian Muslims and to get oil by appeasing Arabs.
The day Saudi Arabia allow my religious freedom in Arabia, i will say we had good relationship. Till then oil and Congress at its best.
All terrorist, sucide bombers, jihadis, mass murders are from That religion in this world. I can't ignore fact and reality. I will be stupid if I close my eyes.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->but basing your opinion on Islam on the actions of small percentage of nuts is quite illogical and frankly,<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Frankly, when these medivial people behead people whether civilian in Iraq or Indian Army soliders in Kashmir or civilian in Kashmir, they complete killing by riciting Koran and rest of ummah keep their mouth shut. When 2000 muslim burnt alive women and children in Godhra, muslims only recall Gujarat riot and forget trigger. It is sad truth but fact, it is monolythic religion which don't know how to live with other religion. Killing Kuffir and jihad is their religious call. It is a fact. One can't ignore.
Indian Muslim Organisation honor people with Tippu Sultan award, how sick it is, Tippu, mass murders of Hindus of India.
Rest of discussion on Islam is moved to Islam and reform thread
Gouki, Welcome to IF. the welcome is a couple of days late....but anyway........
I have a specific question for you. When you say we should dump Israel becuase they did this/that to the palestenian people......what I wanna know is WHY?
Why should WE care more for the palestinians than the Israelis? for what? what's in it for us?
I do not know the exact history of Israel, like who conquered what, when, where, how n' that sorta stuff in the last 50/60 years..........but the way I know it, if you go back to the 6th century.......there were no palestenians as they exist today. U get the drift??
So please tell me more about why we should/not support Israel, from an Indian muslims POV. Since the majority of Indians are Hindus and have no quarrel with Jews/Israel for any reason whatsoever........why should the majority Hindus follow what Indian muslims think is right for the whole nation ?
PS. Please keep this discussion about Israel only. None of that 'sati' stuff in this thead, please. Just pure POVs n' WHYs?
@ krishna
Your questions are valid and I shall answer them to the best of my ability.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I have a specific question for you. When you say we should dump Israel becuase they did this/that to the palestenian people......what I wanna know is WHY?
Why should WE care more for the palestinians than the Israelis? for what? what's in it for us?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Appart from moral reasons there are other factors tied in with geopolitics and economic concerns. By supporting Palestine we can boost our relations with the Arab world. This means we could get cheaper oil, and India as a developing nation REQUIRES cheap industrial inputs. Furthuremore, there is a sort of polarisation going on in this conflict. Europe and China support Palestine whereas the US primarily supports Israel. Instead of isolating ourselves with the US, we may as well sign up with Europe and China. I have a feeling in the long run it will pay of. As American hegomony over world oil supply increases (they already have Iraq and Afganistan), Chinese and European industries will be severely threatened. I believe that there is a possibility of armed conflict here. If India signs on with the US and Israel, in the next 40 years, our relations with China and Europe will worsen to a terrible extent.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I do not know the exact history of Israel, like who conquered what, when, where, how n' that sorta stuff in the last 50/60 years..........but the way I know it, if you go back to the 6th century.......there were no palestenians as they exist today. U get the drift??<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Arabs have been living in Palestine since the 6th century when the Muslim Calliph Omar siezed the territory in a bloodless battle from the Christians. Jewish scripture states that the Jews are God's chosen people and have rights over the land of Palestine. In 1948 groups of well armed Jewish millitants drove out 800,000 Palestinians from their land and annexed half of the land that was to become an Arab state (the UN had partitioned the land 50/50 for Arabs and Jews. The Jews took 50% of the land that was alloted to the Arabs in 1948, (see Noam Chomsky "Fatefull Triangle" and Dr.Norman Finklestein "Image and reality")
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->why should the majority Hindus follow what Indian muslims think is right for the whole nation ?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't about Islam and this isn't about Muslims, lets get that straight. Even if I was a non Muslim, I'd still support Palestine becasue I support Justice and I am against ethnic cleansing. In the words of Dr.Finklestein (who is Jewish btw): "Most people think I am a supporter of Palestine, I am not. I am merely a supporter of Justice. "
Well, I hope that helps Krishna. If you need to know anything else, just ask <!--emo&  --><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
PS, thanks for the welcome <!--emo& --><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Gouki+Jul 23 2004, 03:19 AM-->QUOTE(Gouki @ Jul 23 2004, 03:19 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> Appart from moral reasons there are other factors tied in with geopolitics and economic concerns. By supporting Palestine we can boost our relations with the Arab world. This means we could get cheaper oil, and India as a developing nation REQUIRES cheap industrial inputs. Furthuremore, there is a sort of polarisation going on in this conflict. Europe and China support Palestine whereas the US primarily supports Israel. Instead of isolating ourselves with the US, we may as well sign up with Europe and China. I have a feeling in the long run it will pay of. As American hegomony over world oil supply increases (they already have Iraq and Afganistan), Chinese and European industries will be severely threatened. I believe that there is a possibility of armed conflict here. If India signs on with the US and Israel, in the next 40 years, our relations with China and Europe will worsen to a terrible extent. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lets look at history. We have supported the palestinians for the last 50+ years. What did we get in return? A silence from the islamic world on our issue with lotaLand?
