Christian Subversion And Missionary Activities - 5

09-24-2008, 01:15 PM

Muslims will go complain to Pakistan and Saudis. Christians will go complain to Us and Europe. Where do the Hindus go when they are deprived of their rights in their own country.

09-24-2008, 08:02 PM

Two blind men guiding each other..should be in the funny thread.
Discuss religious freedom with Dr Singh, Bush told

09-24-2008, 08:02 PM

Two held for conversion bid
QUOTEhe Ulsoor police have arrested two persons, including a U.S. national, on charges of attempting religious conversion, on Monday night. They have been remanded in judicial custody.

Ivie Cannon (24) and Valluri (28) have been accused for offences under Sections 295 (a) (deliberate and malicious acts intended to outrage religious feelings) and 298 (uttered words with deliberate intention to wound religious feelings) of the Indian Penal Code.


QUOTEThe police said Mr. Cannon, along with his other associates, was allegedly engaged in door-to-door conversion campaign at Muniswamy Appa Road, Jogupalaya, Ulsoor and surrounding areas. By offering money and other valuables, the accused were allegedly forcing the locals to visit churches and convert to their community.

09-24-2008, 08:04 PM

Newlife Christian Prayer meets abuse Hindus
QUOTENewlife Christian Prayer meets abuse Hindus
By R Guru Prasad in Mangalore

When ex-prime minister and JD(S) supremo H.D. Deve Gowda and Mallikarjuna Kharge, a senior Congress leader, tried to take political advantage of the situation by visiting the damaged prayer halls, Hindus stopped them to show their damaged house and other belongings. This clearly shows that large number of Hindus are also affected in the attack by Christians. Rumours are thick in the air that some Muslim fundamentalist outfits have joined the Christians in attacking the Hindus, to fight Bajrang Dal and Sri Rama Sena, an active Hindu outfit in Mangalore. Though communal violence is common in Mangalore, the recent Christian violence against Hindus is something new. Usually trivial incidents like teasing, burning crackers for celebrating Pakistan's victory in the cricket matches, eloping or the big incidents like organising yatras, religious procession etc used to trigger communal violence.

Newlife, one of the 20 missionary centres, belongs to Karnataka Missions Network and started missionary activities six years ago in coastal areas of Dakshin Kannada District. It is actively propagating Christianity in Karnataka, other states and also in few foreign countries through publications, advertisements and through www.newlifevoice.org website. It started publishing and distributing literature Yesu Suvarthe containing glories of Jesus among Christians in Kannada language. But over the period of years locals felt that Newlife was indulging in conversions by alluring the gullible people by offering money, job, medical aid, vehicle etc. What irked the Hindus is that Newlife started distributing their literatures to Hindus to entice them to convert to Christianity. A local person told this correspondent that Newlife started giving instructions to newly converted people to abandon wearing tilak on forehead, not to visit and offer prayers at the Hindu temples, replacing the photos and idols of Hindu Gods and Goddesses with Cross etc. This was the beginning for creating disturbance in the peace-loving society.

With more and more gullible people falling prey to this organisation, Newlife went one step ahead in deriding the Hindu Gods and Goddesses by disdaining Lord Krishnaâmarried to thousands of women (characterless), Ganapatiârests in water after the puja (useless), Kaliâwearing skulls all around the neck (ugly) etc., in their pamphlets, CDs and book Satya Darshini. Bangalore North MP, H.T.Sangliana, who is the guardian of Karnataka Missions Network, said that he will lodge a complaint against Newlife if there is an evidence with Bajrang Dal. The local public mentioned that "the method used by Christian missionaries in converting is like a network or multilevel marketing technique used by MNCs. In the first place they appoint young people by giving them a salary of Rs 4000 to 4500. They will go around meeting the gullible people in market areas, in buses etc., become friends and take them to church to introduce to the father there. Upon introduction they will be paid Rs 2500 per person. Pursuing with them and taking them to Velankanni Church, in Tamil Nadu, they get Rs. 3000. Further follow-up with them and finally conversion to Christianity by changing the name, they get an incentive of Rs 10000 onwards. The more they convert the more bonus points are added. The whole Hindu community is upset because of this."

More and more Hindus belonging to dominant castes like Brahmins and Vokkaligas have already converted to Christianity in Mangalore and hence their friends and relatives are naturally angry with churches. On Tuesday, the day of Mangalore bandh was called by Sri Rama Sena, protesting the stabbing of their leader on Monday by masked men, there was a network of sms, telling the Christians to respect Hindu sentiments. A few of them read: "Catholic or Newlife respect culture of this land. Don't think tolerance of Hindus as their weakness. If we can give land and stone to build churches, we can also pelt and break the same churches. Hindu society fully back Bajrangi guys who are retaliating in Mangalore and the surrounding regions on the issue of publications of denigrating and wrong information about Hindu Gods."

Karnataka Chief Minister Shri B.S. Yeddyurappa said his government will not tolerate forcible conversions and will take stringent action against missionaries involved in conversions. He also said that his government will investigate about the funds received by churches and other Christian missionaries by issuing a memo to ascertain the credibility of the churches in Karnataka. He further added that the government will take action against those indulging in arson.

**acharya** · 09-24-2008, 08:09 PM

'Vested interests are hitting back at Christians'
QUOTEThe Catholic Secular Forum, a Mumbai-based NGO, has been in the forefront of protests against attacks against the Christian community in Orissa, Karnataka and other parts of the country.

CSF General Secretary Joseph Dias, was part of a citizens' delegation that called on the President and other politicians in New Delhi [Images] last moth, urging the Union government to use its powers to stop the attacks.

Dias, who says that he has travelled to almost all the places where Christians have been attacked and seen the horror of the attacks, spoke to rediff.com.Â

Are the Mangalore and Orissa incidents turf battles between right-wing Hindutva and Christian forces?

The attacks on the Christian community are not restricted only to Mangalore or Orissa, but have spread to other states like Madhya Pradesh [Images], Kerala [Images], Chhattisgarh and even the national capital. They are military-like operations, carried out with clinical precision and are brutal, with no discrimination -- sparing, neither clergy, women nor children. The objectives are manifold -- consolidation of the Hindu vote, polarisation of the majority and minorities, demonising the community, crippling Christians economically. These attacks, when they happen in Bharatiya Janata Party-ruled states, are nothing short of government-sponsored terrorism, while in other places it is sheer mobocracy, using brute force, with the authorities unable to act because of political compulsions of not getting on the wrong side of the majority.

Why do you feel Christians are being targeted now across India?

The vested political and economic interests are hitting back with vengeance. Christians are sitting ducks, where no or negligible retaliation expected. The Church works in areas, where even the government dares not to go because it is not profitable. The Church's education, healthcare and social services in these backward areas has empowered the weak, poor and deprived vested interests of vote banks and cheap labour. The emancipation through education, healthcare, awareness of alternatives and provision of opportunities have set the oppressed classes free from the clutches of the upper caste or rich Hindus and slavery of their political masters. These interests are therefore hitting back at the Christians to maintain their hold on those, whom they have been exploiting since ages.

What is your answer to criticism that the Church lures the poor by offering them money?

We condemn those indulging in conversion by force or inducement. Catholics do not accept a conversion, unless it comes from the heart. But the saffron brigade raises this bogey, since in believes in (Nazi propaganda chief Joseph) Geobbels's principle of repeating a lie umpteen times, so that it will stickmay be he forgot that it was the holy pope himself who was with nazis/ facists. Another ploy is to divide us into Catholics and Protestants, so that they can divide and rule. This makes it easy for Hindutva radicals to take the remaining Christian population. Those who criticise groups that convert by inducement, must realise that an individual, who converts, will do so only if he finds his previous religion with limitations and Christianity a better faith.

Do Christian talk of the re-conversion or ghar wapsi programmes of the Hindu fundamentalists? Not so far. But I think we must now. There gifts and incentives are given to people to return to the Hindu fold.

Do you see a larger design behind the targeting of Christians?

The larger design is political domination and economic supremacy. The Hindutvawadis will stop at nothing -- murder, carnage, destruction, human rights abuse, subverting the rule of law and the Constitution of the country.

Politically, with the beginning of an era of coalitions and with Lok Sabha and assembly polls round the corner, it is do or die for the BJP and its allies. They want power at any cost and ideologies take a backseat. It is target either Christians or Muslims and this the BJP believes will take them to Parliament. The Gujarat model has become a showcase for replication in Hindutva laboratories all over the country. The BJP knows that secular parties like the Congress and to an extent even the Left and regional parties will not be able to take a stand against the majority (80 percent) and in favour of the minorities (20 percent), so the opportune time to strike is now.

