Hindu Seer and related discussion only

10-28-2003, 07:09 AM

Discussion on Hindu Seer only.

11-26-2004, 04:09 PM

QUOTE(Kaushal @ Nov 25 2004, 07:09 PM) SoÂ i asked myself whatÂ Â is it that the Brahmana has done, thatÂ is so terrible, that he should earn this burning hatred

Hi Kaushal,

It is only when there is introspection like this that understanding can dawn and healing can begin.

The question can be summarised as, 'what did we do to deserve this'? Many modern Hindus have lost the belief of karma, often now just a perfunctory tale to be quoted only. But we know that nothing can happen to us if it is not our karma; therefore we accept whatever that happens and deal with it. That is being a Hindu, rather than pointing fingers at the police, the judiciary, the politicians and the media.

In a society where there is a dedicated priesthood, and the priesthood does not allow a section of the society to enter the temples, does not perform samskaras in their homes, does not allow the rest of the society to become priests or monks, does not allow the rest of society to learn the scriptures, then that priesthood has failed the soceity. It is not serving them. Priests are there only to serve god and society, and if that does not happen, their usefulness has lapsed. On top of that, if the priesthood insults the society by saying 'you are lower' and avoids mixing with the people for fear of pollution, that would be just about the worse thing.

The priesthood failed to understand that they are here to serve the people, all the people, with love, that the people are their patrons, their protectors and the source of their livelihood.

Something like this happened in India, driving the people away to secularism, leftism and athiesm, other religions - and eventually the big karma was coming.

Inspite of all this, though the Hindus resented, they did no react. (This means there was no hate, only quiet resentment and exasperation which was obvious to anybody who talked to Indians.)

What happened recently was not the peoples' doing. It was an act of god.

When something like this happens to a Pontiff, it means it is happening to the whole group; here to all smartha brahmanas and the 4 other shankaracharyas and the 10 dasanami orders too.

As Hindus, we believe that our ancestral spiritual lineage of gurus, never actually die or disappear. They live in the inner worlds continually guiding devotees, especially gurus. In other words, Adi Shankara and all those who succeeded him are still there in the inner worlds guiding the sampradaya.

In fact, to Hindus, nothing can happen in this world if a decision was first not made by the gods and deceased gurus in the inner world. Everthing that happens here to us is first decided there, and then unfolds here. We have been told this.

Healing begins when people introspect, accept karmic responsibility, and make amends.

But to lift the sky, all the Hindu people must raise their hands together. The priesthood cannot do it alone. My hands are raised, Kaushal.

Kind regards and aum.

Pathmarajah Nagalingam

11-26-2004, 07:13 PM

QUOTEIn a society where there is a dedicated priesthood, and the priesthood does not allow a section of the society to enter the temples, does not perform samskaras in their homes, does not allow the rest of the society to become priests or monks, does not allow the rest of society to learn the scriptures, then that priesthood has failed the society. It is not serving them. Priests are there only to serve god and society, and if that does not happen, their usefulness has lapsed. On top of that, if the priesthood insults the society by saying 'you are lower' and avoids mixing with the people for fear of pollution, that would be just about the worse thing.


There is a difference btw Priesthood and Sainthood, Everybody should have access to Temples, does not necessarily mean everybody should have access to GOD. Ashram & Mutts since ancient times have always been isolated from public. Real Saints don't seek anything material, their existence at a place itself is beneficent to that region. A land that boast of many such sages left themselves to their way of life will be prosperous. Real Saints are spiritual beings who shower their dwellings with Material prosperity. Now can anybody become a Real Saint, the answer is No. Becoz it all depends upon ones Karma and Origin. I am not saying all Saints are from Brahmins, in fact one of the Adi Shankara disciples who was later called Padma Pada was a backward class person, only Saints can see who is karmically clean and has a potential for Sainthood.

I believe Brahmins are being taken for granted simply because they are docile people, generally keep to themselves. Of course a few Brahmins who found wealth may have been arrogant, or several Orthodox Brahmins discriminatory (they are discriminatory to one and all even within their families born out religious orthodoxy). Even priestly duties need a lot of hard work, and discipline. One has get up at 4 AM, take cold water shower, practice austerities, observe silence, eat frugally, eat only vegetables & fruits cooked at home, sleep less, any many more relating to worship of Gods. Now you got all these Backward classes people who eat Meat, drink illicit liquor, don't shower etc. Now blaming Brahmins for this is no excuse. I would believe Brahmins perhaps tried reforming without much success and left these people alone. You see a lot of different sects of people from Tribals, to dalits still in existence in India. If it were some other place only thing that would remain about them would be in a museum.

11-26-2004, 08:25 PM

Pathma , you are painting a broad brush and tainting the entire community for the acts of a few and regardless of the truth of what you say, i must say such acts pale in significance to the total extermination of people(the north american indian) and their enslavement (the american negro) , the holocausts (during the muslim era and the mongol scourges). If i do not allow a person into a place of worship that hardly qualifies me as a murderer, which is what the people of TN are claiming the acharya is . If individual priests behave in a bigoted manner or contrary to the law of the land they should be punished according to the law, but why punish the entire class and the acharyas who are generally blameless.