Regarding China and Europe being on the side of Palestine, and then taking on US for the palestinian cause........i don't see it happening. I mean why would Europe and China take on US for that tiny piece of land? what's there to gain for these two groups.......what I see happening is that Europe & China joining the non-muslim world in taking on the islamic world with the goal of completely destrying islam or reform it to such an extent that the difference is as much as there is between a B&W and a color TV.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->This isn't about Islam and this isn't about Muslims, lets get that straight. Even if I was a non Muslim, I'd still support Palestine becasue I support Justice and I am against ethnic cleansing. In the words of Dr.Finklestein (who is Jewish btw): "Most people think I am a supporter of Palestine, I am not. I am merely a supporter of Justice. "<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No offence to you, but the word 'justice' doesn't sound right coming from a muslim whose religion's basic tenets deny justice, equal respect, to non-muslims. I know you would disagree with this......but lets just agree to disagree on this.
The whole Israel-palestinian conflict is about islam. Keeping everything aside, India's interest lies in friendship with Israel. Israel is the only country who stood by us during our need (remember Kargil war - where were all these palestininas/arbas?).........n' you can bet your life.....no way in hell would we turn our back on Israel.
N' if you taking about oil........the day the Arab world says <b>No oil for India</b> meaning complete collapse for India.............trust me, there is many things we can do to make sure they don't get to repeat that line.
Now some questions:
Does this tell you something that mostly muslims support the palestinians? Do you see that there might just be a tiny thread called islam that ties all this things together?
Why is it that Indian muslims falling head over heels in supporting palestine while not one indian muslim ever stood up for the rights of there own fellow country men (Pandits) when they were kicked out of their own homes by their co-religionists?
<b>Say this whole Israel-Palestine issue gets out of hand and becomes a clash of civilization (WW-III,) a clash between the muslim world and the non-muslim world. My question is: On whose side Indian muslims gonna be........On India's side or against India?</b>
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Lets look at history. We have supported the palestinians for the last 50+ years. What did we get in return? A silence from the islamic world on our issue with lotaLand?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
India shares some very warm ties with the Arab world, which also did not protest when Hindu nationalists commited some unspeakable atrocities against Indian Muslims during the Gujrat riots that shocked the international community. This silence definately made the BJP very happy I'm sure.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Regarding China and Europe being on the side of Palestine, and then taking on US for the palestinian cause........i don't see it happening. I mean why would Europe and China take on US for that tiny piece of land? what's there to gain for these two groups.......<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh, I see you misunderstood what I've said. Israel is effectively a US client state whose purpose is to keep arab nationalism down and to eventually colonise the middle east for US oil interests. This war isn't fought for religion, it is being fought by people for oil using religion (and many other things) as a pretext. As US control over oil producing nations grows, there will come a point that the US may actually be able to manipulate the global supply of oil. You can clearly see that such power will enable them to shut down the economy of any nation. You can clearly see how Europe's and China's economies will be threatened. You can thus see that this conflict for oil interests could spark world war 3.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->N' if you taking about oil........the day the Arab world says No oil for India meaning complete collapse for India.............trust me, there is many things we can do to make sure they don't get to repeat that line.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm curious, like what?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Does this tell you something that mostly muslims support the palestinians? Do you see that there might just be a tiny thread called islam that ties all this things together?