Ancient Indian History

08-04-2008, 01:00 AM

Though Hemu was the last Hindu King of Delhi, Marathas were the de facto rulers of Delhi in the late 18th century. In fact they used to provide security to the Mughal emperor at that time. Shah Alam was the name of Mughal emperor.

08-06-2008, 05:15 PM

'India should be proud of its ancient rock art'
August 6th, 2008 - 9:29 am ICT by IANS

By Neena Bhandari

Sydney, Aug 6 (IANS) Indian rock art needs more recognition globally and the country itself has to realise it is a repository of much more than the Indus Valley and Mughal periods, says an Australian expert. "Indian art is at least 200,000 years old, which is an educated guess and it could be much more. This is of great cultural significance to India, and to the world," rock art expert Robert Bednarik told IANS.

He is the convener, president and editor of the International Federation of Rock Art Organisations (IFRAO).

"It is time India asserted itself and took pride in the enormous history of the Lower Palaeolithic culture, which has now been proved to be among the oldest in the world, rivalling Africa, southwestern Europe and eastern Asia."

"While Africa may be the cradle of the hominid evolution, southern Asia is more likely to be the main theatre of initial development of modern human cognition, self-awareness and technological competence," says Bednarik.

He collaborates with the National Museum of Man in Bhopal and the Indira Gandhi National Centre for the Arts in New Delhi.

The Early Indian Petroglyphs (EIP) Project is a joint venture by the Rock Art Society of India (RASI) led by Giriraj Kumar and the Australian Rock Art Research Association (AURA) led by Bednarik under the aegis of IFRAO.

The project is the first to attempt scientific dating of Indian rock art as well as to provide a comprehensive chronological framework for the Palaeolithic periods and reveals how advanced people were in Lower Palaeolithic times, using art as a means of communication and expression.

The Bhimbetka complex of rock shelters was first discovered by V.S. Wakankar near Bhopal in 1957 and declared a World Heritage Site by Unesco in July 2003.

The EIP project has demonstrated that currently the oldest known art in the world is in central India.

Certain archaic art traditions - the Auditorium Cave at Bhimbetka near Bhopal, Daraki-Chattan cave near Bhanpura in Madhya Pradesh and Bajanibhat, a rock shelter near Kotputli in Rajasthan - are several times as old as the oldest previously dated rock art, that of the Upper Palaeolithic of France, dated to up to about 32,000 years BP in Chauvet Cave.

(BP stands for 'Before present'. 'Present', in this context, refers to 1950, the introduction of carbon dating and the beginning of nuclear contamination in carbon dating.)

"Indians probably don't realise the significance of these ancient paintings. They need to understand what it means in terms of national identity like the French, who have the importance of art ingrained in their psyche, and preserve it," Bednarik said.

Bednarik called on the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) to establish a special section dealing specifically with prehistoric rock art and with the Palaeolithic period.

"ASI has been focused on the Indus Valley and Mughal periods, but there has to be an understanding in decision-making circles that India has much more that that."

The EIP Project, which has fostered, in-depth and long-term collaboration between Indian and Australian experts, enjoys the backing and collaboration of several research laboratories and scholars in both countries, besides substantial support from the (ASI, the Indian Council of Historical Research and the Australia-India Council in Canberra.

Bednarik feels it's time for India to move away from its British-centric, colonial model of archaeology to develop its own particular flavour and approach.

"One way of doing this is by teaching rock art science as a specialised course in universities," he said.

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world-...t_10080408.html

Bodhi · (This post was last modified: 08-19-2008, 01:42 AM by Bodhi.)

QUOTEAlas, Hindus keep on trying to confirm all the negative stereotypes
about themselves, i.c. their lack of historical sense. Here, it is
pretended that since eternity, Sanskrit has had a word Yavana meaning
foreigner. No, first it had no such word. then it heard of Greek
Ionians, or Yona in Prakrit, then sanskritizing this to Yavana. then
when proper Greeks disappeared from the horizon, it came to mean any
foreigner coming from the West. Moreover, this unhistorical
misunderstanding is then proposed as a *correction* to the proper
explanation with historical depth.

Kind regards,

KE

QUOTEYavana = Bacterian (germ) ~ erstwhile Helino-Roman-Persian- Turkmenistan-regions (period based shifting Geog).
A Bacteria survives by invading and killing the native population of cells.Â It refuses toÂ do any signal transduction with the native cells, which alike manyÂ a severe disease causing parasites do not.Â Towards the Mediterranean.

The Brahmana (it appears) had grownÂ very suspicious ofÂ or frigid about theÂ Greek scholars who for them seemed to take away only and give back nothing ~ just like a Bacteria !Â Hence = YAVANA.Â

From the Indian point of view all this primarilyÂ strated with the Greek scholars comming into india.Â Technically, anÂ inter-scholar or inter-school accusation.Â
We may need to know if the Greeks had any such counter adage for the Indians ?Â
The Indian schools it seems had no such adage for the Sino-Nipponese visitors.

Kusana = Grasslander ~Â Tajikistan, Don-Danube valley, Caspian sea regions north by north east of Afghanistan and NW of Gobi desert (period based shifting Geog).....Chengis Khan was a Kusana ?Â The Kusana art is very smooth and rolling type - a reflection of their rolling grassland countryside....CossacksÂ in particular ~excellent horse men.

Note = These were notÂ the decendants of the star gazers of the Rik period.Â Kusanas andÂ YavanasÂ were not Brahmanas (scholars).Â The avermentÂ "Yavana generally means Foreigners and not necessarily Greeks" = is right so long the Kusana and Chins (mongoloids) are excluded.

Cordially,
Dr. Deepak Bhatt-acharya, LLB., Ph.D.

Bodhi · 08-19-2008, 11:27 AM

QUOTEFresh light on the Antiquity of Varanasi
(with special Reference to Excavations at Aktha and Sarai-Mohana)

Ashok Kumar Singh
Deptt. of A.l.H.C. & Archaeology, Banaras Hindu University.

Varanasi was one of the early Aryan settlements in the later Vedic
Literature. It was ruled by the Brahmdatta and it flourished along
with Kausambi and Hastinapura. Kasi, one of the sixteen Maha-
Janapadas, used to represent the kingdom of the same name with
Varanasi as capital. The city has played a vital role in the trade
of middle Ganga plain. The antiquity of the city and its continuous
history was not confirmed by any archaeological evidence till as
late as 1940 when Rajghat was accidentally discovered by a railway
contractor while digging in connection with the remodeling of the
present Kashi Railway Station. Rajghat was excavated between 1957-
58, and 1960-61 to 1966-67 by Department of AIHC & Archaeology,
Banaras Hindu University. It reveals uninterrupted sequence from pre-
NBP to Medieval period (800 B.C. - 1600 A.D.).

Recent excavations at Aktha (2002-2004) evidenced the date for the
earliest habitation to circa eleventh / twelfth centuries B. C.
(Jayaswal, 2002 : 128). This is a small satellite settlement and
situated 2 km south-east from Sarnath. The preliminary investigation
at Aktha suggests that it was one of the important settlements of
the Varanasi-Sarnath region and was inhabited much earlier than the
Sarnath.

Sarai Mohana, another satellite settlement of Varanasi, is situated
on the confluence of Varuna and Ganga, about 1/2 km north-east of
Rajghat. The earliest period of Sarai Mohana is a pre-iron culture
with Black-and-Red ware as the principal ceramic industry with
occasional paintings in white, black slipped ware and red ware. The
findings of Sarai Mohana were studied by the author (Singh & Singh,
2004 : 1-120). On account of the techno-typological similarities of
ceramic assemblage and antiquities of Period I of the other
chalcolithic and iron using cultures of the middle Ganga plains, a
time bracket of circa 1200 - 700 B. C. has been ascertained for the
earliest settlement at Sarai Mohana.

The ceramic industries and other antiquities of period-I of the
above named sites are well comparable with the chalcolithic and pre -
NBP cultures at Narhan I, Khairadih I, Agiabir I, Jhusi II, Raja-
Nala KaTila-I, Malhar-I, Lahuradewa-II, Imlidih Khurd II, Bhunadih-I
and Waina I. The carbon 14 dates of most of the above sites are now
available. The chronology proposed for Black-and-red ware broadly
agrees with the time span of 1300- 700 BC. A careful study and
comparison demonstrates that the antiquity of Varanasi may be fixed
between 1500-1300 B. C. which is earlier documented around 800 B. C.
at Rajghat.