Furthermore, contrary to popular opinion anybody is free to become a priest, if he so chooses, provided he attains the right qualifications. There are a small number of temples in India where even Muslims act as priests and many more where erstwhile harijans are officiating as priests The fact of the matter is that i have rarely known a chettiar or a nadar to want to become a hindu priest, because the pay is low (the brahmanas occupy the lowest rung of the economic ladder in India contrary to popular opinion) very few other than Brahmanas opt for the profession. It is only those of us who have abandoned the priestly calling have attained middle class status , as for the priests themselves most wallow in poverty.

You keep singling out Smarthas for special mention. As one who is proud of his Smartha tradition, essentially propagated by Adi Sankara, i am quite perplexed by this . In what way have we, the Smarthas hurt you .

Finally, there is no such thing as a democratic religion, especially among the established religions of the world. Such a thing does not exist in this planet and probably not in the known galaxy and the sanatana dharma is no exception. Almost all the Maulvis in Masjids come from select list of families. The shahi Imam of the Jamma Masjid in Delhi , a hereditary post handed down from Father to son(who has been connected with a lot more murder cases than the Acharya ever will) prides himself by calling himself a Bukhari ( descended from immigrants from Bokhara). Such a hierarchical structure is the norm rather than the exception in most religions. A large number of the SJ priests at St. Xaviers were from Spain. Almost invariably the Principal was a SJ from Spain. Till recently almost all Popes were from Italy.

Remember also that the Brahmanas were not in control of the land or its laws for several centuries if ever. They were the keepers of the tradition at the behest of the maharaja or local chief.They did follow certain rules and did not approve of eating of meat and would not probably allow those who ate meat within the sanctum santorum. But does that mean they deserve the scorn of society and to be held without bail. I find the harshness of the criticism that is leveled against Brhamanas to be vastly disproportionate to their alleged transgressions and stoked by alien rulers of the land to divert attention from their own rather tenuous and highly questionable position in the subcontinent.

I will have much more to say on this matter when time permits, but now i have my hands full looking after an aged father and his establishment

11-26-2004, 10:24 PM

QUOTEIn a society where there is a dedicated priesthood, and the priesthood does not allow a section of the society to enter the temples, does not perform samskaras in their homes, does not allow the rest of the society to become priests or monks, does not allow the rest of society to learn the scriptures, then that priesthood has failed the soceity.


The big question is why does a priesthood exist in the first place?
Is it to serve society or to serve the Devas?

The Hindu society in ancient times appointed the Brahmana as the guardian of the Veda, which is the direct revelation of God. The Brahmana's job is to guard the Vedas and invoke the blessings of the Devas on the population.

The fact is clearly proven in that the Devas control the destiny of the universe, under direction of Bhagavan. If Bhagavan had not willed, Sanatana Dharma would not exist in the first place. It would have collapsed long ago.

It is not the Brahmana's job to "serve the public". That job is for the government officials.

Manu has clearly stated in the Manusmriti, Chapter 2 :-
<i>
162. A Brahmana should always fear homage as if it were poison; and constantly desire to suffer insults as he would long for nectar.

163. For he who is insulted nevertheless may sleep with an easy mind, awake with an easy mind, and with an easy mind walk here among men; but the scorner utterly perishes.
</i>

My explanation of these lines is :-

A Brahmana must never expect others to talk sweetly to him or elevate him to a very high position, because this will thinken his Ego and prevent him from realizing Brahman.

A Brahmana duty is not to please the world. For there is none who can please the entire world.

Nor should a Brahmana succumb to fear. For only a fearless man can realize Brahman.

Even if the whole world is poised to attack the Brahmana, he must stand firm in the defense of the Veda. For without the Veda attainment of immortality is not possible.

Sunder · 11-26-2004, 10:31 PM

QUOTEIn a society where there is a dedicated priesthood, and the priesthood does not allow a section of the society to enter the temples, does not perform samskaras in their homes, does not allow the rest of the society to become priests or monks, does not allow the rest of society to learn the scriptures, then that priesthood has failed the soceity.
...
On top of that, if the priesthood insults the society by saying 'you are lower' and avoids mixing with the people for fear of pollution, that would be just about the worse thing.


I laugh when I read this Pathma. While you point out what is correct, you have not raised your voice (sitting in Malaysia) about the same treatment meted out to non-muslims and 'non-bumiputeras'. It is easier to preach about India and her society while it is harder to set your own home straight first. Isn't it ?

Whining apart, what have you done to counter the discrimination against non-muslims in Malaysia ? There too a section of the society does not allow another section of the society to enter the mosques, does not allow the rest of the society to become mosque board members while they are non-muslims, while in India a temple board member can be from any section of the 'so-called caste' or even religion sometimes. Malaysia does not allow the rest of society the same rights as it's so-called bumiputeras, and so has the soceity failed ? and if so, are you seeing the writing on the wall and fleeing Malaysia?
...
On top of that, if the government insults the non-muslim society by saying 'you are lower' and avoids mixing with the people for fear of pollution, (a non-muslim can't imagine marrying a muslim girl there, while the other way round is possible.) wouldn't that be just about the worse thing??