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And do you know that most of Israel's true support comes from the Christian right and Jewish lobbies in the US? So what? Islam isn't just the only religion involved here, open your eyes and learn to see beyond your petty prejudice. Furthurmore the Euros and the Chinese support the Palestinians hoping for long term economic gain. I believe their motives are realistic as I've described above.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Why is it that Indian muslims falling head over heels in supporting palestine while not one indian muslim ever stood up for the rights of there own fellow country men (Pandits) when they were kicked out of their own homes by their co-religionists?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you are reffering to the creation of Pakistan and the expulsion of Hindus from that territory, I share your anger. I view Pakistan the same way I view Israel: A minority that usurped the land of the majority. Israel and Pakistan should never have been created.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->No offence to you, but the word 'justice' doesn't sound right coming from a muslim whose religion's basic tenets deny justice, equal respect, to non-muslims. I know you would disagree with this......but lets just agree to disagree on this.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yipeee, more racist bullshit. Ah well, I'm getting used to it as I go. Anyways, to the point. What do you actually know about the religion of Islam appart from watching watching Hindutva propoganda and too much TV? Have you read any Islamic literature? Have you read the Quran? Have you read the Hadith? I'm guessing no in all 3 cases. And you know what? I've read about half of the Ramayan and parts of the mahabharat. Funny eh? I try and understand your religion in good faith while you lack the same decency towards mine. Oh well, what can you do?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->My question is: On whose side Indian muslims gonna be........On India's side or against India?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not the one to blindly follow my government. That's what living in a democracy is all about. Thank you for suspecting my loyalty tho, you make me feel so comfortable in my own home.
Gouki,
Answer my few question-
Who destroyed World trade centre?
Who burnt 58 women and Children in Godhra,Gujarat?
What is the meaning of Hindutava?
Did Islamic invaders buthured any HIndu town or destroyed any Hindu Temple?
Do you think Kashmir is a example of ethnic cleasning in mordern time?
Gouki,
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->India shares some very warm ties with the Arab world, which also did not protest when Hindu nationalists commited some unspeakable atrocities against Indian Muslims during the Gujrat riots that shocked the international community. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Every second week we see Paki sunni's murdering shias and we don't hear a wimp from muslims anywhere in the world. That too in the mosques!!! In Sudan groups of arab muslims called Janjaweed are razing mosques to ground and burning Quran. Any outrage in arab community? I'll give more examples should you care. Let's have arabs and other muslim nations take care of their them, we have plenty local issues to address.
You ought to re-read the Tom Friedman's article which *you* posted in past 2 days before you comment on Hindus and Muslims in India.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Have you read any Islamic literature? Have you read the Quran? Have you read the Hadith? I'm guessing no in all 3 cases. And you know what? I've read about half of the Ramayan and parts of the mahabharat. Funny eh?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here we go again.... I've love Ramayana but what about.... I read Vedas but you Hindus are ..... I have know Brhamin girls in Saudi but............
Krishna saar, are you seeing a pattern here?
Now that the demographic alteration of J & K is almost complete, <b>most of those getting killed in Kashmir are Indian Muslims</b>. I'm surprised another Indian muslim around here can't see this. Bottom line, let India worry about Indian Muslims who are being killed in Kashmir. Rest of the muslims around the globe can come later. How big a deal is it to understand. How many Hindus are around here crying for the rights of Hindus in Bangladesh or Fiji?
India followed (now defunct) NAM stragtegy for half a century and refused to have formal dipolmatic ties with Israel. Was changed in 90s(?). Today most arab and muslim nations have diplomatic ties with Israel. Even Pakis were contemplating it last year. So I don't understand as to why any Indian Muslim should object to India having warm relation with Israel.