Are conversions at the centre of the violence, or do you see a different ploy behind it?

Even the saffron brigade knows that there are no conversions worthy of mention happening. There are at least five states, which have anti-conversion laws, but not a single case of forceful or induced conversion has been proved. And many of these states are BJP ruled, but they have not been able to nail Christians on this count. In fact, in some states the police and administration are used to reconvert Christians to Hinduism and even tribals, who have a religion of their own.

Incentives, besides our health, education and social service institutions over the centuries could have converted millions of poor and downtrodden into Christianity. If that was the case, the Christian population would have shot up and not declined to around 2 percent. Further, why would even affluent non-Christians flock to our institutions (schools, hospitals) if they were convinced that they ran the risk of conversion? The saffron brigade is frustrated that even the Hindus are not buying their story of conversion, and has resorted to a vulgar public display of brute force.

Why now, you think? Is there an element of timing behind the violence?

The elections decided the timing of attacks on Christians. It never happened so far to Christians in India. Since Independence, it happened with Muslims in the run-up to various elections and stopped thereafter. The Hindutvawadis have managed to marginalise the Muslims, who now live on the periphery of the national mainstream. It is the saffron brigade's heart-felt desire to do the same with Christians. It is now or never for them.

Share with us the details of your fact-finding missions.

I have been to most districts affected by the anti-Christian violence in India and I can claim to be among the few to have done so. I have spoken to hundreds and listened to almost a thousand victims. The stories are horrifying. My feelings from ground zero have been so traumatic that I just could not sleep since then. Last week, it was the three priests with whom I stayed when I visited Orissa, who gave me sleepless nights, seeing them brutally injured. But what brought tears to my eyes were the helpless cloistered sisters in Mangalore, who were attacked. We met cardinals, bishops, pastors, priests and lay leaders in many places, across the country. Their plight moved me. It is not the government that rules the roost in most states - the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh and the Bajrang Dal do. And this is only the beginning.

The Karnataka government initially announced a Corps of Detectives level inquiry. Are you happy with it?

It is a big sham. The role of the Karnataka government is implicit -- as in the case of Orissa. It has blood on its hands -- innocent blood. The conclusions of the inquiry can be easily predicted and the Christian community is not foolish to fall for it and expect something. The police atrocities on women and Christians are well documented and presented to the national commissions for women, minorities and human rights. There is no need for any other inquiry, which will have no credibility and whitewash the sins of the government. Christians will boycott it.

What do you expect from the government, both at the state level and at the Centre?

The Union government should intervene instead of mouthing platitudes. I met the President and a number of VIPs in the national capital, who all beyond condemning the attacks did nothing else.

We would now expect that:

1. Communalism is treated as a crime against the state, like terrorism and made a non-bailable offence. Mob terror is equal, if not worse than bomb terror.

2. Government compensation and relief for all victims, including reconstructing churches and Christian institutions, which are presently not sanctioned.

3. Enactment of legislation on the lines of the Prevention of Atrocities on SC/ST Act, to protect minorities from the brute force of the majority.

4. Moving law and order from the state list to the concurrent list so that the Union government can intervene.

5. Permit an independent inquiry by international human rights organisations into the anti-Christian attacks and foreign funding.

6. A CBI probe into the source of foreign and Indian contributions to the RSS-VHP-Bajrang Dal troika and related organisations.what about money received by churches so that they can buy poor INDIAN souls

What do you have to say about the official response to the violence?

The official response was pathetic, to say the least, especially from the United Progressive Alliance. The governments in at least five states behaved as expected -- either participating in the act or turning a Nelson's eye, when push came to shove. Innocents have been arrested and persecuted, while relief or compensation will never come through. In fact, some states have not allowed even Christians to provided succour to their own and instead are conducting an inquiry into the foreign contributions to Christian NGOs.

There is a lot of talk that the Maoists and the Church share a common cause, which is at the root of the violence in Orissa. What do you have to say about it?

The only thing common between Maoists/Naxalites and the Church seem to be their concern for the backward and exploited classes. However, the means differ drastically and there is no meeting ground. In Orissa and places where Maoists/Naxalites have struck a chord among tribals or exploited classes, it is because the government has failed in its duties towards the citizens. The Maoists/Naxalites are also known not to allow religion to divide people, besides believing in equitable distribution of resources. Hence, attacks on communalists and the dominating classes/castes are justified and the only way out.

New Life has been blamed for the conversions in Mangalore. Is it part of the church?

The New Life movement is part of the Christian Church, not Catholic, which is tremendously popular for its evangelical approach. Faith healings, non-ritualistic approach to religion and involving believers in prayer and worship, which are popular have ensured a huge following for New Life and other such groups. These have been falsely blamed in the conflict.

Have the Hindutva elements been emboldened by the BJP government in Karnataka?

Of course. In fact, until the BJP formed the government in Karnataka or Orissa, there was no report of religious violence. In order to remain in power and pander to its supporters the BJP has had to play the Hindu card. It also has to pay back the Hindutva troika for getting it into power and so these elements thrive in BJP ruled states. It is a case of one feeding off the other -- a symbiotic relationship.

Has the government response to the violence against churches been adequate? Do Christians feel threatened in Karnataka or Orissa?

The governments, at the Centre nor in the states, have not responded at all. Christians are relying on the Lord to protect them, as he always has, besides looking up to fellow Christians to stand by them. We believe and history is witness that whenever Christians were persecuted, the Church has emerged stronger and triumphed.

Is there any reason for the Catholic Church to express solidarity in situations where it is not involved? New Life or the Southern Baptists have no connection with the Catholic Church? And they are organisations whose activities the Catholic Church may not have knowledge of?

There are many reasons for the Catholic Church to express solidarity with Christian churches -- we don't call them Protestants. It is also a lie to say that the Catholic and mainline Protestant churches do not believe in proselytising today. In fact, in keeping with the Great Commission as urged for by Jesus himself in the Bible (Go forth into the world and preach the Good News to all creation - Mark 16:15) that every Christian -- Catholic or Protestant -- is duty bound to do so. The Catholic church has a special 'Congregation for the Evangelisation of Peoples', dedicated solely to this task. Pope Benedict XVI himself appointed Cardinal Ivan Dias, earlier Archbishop of Mumbai to be 'Prefect' of this world body, signifying the importance attached to conversion by the Holy Father. Can the mainline Protestant churches, who believe in the same Jesus and his word, Bible be any different?

It is ridiculous to imagine that there could be any debate on a matter of faith, as basic as this. Catholics and Protestants of all hues, if they are Christians stand united on the issue of conversion, also guaranteed by the Indian constitutional right to preach, propagate and practice the religion of one's choice. Catholics have the best of relations with other Christian groups -- be they New Life or Southern Baptists -- for Jesus' prayer to God, the Father was -- that they may all be one.

**acharya** · 09-24-2008, 08:11 PM

From another forum

QUOTE<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("vsudhir")Its no secret unkil has half (maybe more) of our neta-babu class by the bawls. Practically everybody and his uncle (pun unintended) has relations in massaland. Am sure in the intell services and other such sensitive postings in the babucracy, vulnerability on account of familial, commercial or other ties to foreign pressure would be a factor. Time to expand that scope to include much more, perhaps. Unkil is not the benign power I mistakenly took it to be as little as 2 yrs ago before BRF gyana-varsham happened to me. The implications are truly scary. A strong india anchored in its own indic worldview isn't in western interests. So what, what are they gonna do about it, I'd thiought. Well, I can now see what they're doing about it. They've tied up any successful desi response in knots by owning the debate, the media, the awards, even high elected offices..... Things will get worse before they get better, am sure. If they get better, that is.

America is currently the most dangerous country for India. It has opened various fronts in its aim to weaken and break India into small parts. The fronts include financial and armed support to Maoists, Dalit liberation movements, awards to Jholawalas and communist historians, trying to pry open our universities for American professors, funding to American evangelical churches with a nudge to them to expand their network in India, indirect support to Muslim organisations, support to ISI against India, stuffing American arms down india's throat to make us dependent on spare parts, and grabbing vulnerable nations around India such as Nepal to surround us from all sides. For long, it is trying to dislodge Burmese govt. too, but unsuccessful till now. I would strongly suggest to Indian government to keep a watch on the movement of American citizens and diplomats in India and not allow them to penetrate every inch of the land and open counslates in every town if you want this country to exist.
</div>

Shambhu · 09-24-2008, 11:38 PM

Church attack in Kerala, A Christian under arrest
23/09/2008 14:15:04 HK

Kochi : Police arrested a Christian named Elias in connection with the attack on Churches near NedumbasseryInternationalAirport.