Talk is cheap Pathma. I was apologizing earler in the hope that you too would see sense and tone down your diatribe.

11-27-2004, 01:43 PM

Dear Pathamaraja:

I had to explain more, I left half way as I got busy. GOD/Godhead is a separate entity achievable to the highest spiritual being. Such a being is called Athman(Athman Realized), this happens only after considerable effort from the aspirant. Now, you have the created Universe with its diverse manifestations. The created Universe behaves on three principles Creation, Sustenance, & Dissolution. Over seen by Three presiding Gods (Brahma, Vishnu, & Mahaeswara) and their consorts and their manifestation & their agencies. The Universe both created & uncreated is built Top-Down, with a hierarchy. There are three aspects of Nature (Saatva, Rajas, Tammas) , the fourth being (Athman relating to GOD/Godhead) and four cycles of time (Satya, Threta, Dwaapara, & kali yugas)

Now are all beings equal? No. Beings in higher world are Saatvi(Salient), they are spiritual beings their presiding God is Brahma, Now you have other Material Heavens, & Earth (Although Vishnu is called Lord of the Universe) where Vishnu is the God, People in these worlds are Raajasic ( Action oriented from a materialistic perspective), And then you have Taalas (the underworld) where the beings are Taamasic (Demonic) the presiding God is Shiva(auspicious from spiritual perspective)(Rudra and his different manifestation from Taamasic perceptive).

Now in different Yugas, Each of these different Gods are the Lords of the Universe (Vishnu)

1. In Satya Yuga Lord was Naaryana (AKA Saguna-Brahman)
2. During Thretha & Dwaapra Yuga the Lord is Vishnu
3. During Kali-Yuga Shiva is the Lord of the Universe. The nature of Brahma is Saatvic in all aspects. The nature of Vishnu during Thretha & Dwaapra is both Raajasic & at times Taamasic (becoz he is the lord of the Taalas as well also called Yama who oversees all lower planes.). Shiva is Taamasic, his role is to do constructive destruction of created world that has served its purpose. Shiva is also the next creator. Shiva & Vishnu by their inherent nature are also Saguna-Brahman, meaning having originated from Brahman(GOD/Godhead).

Now GOD/Godhead is doing all its work (play lila) through proxies of Brahma, Vishnu,& Shiva.

Now we as created beings from a Hindu perspective have the freedom to choose to worship any/all aspects of Creation, Preservation, & Dissolution(& their presiding deities & their different manifestations). Now not all beings are not equal (they are either Saatvic, Raajasic, OR Taamasic). Now based on an individuals evolution Materially, intellectually, & spiritually one can worship from a diversity of options. Now you see Brahmins worship their deities in Temples, You see Peasants worshipping their local deities Bhoomi Devatha etc). You are free to choose any form/deity of worship based on your inclination. Tribals worship the Forests/Trees, it is apparent as the forests provides them food, Fisherman worship the Seas, so you see based on their livelihood people will worship Nature. In fact worship of Nature is worship of GOD/Godhead. Hinduism has not been discriminatory this way as you are free to worship from your perspective. Now the conflict comes when one is Saatvic/Taamsic. Now Kaali (the dissolver of the Universe) is alter ego of the same Creating energy/ Creative Nature Or Prakrithi/Shakti. Now people who sacrifice animals to Kaali are asking for her blessings in using her energies to destroy as she is the presiding deity of Paataala. Now, as a Business man I worship venkateswara I am hoping I would be blessed with Wealth & material prosperity. Now if I am worshipping Shiva(Rama), Krishna, Vishnu, I am hoping of conducting my life in a decent manner & I hope advancing to a higher plane. Again if I worship Shiva,Rama,Krishna, Vishnu from a spiritual perspective as in Mutts I am appealing to their Saguna-Brahman nature to acquire Moksha or Salvation. If I am worshipping Chandramoulssewara/Moola Rama I am worshipping GOD/Godhead expecting Brahmanhood(advaitha) or at least Moksha. If I want Money I dont go to Kaali, If I want to seek Kaali's blessings through Venkateswara I dont sacrifice an animal in front Venkateswara as each god has his/her own requirements, otherwise you will earn sin.

Its all about What you want, & where you go for it & what you do to get it? And about Gods blessing you totally depends on your internal nature (Saatvic,Raajasic, Taamasic), your Karmas, and your honest effort.

Now you got these organized religions who believe in their God is the only savior and others are all fake, they can believe in all they want they will be flushed out once they earn enough sins to be flushed outside. Why is all bad things happening, becoz it is Kaliyuga this is what happens during Kaliyuga.