As far as Israel being a client state of US, check the amount of trade US does with China or for that matter China does with Israel. Same with Europe. Get the numbers and you'll see beyond the rhetoric that you are spreading around here.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Every second week we see Paki sunni's murdering shias and we don't hear a wimp from muslims anywhere in the world. That too in the mosques!!! In Sudan groups of arab muslims called Janjaweed are razing mosques to ground and burning Quran. Any outrage in arab community? I'll give more examples should you care. Let's have arabs and other muslim nations take care of their them, we have plenty local issues to address.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree so far. You've also proved my point that Islam isn't a monolythic religion.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Now that the demographic alteration of J & K is almost complete, most of those getting killed in Kashmir are Indian Muslims. I'm surprised another Indian muslim around here can't see this.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know about it.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Bottom line, let India worry about Indian Muslims who are being killed in Kashmir. Rest of the muslims around the globe can come later. How big a deal is it to understand.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not a big deal at all. I agree with you again.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Today most arab and muslim nations have diplomatic ties with Israel. Even Pakis were contemplating it last year. So I don't understand as to why any Indian Muslim should object to India having warm relation with Israel.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
long term issues. Did you not read my last post?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->As far as Israel being a client state of US, check the amount of trade US does with China or for that matter China does with Israel. Same with Europe. Get the numbers and you'll see beyond the rhetoric that you are spreading around here.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
China is dealing with them becasue they need bulk up their economy and armed forces. China is still considered the number one threat to the US by American officials.
Good that we agree on most issues and have put the religious issues aside in other thread, let's start discussing here as to how India as a nation (not hindu india or muslim india or jew india) should deal with both Israel and Palestian.
Please list the pros and cons of India having friendly (or hostile) relation with respect to either Israel and Palestian and we can take it from there.
And if you carefully read my posts Sudhir, you will see that I support Palestine not for religious reasons, but for long term geopolical reasons.
Gouki,
You started of with India should move away from Israel. Morality of the nations and those of individuals are two different things. Something which even your favorite author Chomsky acknowledges.
On your oil issues, India does have favorable and cordial relations with almost all arab nations. India did not support war in Iraq and aren't sending troops there. India has had relationship with every arab nations for over 50+ years.
Only recently India's been cozying up to Israel. Again it's based on our defence and economic needs. There's also some joint declaration made last year between India+USA+Israel on security issues which might benefit India.
Even on the latest fence issue, you'll see that India is conveniently playing coy here as it has it's own issues.
So what's the issue? India's buddy, buddy with both sides. I'm glad those MEA officers and diplomats etc are keeping India's future in mind while dealing with that region rather than some false emotions or rhetoric.
Forget morality then, for argument sake. Our security needs can easily be met by Europe. We don't need Israel. In the long run allying ourselves with a nation that has shown the international commuity nothing but contempt for UN law is not in our interests. Eventually the US will ask us to choose between the Arabs and Israel and the US itself. If we do, then our relations with Europe and China will hit an all time low since the latter 2 are quite aware of the US plan to colonise the middle east, thru with spreading its hegemony over the world will be a relitively elementary matter.
Gouki,
<!--QuoteBegin-Gouki+Jul 24 2004, 02:25 AM-->QUOTE(Gouki @ Jul 24 2004, 02:25 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> Eventually the US will ask us to choose between the Arabs and Israel and the US itself. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, we are not Pakistan for US to issue such ultimatums. BTW, these days even Pakis don't listen to US ultimatums despite the fact they owe it's existence to them.
Would recommend you read 'Clash of Civilization' by Samuel Huntington.
China and Europe are not competing with US.
Europe economy depends upon US. If today US stop buying products from China that will be end of China.
Europe economy is not dependent on China. Volume is very low. European Union satisfies its internal requirements. Europeans don't prefer cheap China product because of high standard of quality and environment code.
For business US is buyer and for India it is better to have business and economical relationship with US.
European always back off to fulfill requirements on issues of environment, nuclear. They are not reliable partner.
So, for stable and continuous defense requirement India need Israel.
Arab can only offer oil till it last.