~~Pandyan~~ · 08-21-2008, 08:44 AM

Bodhiji or someone, does this map present an accurate picture?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2...IndiaCities.jpg

Bodhi · 09-08-2008, 12:15 PM

Prof. Bhandarakar has speculated that "choLa" of tamiL is cognate with "chora" in saMskR^ita, or has even gone a step further by suggesting that 'chora' (meaning thief), might have been derived from choLa, much like dasyu/dAsa etc. ("Lectures on Ancient History of India", Calcutta University 1919)

Any insights?

09-08-2008, 05:23 PM

QUOTEAlas, Hindus keep on trying to confirm all the negative stereotypes
about themselves, i.c. their lack of historical sense. Here, it is
pretended that since eternity, Sanskrit has had a word Yavana meaning
foreigner. No, first it had no such word. then it heard of Greek
Ionians, or Yona in Prakrit, then sanskritizing this to Yavana. then
when proper Greeks disappeared from the horizon, it came to mean any
foreigner coming from the West. Moreover, this unhistorical
misunderstanding is then proposed as a *correction* to the proper
explanation with historical depth.

Kind regards,

KE


It is always good to look at the primary texts and their contexts. One can find with a pre-conceived mind (Yavanas are Ionians) always some connections which will fit, but others which don't are treated as symbolic.
But we have to be careful with homonyms. Gurjars are not Georgians or Hazars,etc.

Turvasu and Yavana
Vishnupurana IV.10 Gives the genealogy of the Nahusha Ailas. Devayani, the daughter of Bhrgu gives birth to Yadu and Turvasu. Yadu gets the south (Brahma., Hariv.) or southwest (Vayu.) and Turvasu the southeast. (Bhagavata places them in the west): dishi dakShiNa-pUrvasyAM turvasuM matimAn nR^ipaH || Harivamsha 1-30-17. Turvasu became the ruler of the SE!

Vishnupurana IV.16 Descendants of Turvasu
PARÃÅARA.--I shall now summarily give you an account of the descendants of Turvasu.
The son of Turvasu was Vahni; his son was GobÃ¡nu; his son was TraiÅÃ¡mba; his son was Karandhama; his son was Marutta. Marutta had no children, and he therefore adopted Dushyanta, of the family of Puru; by which the line of Turvasu merged into that of Puru 4. This took place in consequence of the malediction denounced on his son by YayÃ¡ti.

Notes Wlson:
442:4 Besides Bharata, who, as will be hereafter seen, was the son of Dushyanta, the VÃ¡yu, Matsya, Agni, and BrÃ¡hma PurÃ¡nÌas enumerate several descendants in this line, for the purpose evidently of introducing, as the posterity of Turvasu, the nations of the south of India: the series is Varuttha, (Karutthama, BrÃ¡hma), ÃndÃra (ÃkrÃra, BrÃ¡hma); whose sons are PÃ¡nÌdÌya, KarnÌÃ¡tÌa, Chola, Kerala; the Hari V. adds Kola, and the Agni very incorrectly GandhÃ¡ra.

Turvasus, thus according to the Puranas, were in the SE (of Aryavarta) and one branch merged with Purus, went to the south, and one went to the west (Bhagavata development): Agnipurana may be correct that they went further to Gandhara. These are the Yavanas. Says the Mahabharata:
yadostu yaadavaa jaataasturvasostu yavanah smrtah (MBh adiparva 136)
(One may wonder whether the Yavanas had not initially some (adopted) Munda or Dravidian affinities, before they moved on.)

The Yavana subbranch of Turvasus also came to the west. We see Raja Bhagadatta with Yavanas the Ajaneya horses, vessels of iron, and swords of hilts of ivory. (Vishnupurana VI.)
This would place Yavanas (still) in India during Mahabharata times, to the west of Mathura and Avanti. (Bhagavata development of Turvasus in the west, with Yavanas as subbranch)
The Kalayavana (Gargya) episode and Yavanas may refer to this time when they were in India. This king Bhagadatta may have appointed Kalayavana Gargya as his heir. It was Kalayavana who led the attack to Mathura.

Kalayavana episode Vishnupurana V.13
Birth of KÃ¡layavana: he advances against MathurÃ¡. KrishnÌa builds DwÃ¡rakÃ¡, and sends thither the YÃ¡dava tribe: he leads KÃ¡layavana into the cave of Muchukunda: the latter awakes, consumes the Yavana king, and praises KrishnÌa.
The king of the Yavanas, who was childless, became the friend of GÃ¡rgya; and the latter begot a son by his wife, who was as black as a bee, and was thence called KÃ¡layavana. The Yavana king having placed his son, whose breast was as hard as the point of the thunderbolt, upon the throne, retired to the woods. Inflated with conceit of his prowess, KÃ¡layavana demanded of NÃ¡rada who were the most mighty heroes on earth. To which the sage answered, "The YÃ¡davas."
Accordingly KÃ¡layavana assembled many myriads of Mlechchhas and barbarians, and with a vast armament of elephants, cavalry, chariots, and foot, advanced impatiently against MathurÃ¡ and the YÃ¡davas; wearying every day the animal that carried him, but insensible of fatigue himself. â¦
Thus reflecting, KrishnÌa solicited a space of twelve furlongs from the ocean, and there he built the city of DwÃ¡raka, defended by high ramparts, and beautified with gardens and reservoirs of water, crowded with houses and buildings, and splendid as the capital of Indra, AmarÃ¡vatÃ. Thither JanÃ¡rddana conducted the inhabitants of MathurÃ¡, and then awaited at that city the approach of KÃ¡layavana.
When the hostile army encamped round Mathura, KrishnÌa unarmed went forth, and beheld the Yavana king. KÃ¡layavana, the strong-armed, recognizing VÃ¡sudeva, pursued him; him whom the thoughts of perfect ascetics cannot overtake. Thus pursued, KrishnÌa entered a large cavern, where Muchukunda, the king of men, was asleep. The rash Yavana entering the cave, and beholding a man lying asleep there, concluded it must be KrishnÌa, and kicked him; at which Muchukunda awoke, and casting on him an angry glance, the Yavana was instantly consumed, and reduced to ashes.

The Mlechchhas and/or barbarians against KrishnÌa
In the Mahabharata Sabhaparva KrishnÌaâs war with Jarasandha (a Vasava Kuru king) is described with Yadavas being led to the west to remain out of reach of that king, but no account is given of any siege of Mathura by Kalayavana. Bhagadatta, is called a Yavana king, who chastised Muru and Naraka, ruled in the west and is one of Jarasandhaâs most attached feudatories. Sabhaparva 13.13-14:
muram ca narakam caiva ÅhÄsti yo yavanÄdhipau
aparyantabalo rÄjÄ pratÄ«cyÄm varuno yathÄ ||13||
bhagadatto mahÄrÄja vrddhas tava pituh sakhÄ
sa vÄcÄ pranatas tasya karmanÄ caiva bhÄrata ||14||
That king of the Yavanas, who hath chastised Muru and Naraka,whose power is unlimited, and who ruleth the west like another Varuna, is King Bhagadatta, who is the old friend of thy father, hath bowed his head (before Jarasandha), by speech and specially by act, O Bharata.

NOTE: This king is in various other places called king of Pragjyotisha, as he is in a subsequent passage of the Sabhaparva. This Bhagadatta, king of Yavanas, is not the same as the eastern king. We must have two Bhagadattas. Shantiparva 340 (enumerating slaying many demons separates them: First the king of the Narakas, named together with Muru and Pitha, is slain. Then another is slain, who is king of Pragjyotisha! It also refers to Kalayavana briefly:
There, after slaying innumerable Danavas that will be thorns in the side of the deities, I shall take up my residence in Kusasthali at the city of Dwaraka. While residing in that city I shall slay the Asura Naraka, the son of 'the Earth,--him, that is, who will do an injury to Aditi, as also some 'other Danavas of the names of Muru and Pitha. Slaying also another foremost of Danavas, viz., the lord of Pragjyotisha, I shall transplant his delightful city furnished with diverse kinds of wealth into Dwaraka.
â¦
I shall next, O foremost of Brahmanas, compass the death of Kalayavana, a Danava who will be endued with great might in consequence of his being equipt with the energy of Gargya.