Now to discuss the caste issue, Castes in ancient times was based on vocation, and everybody worked towards a singular goal of societal evolution. For example, in constructing the temple. The peasents, laborors, priests have to conduct life in a very austere manner during construction & consecration. Now when people offer oblation to Gods, most of it is as food to Gods which comes from the peasents, the share of good karma goes to the simple peasent as well. In ancient times world did not revolve around money/business most of it was symbiotic and most of things were free. It mostly revolved around religion. In modern times it is truely casteless as no one is behaving as they used to in ancient times, Brahmins are only in name only, all of them are Vysasas only after money. Nothing to worry as this is how it will turn out in Kali yuga. Being born a Brahmin does not mean I am Saatvic, or being born A Sudra does not mean I am Taamasic. But, certain customs do indicate/lead different
natures. For example, a Saatvic person is nonaggressive, non-competitive, eats whole vegeterian food, is truthful, leads a simple life, excersises moderation in life. A raajasic being is a typical being you find any where working for a livelihood. A taamasic person might eat meat, drink alchohol, etc. And not everybody is 100% Saatvic/Raajasic/Taamasic. They come in different shades like different RGB settings. Universe is a very diverse place.

I hope I made things a little clearer.

Vajra

11-27-2004, 02:02 PM

QUOTE(mitradena @ Nov 26 2004, 10:24 PM) The big question is why does a priesthood exist in the first place?
Is it to serve society or to serve the Devas?

The Hindu society in ancient times appointed the Brahmana as the guardian of the Veda.

The fact is clearly proven in that the Devas control the destiny of the universe, under direction of Bhagavan.

It is not the Brahmana's job to "serve the public". That job is for the government officials.


Hi Mitradena,

Esoterically, serving God and man is the same thing. Even in practice the priesthood must serve the population, the entire population, and all devotees from whichever part of the world. No questions about this. Priests are servants of the devotees, especially in the agamic culture, and that is our religion.

The priesthood was also the custodian of the vedas, not guardian. Big difference. (perhaps this misunderstanding caused all the caste problems). Custodian 'for and on behalf of the people'. No question about it too.

As gods control the destiny of the world, recent events must be attributed to Him, not on the Hindu population who had nothing to do with it.

Sunder, the best place to discuss Malaysian politics is soc.culture.malaysia. You may wish to know that no policies can take effect without the consent of the Indian Malaysians. Its the abuse of the policies that we complain, and its being removed. And, oh, save some laffs for early next year. We may all need it.

Thanks Vajramuni, will respond if necessary when I can.

Regards.

Pathma

11-27-2004, 03:08 PM

QUOTE(Kaushal @ Nov 26 2004, 08:25 PM) Pathma , you are painting a broad brush and tainting the entire community for the acts of a few and regardless of the truth of what you say, i must say such acts pale in significance to the total extermination of people(the north american indian) and their enslavement (the american negro) , the holocausts (during the muslim era and the mongol scourges). If i do not allow a person into a place of worship that hardly qualifies me as a murderer, which is what the people of TN are claiming the acharya is . If individual priests behave in a bigoted manner or contrary to the law of the land they should be punished according to the law, but why punish theÂ entire class and the acharyas who are generally blameless.

You keep singling out Smarthas for special mention. As one who is proud of his Smartha tradition, essentially propagated by Adi Sankara, i am quite perplexed by this . In what way have we, the Smarthas hurt you .

Remember also that the Brahmanas were not in control of the land or its laws for several centuries if ever. They were the keepers of the tradition at the behest of the maharaja or local chief.They did follow certain rules and did not approve of eating of meat and would not probably allow those who ate meat within the sanctum santorum. But does that mean they deserve the scorn of society and to be held without bail. I find the harshness of the criticism that is leveled against Brhamanas to be vastly disproportionate to their alleged transgressions and stoked by alien rulers of the land to divert attention from their own rather tenuous and highly questionable position in the subcontinent.


Hi Kaushal,

I get along well with all sects of priesthoods, and they with me, almost all proud and supportive of my efforts and endeavours to reestablish an egalitarian Hindu society. I didn't know you are a smartha but realise my comments did not go well. My profuse apologies again, as I mentioned too in my first post on the kanchi arrest.

But I immediately realised the immensity of recent happenings and had to say what I did in the hope that eventually all will realise as events unfold further. I am gathering that members here do not fully comprehend the seriousness of these, and yet to unfold events.

It is not my criticism of the priesthood; I am only telling my reading of the sentiments of the Indian people, which to me is eminently obvious. And Indians are quite aware, being able to differentiate the different priesthood sampradayas. This surprised me.

My reading is that they are quite comfortable with the gurukkals and iyengars, protective even, but not so with the iyers. They are aware of the history of the different traditions, and rightly or wrongly, resolutely pin casteism on the shankaracharyas. Another reason for this is that the other sects of priesthoods have responded to the people, made some reform and revisions, not so the smarthas, except for recent welfare activities. Therefore the mention of smarthas in the unfolding group karma. This karma effects the rest of the community only negatively.

All brahmins have only been good to me personally and I to them. I am not painting an entire community; all I am saying is that when one person in a family has been jeopadised, all members of the family are affected, a group karma taking place. So I understand the anguish. The smarthas can never be alright if their acharya is imprisoned. And the people too will never be comfortable again. This is mob psychology. The whole society is affected but in different ways. No one is saying brush or punish the whole class for a misdeed of one. What I am saying is the class may feel they have lost the moral authority. These are serious implications to consider.

Another thing I was saying about an act of god - it is not the people who are doing this, the people are blameless. It must be attributed to Him, and to Adi Shankara himself. It is his plans. This I am certain. I knew immediately then.