The arabs are funding the pakistani jihad and many arabs have been killed in kashmir
In kashmir the Indian army has killed muslims from every Ummah country
Without arab support, pakistan will be bankrupt
The saudis give free oil to pakistan and also aid of $3 billion a year to pakistan
How many jews have done terrorism against India ?
The only good Rabid Dog is a DEAD one, destroy TSP Army.
Nuclear nightmare -- Israel has threatened attack if Pakistan does not denuke, and we cannot remain silent any longer
23 July 2004: Soon after Israel bombed Iraqâs Osirak reactor, it asked India for landing permission or refueling facility for its warplanes to blow up Pakistanâs Kahuta nuclear laboratory, the only active or known Pakistani atomic installation in the early-Eighties. While normally a hawk against Pakistan, Indira Gandhi, who was then in power, refused permission. To this day, it is not very clear why she said no.
It may be that the Soviet Union had invaded Afghanistan, she had not condemned it, and, therefore, gotten on the wrong side of the United States, which set up the mujahideen against the Soviets with Pakistan as a âfrontlineâ ally. While Israel was the USâs long-term strategic ally, she may not have wished to take chances with its bombing Kahuta, because America would take it as impeding the war effort against the Soviet Union. Sorting out Israel would come later, if at all, but the US could turn viciously against India, more vicious that in Nixonâs time during the Bangladesh War, as Pakistan would goad it to extreme action.
What that action could be is again unclear, because it couldnât be war. The US couldnât fool around then with a war with India because Israel had bombed Kahuta from an Indian base. Still, contrary to her nature, Mrs Gandhi fought shy, not giving Israel the permission. Maybe she was consolidating herself domestically, after a gap of Janata rule, and some kind of precedent had been set by the Janata government under Morarji Desai. As we know now, Indian intelligence had warned that Pakistan was rapidly weaponising, and both Morarji and his foreign minister, A.B.Vajpayee, were against building a deterrent as counter. That deterrent was finally in place in 1988. Perhaps Mrs Gandhi was not entirely sure how an India-assisted Israeli attack on Kahuta would pan out. Maybe she was convinced that the attack wouldnât stop Pakistan but determine it further to build a deterrent against India, as eventually happened.
What is the relevance of twenty-year-old events now? Because in secret talks with Pakistan over the last three months (Intelligence, âIsrael warns strike against Pak N-assets,â 22 July 2004), Israel has threatened to strike at Pakistanâs nuclear assets, convinced that Pakistan is proliferating apace through A.Q.Khanâs nuclear blackmarket. No one is buying the Pakistani plea that Khan, the so-called âFather of the Pak Bomb,â has been defanged, well and truly locked up, and his blackmarket, at least the Pakistan end of it, smashed. The Japanese, one of Pakistanâs largest donors, and very touchy about proliferation issues, demanded and got Khanâs interrogation report, but seeing parts of it excerpted in the Pakistani press have come to believe it to be faked up.
The Israeli intelligence is surer that Khan and his nuclear network survive on. Diplomats privy to the secret Israeli-Pakistani talks, but refusing to give details, say Israel dreads that Pakistani nuclear materials may move to Iran, whose late Ayatollah Khomeini gave a fatwa for the obliteration of Israel. When moderate civilian governments have been in power in Iran, a hands-off policy towards Israel has been practiced, but in longer rules of hardline clerics, as now, under Ali Khamenei, hostilities have been revisited with the Jewish state. While diplomats wonât say what would provoke Pakistan to arm Iran with its nuclear arsenal, given the instability in their own bilateral relations, Israel has assumed that as fact, and threatened Pakistan with retaliation.
Striking at the heart of Pakistanâs nuclear assets wonât be as easy or successful as it would have been in the early-Eighties, when Pakistan had not weaponised, and Kahuta was its principal nuclear facility. Now, Pakistan is fully weaponised, its nuclear warheads and missiles dispersed to war-ready locations, but Israel wants to send a tough message with a strike, and Pakistan evidently fears enough of it to want to sue for peace. An air strike is not the only option, Pakistan is in dread of Israeli intelligence sabotage.
