The Real Indian IQ

G.Subramaniam · 05-31-2009, 11:24 AM

QUOTE(Mudy @ May 31 2009, 10:59 AM)There are only two case where Noble Prize winner's kid also won Noble prize, otherwise kids are just average. Why ? Genetically they should be bright but it is other way round.

I have met a person who is product of rape, but this Girl is very bright. Her MCAT percentile was 98.7%. Father/rapist was homeless 8th grade drop out, mother is hairdreser.
[right][snapback]98043[/snapback][/right]


Regression to the mean

means a given a 150 IQ guy from a caste with 100 IQ average
His kids will likely have 110 IQ
meaning they will regress 80% towards the mean

For example blacks making over $100k a year will have kids doing at the level of
kids of white welfare trailer people

What is happening is the black guy with 105 IQ, ( bare college pass )
gets due to affirmative action , a cushy 100k job

The black average is 85 in US

The black 100k guy of 105 IQ will have kids at 89 IQ

In the indian case,
due to generations of sub-caste endogamy, the IQ has been homogenised to a large extent
Meaning I guess Indian Standard Deviation is more like 10, not 15
so there is very little regression to the mean

And that is why in the US new immigrant survey,
Indian immigrants score at 112 IQ

In my case, I have seen the IQ effect of my maternal grandfather carrying on for 3 generations without any regression

G.Subramaniam · 05-31-2009, 11:28 AM

Precision teaching has to do with fluency and speed

One thing that may help is something like Nintendo DS - Brain Age

Husky · (This post was last modified: 06-11-2009, 07:45 PM by Husky.)

These "Take an IQ test" ads ("This Famous Person has an IQ of 1xx, how much is yours?") continue to keep popping up. Weird. Why the ads?
Saw 2 today in the ad-space at Rajeev2004 blog.

Useless trivia from there:
- Brad Pitt at 119 (compared to Paris Hilton at 120 - I didn't see that coming...)
- Nicole Kidman at 132

Found at later times:
QUOTEMore trivia: Came across yet another advert just now. Sharon Stone's is at 154. That's some amazing digits.QUOTEAnd another such advert:
Christina Aguilera's IQ = 132.

HareKrishna · 05-31-2009, 03:55 PM

QUOTE(Husky @ May 31 2009, 01:22 PM)These "Take an IQ test" ads ("This Famous Person has an IQ of 1xx, how much is yours?") continue to keep popping up. Weird. Why the ads?
Saw 2 today in the ad-space at Rajeev2004 blog.

Useless trivia from there:
- Brad Pitt at 119 (compared to Paris Hilton at 120 - I didn't see that coming...)
- Nicole Kidman at 132
[right][snapback]98054[/snapback][/right]

probably need registration first <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='unsure.gif' />

G.Subramaniam · 05-31-2009, 08:24 PM

QUOTE(Husky @ May 31 2009, 01:22 PM)These "Take an IQ test" ads ("This Famous Person has an IQ of 1xx, how much is yours?") continue to keep popping up. Weird. Why the ads?
Saw 2 today in the ad-space at Rajeev2004 blog.

Useless trivia from there:
- Brad Pitt at 119 (compared to Paris Hilton at 120 - I didn't see that coming...)
- Nicole Kidman at 132
[right][snapback]98054[/snapback][/right]


To get the scores you will need to pay $50

HareKrishna · 05-31-2009, 08:28 PM

QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ May 31 2009, 08:24 PM)<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Husky @ May 31 2009, 01:22 PM)These "Take an IQ test" ads ("This Famous Person has an IQ of 1xx, how much is yours?") continue to keep popping up. Weird. Why the ads?
Saw 2 today in the ad-space at Rajeev2004 blog.

Useless trivia from there:
- Brad Pitt at 119 (compared to Paris Hilton at 120 - I didn't see that coming...)
- Nicole Kidman at 132
[right][snapback]98054[/snapback][/right]


To get the scores you will need to pay $50
[right][snapback]98083[/snapback][/right]
</div>
better perform a free test like the one from above;that test required registration for seing the results but is free.

brihaspati · 05-31-2009, 09:37 PM

Partly agree to the "caste" basis of Indian IQ, but on the other hand, need more calibration against actual environmental factors. Even within say NIB/SIB, comparisons should take into account the proportion among these castes who show high IQ, i.e., the frequency distribution within the caste. Further, I suspect there is a very strong correlation with early intellectual stimulus within these castes among certain families or clans.

Since I teach maths at the university/post-grad level in a system where there is no selection exam pre-uni filtering, I have not been able to see cases where, environmental stimulus and gentics could not be separated for a proper experimental study. I have found that a certain level of maths cannot be drilled into someone even from B caste groups. There appears to be a threshold which can be crossed by non B, nonKhatri cases, and which B/Khatri do not appear to cross as a rule. I have had PhD students showing that extra spark who come from non-B/K background, and above 140 seems to be random.