I hope this soothes somewhat.

Aum

Pathma

11-27-2004, 08:35 PM

Pathma,My being a Smartha has nothing to do with anything and there is nothing to apologize. I brought this up merely because you have raised the issue of smarthas numerous times. I am curious to know the reason for your prejudice against smarthas. I realized i was a smartha only when i was well into my 40's. If my parents did not tell me who i was, it was because they themselves had only a hazy notion of the same. Smarthas are impartial in their worship of deities, but i have always had a special affinity for the worship of Shiva. I was not brought up in a religious household. I was not taught the Sandhya and i learnt the Gayatri mantra by accident when i attended a Military school in Nasik in 1956. We have never observed caste differences in our family and there are a fair smattering of various castes represented in our extended family. It would never occur to me to treat a person differently merely based on his accident of birth. We were for all intents and purposes a secular household even by the convoluted definitons that are prevalent in India today.
In fact i consider myself to be a quintessential product of Macaulayism and the Nehruvian weltanschuung. I mention all this to say that my present belief system is based entirely on my own readings and not based on anything hereditary.

Pathma, for all the many travels you claim to have made in India, your view of India is that of a cartoonist. There are no shades of grey. There are evil and there are good people, and from your remarks i gather you have condemned large sections of the priestly class as fundamentally evil. India is a much more complex mosaic than you apparently realize. Everybody who is a Brahmana is not necessarily evil and everybody who is not is not necessarily a saint. It is a sad commentary on our times when we pronounce large classes of people as evil and then select the Iconic leader of a revered monastic order as a symbol of retribution for perceived wrongs done by the Brahmana.

As for the Karmic aspect of what is happening today, i firmly believe in free will and the ability to control ones destiny (sanchita karma and agami karma). It is only Praarabda Karma (natural catastrophies) that we cannot control. Everything else is within our control (1). So i refuse to accept that what is happening is preordained. What is happening is a tawdry drama being staged by a woman of easy virtue a woman who fits the word corrupt to a tee and who rose to her present position because of her skills in the bedroom more than anything else. for her to sit in judgement over a monk of the dasanami order is a perversion of justice and we will fight this injustice with every resource at our disposal .

(1) for a brief description of the different karmas pl. visit my website vepa.us and seek the page on Free will

11-28-2004, 10:45 AM

QUOTESo i asked myself what is it that the Brahmana has done, that is so terrible, that he should earn this burning hatred 

QUOTE I asked him why, and he
remarked that it was the way things are done here and also it would
become very clear that we were brahmins when Periyaval see's us and be
able to talk to us more freely.


QUOTEStrange I thought ascetics
were liberated souls and Madi and Aacharam were only things for the
world of Maya. Again Sankara confuses me..should I beleive his writings
are the way to live or emulate his mutt which is quite the opposite. It
is deep rooted in everything worldly. Or is there something that I dont
understand?


Link

QUOTEà®à®µà®°à¯ à®à¯à®à¯à®à®¤à¯ "à®à®µà®¾ à®¨à®®à¯à®®à®µà®¾à®³à®¾?"
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11-29-2004, 12:19 AM

QUOTE(Kaushal @ Nov 27 2004, 08:35 PM) I am curious to know the reason for your prejudice against smarthas.

There are evil and there are good people, and from your remarks i gather you have condemned large sections of the priestly class as fundamentally evil. It is a sad commentary on our times when we pronounce large classes of people as evilÂ and thenÂ select the Iconic leader of a revered monastic order as a symbol of retribution for perceived wrongs done by the Brahmana.

We could have a good discussion about the ramifications of the smartha sampradaya, Kaushal. We would need experts like Ashok Kumar for input on its origins. Surely they did not appear from nothing in the 8th century. What was their lineage before the 8th century, their philosophy then? Why is this forgotten? Did we have priests before the advent of Adi Shankara?

I have no prejudices against smarthas or anyone; I simply feel that they are standing in the way of a caste free society, which I will explain over time. And again I mean the smartha monasteries and priesthood, not the regular smartha people, 80% of whom are not in the priesthood (and technically not really smarthas). And probably its the smallest of all the priesthood sects and monasteries.

Yes I did say that the smarthas, the smirthis and the caste system is the triple exis of evil plagueing Hinduism. I will explain this, but I am sure you can already see where the 'hate' in Hindu society originated.

But it is incredulous Kaushal that you are oblivious to the resentment the Hindus generally have to the priesthood and caste. If you are in Vizag, just stroll thru the streets and villages and you wont see a ripple, everybody just going thru their lives. This is how Hindus speak.

They also show their resentment by turning to the athiests, secularists and commies. This same resentment translates into discrimination and violence against dalits and primals. We have to ask, who taught them discrimination, and violence against the 'lower classes'? The smirthis did. There is violence and discrimination in them, and so much hate and capital punishment that no Hindu king ever implemented it. The itihasas are books on war and vengence. Who taught the smirthis?

And we must ask, where is the love our saints taught?

Except for Adi Shankara, the lineages contributed nothing to Hinduism for 1300 years, no saints of repute, no reform till the 20th century vedantins, but endless bashya after bashya. I wish to be corrected on this.

