The Real Indian IQ

[ramana]

Here is youtube link to a spiel on future competeitors

http://www.youtube.com/v/cL9Wu2kWwSY

[Guest]

So why do SIB have higher IQ?

[G.Subramaniam]

<!--QuoteBegin-Swamy G+May 30 2009, 12:28 AM-->QUOTE(Swamy G @ May 30 2009, 12:28 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->So why do SIB have higher IQ?
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At all caste levels, IMHO, southern castes are about 5 IQ more than northern castes

The reason is the islamic control of north India for centuries
whereas it was very fleeting in south India

What happened is that muslims selectively massacred the community leaders of each caste, to terrorise the rest into converting

As such the northern castes have a truncated bell curve at the right extremity

If we compare Italy to Greece,
Italy has an IQ of 101 vs 94 in Greece
Historically both Italy and Greece were equally advanced areas

But Greece came under islamic rule and forced conversions and islamic massacres of the native elite

7 IQ points is 0.5 SD

I think I did write about it in this thread earlier

[G.Subramaniam]

All the academic awards are at the 4 SD level, > 160 IQ

Only the brahmin / some merchant castes are likely at this level

These academic awards reflect their caste and not the entire Indian diaspora

Over 50% of the US Indian diaspora consist of castes who will never be at this level
However many of these castes will have over 125 IQ and be doctors, engineers etc

[G.Subramaniam]

Caste breakdown of Indian spelling bee winners

1985 - Balu Natarajan - SIB
1988 - Rageshree Ramachandran - SIB
1999 - Nupur Lala - Northern Merchant
2000 - George Thampy - Southern Merchant
2002 - Pratyush Buddiga - SIB
2003 - Sai Gunturi - SIB
2005 - Anurag Kashyap - NIB
2008 - Sameer Mishra - NIB
2009 - Kavya Shivshankar - SIB

In the 2009 finalists - 7 Indian finalists
there were 2 SIB, 2 Southern Merchants and 3 Northern merchants

The more visible Gujurati and Punjabi castes who form 50% of the US diaspora and 80% of the UK diaspora are almost entirely absent from the finalists ( not just winners ) going back several years

The spelling bee is not due to Indian diaspora but rather due to specific caste diaspora

[Hauma Hamiddha]

very interesting to note that deshI-s are doing well in this bee thing. What about the orientals? GS do you have the data from SAT scores on how well deshI-s do?

BTW surveys have shown that science prof in the US apparently have IQs of 132 and higher. The average for nobel prize winners is around 145 they say.

[acharya]

<!--QuoteBegin-Hauma Hamiddha+May 29 2009, 04:12 PM-->QUOTE(Hauma Hamiddha @ May 29 2009, 04:12 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->very interesting to note that deshI-s are doing well in this bee thing. What about the orientals? GS do you have the data from SAT scores on how well deshI-s do?

BTW surveys have shown that science prof in the US apparently have IQs of 132 and higher. The average for nobel prize winners is around 145 they say.
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Why does not Indians come at this level for Math olympiad in India and west.

[Hauma Hamiddha]

<!--QuoteBegin-acharya+May 29 2009, 11:43 PM-->QUOTE(acharya @ May 29 2009, 11:43 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->[Why does not Indians come at this level for Math olympiad in India and west.
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Acharya- You must ask GS for the Math Olympiad Stats -- I do not know. I think GS's estimates of IQs for Indians are believable in the ball-park range. So there should be Indians in the Math olympiad range IQ. But I think beyond a certain threshold training in solving problems might be of greater importance than raw IQ. You can have a high IQ and yet not know integral log(x)dx for example.

[G.Subramaniam]

<!--QuoteBegin-Hauma Hamiddha+May 30 2009, 10:45 AM-->QUOTE(Hauma Hamiddha @ May 30 2009, 10:45 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-acharya+May 29 2009, 11:43 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(acharya @ May 29 2009, 11:43 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->[Why does not Indians come at this level for Math olympiad in India and west.
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Acharya- You must ask GS for the Math Olympiad Stats -- I do not know. I think GS's estimates of IQs for Indians are believable in the ball-park range. So there should be Indians in the Math olympiad range IQ. But I think beyond a certain threshold training in solving problems might be of greater importance than raw IQ. You can have a high IQ and yet not know integral log(x)dx for example.
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In the US, several Indians have represented the US in the Math olympiad
In the 2007 and 2008 teams