Investigative officers are tight lipped over the whole arrest and questioned Church priests and Church Security as well in connection with the same.

The visual and print media who ran sensational stories to link Hindu organisations with the attack along with Pinarai Vijayan is not uttering a word since the arrest of Elias â A laity of the Jacobite church !

http://www.haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx...eID=7131&SKIN=K

dhu · (This post was last modified: 09-25-2008, 01:07 AM by dhu.)

QUOTE(acharya @ Sep 24 2008, 08:11 PM)America is currently the most dangerous country for India. It has opened various fronts in its aim to weaken and break India into small parts. The fronts include financial and armed support to Maoists, Dalit liberation movements, awards to Jholawalas and communist historians, trying to pry open our universities for American professors, funding to American evangelical churches with a nudge to them to expand their network in India, indirect support to Muslim organisations, support to ISI against India, stuffing American arms down india's throat to make us dependent on spare parts, and grabbing vulnerable nations around India such as Nepal to surround us from all sides. For long, it is trying to dislodge Burmese govt. too, but unsuccessful till now. I would strongly suggest to Indian government to keep a watch on the movement of American citizens and diplomats in India and not allow them to penetrate every inch of the land and open counslates in every town if you want this country to exist.


American actions are simply a continuation of British colonial policy (creation of Dravidianist movement, etc).

**acharya** · 09-25-2008, 02:48 AM

Is the talk about religious conversions just a decoy?

Sudipto Mondal

âIt is an agenda of fundamentalists, reacting to it makes us play into their handsâ

âDespite allegations of conversions, Christians form a paltry 2.34 per cent of Indiaâs populationâ

There have been conversions to Buddhism and Jainism too, says an expert

MANGALORE: If the recent attacks on churches and Christian institutions in Orissa, Madhya Pradesh, Karnataka are any proof, Hindutva activists in the country are unambiguously pointing a questioning finger at the institution of religious conversions.

But, intellectuals feel that instead of answering the question, it is time to question the basis of the reasoning. Hyderabad-based Dalit scholar and author of âWhy I am not a Hinduâ Kancha Ilaya says: âThere is a set of very easy answers to the question of conversions.â He feels that before rushing out to answer those questions, it is wiser to stop and ponder for a moment. âWe must ask these fundamental forces what gives them the right to raise this question,â he says.

Echoing Mr. Ilaya is Delhi-based thinker and social scientist G. Aloysius,

He says: âI refuse to be drawn into a debate about religious conversions. It is an agenda set by a group of fundamentalists and reacting to it only makes us play into their hands.â By questioning the legitimacy of conversions, the Hindutva forces were attempting at enticing the civil society into a debate. âIt is an illegitimate debate,â says Ilaya.

Advocate Clifton Rozario, who works with the Alternative Law Forum, says, âIt is a constitutional right to every individual. Who are we to even begin a debate on it?â Providing a more empirical perspective Mr. Rozario says: âAfter 2000 years of Christianity in India, the population of Christians in this country is a mere 2.34 per cent of its population. In Karnataka, according to the 2001 census, the population of Christians is only 1.9 per cent of the Stateâs population.â

Reacting to the oft refrain that Dalits and adivasis are the ones getting converted, he says, âEven as we speak, a Dalit Bahujan or adivasi is getting converted to Buddhism in this country. It has been going on since the times of Buddha and it was later given a strong push by B.R. Ambedkar.â

âIf after all these years the population of Christians is so low, then either that the Christian missionaries were doing a very bad job or that converting people was not their main agenda,â he says.

**acharya** · 09-25-2008, 02:50 AM

Growing religious fanaticism cause for concern

Govind D. Belgaumkar

People in Dakshina Kannada are believed to be âextra-sensitiveâ to communal feelings

The Hindu-Christian conflict is a new development in the region

Political patronage to fascist groups is blamed for communal disturbances

â Photo: PTI

VANDALISM: Scenes such as these were common in Mangalore after the recent communal conflicts.

MANGALORE: There is a common belief that people in and around Mangalore are a little extra-sensitive communally than elsewhere in the State. A top police official, who visited the city after the recent attacks on churches and prayer halls in the region, felt that the âcommon beliefâ was not unfounded.

Known for Hindu-Muslim disturbances hitherto, the region sprung a surprise with the recent Hindu-Christian disturbances that unfolded from a string attacks on prayers halls and a backlash that saw Christians targeting the policemen. Keen observers with secular outlook attribute this to a range of reasons â from the typical economy of the region to the political encouragement to fascist forces; from masking of pluralism of religions to unfounded belief that religions are in danger, from Stateâs abdication of its responsibility to false and unwanted propaganda material. Some see turbulent times ahead but many see a ray of hope for better days.

According to P.L. Dharma, Head of the Department of Political Science, Mangalore University, people who are culturally vibrant make a living on their own terms. But, in advancing social, cultural, economic and educational life of the region, they show little interest for issues such as better neighbourhood and social integrity. The result, Mr. Dharma said, was a high degree of political immaturity. He cited the example of roads languishing without attention, partly owing to apathy of officials and grossly because people failed to protest against such conditions. âPeople tend to be emotional on trivial issues. This immaturity is intelligently being exploited by political forces. The solution lies in developing a political maturity and happy days are not far away,â Prof. Dharma said.

According to former chairman of Konkani Academy Eric Ozario, there is nothing wrong with the psychology of the people of the region. He blames the recent developments on patronage of political parties to fascist forces, under one pretext or the other. âMinorities are forced to form self-defence groups, although it is a dangerous trend. It is time for the secular forces to defeat the fundamentalist designs of certain groups,â he said.

John Fernandes, professor and Head, Chair in Christianity, Mangalore University, finds âdeliberate attempts at disturbing peace in societyâ by political forces.

âA typical trait of the people of this region is their ardent love for Tulu, where Kannada is imposed,â pointed out professor of History in Mangalore University B. Surendra Rao. In a region âwith cultural backwater effect from Goa and Kerala, even âBearyâ language finds space. Unlike other regions, no community dominates the scene here.

The region has never seen an anti-caste movement. There were no big zamindars here. Yet, the psyche of people has undergone a change in the recent past.

The seeds of religious fanaticism have been sown. Indoctrination by religious groups has led to shrinking of mind and spirit of religions. False propaganda that a particular religion is under threat, and emergence of âpolitical Hinduism,â are taking a toll even as the future appears grim,â Prof. Rao said. The so-called secular political parties and the party that opposed pseudo-secularism had both failed the people. âSociety is learning its lessons the hard way,â he added.

People lived together for 23 centuries here, pointed out an industrialist and former president of Kanara Chamber of Commerce and Industries G. Giridhar Prabhu. He said, absence of conflict-confinement mechanism was to be blamed for the present situation.

âUnlike other regions, entire city has to take a beating each time there is a trouble as transporters withdraw buses. Absence of State transport and fear of suffering loss forces bus operators to go off the road,â he said.

According to Mr. Prabhu, the typical nature of the economy of the region, where every individual was an entrepreneur in his own right, and absence of State in every spear of life, had caused a sense of alienation. These factors could have led to a psyche that could be easily provoked. Social scientists should probe this aspect, he said.

Inspector General of Police (Western Range) A.M. Prasad said a polarisation along religious lines in the entire coastal Karnataka, more so in Dakshina Kannada, had taken shape.

He blamed religious influences and youth groups of different religions, who overreacted to trivial issues, for the present state of affairs. Elders should intervene in the matter, he added.

On the street, one can hardly meet a person, who does not express displeasure over the attacks on prayer halls and the three daysâ bandh that paralysed life. But nine out of 10 quickly add, âThey (Christians) should not convert, isnât it?â That, according to Prof. Rao, provides a peep into the psyche of the people.

Shambhu · 09-25-2008, 07:01 PM

See the last 2 lines above.

The people have much more brains than the author of the piece, who has religiously avoided talking about the christocult's instigatory material.