Nobody did anything to the kanchi sankaracharya. He did it all himself(presumably, wait for the court to decide). He let down the smarthas. The smarthas have only him to blame, not the people.

But I go further; he was born to face this prarabda karma. He was born to bring an end to the kanchi lineage. He was chosen for it. Therefore I absolve him immediately. I knew it back then in 1987, that he is destined to leave the monastery once again, which he already has. Adi Shankara himself brought several sects to an end during his times. Karma now turning full circle.

Every monastery has different rules, but the usual is, after so many days away and alone in Vellore, JS cannot go back. Dont you see, he is no longer shankaracharya. VS is. He cannot even remove VS. It is VS who must invite him back, as a sadhaka.

Its just my forthrightness.

aum shanti.

Pathma

11-29-2004, 02:36 AM

QUOTEThere is violence and discrimination in them, and so much hate and capital punishment that no Hindu king ever implemented it. The itihasas are books on war and vengence. Who taught the smirthis?


You have clearly been influenced by the white hippie "convert" to Saivism, Sivaya Subramuniyaswami.

What is wrong with capital punishment?

Punishment is the means to maintain law and order in the world. It is Isvara himself who operates the law of karma, which dictates punishments according to the actions of the Jivas. Human law is also modelled on God's law.

So what if the Itihasas are books of war?
War is of equal importance as peace.
This Samsara (material world) operates on Dvandvas (dualities).
The qualities always exist is pairs. Example - heat/cold, war/peace, love/hate etc...

Dvandvas are necessary for the spiritual training of the Jiva. Which is why Isvara has placed the Jiva in a dualistic environment of opposites.

Who are you to question Bhagavan's wisdom in creating the Universe?
Do you know better than Bhagavan on how to run the universe?
If Bhagavan felt that some quality was not essential for our development, it would not be present in the Universe.

The smrtis are law books written by Brahmajnanis. Are you a Jnani yourself?
Have you seen Paramatman - the supreme soul?

How do you know what is the supreme truth and what is good or bad for the spiritual development of the Jiva?

11-29-2004, 02:41 AM

QUOTEWe could have a good discussion about the ramifications of the smartha sampradaya, Kaushal. We would need experts like Ashok Kumar for input on its origins. Surely they did not appear from nothing in the 8th century. What was their lineage before the 8th century, their philosophy then? Why is this forgotten? Did we have priests before the advent of Adi Shankara?


What do you mean lineage before the 8th century?
Adi Sankara came to reinforce the traditional Vaidika Sanatana Dharma as has always existed since time immemorial.

Alternate heretic cults arise at regular intervals in order to act as an intellectual stimulus for the Jivas.

If this were not done, the Jivas would sink into Tamas.
It is only in adversity that the Jiva rises up and developes positive Sattvika qualities.

11-29-2004, 11:05 AM

The old seer of Kani Mutt , the Mahaperiyaval used to say that it is for
us to read , judge and then follow the rules laid down by our texts etc.
It is for us to decide which is good and bad , he said.

<b>Vivekananda , IIRC , once said , of all religious texts in the world it is in the vedas of hindus it is declared said that study of vedas themselves might be secondary ! </b>

So , such texts (itihaasas) are questionable.

12-06-2004, 11:58 PM

Crisis before Brahminism

**acharya** · 12-07-2004, 12:03 AM

Crisis before Brahminism

Human Voices /Gautam Siddharth

What happens when politics, which emphasises differences, comes into confrontation with dharma, a unifying force? The arrest and incarceration of Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham's Shankaracharya Jayendra Saraswati is more than just a war within Hinduism, between its aastik and naastik followers. It is about votes and filthy lucre. As Sunday Pioneer's Astrowise columnist, Mr Bharat Bhushan, wrote last Sunday, whether or not there is truth in the allegations against the Shankaracharya, the fact that a high Hindu religious figure has been subjected to such ignominy itself defines a moment of crisis for both the country and its singular unifying faith - represented particularly by Brahminism.

There appears another co-relation between Shankaracharya's arrest and potential social unrest. With Bihar, Jharkhand, Chhattisgarh and Andhra Pradesh - Uttar Pradesh could now well be added to the list - facing Naxalite violence, such a development will only fuel cynicism in people's mind in regard to religion and act as cannon-fodder for Maoist propaganda against faith.

While the Naxalites may find it easier to recruit "backward" youth, who would be more disillusioned than ever with the "Brahminical" religion, the Tamil Nadu Police's action - questions will always be raised whether it was at the behest of the State's political leadership - will engender another extreme reaction - only shades of which we have seen so far - in the far right. Just as there will be sections of society which will get disenchanted with religion, there shall be those who will perceive in the Shankaracharya's arrest, an assault on Hinduism, see it as a conspiracy to humiliate it, and rally around with a cause that could create more social tension.

This is not the first time that religion has been used by the political class to divide society towards electoral ends. Indira Gandhi had done the same with Sikhism, the consequence of which was Bluestar and a series of political assassinations, one of which claimed her life and ended only with the killing of the Chief Minister of Punjab in 1994, Beant Singh.