The Yavana king rules somewhere in the west, in the Varuna direction, close to the sea. Naraka is one of the hells, probably here referring to Rasa-tala, or a river close to the Narmada Valley upto its mouth: âthe NarmadÃ¡ and SurasÃ¡ from the Vindhya hillsâ (Vi.pur II.3.19). Su-Rasa, the river of one of the Narakas called Rasa-tala, in the Vindhyas. SurasÃ¡, in another connection, is also mother of the Nagas. (bhu-janga => bhumi connection).
The Narmada enters the sea at Bhrgukaccha, showing the sphere of influence of the Bhargavas (Mundah) to the Yavana Turvasus.

This also tallies with the Mucukundas close to Mahishmati area, a city founded by an ancient Raja Mucukunda.
The Mlecchas and barbarians referred in the text would mean certain Prakrit and non-Prakrit speaking tribes and tribals in that area.
This would mean that the Mathura Yadavas were threatened from two directions: from the south/southwest and from the east. First the Yadavas moved to the west to escape attacks and threats from the east by Jarasandha. Then after having won over Bhagadatta to his side, his adopted heir Kalayavana attacked them from the southwest.

Vedic Sanskrit Javana > Paninian Sanskrit Yavana
Horse
Both Javana and Yavana are connected with speed and horses, feminine has also curtain. (perhaps of such material as the kambalas of their neighbours or cousins, the Kambojas. Kambojas are also famous for horse and horse trade. Ashvayanas and Ashvakayanas. Iranic affiliation of Kambojas, perhaps through Iranic Yavanas)
The Brahmanda Purana (Upodghata-pada, 16-17) refers to the horses born in Yavana country.
Javana > Yavana has a swiftness connection. So does Turvasu: tur = to hurry, to run, press forward. Turvasu or Vedic Turvasha is always connected with Yadu.

Mundah
Ganapatha on Panini has:: kamboja-mun.d.ah yavana-mun.d.ah (Ganapatha II.1.72)
Mahabharata has: mundanetan...Kambojaneva (MBH 7.119.26-27);
Munda = shaven. If it is the head which is shaven, then it points to a custom of Bhargava haircut. Previously the Kambojas had a Vasishtha haircut: kapardin to the right of the head as per Paraskara GS.

Yavana
1. mfn. quick, swift; m. a swift horse L. (javana).
2. m. a Yavana (or a king of the Yavanas, gana kambojaÃ¡di; also an Indo-Greek, in later times also a Muhammadan, European, any foreigner or barbarian) Mn. MBh. etc.;
N. of a caste Gaut.DS (accord. to L. "the legitimate son of a Kshatriya and a VaishyÃ¢ or "an Ugra who is an elephant catcher")
N. of a country (= yavana-desha) W.;
wheat L.; a carrot L.; olibanum L.;
pl. the Yavanas; the Bactrian Greeks (esp. the Greek astrologers) MBh. VarBRS. etc.; N. of a dynasty Puranas;

Yavanii
1. f. the wife of a Yavana; the wife of an Indo-Greek or Muhammadan woman KÃ¢lid. Sish. (Yavana girls were formerly employed as attendants on kings, esp. to take charge of their bows and quivers); yavanii = javanii, a curtain L.;
2. n. salt from saline soil L.

JÃ¡vana
1. mf(ii)n. (g. dRDhaÃ¡di; oxyt. PÃ¢N 3-2, 150) quick, swift, fleet RV. i, 51, 2 ShvetUp. iii, 19 MBh. etc.;
2. m. a fleet horse L.; a kind of deer L.; N. of one of Skanda's attendants MBh. ix, 2577; pl. for yav, q.v. KshitÃ®sh.;
3. n. speed, velocity PÃ¢rGR. i, 17 ShÃ¢GkhGR. MBh. iv, 1414;

Javanii
f. a curtain, screen L.; N. of a plant L.;

Verbal root and rootstem
I. juu
(cf. jinv), cl, i. Ã., 9. P. jÃ¡vate, junaÃ¡ti ( ju, cl. 1. P. javati DhÃ¢tup. xxii, 60, v.l.; a Sautra root PÃ¢N 3-2, 177; 3, 97 and 4, 80 KÃ¢sh.; Subj. 2. sg. junaÃ¡s; aor, Subj. juujuvat; pf. 3. pl. juujuvur) to, press forwards, hurry on, be quick RV. iii, 33, 1 ShBr. x; to impel quickly, urge or drive on, incite RV. TS. vi; to scare RV. i, 169, 3; to excite, promote, animate, inspire RV.: Caus. aor. ajiijavat PÃ¢N 7-4, 80 Sch.: Caus. Desid. jijavayiSati ib. KÃ¢sh.;

II: juÃº
1. mfn. (PÃ¢N 3-2, 177 and 178 VÃ¢rtt. 2) quick, speedy, (m.) courser RV. i, 134, 1 and 140, 4; (ii, 14, 3?, acc. pl.; 2. jÃºr); inciting, driving VS. ii, 17 ShBr. x, 3, 5, 2 and 5,;
2. f. speed L.; the atmosphere L.; a female goblin L.; SarasvatÃ® L.; a spot on the forehead (?) of horses and oxen UN. Sch.;

Yavanaanii f. the writing of the Yavanas PÃ¢N 4-1, 49 VÃ¢rtt. 3 Pat.
Yavana mfn. (1. yu) keeping away, averting ( dveSo-yÃ¡vana). < Vedic accent!

1: yaavana
mf(ii)n. (fr. yavana; for 2. and 3. p. 853, col. 1) born or produced in the land of the Yavanas, PrÃ¢yashc.; m. olibanum L. _
2: yaavana
n. (fr. Caus.; for 1. p. 852, col. 3; for 3. below) keeping off, removing Nir. SÃ¢y. _
3: yaavana
n. (fr. Caus.) uniting, joining, mixing ( a-y).

yavaana
mfn. quick, swift L. (prob. w.r. for javaana).

The Mahaniddesa refers to Yona and Parama Yona. (yonas in gandhara and kandahar?)

Yavana Jataka by Yavanacharya
He was an Acharya, a Yavana, in the court of an Indo-Greek. King Sphurjidhvaja has recorded his teachings. Yavana astrologers may have been non-Greeks, ruled by Indo-Greeks, and influenced by Babylonian, Persian and Greek sciences.

Yona mentioned in Ashoka's edicts
Ashoka refers to a Seleucid king (Antiochus I or II) as "Amtiyoko... Yonaraja", and in other rock edicts the name Yona is applied to a peripheral province ("rajavisaya", i.e. royal dominion) of his empire that was contiguous to Kamboja and Gandhara, and that was almost certainly Arachosia (the Kandahar region), where *all* known Ashokan Greek inscriptions, directed to the king's Greek-speaking subjects, are or were once located. Arachosia has long been assumed to be a key Seleucid administrative center. [F. Brighenti]

NOTE: Yona is an ancient visaya. Whoever ruled over it was a Yona raja. As the Indo-Greek ruled over it, he was a Yona-raja or king over Yona visaya. The overlord of the Indo-Greek regent of Yona visaya was Antiochus, which naturally makes him the Yona-raja. Antiochus of course never ruled in Yona visaya. All the Indo-Greek people connected with the regent over Yona-raja were then considered as Yonas.
Yona visaya as Arachosia is an ancient Avestan center.

From Gujarat to Arachosia and Ghazni was also the route of the Yadavas. The Jaisalmer Bhati Rajputs returned after Arab attacks from Ghazni to the Panjab and then to Jaisalmer. So there is no problem in having Yavana Turvasus moving there. (and get partially Iranized; also moving to Gandhara, perhaps the Parama Yonas).

The Greek influence in the Indo-Greek ruled Yona visaya is especially with reference to astrology. I do not know how much is Iranian knowledge, influenced by Babylonia and perhaps through these Irianian sphere having retrieved some Greek knowledge.
Basically, it would be interesting to see whether Yonas, as Iranized Indians, had internalized Iranian astrology (through Babylon) with Greek influences. Which means that (Indo-)Greeks may not directly have been the Acharyas (like Yavanacharya), but the Iranized Indian Yonas themselves. On the contrary, one can see Indo-Greeks becoming Bauddha (Menandros) and Vaishnava (Heliodoros)!