Either Israel or Pakistan or both approached the United States to deter the other, and while America has played blind to the real truths of the A.Q.Khan network, Israel is not letting it easy. During the US deputy secretary of state, Richard Armitageâs visit to Pakistan, General Parvez Musharraf pointedly asked for the loan or sale of US nuclear submarines so that Pakistan could wind up its land-based nuclear forces (Intelligence, Pak asks US for nuclear submarines,â 20 July 2004). Musharraf said a sea-based deterrent was securer, which it is, but since this also implied a security gap in Pakistanâs land-based forces, Armitage asked if these were well secured, and the generalissimo naturally said yes.
But over three days, as Reuters reported the day before, Pakistani and American officials have met in the US to determine the security of Pakistanâs nuclear programme. In the course of Armitageâs Pakistan visit, diplomats also said Pakistan was under pressure to sign a maintainability agreement with the US, whereby Pakistan would give full or partial custody of its nuclear weapons to the US. Since 9/ 11, this denouement has been predicted, with side suggestions that Musharraf has also asked the Chinese to safekeep his weapons in case of a war with India. But this time, there is an edge of desperation, the desperation on Pakistanâs side, because Israel is a nasty enemy to make, although Musharraf is playing for time, as from his suggestion to Armitage â harebrained as it would seem â to give him nuclear submarines.
This magazine cannot say how much India is privy to these desperate and menacing Pakistan-US-Israel parleys. If it is privy, it is certainly playing no role, none that is noticeable, at any rate. This country has practised considerable self-deception about Pakistanâs nuclear programme, right since the time Morarji Desai and Vajpayee said no to weaponising in 1979 (although the cabinet committee on security overruled them), followed by Mrs Gandhiâs nyet to Israel.
When Pakistan went overtly nuclear after the six Chagai tests in May 1998, it was the considered opinion of key Indian defence analysts that Pakistanâs bombs were Americaâs problem, not Indiaâs. Since America and the other four P-5 powers were committed to non-proliferation (barring China, perhaps), it was their problem to contain Pakistan, and that India, by that twisted logic, would ultimately benefits from such containment.
Soon, we knew that Pakistanâs arsenals were a menace to us more than to the P-5, because using the nuclear overhang, Pakistan increased the terrorist violence in Jammu and Kashmir, and made bold to strike in Kargil, less than a year after the Pokhran explosions. Not content, Pakistan turned to nuclear blackmail, saying that if the J and K dispute was not resolved, it could escalate to war and a horrible nuclear confrontation. This scenario came very close to reality in January 2002 and mid-2002 when India mobilised troops completely to the Pakistan border in retaliation for the Pakistani terrorist attack on Houses of Parliament.
In the subsequent cooling off, Pakistan stopped the nuclear blackmail, and India became more studiedly indifferent to its weapons, as though they were in faraway Latin America or in Mars. So indifferent did we choose to be that the worst disclosures of A.Q.Khanâs proliferation elicited not a worthwhile comment from the Indian side. It was as if A.Q.Khanâs proliferation was of no concern to us, although, privately, we were terrified as hell, as evidenced by all the intelligence-sharing with the US on the North-Korean axis of Khanâs nuclear blackmarket.
In a sense, Israel has exploded into the open the dangers of Pakistani proliferation, and it calls for some Indian response. Pakistanâs insecure nuclear programme is not only a nightmare for America, Israel and all non-rouge states but India as well. We cannot turn a blind eye to our neighbourâs misdoing, because it threatens our security most. Since a peace process is on with Pakistan, our response has to be cool but firm, and it makes eminent good sense to secretly engage with the US and Israel on this. Without risking its nuclear deterrent, which is primarily aimed at China (Commentary, âDealing with China,â 21 July 2004), India should contribute to the US-Israeli effort to denuke Pakistan. As an MNNA ally of the US, Pakistan has nothing to fear from India anymore. Its nuclear weapons are redundant for its security. On the other hand, its arsenals have become a nightmare for the world.
07-24-2004, 10:14 PM
(This post was last modified: 07-24-2004, 11:17 PM by muddur.)
1: When we deal with Israel we don't consider our relationship with Palesteinis.
2: India has their own problem with PAKISTAN and Paki sponsored Islamic Jihadi terrorism. Israel can help us deal with them in many ways. So we are not encouraging Israel to go against against palesteinis.