To matters a little removed, however, how does Hinduism connect our vast and diverse country? Which strain of Sanatan Dharma finds an unmistakable resonance in every part of the land? It is fact that no matter which region of the country you are in, the only "caste" of Hindus present everywhere is of Brahmins. Brahminism has been reviled - indeed, to do so in recent years has assumed the nature of a fad with large sections of the cosmopolitan intelligentsia - as exploitative and something degenerate and regressive. But take Brahminism away from Hindu society and you are left with a body without its soul.

While there may have been great cause in Tamil Nadu to rise against orthodox Brahminism with all its attendant evils sprouting from shuddhi, like untouchability, it is equally a fact that the institution of Brahminism led by the Shankaracharyas has undertaken social reforms at crucial stages of India's social history.

One of Adi Shankaracharya's (eighth century) finest poems, 'Manisha Panchakam', was inspired by his dialogue with a Chandala, a member of the lowest caste. Once, when Shankara was on his way to the temple after a bath in the Ganga, he found a Chandala with four dogs blocking his path. His caste prejudice flared up when the Chandala refused to step aside, and asked him to do so. But the Chandala asked: "If there is only one existence, what is it that you want to drive away: My body or my soul? If it is my body, both your and mine are made up of the same physical elements.

But if it is my soul, it is also no different from yours. How can therefore be any distinctions of caste and creed?" Filled with remorse, Shankara prostrated himself before the Chandala. The bard in him sang: "He who has learnt to see one existence everywhere/ he is my master - be he a Brahmin or a Chandala."

Again, when Goswami Tulsidas recreated Valmiki's Ramayan in Awadhi, the language of commoners, he was denounced by the purblind Brahminical order of the day. It was the then Shankaracharya who gave dharma's sanction to the transcreation of Ramayana, which reached out to a vast populace. It was a revolutionary movement, a reinvention of such brilliance that only Sanatan Dharma was capable of.

Ever since it came into existence, the institution of Shankaracharya has functioned as the confluence between grihastha and sanyasa ashramas. An incredibly subtle, invisible tapestry has been woven into Hindu social fabric as a result. As vitraagis, a class of people beyond raag (attachment) - who have upheld virtues like satya (truth), ahimsa (non-violence), asteya (above stealing), aparigraha (renunciation), and brahmacharya (devotion to other ethical principles) - Brahmins have for aeons been considered ideals worth emulating in Hindu society.

They have been the fulcrum of Hindu social order and upholders of heritage, and this is what makes India a continuous civilisation. Brahmins have epitomised the Swami-Sanyasi tradition that has periodically cleansed and purged Hindu society of its ills and exploitative elements, and though there have been occasions in the past when their authority has been sought to be undermined, by kings and commoners alike, the institution has not just survived but emerged more robust than before.

The arrest of Shankaracharya Jayendra Saraswati may unfold one of the gravest crisis ever before Brahminism and, by extension, Hinduism, but its resilience will - make no mistake - eventually be measured by its own peculiar genius to surmount it.

12-07-2004, 12:26 AM

In all the hullabaloo it is often forgotten that it is only in the Sanatana Dharma that one can question any text or belief and still call oneself a Hindu. It is certainly not permitted in any other system of belief and least of all in the other popular religion of India namely communism. Surely there can be no more democratic system than this. To paraphrase an expression 'what more do you want ' ?

It is this eclectic value sytem that thedetractors of Hinduism abhor and fear the most. So to attack an icon of the Dharma is not consequential to the Dharma itself.

12-07-2004, 06:23 PM

Spinster i have emailed a PM with my address.

12-14-2004, 06:11 PM

Friends,

It is clear you have misunderstood me, and I you. If it is okay with you, I shall address all questions over time, regarding my posts and views to clarify and clear the air.

Once again, I am a devout and dedicated Hindu and hate none - and not dravidianist, communalist, JNU, LTTE, tamil supremacist, brahmin basher, seccessionist, etc. No one can be all these at the same time.

I have widely differing views though, which properly explained, you will agree has merit.

Here is a strong one. <!--emo& Smile

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />

More Impending Disasters

Hindus are divided now; those who think the kanchi arrest is one
nasty conspiracy, and those who dont. Those who dont are
supposed to offer sympathies, platitudes to the great work the
archarya, etc., else be condemned. By this itself, the 'conspiracy
believers' push themselves even further away from the main
body of Hindus. This is what most of the brahmin community is
doing, further alieanating themselves for all to see. They have
gone into a denial mode and cannot believe this is a karmic
payback time, never once thinking that they made mistakes, no
matter how many times we told them. They were just not good at
listening. <!--emo& Smile

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />

Hindus are not in a destructive or self destruct mode, rather
passively progressive. They are allowing outmoded institutions
to wither. There is a near total disconnect between the people of
TN and kanchi mutt. Whether the mutt stays or closes or
relocates to Sringeri would probably make no difference to the
people. There is almost complete indifference towards the mutt.
It does not serve the people nor is a spiritual beacon to them.
Inequity is the main reason. The people resent that and revolt by
being apathetical to orthodoxy and drifting to athiest, leftist and
secularists parties. In a way, the mutt has overstayed their
welcome. These are my reading of the situation in TN. But the
people are religious inspite of supporting athiestic parties. So
there is no need for despair. Witness the popularity of the
charismatic gurus.