Thus, I believe that too much weight or importance is given to Yavana and Greek connections. The Mahabharata doesn't really support a Yavana coming from the west. It would be strange why it would make Yavanas as a branch of Turvasus. It really makes sense that they were of the same ethnic and/or cultural group as the southern off shoot Turvasu groups. The location close to the Vindhya and Narmada also supports connections with tribes of the Vindhya and further south. (If the Yavana Turvasus are related to southern people, can they be an early branched off tribe which entered Brahui areas? Are they the Brahui speakers??)
The location there also supports their Paninian "Mundah" status connected with the Bhrgus os bhrgukaccha. Besides, the whole Kalayavana episode doesn't resemble episodes of an Indo-Greek invasion of the 2nd century. None of the Sanskrit names resembles any Indo-Greek name in meaning or sound.
Besides, none of the Persian inscriptions of Darius never place Yauna or Yauna takbara areas, referring to Ionians of Asia Minor. in the east! There may have been pockets of Ionian mercenaries of the Persian army in the east, but they were too insignificant. And these certainly weren't scholars. Alexander doesn't refer to having met any Greek (ruled) province in Arachosia.

Husky · (This post was last modified: 09-10-2008, 07:32 PM by Husky.)

QUOTE(Bodhi @ Aug 3 2008, 07:41 PM)<div class='quotetop'>QUOTEWho were the Vratyas - the searching wanderers?
...

The Vedic and the Jain traditions both glorify certain Kings who also were great religious Masters. In the Hindu tradition, Lord Rsabha - son of King Nabhi and Merudevi, and the ancestor of Emperor Bharata (after whom this land was named Bharatavarsha) is a very revered figure. The Rig Veda and Yajur Veda, too, mention Rishabhadeva and Aristanemi. According to the Jain tradition Rishabhadeva is the first Tirthankara of the present age(avasarpini); and, Aristanemi is the twenty-second Tirthankara.
A lengthy, detailed and interesting article.

comments from HH would be very helpful.
[right][snapback]85683[/snapback][/right]</div>While we wait for HH:
In the books/papers that I read that discussed the name Rishabha in some detail, they said that the Jaina Tirthankara and the Hindu Rishabha were probably not the same. It may be similar to how modern day people assume that the name Gautama always refers to the Buddha when that is actually not true (e.g. Gautama Muni, Ramayanam). That is, not all ancient Dharmic texts speaking of Gautama mean to refer to Buddha at all.
It is very possible for important Dharmic characters to have had the same name in the past - something that happens particularly frequently in the present.

Though I can't find the references I am looking for at the moment, here is something from Koenraad Elst that touches on it:
http://www.bharatvani.org/books/wiah/ch7.htm
QUOTE31Mention of Rishabha in the Yajurveda (?Om nama arhato Rishabho??), along with two from the Vishnu and Bhagavata Puranas, are given as proof for the pre-Vedic antiquity of Jainism by T.K. Tukol: Compendium of Jainism, p.11-12. However, the oldest mention of one Rishabha is inside the Rigveda, and not even in the oldest part: Rishabha, son of Vishvamitra, is listed as composer of hymns 3:13 and 3:14 to Agni; there is nothing typically Jain about these hymns.Â For all we know, the Vedic Rishabha is not the same person as the founder of Jainism. Again, it says the name may refer to two different persons.
Another reason I think it unlikely that the Rishabha who wrote the Vedic hymns could have been the Jaina Tirtankara is that Tirtankaras are very important to Jaina tradition yet the Vedas (to which the Vedic Rishabha made some contribution) specifically aren't.

~~Pandyan~~ · 09-10-2008, 06:13 PM

QUOTE(Husky @ Sep 10 2008, 04:51 AM)The Vedic and the Jain traditions both glorify certain Kings who also were great religious Masters. In the Hindu tradition, Lord Rsabha - son of King Nabhi and Merudevi, and the ancestor of Emperor Bharata (after whom this land was named Bharatavarsha) is a very revered figure. The Rig Veda and Yajur Veda, too, mention Rishabhadeva and Aristanemi. According to the Jain tradition Rishabhadeva is the first Tirthankara of the present age(avasarpini); and, Aristanemi is the twenty-second Tirthankara.

Been asking about this for a long time.

QUOTEHe followed the orders of His guru and accepted a wife named Jayanti, who had been given to Him by the King of heaven, Indra. He begot a hundred sons in the womb of Jayanti. Of these hundred sons, the eldest was known as Bharata. Since the reign of Maharaja Bharata, the Indian sub-continent has been called Bharata-varsa.

QUOTEAccording to the MahÄbhÄrata (Adi Parva), Bharata was the son of King Dushyanta and Shakuntala and thus a descendant of the Lunar Dynasty of the Kshatriya caste. He was originally named Sarvadamana (subduer of all); the MahÄbhÄrata traces the events in his life by which he came to be known as Bharata ("the cherished").
I'm seeing two conflicting stories. Who exactly is it named after?

09-10-2008, 06:45 PM

One of the myths is that before the British and Mughals, India was never united. (perhaps admitting a few exceptions, like Ashoka and Samudragupta).

Prayer of Vaidika kings to become supreme emperor of the subcontinent:
May I win all victories, find all worlds, attain the superiority, pre-eminence, and supremacy over all kings and overlordship, paramount rule, self-rule, sovereignty, supreme authority, kingship, great kingship and suzerainty; may I be all encompassing, possessed of all the Earth, possessed of all life, from the one end up to the further side of the Earth bounded by the ocean sole ruler. (AB viii.5)

Aitareya Brahmana viii.21, hereafter, enumerates 11 supreme emperors who âwent around the Earth completely, conquering (her) on every side, letting the horse roam aboutâ (samantaM sarvataH prthiviin jayan pariiyaayaaÅhvena) and were paramount rulers through the Aindrabhisheka and Ashvamedha: Janamejaya II Parikshita (predecessor of Janamejaya III Pandava), Sharyata Manava, Shatanika Satrajita, Ambasthya, Yuddhamshraushti Augrasainya, Vishvakarman Bhauvana, Sudas Paijavana, Marutta Avikshita, Anga, Bharata Dauhshanti and Durmukha Pancala.

Another enumeration, 8 of the ten which are new, is at AB vii.34: Vishvantara Saudasamana, Janamejaya II Parikshita, Somaka Sahadevya, Sahadeva Sarnjya, Babhru Devavrdha, Bhima Vaidarbhi, Nagnajit Gandhara, Sanashruta Arindama, Kratuvud Janaki and Sudas Paijavana.
sarve haiva mahaaraajaa aasur, aaditya iva ha sma Åhriyaam
pratiSHTHitaas tapanti sarvaabhyo digbhyo balim aavahanta
âAll of them were great kings; like the Sun, established in prosperity, they gave warmth, obtaining tribute from all quarters.â

While the first enumeration stresses their paramount sovereignty through their conquering, the second one doesnât. There the surrounding kings accepted the supremacy without being conquered. Notice also that the paramount rulers came from different Vaidika areas, including Gandhara up to Anga, down to Vidarbha.

These Vaidika texts are clear that the whole Earth (subcontinent), bounded by oceans on the other side, was the aim for kings to be ruling over.
We find an enumeration of great emperors in Maitrayaniya Upanishad I.4 of whom these 18 names are given: Sudyumna, Bhuridyumna, Indradyumna, Kuvalayashva, Yauvanashva, Vadhryashva, Ashvapati, Shashabindu, Harishcandra, Ambarisha, Nahusha, Ananata, Sharyati, Yayati, Anaranya, Ukshasena, Marutta and Bharata.

And one of the greatest was considered to be Bharata whose was remembered as the name of the whole Earth.
That the whole Earth was named Bharata, is because his descendants too ruled over the earth: Bharatas with all their branches dominated the north and Bharatas adopted by Marutta Turvasu went south to rule there (see Puranas).
Thus the subcontinent seems to be named after one of its greatest paramount ruler, and this name was continued by his descendants ruling over various parts of the subcontinent, north and south! The Bharata Samskrti had united the people of the subcontinent from ancient times

09-10-2008, 06:59 PM

QUOTEQUOTE
He followed the orders of His guru and accepted a wife named Jayanti, who had been given to Him by the King of heaven, Indra. He begot a hundred sons in the womb of Jayanti. Of these hundred sons, the eldest was known as Bharata. Since the reign of Maharaja Bharata, the Indian sub-continent has been called Bharata-varsa.

QUOTE
According to the MahÄbhÄrata (Adi Parva), Bharata was the son of King Dushyanta and Shakuntala and thus a descendant of the Lunar Dynasty of the Kshatriya caste. He was originally named Sarvadamana (subduer of all); the MahÄbhÄrata traces the events in his life by which he came to be known as Bharata ("the cherished").

I'm seeing two conflicting stories. Who exactly is it named after?