3: For India, our problems first. Kashmiris and Hindu's plight in our own subcontinent will be dealt first. Until then we have no time to look into Palesteinis problems. Palestein have never supported India on Kashmir. I think except for Saddam, no Arab nation has done it. Our personal senti relationship should not play a role in real politik. If we had to support Palesteinis then they have to support India against Pakistan. This has never happened.
4: About Arab friends keeping quiet about Gujarat. Normally Arabs don't get their hands dirty. They use stooges like Pakistan against India. They still fund Paki terrorists and madrasa's which teach religious intolerence against other religion people.
5: In geo politics, always our interests first and not MORAL grounds. Don't talk about moral grounds, until ARABS strongly condemn Pakistani attocracy against Kashmiris and Hindu's in Pakistan and BD. Remember NO Arab nation has condemned Pakistan against India. They might be only neutral, in public, but secretly they have always helped Pakistan against India with $$$.
6: After 50 + years of our relationship with Arab nations India didn't get any drop of OIL free. But Indian enemies got it for free, and getting it even today.
7: Indians should remember that after Palestein, Arabs terrorists are coming to Kashmir, India. If you think that the Islamic invaders will stop after pallestein issue getting resolved, then you are living in a fools paradise.
8: The more Israel becomes powerful and able to counter Arab nations by itself, regardless of teh US better it is for India. Let the Arabs live engaged in that region forever. I hope Arabs will never get a chance to resolve Palestein issue in their favour, ever. I only care what is good for India, not Palesteinis.
9: Israelis have not done any harm to India, where as Indians have, by voting against them in the UNO. Still they woould like to work with India. That is real politik. We should learn. Israeli or Indians have nothing against each other. Neither our religion is an enemy of each other. Israel has its own enemies to take care of, and India has its own problems with the same group of people, Islamic Jihadis. We can co operate to weaken them.
10: For OIL India need not depend on the Arab OIL for ever. We do have alternate source. like IRAN, IRAQ, Russia and Ex-Russo nations in the caspian region. Arabs can not deny OIL to India, bcoz we are going to be a very BIG market. Arabs are loosers if they don't sell OIL to India, not the other way around. So STOP the crap talking about, they can stop selling OIL to India. They can't do that, bcoz they will be the loosers not Indians. We can co operate with US, I see no problem with that even if they hold on to Iraq and even the Saudi one day. To be frank, I wish they could do that <!--emo& --><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> better than the terrorist culture and the Jihadi haegemony spreading around the world.
07-24-2004, 10:19 PM
(This post was last modified: 07-24-2004, 10:24 PM by muddur.)
<!--QuoteBegin-Gouki+Jul 24 2004, 02:25 AM-->QUOTE(Gouki @ Jul 24 2004, 02:25 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> Forget morality then, for argument sake. Our security needs can easily be met by Europe. We don't need Israel. In the long run allying ourselves with a nation that has shown the international commuity nothing but contempt for UN law is not in our interests. Eventually the US will ask us to choose between the Arabs and Israel and the US itself. If we do, then our relations with Europe and China will hit an all time low since the latter 2 are quite aware of the US plan to colonise the middle east, thru with spreading its hegemony over the world will be a relitively elementary matter. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Morality should play its role only when you are talking to another Indian, internal issues, not in geo politics. As long as the issue is not about Indians, forget morality.
EU has its own concerns. Except the French and the Russians, no one sells India any arms of anything of significance. But then, French are expensive and Russian one's are slowly getting outdated. Israel can provide India things that EU or Russians can not sell to India.
Remember while we were at war, the Swedes even stopped selling shells for Bofors. our memories are short. You can not rely on one source only to be blackmailed. They can't decide when India can buy arms. EU is not reliable, mainly becoz they depend on Unkil's approval. We don't want to deal with stooges.
One thing Israel has done is to go to any level to protect its own interests. I see nothing wrong in it.
Our relationship with Arabs is strategically only around OIL, and OIL will not last for ever. So in the long run, Arabs can't help Indians if they are not helping us now or in the past.
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