Shambhu · 09-25-2008, 09:37 PM

Conversions: Faith in the closet
Shreerang Godbole
http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplay...cle.aspx?id=125
excerpts..
How does one explain the curious paradox of an apparent spurt in conversion activities and a static, sometimes even declining Christian share in the population?
The answer becomes obvious when one takes the trouble of studying Christian strategy and statistics â statistics provided by authoritative mission documents. The 2001 report states that of the estimated 1.88 billion professing Christians worldwide, an estimated 124 million or 6.2% are crypto-Christians or those who conceal their faith.
Crypto-Christians are numerous in places where Christianity gets a taste of the maltreatment it usually metes out to others. Thus, Chinese law requires all churches to be registered with government-run Christian associations. Members of so-called underground churches are imprisoned, âre-educated,â and sometimes executed.The existence, indeed proliferation, of crypto-Christians in India is a fact acknowledged by the Church. The World Christian Trends (2001) has placed the number of persons affiliated to the Church in India at 62243546 or 6.1%. In short, the number of Christians in India is nearly thrice the official census figure! The document places the share of crypto-Christians in the total Christian population at a staggering 62%! in 2002, the American mission agency Global Mapping International asked Patrick Johnstone, author of Operation World, a prayer handbook which documents demographics and mission activity in many countries, to list the seven most encouraging trends of the 1990âs. âThe astonishing and mostly undocumented growth of the church in India - the official numbers (2.34% Christians in 1991) are far lower than the truth, deliberately hiding the true extent of Christianity in the nation. The true figures are certainly far more than double, and look like only the beginning. The âuntouchableâ Dalits have started leaving Hinduism, which could lead to an immense growth of Indian churchesâ was Johnstoneâs gleeful reply. So why do so many Christians in India conceal their faith, given that the rulers are Christian-friendly? The present Constitutional provision that limits the benefits available to Scheduled Castes only to Hindus (including Sikhs and Buddhists) is a major hurdle.
Dr. Shreerang Godbole is a Pune-based endocrinologist, social activist and author. He has contributed in making http://www.savarkar.org

09-26-2008, 11:51 AM

They tried to convert me!

By Richard Crasta, USA [ Published Date: September 25, 2008 ]

Why in the 21st Century "Conversion" is an Absurdity

After the attacks on Mangalore's Christian churches (and others in Karnataka), the leaders have (finally) spoken, rightly condemning the Hindutva/Bajrang Dal organizations and the complicit administration, and praising the peace-loving nature and charitable activities and institutions of the Indian Christian community.

What this Ordinary and Undistinguished Homo Sapiens has to contribute is a slightly different perspective: on conversions, and on what makes a Hindu or Christian a real Hindu or Christian.

Truly, I have been the victim of conversion attempts on more than a few occasions by Christians, and once by the Hare Krishnas of Boston, run by Euro-Americans. Indeed, next to Osama Bin Laden and ex-Commie Vladimir Putin, I am considered the most convertible heathen in the world by a very close relative of mine, a Christian who I would rather not name (for his health as well as mine). Seriously, though I am a Christian by birth, a semi-agnostic by conviction (or more precisely, the lack of strong religious conviction), and a Mangalorean Catholic by community and identity-meaning, that's what the Hindus and Christians around me in India would call me, or what I would call myself, when probed about my social identity, whether or not I regularly go to Church (and I don't) - still, this close relative and his friends have tried to convert me to his brand of evangelical, American-influenced (Sarah Palin kind of American), rather intolerant Christianity. His group, or people like him, used to be called "Charismatics" a decade or two ago, but they have recently been "radicalized" or made more "fundamentalist" in their beliefs (but who comprise only a small section of the diverse body of Indian Christians).

So black and white is this close relative's view of the world that he once called me the devil (it's nice to have some distinction!), and at another time called my writings Satanic (though luckily, these writings were prosaic, not verses). Perhaps my novel "The Revised Kama Sutra" did anger some Christians (most of whom had not read the book), as indeed it gave other Christians, Hindus, and heathens like me joy, because I try in my writings to tell my truth as bravely and straight as I can, and believe that if we all speak our truths and never resort to violence, we would all be better off (Gautama Buddha, after all, was once a Hindu who decided to rebel against his religion and speak his truth).

Converting me, then, would be a major success in this close relative's book: he would earn a reserved Balcony Seat in Heaven for that. And yet, even if had been more diplomatic and erudite and glibly persuasive, he has about as much chance of converting me as he has of converting the Sultan of Swat.

Because, as they say, you can take a horse to the water, but you cannot make him drink it. You can't "convert" people against their will, which is why the Spaniards and the Portuguese decimated most of the Indian natives of South America, realizing that any "conversion," when it occurred, was only cosmetic, a temporary yielding to superior firepower or the force of circumstances, which were then overwhelming. The moment the Spaniards turned their backs, most of the Indians went back to being who they really were: wild, free, and happy.

Now, even though Mangalore has been a historically tolerant town in which often, an autorickshaw or taxi would simultaneously sport Hindu, Christian and Muslim religious images or symbols, I don't doubt that some or most Hindus would be outraged by the doctrinaire assertions of some of the evangelically inclined Christian fringe. I myself am often outraged, flabbergasted, rendered speechless and sometimes burst out laughing. Sometimes, I try to counter with sane arguments about why they can't possibly know The Truth any better than I or anyone else can, and that merely because something is printed or contained in some book doesn't make it true (I should know: I write fiction sometimes, indeed most of the time). That many of these people don't have a broad-based education and
...how about simply doing good for goodness' sake, expecting no reward or gratitude....

haven't read widely doesn't help matters, but only makes them louder.
...how about simply doing good for goodness' sake, expecting no reward or gratitude....

And then, finally, I realize that laughter is the wisest choice, the sanest and healthiest choice. Laughter, and shutting your ears - and after a while, if the noise doesn't stop, and you can't laugh anymore, moving to a place where you can have peace, sane conversation, nature, beauty, and more laughter.

For me, most arguments between adherents of two different fundamentalist religious groups are absurd -like two people arguing about whether the teacup and saucer orbiting the sun between Jupiter and Saturn is of a blue or a green color. Neither of them, of course, having personally seen the said teacup and saucer.

But I'll tell you why my close relative and most fundamentalist Christians have zero chance of converting me, the same chance as a fundamentalist Hindu or Muslim (whereas Buddhists, who don't have fundamentalists among their number, might stand a marginally better chance).

Because to me, religion is not what you say it is. It's what you do. It's who you are as a human being. For example, if you try to convert me to Christianity, whose essence is love, charity, and compassion, and if you have not a charitable or loving bone in your body, it is as if you have disproved your own arguments.

A few months back, I was in desperate financial circumstances, and even lacked money for some essential medical care. But none of the ultra-religious members of my family came to my rescue, especially not my close relative, who had only a few months earlier been throwing money at the members and "pastors" of his fundamentalist sect. It was partly by accident that I ran into a sane Christian, meaning one level-headed, compassionate, intelligent, accomplished, and fair-minded Christian, who came to my rescue, approaching another similar Christian of means.

That's comforting and inspiring, that a value such as Christian charity, which is responsible for running orphanages and hospitals for the poor, is sometimes also to be found in a few individual Christians--though a very small fraction of those who call themselves Christian. And if either of these two persons were to approach me and ask me to put up a statue of Jesus or Mary in my apartment, I would gladly do so, out of respect for them, for their true charitableness. And I know they wouldn't demand that I pray to this statue, because they know that true love and true charity are unconditional. They are enlightened Christians; whereas the ones who preach and spout a virulent form of religion without practicing its fundamental ethical teachings are unenlightened boors.

Just because someone says they belong to this or that religion, it doesn't necessarily mean they are - to me, the label is meaningless, except for giving me some understanding of their background. Often, the loudest Christians are the most un-Christian people on earth (George Bush, for example), and no religion seems much good to me unless it remarkably improves the character, charitableness, and benevolence of spirit of the persons following it.

Therefore, arguments or brazen attempts to convert are useless, are doomed to failure. Much better that you so impress me by your character and your inspiring thoughts and actions that I ask you what is it that you believe in that makes you such a fine human being. At that point, if I am hugely impressed, I may ask for more information, and if it seems to make sense to my life and to my personality, I may ask to join your religion, without your having made a single attempt to convert me.

But most of us, in our everyday lives-and I, very much so-lag way behind our highest ideals, and our religion will remain largely talk, and the repetition of the words, mantras, and doctrines we have been taught by parents and teachers. Religion is just the dress we wear, on Sundays or when visiting the temple. But so long as people stick to argument or better, to discussions with civilized rules, courtesy, and time limits, that's fine with me.