The background of Bharata, son of Rshabha:
Lord Rsabha was incarnation of Lord Vishnu. He appeared in the womb of Merudevi, the wife of King Nabhi. The King underwent many severe austerities and penance to please Lord Visnu to get a son like Lord Vishnu. Lord Vishnu accepted his plea and thus appeared as Lord Rsabha - son of King Nabhi and Merudevi.
He followed the orders of His guru and accepted a wife named Jayanti, who had been given to Him by the King of heaven, Indra. He begot a hundred sons in the womb of Jayanti. Of these hundred sons, the eldest was known as Bharata. Since the reign of Maharaja Bharata, the Indian sub-continent has been called Bharata-varsa. Rsabhadeva's other sons were headed by Kusavarta, Ilavarta, Brahmavarta, Malaya, Ketu, Bhadrasena, Indrasprk, Vidarbha and Kikata.

These data, in my opinion, describe in another mode about Rishi Rshabha Vaishvamitra doing penances (one of the places was Meru, which is a Nabhi of the world) to become a Brahmarshi. I believe that one Vaishvamitra is even called Bharata-rshabha.
The son of this Rshabha is Bharata after whom the whole subcontinent is named.

Thus, this version is not conflicting with the version of Bharata Dauhshanti, grandson of Vaishvamitra, as great conqueror of the subcontinent and giving his name to his dominion. It is only giving other details from another viewpoint, in my opinion.

Husky · (This post was last modified: 09-10-2008, 07:36 PM by Husky.)

^ Pandyan, see Ishwa's more important posts above

Early descendants from Bharata's dynasty are also called Bharatas:
http://koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com/arti.../astronomy.html
QUOTEOne of Manu's heirs was Ila, ancestress of Yayati, whose five sons became the patriarchs of the "five peoples" who form the ethnic horizon of the Vedas, one of them being Puru; in Puru's tribe, then, one Bharata started the Bharata clan to which most of the Vedic seers belonged.A lot of the Vedas actually come from the Bharatas.

http://www.bharatvani.org/books/rig/ch3.htm.
(Try a search over all the chapters of this book for "Bharata".)
QUOTEREFERENCES TO KINGS AND RSIS

It is not only composers who are referred to within the hymns: there are also references to Kings and RSis (other than composers); and an examination of these references can help in throwing more light on the chronology of the MaNDalas.

We will examine these references as follows:

A. The Bharata Dynasty.
B. Minor Kings and RSis.
C. The TRkSi Dynasty-

IV.A. The Bharata Dynasty

The Bharata Dynasty is the predominant dynasty in the Rigveda.Â Eleven Kings of this dynasty are referred to in the Rigveda: 
http://koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com/bo...ah/ch1.htm
QUOTEThe Puranas describe (and the Epics occasionally refer to) several dozens of generations of ancestors of the Puru-Bharata lineage which patronized the composition of the Vedas.10

Then, Bharatas also has another meaning: the people who are children of Bharatam.

In the Gita, Krishna refers to Arjuna of the Puru dynasty as Bharata (scion of Bharata - doubles both in meaning as being of the line of the ancient king Bharata and being child of our country Bharatam). Like Bharata before them, Pandavas were also of the Lunar Dynasty. Rama was Solar Dynasty.

In Jaina Dharma, Krishna is considered a Jaina (and I think the Pandavas too?)
All I know from my own observations and limited reading of Hindu texts is that the Gita and Mahabharatam make references to the Vedas (and the Vedas refer to themselves too of course). I don't recall references to Jaina literature or Tirtankaras referred to as Tirtankaras in them. Then again, the references might be in Jaina literature.

Note that the desperate, appropriating western indologicals lay great stress on trying to claim Bharata and in fact the entire Puru dynasty (that includes people like Indian king/emperor Yayati, who married Devayani daughter of Shukracharya the Guru of the Asuras; Yayati is an ancestor of Pandavas - see Mahabharatam) as being some of them famous "oryan" invader-migrants of christian theology. Christowest is so ridiculously desperate to claim all Hindu literature and epics and Hindu heroes as their own ancestors that it is just plain sad.

But in fact, the Bharatas' homeland was actually rather east of the Punjab itself, as shown by that brilliant Shrikant Talageri here:
http://www.bharatvani.org/books/rig/ch4.htm
The Geography of the Rigveda
including its section II.A. The Westward Expansion in the Bharata Period
shows how they moved from eastern part near Yamuna and Ganga to Panjab.
See map http://www.bharatvani.org/books/rig/img21.jpg

Bodhi · (This post was last modified: 09-10-2008, 08:04 PM by Bodhi.)

Ishwa, thanks for your recent enlightening posts. In mahAbhArata, undoubtably, yavana-s are placed as half-brothers of indian tribes and were mentioned respectably. Then later they have been moved into mlechCha category and denigerated as a pApiShTha (sin-tending) jAti. in Adi parvan, there is a story of several martial tribes emerging from the spiritual powers of vashiShTha, through nandinI, to defeat the army of vishvAmitra and shatter his ego. In several 'fighting' peoples mentioned in this list, yavana are considered respectably born through none other than the womb of nandinI (who is a spiritual daughter of kashyapa, in shape of a cow). Also pahlava race is mentioned rather respectably in this episode, whereas chIna-s, hUNa-s, etc are mentioned born through the saliva and mentioned as mlechCha-s. Also to be noted is yavana-s are mentioned two times in this story - first born through the womb and then again through saliva, hinting at two different types of yavana-s, the latter being mlechCha-s.

At other place, kR^iShNa and yudhiShThira discuss about the history of different kshatriya-s. There the former mentions that the foreign kingdoms (e.g. yavana) are none other than fallen and inferior kshatriya-s who were made to flee during the campaigns of the furious son of jamadAgni, and these fallen ones had taken over from other tribes and started ruling abroad.

(the last, i will have to double check for accuracy of exact data, as to whether yavana are mentioned there.)

QUOTE(Ishwa @ Sep 10 2008, 06:59 PM)The background of Bharata, son of Rshabha:
Lord Rsabha was incarnation of Lord Vishnu. He appeared in the womb of Merudevi, the wife of King Nabhi. The King underwent many severe austerities and penance to please Lord Visnu to get a son like Lord Vishnu. Lord Vishnu accepted his plea and thus appeared as Lord Rsabha - son of King Nabhi and Merudevi.
He followed the orders of His guru and accepted a wife named Jayanti, who had been given to Him by the King of heaven, Indra. He begot a hundred sons in the womb of Jayanti. Of these hundred sons, the eldest was known as Bharata. Since the reign of Maharaja Bharata, the Indian sub-continent has been called Bharata-varsa. Rsabhadeva's other sons were headed by Kusavarta, Ilavarta, Brahmavarta, Malaya, Ketu, Bhadrasena, Indrasprk, Vidarbha and Kikata.
[right][snapback]87786[/snapback][/right]


The above, I had seen in bhAgavatapurANa. Any other purANa, eg nArada or viShNu says this?

09-11-2008, 04:10 AM

Yw, Bodhi. Here more on Yavanas, Kambojas, etc. from 2 episodes. I am sorry that the posting is very long. The included original texts + translations are very important, I believe.

I. Vasishtha and Nandini Episode
Ramayana Ramayana I.54 Kamadhenu episode as retold by Rshi Shatananda
tasyaa huMbhaa rava utsrSHTHaaH pahlavaaH shatasho nrpa || 1-54-18cd||
(she created) hundreds of Pahlavas, who sprang forth from her mooing 'hums', O king.
bhuuya eva asrjat ghoraan shakaan yavana mishritaan || 1-54-21ab||
then the Sacred Cow again generated deadly Shaka-s hobnobbed with Yavana-s.
taiH taiH yavana kaambhojaa barbaraaH ca akulii krtaaH || 1-54-23ab||
(missiles,) by which Yavana-s, Kaambhoja-s, and the Barbara-s, are rendered helter-skelter."
Note: The Barbara-s are said in this text whereas other MSS. contain it as "Pahlava-s'.
Suddenly, the Kambojas appear here in the text.
tasyaa huMkaarato jaataaH kaambojaa ravi sannibhaaH |
uudhasaH tu atha sanjaataaH pahlavaaH shastra paaNayaH || 1-55-2||
yoni deshaat ca yavanaH shakr-deshaat shakaaH tathaa |
roma kuupeShu mlecchaaH ca haariitaaH sa kiraatakaaH || 1-55-3||
"From the 'hums' of her mooing Kaamboja-s similar to sunshine are born, from her udder Pahlava-s wielding weaponry are born, from the area of her privates Yavana-s, likewise from her rectal area Shaka-s, and from her hair-roots Mleccha-s, Haariitaa-s along with Kirataka-s are issued forth.â

NOTE: This is a symbolic picture: The mystical sound âhumâ rather points to sacred chanting (included with spells): âhum or huum ind. an exclamation; a mystical syllable used in spells and magical texts or sentences; in Vedic ritual used immediately before the singing of the PrastÃ¢va or prelude as well as during the chanting of the PratihÃ¢ra or response ShrS. MBh. KÃ¢v. Etc.â. Only the Kambojas are created from Hum, here. (in I.53 it is the Pahlavas)
Udhas points to cattle: groups occupied with animal husbandry, especially cattle? Yoni (seed) and Shakrt (dung) point to reproduction: groups occupied with sowing and fertilizing = agriculture? Romakupa points to caves in wilderness (especially in the mountains: peripheral (mountainous) groups?