In all the opinions presented in the media and forums hardly
one see these events as a karma of the seer,
of the muttt and the sampradaya. They do not see that karma is
'the love of god', necessary to cleanse all of us, and to be
joyously welcomed. Er, except for the people of Tamilnadu. <!--emo& Smile

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' />
The rest are disbelievers in the law of karma.

I am surprised that CS didn't have a clue of these impending
events. A horoscope check on JS and VS would have indicated
these trying periods in their lives. Why are the astrologists silent
now? Well maybe not that surprised, as probably CS knew, and
chose to remain silent, as he was 'told' to accept these karmas.

Either that or this is also the demise of Hindu astrology. There
goes one upaveda out the window!

As regards the mutt, let me explain, with trepidation, what I was
hesitant to say earlier, being afraid of upsetting people.

The monks at kanchi mutt have to make a decision as to
whether they still have a guru, and which one would that be, and
as to whether in taking their sannyas diksha they have received
the shaktipat. Only a realised soul, one that has established
himself in the clear white light - satchitananda, and able to see
the central burning sun above his head, would be able to grant
shaktipat to monks, and guide them in their tapas, and convey
the power of the sampradaya thru this process. Such a soul can
leave his body at his choosing in an instant. Such a realised
soul can not fall from grace. The gods, as well as the whole line
of predecessor gurus will not allow it. Unless of course that is
their plan.

I hope it is understood what I am trying to say without being
impolitely explicit.

Monks cannot perform their tapas effectively when there is an air
of suspicion, distrust and a pall of shame surrounding them.
The resident sannyasins are victims of this episode. JS cannot
guide his monks from where he is. VS is too young and
inexperienced. The fact he has not visited his guru tells.

It is this that I am really, really ashamed of! VS is destroying the
guru-disciple relationship, the grandest Hindu tradition, right
before our eyes. He cannot, must not be the successor. We have
to tell JS this.

As I mentioned earlier, monasteries have rules. When a monk
leaves a monastery alone for more than a few days, he is no
longer considered a monk. That was the case in 1987 but CS
overlooked it. Right now, technically, VS is the shankaracharya. I
am not sure of the ascension rules but I think it is automatic.
Perhaps this is why VS does not go and visit JS in Vellore and
take instructions from his guru. JS would be furious by now, I'm
sure. This fact alone indicates there is friction between JS and
VS, and an impending disaster awaiting us.

Whether JS is acquitted or convicted may not matter. Events are
already overtaking. The way I see it, if JS is acquitted, then there
may also be a problem. The group around VS may not allow him
to receive back JS as the succession may have already come to
pass. It may lead to a conflict with litigation and counter suits
deadlocked in the courts and the mutt's funds frozen. If he is
convicted, he will die in jail. Either way it is going to be difficult for
the mutt to carry on. That was my point - shut the mutt down.

Murder trials and appeals, and even litigation between JS and
VS could extend over 6 years, 2010, and JS will be 76 then, his
own predicted life span. We have to endure these years. Even an
eventual acquittal will have no meaning for JS.

I am told that it takes about 5-8 days to breakdown a hardcore
criminal, 3 days for others and just 1 or 2 days for a newbie
criminal. I am told that all they have to do is order a remanded
person to follow him to another room, order him to sit down, or
stand up with 5 other burly cops sitting around, fling a file on the
table or shout at someone on the cellphone. That is enough to
breakdown a person and obtain a confession. The question as
to whether to release a detainee for lack of evidence can be
decided in 3 days. It has been
a month now.

Moreover I am told that in high profile cases usually the police
obtain a confession or witness before making an arrest. They
will not risk anything less. I would not be surprised if the 2
murderers are already on police watch in safe houses just
waiting to be brought in.

Knowing the DMK parties in TN, the Kanchi mutt should be
aware that the police videotaped confessions will ultimately, no
matter how long it takes, be 'leaked', and will become the largest
selling VCD in India. When it does it would be inconsequential
whether JS is acquitted or convicted, or JS or VS is the
shankaracharya. I can almost swear that it is already available
for private viewing in Chennai. Hence the muted silence, and the
quiet call for 'let the law take its course'.

This, and the flash of images in the world media of JS being led
to the court, in cuffs, is another impending disaster for all
Hindus, even to me, who had nothing to do with it.

If these events come to pass, the kanchi mutt will be a source of
embaressment to all Hindus worldwide, to all mutts and the
priesthood in general too. It is for these reasons that I said that it
will be difficult for the mutt to carry on. Aghast and demoralised,
monks will just walk out of the mutt as the trial goes on. If the
mutt remains, it will be an albatross of shame around our necks.

I am certain all this has dawned on JS too, and I'm almost sure,
and know that he is bold enough to make certain decisions even
before the trial. If he doesn't maybe we should tell him to do so.

These are my views, guesses - the usual routine hollerin', and I
could be wholly wrong. No aspersions please and forgive the
forthrightness.

Regards and aum.

Pathma

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