Violence has absolutely no place in such a discussion, however. Thus the Bajrang Dal or whoever attacked churches and terrorized innocent Christians defeated their own argument, proving by their irreligious, unholy behavior that they are not worthy of being members of any religion, that any worthwhile and true religion would immediately disown them and their actions.

No doubt ignorance and politics played a part in what happened: the ignorance of the mob, which could not distinguish between two groups of people so different in character, temperament, and disposition, it would be as if someone were unable to distinguish between a Mafia thug and the Catholic cardinal of New York. And the politics of the few who have a stake in stoking anger and violence. And yet, as Christianity, like Buddhism, is a religion of compassion, this mob, and even harmless but deluded evangelical zealots, deserve some compassion as victims in turn-victims of a kind of brainwashing that they were not adequately equipped to resist, partly because our lowest common denominator education, which is a kind of brainwashing in itself, doesn't provide us the tools to resist brainwashing.

In this century, conversion by physical force is highly improbable except in a theocratic and fascist state, and any other kind of conversion-meaning, as an active, transitive verb, one person changing the religion of another person--is a logical absurdity. In other words, it is ultimately the horse's decision whether or not to drink the water being offered, no matter what the inducements or the persuasive means used.

In earlier centuries, conversions were often achieved by force; and when absolute monarchs changed their religion, the subjects often followed, either out of respect for the monarch or out of some feeling of compulsion, real or imaginary. Buddhism gained its initial following from Hindu converts; later on, most Indian Buddhists "re-converted" to Hinduism, while Buddhism spread to vast areas of Asia. Today, at least a few million Westerners follow some form of Hinduism or the other, whether or not they deem it as conversion; rare is the guru who shuts his door to such "converts."

In present times, some people convert themselves for personal advantage or as a practical consideration. For example, a Dutch man told me he "officially" had converted to Islam so he could marry his Muslim Indonesian girl friend. It was required by Indonesian law, and though he, like most Europeans today, was an agnostic/atheist, he did it simply as a practical matter, presenting himself at a mosque one day, getting "converted", and never returning to the mosque again. Also, if a woman or a man decides to get converted to the spouse's religion to overcome objections to the marriage by in-laws, that is also a practical recourse often by people who don't really mean it. It is not true conversion, and yet, in the modern age, we need to respect everyone's freedom to be any religion they choose; there is nothing we can do about this, no more than we can ban someone from wearing blue shirts or ban someone from falling in love with the adherent of a different religion.

All of which suggests that were someone to choose to change their religion, in a country like India, in which no one today can physically force others to change their religion, the circumstances must be either ones of self-interest (and everyone has the democratic right to pursue that within legal limits), or they must be so extraordinarily spiritual and personal that we need to respect the individual's democratic right and freedom to follow any form of religious belief (or unbelief) that they choose.

A Hindu friend had an even more advanced idea. He said, "Who is anyone to tell me that Jesus is not mine, or that Buddha is not mine? I am heir to all that is good in human history. Nobody owns Jesus or Buddha. Also, why should my religious identity be so important? I have so many other identities, and it is more important to me that I am a writer, a teacher, and a good father, than that I am a Hindu." He further said, "If my God is so great, then how can I possibly make him greater by having one or a hundred more persons follow him? Is he so insecure that he needs one more human being to praise Him? Therefore, conversion is absurd." In other words, conversion is a non-issue for any enlightened person, because what someone else chooses to believe is entirely their decision. And the Dalai Lama regularly advises Westerners not to convert to Buddhism, telling them there is no need, that you can be a good human being in any religion.

This, to me, is enlightened thinking-sadly, the minority thinking.

So I say to my Hindu brothers: Don't you realize how oxymoronic the phrase 'Hindu fascists' sounds? You can only be a Hindu or a fascist, not both. The Hinduism I admire is the Hinduism of Namaste ("Greetings to the god in you!") and Tat twam asi (That thou art), not the Hinduism of khaki shorts and dandas which some of your misguided brethren seem to follow. Why not laugh at the subject of conversions, as I did, both during the Hare Krishna conversion attempt (when I was a poor student who wished to enjoy their delicious Indian vegetarian feasts, but not their feast of eardrum-splitting chanting) and that of the evangelical Christians? After all, religion is a personal affair, and to worry ourselves about which God others choose to pray to when we can barely manage our own lives: it is absurd and unnecessary. But educating your brothers, teaching them, with a broad-based education, how to think for themselves, rather than just equipping them to make money, and showing them the greatness of your religion through the example of your lives: that would be the noblest and most dignified and democratic way to stop self-conversions.

To my Christian brothers, I say (lacking any credentials whatsoever, yet knowing that wisdom can sometimes come from the mouths of fools): how about simply doing good for goodness' sake, expecting no reward or gratitude, respecting everyone simply because they are children of God by virtue of being human? It would be the best way to practice our religion. There would be no conflict. And if you can, at least some of you, why not learn to admire the good in other religions, perhaps even telling your children stories from the Hindu epics, and the best ideas from Hindu philosophy?

For if religious groups, including fundamentalist groups, continue to mistrust, hate, and war with each other as they are doing now, then future generations will probably abandon organized, formal religion altogether, as is happening in Europe, where a few centuries back wars and genocide were committed in the name of religion, and where, in France and England for example, Sunday church attendance hovers around the five percent mark.

Which, from the point of view of my agnostic friends (and I must not forget them), would probably be the best thing for peace on earth.

Richard Crasta, USA

http://mangalorean.com/browsearticles.php?...&articleid=1365

Shambhu · (This post was last modified: 09-26-2008, 07:21 PM by Shambhu.)

One quibble with Richard Crasta:

He has to realize that the violence from "Hindu fascists" is always reactionary, the violence of christo fundoos is provocative, offensive. Has he not seen the pamphlets? So the guy who slaps you and you who fight back; are the both of you equals? Hinduism does not believe in turning the other cheek to adharma, notwithstanding what the closet christo gandhi said.

Bharatvarsh · 09-27-2008, 10:26 PM

QUOTEChristians, Hindus divided over temple possession

* Temple Committee information secretary says temple built by community ancestors
* Subhar Sudha programme director says Hindus should control temple

By Ali Usman

LAHORE: The Balmiki Temple situated in Anarkali has become the focal point of a feud between converted Christians and Hindus, each claiming full rights to the temple, with Christian converts currently retaining control of the site.

The ancestors of the Balmiki Christians, who currently have possession of the temple, converted to Christianity from Hinduism about 30 years ago, but are still affiliated with the Swami Balmik, for whom the temple was built. They maintain that they have full rights to the temple despite being Christians, and will not give it up.

Conversely, the Hindu Sudhar Sabha, an association of Lahoreâs Hindu population, has alleged that the Christians caretakers harass them and prevent them from worshipping in the temple. They claim that their actions have made the temple the site of a hub of activities that are against the respect of the temple. However, the Christians claim that they do not want any âoccupierâ to intervene in the internal affairs of the temple.

A committee of Christians who look into its financial and other related affairs currently runs the Balmiki Temple independently. However, the shops outside the temple are rented out by the Auqaf Department. A few years, when the Baber Masjid in India was demolished in India, some protestors partially demolished the temple in retaliation. However, it was repaired afterwards.

Heritage: Imran Maqsood, introducing himself as the information secretary of the Temple Committee, told Daily Times that the temple was built by his communityâs ancestors and they would not allow anyone to take possession of it. He claimed that the Hindu Sudhar Sabha had tried to occupy the temple and interfere in the templeâs affairs. He said that even though his community had converted to Christianity, their affiliation and goodwill towards Swami Balmiki was still unchanged. A worshipper at the temple, Baghat Lal Kokhar, who is Christian by faith, said that his community still worshipped at the temple and did not bar anyone from doing the same. However, he added, they would not tolerate any interference in the templeâs affairs.

Hindu Sudhar Sabha President Heera Lal told Daily Times that it was illogical to have a Hindu Temple run by Christians. He said that the temple was not the personal property of anyone and the converts had no right to retain it after changing their faith.

Convert: Hindu Sudhar Sabha Programme Director Amar Nath Randhwa said that the Balmiki Temple had no qualified pandit. He said that if the Christians who had possession of the temple wanted to keep it under their control, they should convert to Hinduism. He alleged that when Hindus tried to worship at the temple, the Christians there hooted at them and teased their women. He claimed that they had turned the temple into an adda. He said that the Sudhar Sabha had taken the issue to Minority Affairs Minister Kamran Michael, who had ordered an inquiry into the matter. He said that the inquiry should be expedited, adding that a Hindu delegation would also visit Chief Minister Shahbaz Sharif for a solution to the issue. He said that the government should seriously look into the matter to avoid any untoward incident.