Thus, one gets a picture of groups occupied with different professions in a rural setting, close to mountains, with Kiratakas we are in the (Sub)Himalayas. All groups are within the subcontinent. These groups are forming a Panca-gana: 1. Kambojas, 2. Yavanas, 3. Shakas, 4. Pahlavas and 5. Harita-Kirataka-Mlecchas. The Kambojas (1) and Yavanas (2) form an intimate group (a). The Shakas (3) , Pahlavas (4) and x (5) form another intimate group (b). And x = Parada, Darada or another gana.

II. Sagara First Episode
As the Kambojas, etc. do not feature in the Rgveda, I do not believe that the Raja Sagara Episode with the Pancaganas is an ancient one. The Ayodhya king was fighting only the Haihaya Yadavas. The episode with the 5 groups, thus, points to a much later time, to a Second Episode with a namesake. The First Episode is the Sagara versus Haihaya War. This war also had a Pancagana, but these were 5 Haihaya ganas: âThese, according to the Vayu, were the Talajanghas, Vitihotras, Avantyas, TuNDikeras, and Jatas. (Note Wilson on Vishnupurana iv.11 Arjuna Karttavirya episode)
Let us look at the interpolated Second Episode

A. Harivamsha 1.13
rurukaH tanayaH tasya rAja-dharma-artha kovidaH || 1-13-29
rurukasya vR^ikaH putro vR^ikAt bAhuH tu jaj~nivAn |
shakai yavana kAMbojaiH pAradaiH pahlavaiH saha ||1-13-30
haihayAH tAlaja~NghAH cha nirasyanti sma taM nR^ipam |
na atyarthaM dhArmikaH tAta sa hi dharma-yuge.abhavat |1-13-31
vijaya's son is ruruka who is an expert in kingcraft;
rururka's son is vR^ika, and his son is bAhuka, who turned out as a licentious king.
So, the shaka-s, yavana-s, kAMboja-s, pArada-s, pahlava-s, haihayA-s and tAlaja~NghA-s have invaded his country and drove him to forests. His misconduct in an era of righteous conduct led him to such a misfortune.

sagaraH tu suto bAhoH jaj~ne saha gareNa cha |
aurvasya Ashramam Agamya bhArgaveNa abhirakShitaH | || 1-13-32
Agneyam astraM labdhvA cha bhArgavAt sagaro nR^ipaH |
jigAya pR^ithivIM hatvA tAlaja~NghAn sa haihayAn || 1-13-33
shakAnAM pahlavAnAM cha dharmaM nirasat achyutaH |
kShatriyANAM kuru-shreShTha pAradAnAM sa dharma-vit || 1-13-34
bAhuka's son is sagara, i.e., sa gara, meaning that he took birth with poison in his body... but he is protected, educated and brought up by sage aurva... he also obtained a missile called Agneya-astra from that sage... and that righteous emperor sagara brought whole earth under one umbrella and deprived tAlaja~NghA-s, haihayA-s, shakA-s, pahlavA-s of their institution... thus that knower of dharma, namely emperor sagara, established the moral custom of kshatriya-s... The legend of sagara is detailed in bAla kANDa of vAlmIki rAmAyaNa.

NOTE: In 1.13.33 we have the Haihayas and Talajanghas separated in the translation, but Talajanghas are Haihayas. The word between the two is âsaâ and not âcaâ. That may have been influenced by Shloka 1.13.31, where âcaâ is there. But that is based upon the enumeration in Shloka 30cd. Thus the translation of Shloka 31 starts with: âAnd Talajangha Haihayas â¦.â.
The information in Shloka 30cd is an interpolation in my opinion, as these groups were non-existent in the very ancient pre-Kuru times.
One can see that Shloka 33 has the Talajangha Haihayas. Shloka 34 with the Shakas, Pahlavas and Paradas is, again in my opinion, interpolated here.
The Pancagana in Shloka 30 has: Shakas, Yavanas, Kambojas, Paradas and Pahlavas. Shloka 24 has a Trigana of Shakas, Pahlavas and Paradas, implying a more intimate connection of the unmentioned Dvigana Kambojas and Yavanas.

HV 1.14. http://www.mahabharata-resources.org/har..._1_14.html
sa tena astra-balena ajau balena cha samanvitaH || 1-14-10
haihayAn nijaghAn Ashu kruddho rudraH pashUn iva |
AjahAra cha lokeShu kIrtiM kIrtimatAM varaH || 1-14-11
tataH shakAn sa yavanAn kAmbojAn pAradAM tadA |
pahlavAn chaiva niHsheShAn kartuM vyavasitastadA || 1-14-12
te vadhyamAnA vIreNa sagareNa mahAtmanA |
vasiShThaM sharaNaM gatvA praNipetur manIShiNam || 1-14-13
vasiShThastvatha tAn dR^iShTvA samayena mahAdyutiH |
sagaraM vArayAmAsa teShAM dattva abhayaM tadA || 1-14-14
Then sagara with his might, and that of the missile he possessed, started annihilating haihaya-s ruthlessly, as god rudra would be annihilating living being at the end of era... then he embarked to wipe out shaka-a, yavanA-s, kAmboja-s, pArada-s, and pahlavA-s completely. When sagara started eliminating them thus, then they reverently sought the refuge of noble-minded vashiSTha. Noticing their plight the high-minded vashiSTha gave them a safe haven and dissuaded king sagara from that onslaught...
sagaraH svAM pratij~nAM cha guroH vAkyaM nishamya cha |
dharmaM jaghAna teShAM vai veSha anyatvaM chakAra ha || 1-14-15
arddhaM shakAnAM shiraso muNDaM kR^itvA vyasarjayat |
yavanAnAM shiraH sarvaM kAmbojAnAM tathaiva cha || 1-14-16
pAradA mukta-keshAH cha pahlavAH shmashru-dhAriNaH |
niHsvAdhyAya vaShaTkArAH kR^itAstena mahAtmanA || 1-14-17
Holding on to his own pledge to root out incompatibles, also keeping the promise given by his mentor to the same folks in view, sagara let them off ordering a different identity for them. He ordered half-shaved heads to shaka-s; clean-shaven heads to yavanA-s; pArada-s and kAmbojA-s to hang their head hair loose; pahlavA-s shall grow beards. He debarred them all from the study of Vedic text and scriptures.

NOTE: Here we have another grouping, based on hairstyles or facial hairs. The translation is not correct here: Yavanas and Kambojas both have Munda (!) here. Shakas have Ardha-Munda. Paradas have their hair straight (Pulasti?), and Pahlavas have Smashru hair, pointing normally to facial hair (beard and/or moustache)
That both Yavana and Kamboja are Munda points to a post-Paraskarya Grhya Sutra date, as in that work Bhrgus have Munda and Kambojas have Dakshinatah Kapardin like the Vasishthas. (that points to the Humkara or recitation fase in the Nandini Episode in the Ramayana, when Yavanas were connected with Yoni or seeds-sowing.

B. Bhagavatapurana 9.8.5-6
yas tÄlajaÅghÄn yavanÄÃ± chakÄn haihaya-barbarÄn
nÄvadhÄ«d guru-vÄkyena cakre vikrÌ£ta-vesÌ£inÌ£ahÌ£
munÌ£dÌ£ÄÃ± chmaÅru-dharÄn kÄmÌÅcin mukta-keÅÄrdha-munÌ£dÌ£itÄn
anantar-vÄsasahÌ£ kÄmÌÅcid abahir-vÄsaso 'parÄn
Sagara MahÄrÄja, following the order of his spiritual master, Aurva, did not kill the uncivilized men like the TÄlajaÅghas, Yavanas, Åakas, Haihayas and Barbaras. Instead, some of them he made dress awkwardly, some of them he shaved clean but allowed to wear mustaches, some of them he left wearing loose hair, some he half shaved, some he left without underwear, and some without external garments. Thus these different clans were made to dress differently, but King Sagara did not kill them.