In India, the support structure for the math olympiad is absent
There is a math professor in Pune who is doing this on his own running coaching classes

What happens in India is this
The math olympiad competes with board exam, JEE etc
and compared to board exam and JEE , math olympiad is low on the list of priorities

In china for example, the math olympiad contestants are guaranteed fall back seats in professional colleges, so they can focus full time on math olympiad

[G.Subramaniam]

<!--QuoteBegin-Hauma Hamiddha+May 30 2009, 09:42 AM-->QUOTE(Hauma Hamiddha @ May 30 2009, 09:42 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->very interesting to note that deshI-s are doing well in this bee thing. What about the orientals? GS do you have the data from SAT scores on how well deshI-s do?

BTW surveys have shown that science prof in the US apparently have IQs of 132 and higher. The average for nobel prize winners is around 145 they say.
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In the 2002 SATs

by rank

1. Unitarians 1200
2. Quakers 1170
3. Jews 1150
4. Hindus 1110

Orientals are significantly behind, just ahead of whites , since they lag whites in verbal

[Guest]

So do Indians have special capabilities that the rest of the World does not have?
Do you have evidences to support that the Islamic invaders killed selectively? For example it is documented that Dubois sought the conversions of brahmins into Christianity. But even there it is not clear that they were raw IQ.

[G.Subramaniam]

<!--QuoteBegin-Swamy G+May 30 2009, 07:27 PM-->QUOTE(Swamy G @ May 30 2009, 07:27 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->So do Indians have special capabilities that the rest of the World does not have?
Do you have evidences to support that the Islamic invaders killed selectively? For example it is documented that Dubois sought the conversions of brahmins into Christianity. But even there it is not clear that they were raw IQ.
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One of the side effects of the caste system and the specific job areas of each caste and endogamy is that those who dont have strengths in the caste skills go extinct

So just like dog breeds optimised for skils in different areas
Indians are optimised skills in their caste areas

Something similar happened to the jews

Thanks to the oral tradition, memory skills ( an important part of IQ )
became optimised to a large extent in the brahmin caste and a lesser extent in the merchant castes

The merchant castes also became optimised like the jews in commercial math
and networking skills

Another caste that I expect to show up in higher IQ is the vishwa karma caste
thanks to hand-eye co-ordination skills ( which is the largest part of the brain )

The muslims did 2 kinds of massacre, first is general massacre
Next is community leader forced conversion or death, example being events leading to death of Guru Tegh Bahadur
Community leaders will tend to have higher IQ than the masses

Another indirect effect of islam suppressing the IQ of brahmins is this
In south India, brahmins kept to their traditional teaching and chanting jobs
and the evolutionary pressures thereof, maintained their IQ

whereas in north India, thanks to the islamic disruption, many brahmins had to make a living in non-traditional areas and that weakened the darwinian pressure for higher IQ

[Guest]

I agree about community leaders. They have something more than just raw IQ. They are street smart, have passion and ambition to be where they are. To an extent they are part of the cream of a society.

In the right setting then IQ can be nurtured across generations among various class of people, right?

_______

An important question, how can IQ and/or memory skills improved? I like to improve mine :-)

[Guest]

Swamy G,
too late, you should have selected mother from North and father from south or other way round.

Swamy G,
Not sure how much this valid, but this what I have heard from my ancestors.
Importance of Gotra, North South marriage, or Brahamin son marrying merchant or Khatri girl.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+May 30 2009, 11:04 PM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ May 30 2009, 11:04 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Not sure how much this valid, but this what I have heard from my ancestors.
Importance of Gotra, North South marriage, or Brahamin son marrying merchant or Khatri girl.
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Mudyji
Are you mixing caste with gotra?

PS: What is the effect of nutrition on IQ?

[Guest]

Seriously, don't I have any chance to improve my memory - hence retention and possibly IQ?

[G.Subramaniam]

<!--QuoteBegin-Swamy G+May 30 2009, 10:53 PM-->QUOTE(Swamy G @ May 30 2009, 10:53 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->I agree about community leaders. They have something more than just raw IQ. They are street smart, have passion and ambition to be where they are. To an extent they are part of the cream of a society.