Talking to Daily Times, the residents of the area said that the temple dispute should be solved with justice. They said that it should be ensured that no oneâs religious feelings are hurt.

Baba Guru Balmik Swami was a Hindu scholar, saint and writer of Ramayana. He is supposed to have been the re-incarnation of Jagat Guru in Hinduism. He was born around 60,000 years before Sri Ram Chander (a Hindu god). Guru Wasdat was Ramâs Guru and Guru Bardawaj was Wasdatâs Guru and Swami was Bardawajâs Guru. Hindus believe water was Swamiâs father and Bhanwar was his mother.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?p...7-9-2008_pg13_8

Husky · 09-28-2008, 06:21 PM

^ More relevant

Need the following here to refer to it from other thread:
http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/world/5028115...-yale-lecturer/
The link to the page had said "Blair lectures Yale uni students on religion"
QUOTEBlair back at school as Yale lecturer
September 20, 2008, 1:55 pm

Former British prime minister Tony Blair, describing himself a terrible student, has gone back to school as a religion lecturer at top US university Yale.

Blair, who converted to Catholicism after leaving office in 2007 and talked increasingly openly of his Christian faith while prime minister, delivered his inaugural lecture at the prestigious college in the state of Connecticut.

An enthusiastic audience of more than 2,000 students later thronged ornate Woolsey Hall to hear a talk by Blair, who stepped down after a decade in power, under fire for his strong support of the US-led war in Iraq .

The part-time job - he will deliver five lectures a year for three years to a class of 25 - comes on top of work as a Middle East peace envoy and lucrative business consultancies.

But the focus on faith and globalisation as Yale's Howland Distinguished Fellow dovetails with the former Labour Party leader's long interest in religion and the work of his Tony Blair Faith Foundation.

Blair, who wore a blue suit and came with a Scotland Yard security detail, is already familiar with Yale's picturesque campus in the quiet town of New Haven - his elder son Euan graduated from there this year.

He described his students at their first lecture as "really clever."

The ex-premier, who jokingly recalled his own teachers thinking him "a complete pain the backside" and being an habitual absentee at lectures, is unlikely to do join the carousing for which US college life is famous.

The lectures Blair is delivering will last only one-and-a-half hours and he will not conduct seminars, meaning only brief spells on campus, university spokeswoman Helaine Klasky said.

However, he will at least spend a few nights at the university where his former close ally in Iraq , US President George W Bush , once studied.

"This time he slept here last night, but he is leaving later this evening," Klasky said.

Yale is donating $US200,000 ($A248,900) to his foundation, in addition to paying a "nominal fee," Klasky said.

Britons, unlike Americans, discourage public displays of faith by politicians.

Blair once admitted to the BBC that he toned down religious talk for fear of being considered a "nutter." His famously pugnacious spokesman Alastair Campbell stated: "We don't do God."

Yet Blair openly flirted with Catholicism while in office and converted soon after, a break with tradition in a nation where the monarch heads the Anglican Church of England.

By chance, students waiting for Blair to arrive at Woolsey Hall were treated to a church-like recital on the hall's magnificent organ.

However, Blair was in no mood to repent for his most controversial act: supporting Bush's invasion of Iraq on what proved to be the untrue justification that Saddam Hussein harboured weapons of mass destruction.

He described the Iraq conflict, deeply unpopular in Britain, as part of a broader struggle against extreme Islam and enemies of Muslims "trying to be part of the modern world."

"They are the same forces we are fighting everywhere," Blair said.

Referring to the guerrilla wars bogging down Western armies both in Iraq and Afghanistan , Blair said there was "a deeper and more fundamental struggle than we anticipated."

There is "no alternative but to follow it through."

Other than his Mideast envoy duties and now teaching, Blair has a range of lucrative part-time work, including consultancies for investment bank JPMorgan and Swiss insurer Zurich.

He is reported to earn hundreds of thousands of dollars (euros, pounds) for speaking appearances.

Amila Golic, an English literature student who attended the talk, found Yale's newest lecturer "charming but not convincing."

"A lot of it was wishy washy. The questions about Iraq and so on should have been extended. I think that's more relevant to us," said Golic, 20.

Certainly the once invincible master of 10 Downing Street still has charm.

He drew laughs on recalling the double-speak among senior advisers. "When they thought you were doing something really, really stupid, they'd say: 'That's a very courageous thought, prime minister.'"

But the loudest cheer came when he was quizzed about how as a student he'd sided in the great debate over who was best: the Beatles or the Rolling Stones.

Blair looked flummoxed. "I always used to say the Rolling Stones," he answered finally, "because if you didn't say the Stones, the girlfriends just..." - and Blair waved his hands to indicate them disappearing.

"The truth is," he continued to a roar of approval, "that it really is the Beatles."Another jeebus freak in America's schooling system.

09-30-2008, 11:52 PM

DiplomÃ¡tico y militante gay es rechazado por el Vaticano como embajador de Francia
Benedict's Bigotry
QUOTEThe Pope rejects the new Sarkozy-appointed French ambassador to the Vatican because he's gay and married to a man. These facts in no way impede the man's ability to do his job, just as being gay does not in any way impede a seminarian's ability to be a great priest (as so many gay men have been through the centuries). But this Pope is a bigot, as we now know - and will discriminate against people just for who they are, rather than what they can professionally do.

Shambhu · 10-02-2008, 04:25 AM

For our babus and brown bishops

=====================================================
To propagate is not to convert

The constitutional right to 'propagate' does not mean the right to 'convert'

Astonishing ignorance laces the arguments, proffered by bleeding heart lib-left intellectuals and politicians who insist that secularism means denial of Hindu rights, in defense of religious conversions through deceit, allurement and coercion. "The Constitution guarantees Christian missionaries the right to convert people to Christianity," we are told. "In a secular country, the Constitution reigns supreme," we are reminded. "Violation of rights enshrined in the Constitution will destroy democracy," we are warned. But what does the Constitution say? Ask them this simple question, and the Constitution-thumping saviors of secularism, pluralism and republicanism will be stumped.

This is what Article 25(1) of the Constitution says: "Subject to public order, morality and health and to other provisions of this part, all persons are equally entitled to freedom of conscience and the right to freely profess, practice and propagate religion." Read it out to those who pretend great outrage every time there's a hint of protest against conversions, and they will pounce upon you: "See, the Constitution gives Christian missionaries the right to propagate their religion." But the right to 'propagate' does not mean the right to 'convert'. And it is this inability to distinguish between the two that highlights the appalling ignorance of those who see nothing wrong with offensive evangelism.

That the constitutional right to 'propagate' does not mean the right to 'convert' was clarified by the Supreme Court while upholding the validity of anti-conversion laws -- the Freedom of Religion Act 1967 and the Dharma Swatantraya Adhiniyam 1968 -- in Orissa and Madhya Pradesh. Chief Justice AN Ray, in his ruling, left little scope for confusion between propagation and conversion -- the two, he said, were different: "What Article 25(1) grants is not the right to convert another person to one's own religion by exposition of its tenets." The court also ruled that States, bearing in mind their responsibility to maintain public order, have the right to adopt laws "prohibiting conversion from one religion to another in a manner reprehensible to the conscience of the community".

Now let's look at what has been happening in Orissa where violence has erupted in impoverished, tribal-majority Kandhamal district. Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati, a Hindu monk and anti-conversion activist of the VHP who had spent more than three decades working for the welfare of indigent and illiterate Hindus, setting up schools and shelters for them, was shot dead last Saturday night at his ashram. Four of his associates were also killed in the murderous attack.

Strangely, the administration suggested that the killings were the handiwork of Maoists, who promptly denied any role. Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati, who was attacked on several occasions in the past by hoodlums on the payroll of missionaries, had recently received death threats and his associates had sought police protection for him. Two constables were detailed to provide him with 'security cover' -- on the night he was killed, they were nowhere on the scene.

Over the past week, VHP activists have run amok, attacking evangelical missions and their staff. The resultant death of eight persons and the destruction of property, often no more than huts, belonging to Christians is no doubt reprehensible; violence cannot, indeed, must not, be the response to the most provocative of black deeds. Yet, the blowback to Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati's murder cannot be seen in isolation. It has to be seen in the context of evangelists 'harvesting souls' by inducing the poor and the illiterate to embrace Christianity. Rice bowl conversions have little to do with faith in the good lord.