NOTE: Here is a further elaboration from hair dress to dress in general.

III. Sagara Second Episode
This episode points to the Pancagana, together with more Ganas into a state of deterioration from the point of view of the dominant Samskrti from Madhyadesha.

shakA yavana kAmbojAH pAradAH cha vishAmpate |
kolisarpAH sa mahiShA dArdyAH cholAH sa keralAH || 1-14-18
sarve te kShatriyAH tAta dharmaH teShAM nirAkR^itaH |
vasiShTha vachanAt rAjan sagareNa mahAtmanA || 1-14-19
In fact, all the shaka-s, yavanA-s, kAmboja-s, pArada-s, koli-sarpa-s, mahiSha-s, dArdya-s chola-s, and kerala-s, are kshatriya-s only... but, emperor sagara precluded them from kshatriya dharma for their unprincipled actions, according to the verdict of sage vashiSTha.
khasAM tu pArAM cholAM cha madrAn kiShkindhakAM tathA |
kauntalAM cha tathA va~NgAn sAlvA kau~NkaNakAn tathA || 1-14-20
sa dharma-vijayI rAjA vijityemAM vasundharAm |
ashvaM vai prerayAmAsa vAji-medhAya dIkShitaH || 1-14-21
On conquering kings of khasA, pAra, chola, madra, kiShkindha, kuntala, vanga, konkaNa provinces, and to become a righteous conqueror of the world he undertook the vow for ashwa-medha ritual, horse-sacrifice ritual, and released the horse, challenging any king who dares to capture that horse.
Note: Here a reading difficulty is there. In the starting compound of first foot, a letter's position alters the reading. If it is read as khasAMstuShArAm, it becomes khasA-s and tuShaaraa-s. BORI records this - khashAs tu ShArAsh cInAsh ca - China is also brought in. It is read as above in chitrashala edition.

NOTE: Here we have more Kshatriya Ganas who are becoming degraded. A similar episode can be seen in the Sutra Period, as described by Baudhayana.
This king Sagara has a connection with ocean. This is a different king from Sagara Aikshvakava,
A weak clue who this Sagara is, may be retrieved from this Shloka from the Mahabharata, Udyogaparva 4.19, describing an episode with Duryodhana:
brhadbalo mahaujaashcha baahuH parapuranjayaH |
samudraseno raajaa ca saha putreNa viiryavaan ||19||
Brhadbala, who is very powerful, and king Bahu, who is the victor over enemies cities,
great warrior king Samudrasena, with his son.
Brhadbala is the king of Kosala. Here we have a king Bahu, a king Samudrasena (Sagara?) and his son. Perhaps this sequence has led to a sequence of the Second Episode. This Bahu who is para-puranjaya (victor over enemies cities or a Puranjaya over others. Puranjaya is the name of a Kakutstha Aikshvakava).
Pramana Khanda iv.43 gives this information about a Samudrasena:
samudrasena-rajye tu ganga-sagara-sangame |
kirtayitva harim devi campahattam jagama ha ||
In Maharaja Samudrasena's kingdom where the Ganges meets the ocean,
after having performed Hari-kirtana ,(the Lord) then went to Campahatta, O Devi.

This Samudrasena must be connected with Sagara as Harivamsha 1.14 says:
tasya chArayataH saH ashvaH samudre pUrva-dakShiNe |
velA samIpe apahR^ito bhUmiM chaiva praveshitaH || 1-14-22
While that horse is being moved around provinces it reached the south-easterly zone, and at seashore indra abducted that horse and hid it underneath the earth.
prAdAt cha tasmai bhagavAn hariH nArAyaNo varAn |
akShayaM vaMsham ikShvAkoH kIrtiM cha api anivartanIm || 1-14-27
putraM samudraM cha vibhuH svarga vAsaM tathA akShayam |
putrANAM cha akShayAn lokAn tasya ye chakShuShA hatAH || 1-14-28
shrIhari donning the role of sage kapila accorded boons to those four sons of sagara, saying "let there be eternality for ikshvAku dynasty, let that dynasty have an unvarying renown, let samudra, ocean-god, take birth in your lineage, let you all have unreduced stay in heave, let your brothers too, burnt by the heat if my eyes, have eternal abode in heaven..."

[Sagara and SE ocean is also narrated in Ramayana 1.40]
Thus, the Harivamsha provides us with a crucial clue that 4 branches of Sagaras were main Saagara Aikshvakavas, and that 1 Sagara branch gave a Samudra(sena) Saagara as progenitor. It is this Samudra(sena) Saagara, a later Sagara, or his descendant who is connected with the Second Sagara Episode, with the Pancaganas consisting of Kambojas, Yavanas, Shakas, Pahlavas and others = Paradas.

**Hauma Hamiddha** · 09-11-2008, 09:31 AM

"humbhA" of the cow is a stobha that used in gANa-s of the jaiminIya sAmaveda. In the soma ritual there is a long gAna composed on indraM id gathino bR^ihat... where the stobha-s humbhA are inserted as the "roar of the vR^iShabha". It is possible that vAlmIki had that in mind.

Bodhi · (This post was last modified: 09-11-2008, 05:45 PM by Bodhi.)

Mbh version is much more detailed, and then there are some stark differences between Mbh and Ramayana. Interestingly, (If I remember it right), kamboja-s are NOT mentioned in the Mbh version, which find place in rAmAyaNa version. On the other hand, several other tribes are enumerated in Mbh version -- kerala-s, khAsa-s etc. there are also some differences in the organs from which some of the tribes are mentioned to emerge.

I will hazard a speculation. vAlmIki's description of nandinI event to me appears like a retold version of what was recorded in the Adiparvan of Mbh. Or both derived from some common earlier source.

09-14-2008, 05:23 PM

How accurate is this:
INDEPENDENT DETERMINATION OF THE DATE OF CHANDRAGUPTA II VIKRAMADITYA USING ASTRONOMICAL METHOD AND DISCUSSIONS ON SETHNA'S DATES OF INDIAN HISTORY
Dating Ramayana
INDEPENDENT DETERMINATION OF THE BEGINNING OF THE GUPTA ERA USING ASTRONOMICAL METHOD AND RELIGIOUS BELIEF OF CHANDRAGUPTA II VIKRAMADITYA

Bodhi · (This post was last modified: 09-14-2008, 10:24 PM by Bodhi.)

Viren,

I just went through the first link about dating of Chandragupta II. Dr. A. Sharan is a supporter of the 'text-book' history of Gupta-era, whereas in contrast Dr. Sethna is the leading light of a new school which wants to see the available facts in a radically new light and has successfully argued against many of the standard historical beliefs we have been taught to have been actually false. For example Dr. Sethna shows that chANakya-maurya empire must have existed BEFORE the invasion of Alexander. Or for example, the possibility of multiple Ashoka-s in the mauryan dynasty alone, or the pillars-edicts of the great Ashoka to have been from several different "Ashoka" kings calling themselves by different names as well - devapiya, piyadassI etc, on different occasions... All these theories are still in infancy but do have a solid potential of forcing us to shift back the dating of historical events the way we have been taught all the while (and supported by Dr. Sharan).

Shambhu · (This post was last modified: 09-24-2008, 11:59 PM by Shambhu.)

http://dikgaj.wordpress.com/indian-history...ity-propaganda/

Good site, espcially on how Romilla Thapar's claims are just cherry-picked events maliciously stitched together to give a false picture of Indic history.

The other links on History Carnival-9
http://www.varnam.org/blog/

09-28-2008, 02:41 PM

The Yavana references seem to be very important to date the epics, Panini etc. The word is treated as an established equivalent of Greeks, referring to Ionians. And it is given as a Sanskrit loan word from another language preferably through the Achaemenid Persian form Yauna.