In the right setting then IQ can be nurtured across generations among various class of people, right?

_______

An important question, how can IQ and/or memory skills improved? I like to improve mine :-)
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--

IQ is 80% genetic
I have seen some recent studies that seem to show the IQ is at least 82% genetic

This would seem to recommend marrying within your own caste
( on a regional level , same sub-caste not required )

On the lower end, IQ can be reduced by malnutrition
mild malnutrition causes a 7 IQ drop ( Pune study )

Lack of Iron, Iodine, Vitamins, proteins, minerals etc can all cause 10-15 IQ drop

Once nutrition is rectified, only then is IQ measurement meaningful

Assuming that you have enough nutrition

Only behavioral methods, done in early childhood can help
before age 8

Direct Instruction causes a 15 point IQ boost, permanently
Precision Teaching causes a 15 point IQ boost, permanently
Both are behavioral methods

You can google them up

So if you have a kid, use it on them before age 8

The 15 IQ boost is for black kids
For non-black kids, there are preliminary indications that the boost is much higher
maybe 20 points. 25 points

I tried DI on my niece at Age 3 and she learnt to phonetic read in 1 month
She later got 1380 in SAT at age 12, which translates into a raw ( age uncorrected ) IQ of 135 at age 12 on a test for 16 year olds

By multiplying this by the age correction factor, ( 16 / 12 ),
this interpolates to 180 IQ,

Obviously this is too high, more likely around 165 IQ

[G.Subramaniam]

<!--QuoteBegin-sroy+May 30 2009, 11:07 PM-->QUOTE(sroy @ May 30 2009, 11:07 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+May 30 2009, 11:04 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mudy @ May 30 2009, 11:04 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Not sure how much this valid, but this what I have heard from my ancestors.
Importance of Gotra, North South marriage, or Brahamin son marrying merchant or Khatri girl.
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Mudyji
Are you mixing caste with gotra?

PS: What is the effect of nutrition on IQ?
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Per the Pune study, ( 1999 ?? )
mild malnutrition causes a 7 point IQ drop

By comparing American Blacks with African Blacks, there seems to be 15 point IQ hit
so severe malnutrition and bad societal impact can drop IQ by 15

[Guest]

There are only two case where Noble Prize winner's kid also won Noble prize, otherwise kids are just average. Why ? Genetically they should be bright but it is other way round.

I have met a person who is product of rape, but this Girl is very bright. Her MCAT percentile was 98.7%. Father/rapist was homeless 8th grade drop out, mother is hairdreser.

[HareKrishna]

<!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+May 31 2009, 10:18 AM-->QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ May 31 2009, 10:18 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-sroy+May 30 2009, 11:07 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(sroy @ May 30 2009, 11:07 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+May 30 2009, 11:04 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mudy @ May 30 2009, 11:04 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Not sure how much this valid, but this what I have heard from my ancestors.
Importance of Gotra, North South marriage, or Brahamin son marrying merchant or Khatri girl.
[right][snapback]97996[/snapback][/right]
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Mudyji
Are you mixing caste with gotra?

PS: What is the effect of nutrition on IQ?
[right][snapback]97997[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Per the Pune study, ( 1999 ?? )
mild malnutrition causes a 7 point IQ drop

By comparing American Blacks with African Blacks, there seems to be 15 point IQ hit
so severe malnutrition and bad societal impact can drop IQ by 15
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there are 3 posible reasons for this gap
-american-blacks mixed whit smart whites(17% of black genom is from white origin)
-better nutrition(proposed by Lynn)
-better education
-better education along the generations.

CHinese ,askenazi jews and brahmans have high iq.What they have in common?The answer is their culture of study.
Southern chinese have same iq as north chinese despite the fact that they are geneticaly more similar whit southeast asians.The exam tradition started in the 4 century lead to selection of smart genes along the generations(others propose that they have an ideogram writing and this lead to high visual iq;though some claim that this dificult writing lead to great loses in economic growth comparative whit the alphabet)
In the same way brahmans and askenazi jews have selected the smart genes along the generations from even older times then chinese.

PS-native australians have an high iq on visual memory ,an adaptation of australian region.
I wonder what adaptations indians have.From my observation seems that indians have a high imagination and memory,an adaptation of the indian enviroment.