A couple of years ago, Christian organisations, including the Catholic church, raised a huge hue and cry over violence against evangelists in BJP-ruled Rajasthan. The Minorities Commission got into the act, thundering articles appeared in the 'secular' media and television channels ran a 24x7 campaign lambasting 'Hindu nationalists' for persecuting 'innocent Christians'. As always, truth was the first casualty.

The furor was centered over a Hindi book, Haqeeqat, which was being freely distributed in Rajasthan's tribal-dominated areas by 'Archbishop' MA Thomas and his son, 'Reverend' Samuel Thomas, of the Emmanuel Mission International. Written by a Kerala-based evangelist, MG Mathew, the book had been translated into Hindi by another evangelist, Daniel Nathaniel, also associated with the Emmanuel Mission International.

Here are some examples -- the more lurid and explicit bits do not merit reproduction -- of what the book had to say about Hindus and Hinduism:

"Hindu gods and goddesses are fictitious and were invented to persecute Dalits".

"With the progression of time, people all over the world were freed of their ignorance and they began to disown wicked and cruel gods and goddesses. But in India, because people are (enveloped) in the darkness of ignorance, imaginary gods and goddesses are still worshipped."

"Sita was abandoned in the forest as per Ram's wishes... Ram later asked Lakshman to kill Sita. In the end, Ram, frustrated with life, drowned himself in Saryu. Such are the teachings of half-naked rishis."

"Krishna had a despicable sex life."

The Government of Rajasthan, following street protests against the book, scrutinised its contents and decided to ban it to prevent the eruption of violence. Simultaneously, cases were registered against the father-son duo of âArchbishopâ Thomas and âReverendâ Thomas. The senior Thomas went into hiding, his son was arrested. The Emmanuel Mission Internationalâs premises were raided and copies of the book seized. Immediately thereafter, the campaign of calumny began. Thereâs nothing new about such traducement; along with allurement, inducement, fraud and coercion, it has been one of the mainstays of evangelism.

Religious conversions can have sinister social implications and destabilising political consequences. Itâs not for nothing that Mrs Indira Gandhi, incandescent with rage after the mass conversion of Hindus to Islam at Meenakshipuram in February 1981, favoured the idea of States adopting anti-conversion laws and had the Home Ministry prepare a draft Act for circulation among State Governments. Why the draft never became law is another story best kept for another day.

(Courtesy- Shri Kanchan Gupta & The Pioneer)

http://www.vhp.org/featuredarticles_kanchangupta.php

Husky · (This post was last modified: 01-04-2009, 10:25 AM by Husky.)

When Hindus keep deflecting christianism's crimes by couching the threat under the word "missionaries" instead of its true name of christianism (as if missionaries were a separate 'evil entity' and christianism was innocent) they are
- doing a grave injustice to those terrorised and genocided by christos/christianism in the past
- doing a grave disservice to the people currently terrorised by christianism, by keeping them ignorant of *what* is actually threatening and attacking them, by obscuring the real enemy and thus making it hard for the more vulnerable Hindus to identify the true source of their misery.

Besides, *all* christians are commanded by the babble to spread the gospel - that is, to be missionaries. It is christianism that gives rise to christian terrorists - it is christianism that is (the root cause of) christoterrorism.

I make no apologies for pasting the following. As sick as these excerpts make me, and as sick as it will make everyone else, it deserves to be read by whoever makes it this far. Curious who (any lurker-apologists out there; not IF members, of course) will thereafter still find it conscionable to deflect the evil THAT IS christianism onto "missionaries" or "evanjehadis".
Many of the same Hindus who now finally dare say that islam is behind the largescale genocide and rape in Bharatam and other nations, and admit that it caused various other utterly inhuman acts against 'infidels', have the most curiously effective blinders on when it comes to the VERY SAME TERRORIST acts committed all through history by those other faithfuls: christians. People who can't see that christianism is the same as islam are wilfully blind.

The following IS christianism:
My inserts in purple.

http://web.archive.org/web/20080131215750/...olonialism.html
QUOTEwhite (no, not "white" but rather faithful CHRISTIAN) men, who raped Native women at epidemic rates. Between 1851 and 1852, California spent over one million dollars hiring soldiers to exterminate Natives. In one typical expedition, a group of invading soldiers demanded that all the young women be given to them for sexual service. When they discovered that the young women had already managed to escape, the soldiers raped the old women instead. Other accounts of colonial (=christian) sexual abuse include the following:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTEWhen I was in the boat I captured a beautiful Carib woman. . .I conceived desire to take pleasure. . . .I took a rope and thrashed her well, for which she raised such unheard screams that you would not have believed your ears. Finally we came to an agreement in such a manner that I can tell you that she seemed to have been brought up in a school of harlots.
(^ This one must be the faithful christoterrorist Columbus because "In his own words, Columbus described how he himself "took [his] pleasure" with a native woman after whipping her "soundly" with a piece of rope. -- The Dark Side of Christian History, Helen Ellerbe")

Two of the best looking of the squaws were lying in such a position, and from the appearance of the genital organs and of their wounds, there can be no doubt that they were first ravished and then shot dead. Nearly all of the dead were mutilated.

One woman, big with child, rushed into the church, clasping the alter and crying for mercy for herself and unborn babe. She was followed, and fell pierced with a dozen lances. . . [T]he child was torn alive from the yet palpitating body of its mother, first plunged into the holy water to be baptized, and immediately its brains were dashed out against a wall.
(Just like Bertrand Russell said: "The [Catholic] Spaniards in Mexico and Peru used to baptize Indian infants and then immediately dash their brains out; by this means they secured that these infants went to heaven."
What would jeebusjehovallah do? Look in The Terrorist Manual known as Da Babble where the christoterrorist gawd dashes babies against rocks.)

The Christians attacked them with buffets and beatings. . . . Then they behaved with such temerity and shamelessness that the most powerful ruler of the island had to see his own wife raped by a Christian officer.

I heard one man say that he had cut a woman's private parts out, and had them for exhibition on a stick. . . . I also heard of numerous instances in which men had cut out the private parts of females, and stretched them over their saddle-bows and some of them over their hats.

The attitudes on display in the examples above have changed very little over the centuries. In 1982, a white man named Stuart Kasten marketed a video game called Custer's Revenge, in which players score points each time they, as Custer, rape an Indian woman. The gameâs slogan is, "When you score, you score." Kasten has deceptively described the game as "a fun sequence where the woman is enjoying a sexual act willingly."

In the Indian (christian) boarding schools of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, founded by the US government to prevent Indian women from passing on their language and culture to their children, physical and sexual abuse was rampant. Irene Mack Pyawasit recalls her days as a boarding school resident from the Menominee reservation:

The government employees that they put into the schools had families but still there were an awful lot of Indian girls turning up pregnant. Because the employees were having a lot of fun, and they would force a girl into a situation, and the girl wouldn't always be believed. Then, because she came up pregnant, she would be sent home in disgrace. Some boy would be blamed for it, never the government employee. He was always scot-free. And no matter what the girl said, she was never believed.
The high rates of alcoholism, violence, and suicide in Indian communities today can, in large part, be traced to the brutality of Indian boarding schools.</div>^All that wasn't islam, that was christianism. But it's easy to confuse the two, since only the *names* of these two subcults of the Unified Cult of Terrorism are different.

Where did those wonderful christians get all this baby-murdering, raping and mutilating from? Oh, now let me see, this is just such a difficult question to answer. Eh, what's that? Le chretien dit: "The Babble told us to do it. It sets us the glorious example." Yes, listen to the cretin. It knows what it's talking about.
http://nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible5.htm - 4 babble translations, none of which are able to dress up this most gawdly statement to make it remotely palatable
QUOTEHappy To Kill Children
"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." (Psalms 137:9, KJV)
"How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones Against the rock." (Psalms 137:9, New American Bible)
"Happy the man who shall seize and smash your little ones against the rock!" (Psalms 137:9, New American Bible)
"a blessing on anyone who seizes your babies and shatters them against a rock!" (Psalms 137:9, Jerusalem Bible) http://nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible3.htm
QUOTE"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:15-16)

While the loving followers of the loving non-existent jeebus were busy dashing the native American babies' brains out in obedience and imitation of their beloved jeebusjehovallah, they were hoping for even more native American babies to be born - obviously in order to dash out their brains as well (see below). Else the christians had nothing fun to do. Or they could let them grow up and then engage in that other christian pastime: "the use of dogs to hunt the Indians, the so-called "Spaniard's Method,". And 'Reverend Solomon Stoddard, one of New England's most esteemed religious leaders, in "1703 formally proposed to the Massachusetts Governor that the colonists be given the financial wherewithal to purchase and train large packs of dogs 'to hunt Indians as they do bears'."' (http://freetruth.50webs.org/A4a.htm - look for all occurrences of "dog".)
The following also shows yet more lewd christian behaviour from the sexually repressed christos (in blue below):
http://web.archive.org/web/20021211223945/...eo/mission.html
QUOTESo, using armed Spanish troops, to capture Indians and herd them into the mission stockades, the Spanish padres did their best to convert the natives before they killed them.