F. Brighenti, based upon A.K. Narain, came with 3 items to conjecture a presence of Greeks in Bactria:
1. deportation of Ionians
2. deportation of Milesians
3. presence of Greek coins (Athenian owls)

He cited A.K. Narain and T. McEvilley who both refer to The History of Herodotus, chapter vi. But, I checked chapter vi of Herodotus at http://ebooks. adelaide. edu.au/h/ herodotus/ h4/book6. html, which says something different about the so-called [deduced] Ionian and Milesian deportation to Bactria issue. I have consulted the translations of Rawlinson (and Macaulay):

I. Ionian issue
From A.K. Narain, _The Indo-Greeks_ , Oxford, Claredon Press, 1957:
"There is evidence to show that the Greeks of various city-states in Asia Minor were sometimes threatened by the Persians with exile to the far eastern portions of the Achaemenid empire [fn. 4: Herodotus VI. 9] and were actually settled in those areas [fn. 5: Besides the colonies of the Thracians (?) at Nysa and of the Branchidae in Sogdiana, we know from Herodotus, IV. 204, that a colony of Libyans from Barca was settled in Bactria]" (p. 3).

This is what Herodotus has to say in chapter VI:

"After this the Ionians inquired of him for what reason he had so strongly urged Aristagoras to revolt from the king, thereby doing their nation so ill a service. In reply, he took good care not to disclose to them the real cause, but told them that King Darius had intended to remove the Phoenicians from their own country, and place them in Ionia, while he planted the Ionians in Phoenicia, and that it was for this reason he sent Aristagoras the order. Now it was not true that the king had entertained any such intention, but Histiaeus succeeded hereby in arousing the fears of the Ionians."

NOTE: Here Herodotus only mentions an intended threat. But it clearly says too: `Now it was not true that the king had entertained any such intention'. Besides, the false intention at this place is about deportation to Phoenicia and not far eastern portions!

"Hold forth to them the promise that, if they submit, no harm shall happen to them on account of their rebellion; their temples shall not be burnt, nor any of their private buildings; neither shall they be treated with greater harshness than before the outbreak. But if they refuse to yield, and determine to try the chance of a battle, threaten them with the fate which shall assuredly overtake them in that case. Tell them, when they are vanquished in fight, they shall be enslaved; their boys shall be made eunuchs, and their maidens transported to Bactra; while their country shall be delivered into the hands of foreigners."
Thus spake the Persians."

NOTE: The text speaks here about a massacre of males, except boys becoming eunuchs. And the threat here is about girls to be sent to Bactria.

"And now their generals made good all the threats wherewith they had menaced the Ionians before the battle. For no sooner did they get possession of the towns than they choose out all the best favoured boys and made them eunuchs, while the most beautiful of the girls they tore from their homes and sent as presents to the king, at the same time burning the cities themselves, with their temples. Thus
were the Ionians for the third time reduced to slavery; once by the Lydians, and a second, and now a third time, by the Persians."

NOTE: The girls are sent to the king, not to Bactria. No mention anywhere about males to be sent to Bactria.

"At this time the Persians did no more hurt to the Ionians; but on the contrary, before the year was out, they carried into effect the following measures, which were greatly to their advantage. Artaphernes, satrap of Sardis, summoned deputies from all the Ionian cities, and forced them to enter into agreements with one another, not to harass each other by force of arms, but to settle their disputes by reference. He likewise took the measurement of their whole country in parasangsâsuch is the name which the Persians give to a distance of thirty furlongsâand settled the tributes which the several cities were to pay, at a rate that has continued unaltered from the time when Artaphernes fixed it down to the present day. The rate was very nearly the same as that which had been paid before the revolt. Such were the peaceful dealings of the Persians with the Ionians."
â¦
When Mardonius, accompanied by this numerous host, reached Cilicia, he took ship and proceeded along shore with his fleet, while the land army marched under other leaders towards the Hellespont. In the course of his voyage along the coast of Asia he came to Ionia; and here I have a marvel to relate which will greatly surprise those Greeks who cannot believe that Otanes advised the seven conspirators to make Persia a commonwealth. Mardonius put down all the despots
throughout Ionia, and in lieu of them established democracies.

NOTE: Ionia still survived under Persian hegemony. Persian inscriptions always place Yaunas and Yauna Takbaras in the west! Nowhere a Yauna or Ionian Greek satrapy is placed in the east. Herodotus too doesn't state, that Ionian (girls) were deported to Bactria, which was really the case with the Lybians in iv.209,:
"The furthest point of Libya reached by this Persian host was the
city of Euesperides. The Barcaeans carried into slavery were sent
from Egypt to the king; and Darius assigned them a village in Bactria
for their dwelling-place. To this village they gave the name of
Barca, and it was to my time an inhabited place in Bactria."

The deportation of Ionian (girls) to Bactria is a myth, nowhere reported to be actually carried out as stated by Herodotus himself. Herodotus would have mentioned a Yauna (or Mileasian) deportation, as was the case with the Barcaeans, if it was a reality.
A.K. Narain's statement about Ionians is not based upon Herodotus, it is a mere (false) conjecture. Probably having in mind the equation or identification hat 'Yavana must always be a Ionian'.

I. Milesian issue
"The Achaemenians established settlements of Asiatic Greeks in Bactria. Among the Greeks settled in Bactria were the citizens of Miletus who were relocated after the destruction of that city for its fomenting the Ionian revolution in 499" (T. McEvilley, The Shape of Ancient Thought: Comparative Studies in Greek and Indian Philosophies, New York, Allworth Press, 2002, p. 8).

NOTE: Herodotus nowhere mentions their real deportation to Bactria in chapter VI. He rather says something different too here:

"I shall set down the portion which concerned the Argives when I come to that part of my History, mentioning at present only the passage in which the absent Milesians were spoken of. This passage was as follows:â
Then shalt thou, Miletus, so oft the contriver of evil,
Be, thyself, to many a least and an excellent booty:
Then shall thy matrons wash the feet of long-haired masters-
Others shall then possess our lov'd Didymian temple.
Such a fate now befell the Milesians; for the Persians, who wore their hair long, after killing most of the men, made the women and children slaves; and the sanctuary at Didyma, the oracle no less than the temple was plundered and burnt; of the riches whereof I have made frequent mention in other parts of my History.

Those of the Milesians whose lives were spared, being carried prisoners to Susa, received no ill treatment at the hands of King Darius, but were established by him in Ampe, a city on the shores of the Erythraean sea, near the spot where the Tigris flows into it.
Miletus itself, and the plain about the city, were kept by the Persians for themselves, while the hill-country was assigned to the Carians of Pedasus."

NOTE: Where does Herodotus say that the Milesians were sent to Bactria? They were sent to Susa and then to a southern city where the Tigris flows.

CONCLUSION: The whole deportation issue of Milesian or Ionian (girls) to Bactria is a false statement, not supported by Herodotus. He clearly notes that Barcaeans were given a village in Bactria after their own name. But nothing of that sort has been noted about Ionian or Mileasian Greeks!

There may have been some Greek traders or settlers in Bactria (connected with the The Athenian 'owls' silver coins), but that is unconnected with and far removed from Ionians or Greeks founding a Yavana Janapada (not in Bactria, but possibly in Kandahar). Neither Greek nor Persian sources (never place any satrap
Yauna in the east) do support this. And Indian sources give an indigenous origin to Yavanas.

The homonyms Yavana (Skt) and Yauna (P)-Ionia (Gk), etc. are unrelated. Paninian Bhasha or Laukika Sanskrit "yavana" goes back to Chandasa Sanskrit Javana. The Mahabharata still uses the old Vedic word javana.
Perhaps the next fantasy would be to treat the indigenousGlaukanoi as offsprings of one Ionian Greek named Glaukos settled in the Panjab.
Greeks entering Yavana Janapada took the Yavana identity, and were treated as Yavanas.

In a forthcoming posting, I will examine Javana (26x), Yavana (25x) and Yauna (1x) all three occurring in the Mahabharata. The surprising occurrence of the form Yauna coupled with Kamboja and Gandhara can be found in the late Shantiparva. The late form Yauna, from the older form Yavana (derived from archaic Javana), is the intermediate form leading to the Pali form Yona (attested in the Assalayana Sutta of the Majjhima Nikaya, referring to the 5th-4th century BCE). The form Yona for Yavanas is never met with in the epics, the single late (Pkt) form Yauna which predates a further development into Yona only underlines that Yavana is never a loanword or a backformation from Persian Yauna, but simply an indigenous word, with a regular indigenous word development. The two words, Yavana (Skt) and Yauna (P), are unrelated.

This will have its consequences for dating Panini, based upon this Yavana issue, after the Persian conquest of Gandhara and assuming that the Persians gave the Indians the word Yavana.

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