And kill them they did... At the mission of Nuestra SeÃ±ora de Loreto, reported the Franciscan chronicler Father Francisco PaloÃº, during the first three years of Franciscan rule 76 children and adults were baptized, while 131 were buried... The same held true at others, from the mission of Santa RosaliÃ¡ de MulegÃ©, with 48 baptisms and 113 deaths, to the mission of San Ignacio, with 115 baptisms and 293 deaths - all within the same initial three year period.

For some missions, such as those of San JosÃ© del Cabo and Santiago de las Coras, no baptism or death statistics were reported, because there were so few survivors [...] that there was no reason for counting [...] And what was done was simply that they brought more natives in, under military force of arms.

In short, the missions were furnaces of death that sustained their Indian population levels for as long as they did only by driving more and more natives into their confines to compensate for the huge numbers who were being killed once they got there. [...] Thus for example, one survey of life and death in an early Arizona mission has turned up statistics showing that at one time an astonishing 93 percent of the children born within its walls died before the age of ten - and yet the mission's total population did not drastically decline. [SH136f]

There were various ways in which the mission Indians died. [...] The personal living space for Indians in the missions averaged about seven feet by two feet per person for unmarried captives, who were locked at night into sex-segregated common rooms that contained a single open pit for a toilet. It was perhaps a bit more space than was allotted a captive African in the hold of a slave ship sailing the Middle Passage. [...] Of course, the mission Indians also worked like slaves in the padres' agricultural fields, but they did so with far less than half the caloric intake, on average, commonly provided a black slave in Mississippi, Alabama, or Georgia. [SH138]

As one French visitor commented in the early nineteenth century, after inspecting life in the missions, the relationship between the priest and his flock "would ... be different only in name if a slaveholder kept them for labor and rented them out at will ..." But, we know now, he would have fed them better. [SH139]

The padres were also concerned about the continuing catastrophic decline in the number of babies born to their neophyte charges... here is a first-hand account of what happened at mission Santa Cruz when a holy and ascetic padre named Ramon OlbÃ©s came to the conclusion that one particular married couple was behaving with excessive sexual inhibition, thereby depriving him of another child to enslave and another soul to offer up to Christ:
Â Â Â <div class='quotetop'>QUOTEHe [Father OlbÃ©s] sent for the husband and he asked him why his wife hadn't borne children... they brought an interpreter. This [one] repeated the question of the father to the Indian, who answered that he should ask God. The father asked through the interpreter if he slept with his wife, to which the Indian said yes. Then the father had them placed in a room together so that they would perform coitus in his presence. The Indian refused, but they forced him to show them his penis in order to affirm that he had it in good order... Fr. OlbÃ©s asked her if her husband slept with her, and she answered that, yes... He had her enter another room in order to examine her reproductive parts.
At this point the woman resisted the padre's attempted forced inspection; for that impertinence she received fifty lashes, was "shackled, and locked in the nunnery." He then gave her a wooden doll and ordered her to carry it with her, "like a recently born child," wherever she went. [SH141]

There was, of course, good reason for the Indians to fear the consequences of running away and being caught:
QUOTESome of the run-away men were tied on sticks and beaten with straps. One chief was taken out to the open field and a young calf which had just died was skinned and the chief was sewed into the skin while it was yet warm. He was kept tied to a stake all day, but he died soon and they kept his corpse tied up.
[SH142]
D.E.Stannard, American Holocaust. Columbus and the Conquest of the New World, New York: Oxford University 1992.</div>BY GAWD. I now see. It is the TRUE religion.

http://web.archive.org/web/20021211201514/...nstitution.html
QUOTEGeorge Washington in 1779 instructed his troops on how to deal with the Iroquois people:

Â Â Â "...lay waste all the settlements around... that the country may not be merely overrun but destroyed," (and do not) "listen to any overture of peace before the total ruin of their settlements is effected."

Also in 1779 his General James Clinton wrote about the same natives:

Â Â Â "Bad as these savages are, they never violate the chastity of any woman,"

and from his remark we also learn something about the conduct of the Christian soldiers."the conduct of the Christian soldiers" <- At least the owner of the above Christian Heritage site is under no delusions on how it was merely some "missionaries" or "evanjehadis". Instead he calls them by their real name: christians, i.e. zombies nabbed by christianism. Meanwhile, Hindus insist on the very 'amicably' psecular blindness. Apparently because blindness will save us (?). It is not enough for some people that they should die of their own ignorance - no, they simply must shove their ignorance onto everyone else so that it may facilitate the christianist murder of all those others.

Contrast christian behaviour (all the above) - possessed as they are by their non-existent jeebusjehovallah - with the traditional native Americans guided by their Grand Spirit:
http://web.archive.org/web/20080131215750/...olonialism.html
via http://freetruth.50webs.org/A4a.htm
QUOTEThough the Christians raped and tortured the Indian women, it was noted that the Native Americans did not do the same:

Â # "I don't remember to have heard an instance of these savages offering to violate the chastity of any of the fair sex who had fallen into their hands." wrote the anonymous author of A Narrative of the Capture of Certain Americans at Westmoreland (1780)
Â # Another anonymous writer, narrator of the battles of Trenton and Princeton, stated that British abuse of women had been "far Worse in this Respect than an Indian War, for I Never heard nor read of their Ravishing of Women ..."

Â # Mary Rowlandson said of her own captivity: "I have been in the midst of roaring Lions, and Savage Bears, that feared neither God, nor Man, nor the Devil ... and yet not one of them ever offered the least abuse of unchastity to me in word or action."
Â # William Apess (Pequot) asked in the 1800s, "Where, in the records of Indian barbarity, can we point to a violated female"?
Â # Even Brigadier General James Clinton of the Continental Army said to his soldiers in 1779, as he sent them off to destroy the Iroquois nation, "Bad as the savages are, they never violate the chastity of any women, their prisoners."When Hindus merely blame "those missionaries" and thus shield christianism (which is the true cause of all this unspeakable evil), they are but continuing to stamp on the memory of the murdered native Americans, even as the zombie christians stamped on them in life.
Don't know why such Hindus then complain about "christianism's missionaries" terrorising Hindus when they won't SAY THAT IT IS CHRISTIANISM that terrorised all those other natural traditionalists.
Hindus need to Say it.
Anything less - when Hindus know the facts of christianism's history - *is* complicity. (Including complicity in christianism's murder of Swami Lakshmanananda Saraswati of Orissa. It's not just 'some christians' who killed him; it was christianism. It was premeditated. 8 or 9 times premeditated, though the very christian murder attempt only succeeded the final time. When therefore any Hindus continue to shield christianism - by obfuscating what is ultimately and solely to blame for all this - they are kicking the Swami. Such ingrate 'Hindus' never did deserve people like him.)

Meanwhile, look at the very telling map of Africa which the Hellenes at ysee.gr have posted on their main page at http://ysee.gr/ for the entry dated 15.8.2008
It shows Africa staked by the christo cross and bleeding into those regions wherever the cross has cut the continent. Picture = 1000 words. The cross doesn't have the word "missionary" on it. No, it's the plain cross and represents christianism.
The Traditional Greeks are still fighting against the terrorism of christianism, while many Hindus are happy to play the part of the self-deluded fool, roll over, declare christian victory and praise christoterrorism as a religion 'equal to' and alongside Hinduism. Thereby selling native Americans, the ancient Greco-Romans, all the old unconverted world (Africa, Asia, Europa, ...), our own victimised Hindu ancestors, current NE and Swami, their dignity and self-respect (and ours), just so they can cosy up to christianism. Yes, do let's cosy up to the cannibal.

Shambhu · 10-03-2008, 07:23 PM

Thanks Husky! Christo rapes have largely flown under the radar..

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