My parents were advised to treat me as a 6-1/2 when I was 2. But parents were sane enough to get me into school at normal ages. Later tests admin through school showed close to a double "ratio". And I usually studied texts of much higher levels and finished school texts within a couple of months. This appeared to be inherited, both from paternal and maternal lines. But they do not belong to the same "gotra", or originally from the same region. Each had intermarried closely within a restricted class of family lines, on an average around 3 trees. My parents were the first such "cross-clan" marriage.

A lady I know closely, comes from Russian father, German mother - is an exceptionally talented mathematician. Scores around 160. Her sister is 125. Probably the source is the father, but then it did not pass on to all siblings. The family originally was displaced a lot due to the revolution and wars, and suffered horribly because the granddad was in the "white army". So environmental factors had been highly negative.

05-31-2009, 10:07 PM

QUOTEPartly agree to the "caste" basis of Indian IQ, but on the other hand, need more calibration against actual environmental factors
My father family went through lot of struggle, because of partition, later Nationalization of their assets which caused major financial struggle, uprooted couple of times but all his brothers(5) and Sisters(2) were top scorer and all had atleast one Master degree. All have professional degree with honors and doctorate. My father had three PG and doctrate. Same is with children and cousins.

Environment had little or no effect. Even if I check his cousins etc, no drop out, all are atleast Post graduate.

Husky · (This post was last modified: 05-31-2009, 10:29 PM by Husky.)

QUOTE(HareKrishna @ May 31 2009, 08:28 PM)<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ May 31 2009, 08:24 PM)<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Husky @ May 31 2009, 01:22 PM)These "Take an IQ test" ads ("This Famous Person has an IQ of 1xx, how much is yours?") continue to keep popping up. Weird. Why the ads?
Saw 2 today in the ad-space at Rajeev2004 blog.

Useless trivia from there:
- Brad Pitt at 119 (compared to Paris Hilton at 120 - I didn't see that coming...)
- Nicole Kidman at 132
[right][snapback]98054[/snapback][/right]


To get the scores you will need to pay $50
[right][snapback]98083[/snapback][/right]
</div>
better perform a free test like the one from above;that test required registration for seing the results but is free.
[right][snapback]98086[/snapback][/right]</div>
You're both absolutely joking. I don't understand how I managed to give the impression that I was contemplating taking that test. (I was merely wondering why they keep advertising for it all of a sudden. What are they trying to sell?)

Free or not, I will never take an IQ test (don't need numbers to tell me what I can and can't do. Even if it's 'only' an estimate. I'd rather be ignorant of 'potential' and convince myself I can do anything and that way just get as many things done as I can. Hasn't killed me yet.)

But we can all estimate it: take the square-root of 13.
Let me guess: I'm the only one going "Where's my calculator" on that one <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='laugh.gif' /> <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ROTFL.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ROTFL.gif' /> <i>Deeply sad.</i>
No. It's worse than that, I'm afraid. I'm the *only* one laughing at my jokes. <- I'm sure there's an IQ penalty for that too (yes, it's the square-root of 13). <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ROTFL.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ROTFL.gif' />

G.Subramaniam · 06-01-2009, 12:11 AM

Brihaspati,
the demand for Affirmative Action and the demand to extend Affirmative Action to rich members of OBC castes and the demand not to extend Affirmative Action to poor members of forward castes for a period of 60 years kind of denotes
that rich OBC castes cannot compete with poor forward castes

You can also note that in academic contests in the US diaspora, certain castes are over-represented and certain castes are absent among the winners and finalists

This points to a sizable genetic component for IQ

Always there is a bell curve and this means that some OBC castes will have higher IQ than some forward castes

During the Mandal controversy, I remember reading of a large scale IQ test
in IQ which showed Dalits at 75, OBC at 88 and Forward castes at 102
I believe this studied the pre-quota performance

I also believe that among the OBC castes, some, especially the viswha karma castes, given education, will match the forward castes academically

I also believe that a certain amount of quota is actually beneficial for forward castes, since it forces by darwinian selection, the improvement of IQ among the forward castes

Sort of how a predator improves the fitness of the prey species by removing the weak from the gene pool

G.Subramaniam · 06-01-2009, 12:14 AM

brihaspati wrote

Further, I suspect there is a very strong correlation with early intellectual stimulus within these castes among certain families or clans.

--

There have been several studies of head start programs for blacks
While there was a short term gain due to head start, it could not be sustained unless special methods like Direct Instruction and Precision Teaching were also employed

brihaspati · 06-01-2009, 02:08 AM

Subramaniamji,

I was just thinking up all the cases I know of within the family tree. And it does appear that language, maths and music skills seem to be inherited as a group. Multilingualism, abstract mathematical skills, art and music seems to come together. And in my students, I can recognize that only a few cross a certain threshold which I can identify as compatible with myself. That level does seem to exist by birth, and cannot be really trained. Once such a brain is available, communication becomes very natural - and teaching or research based on such communication becomes fluid.

But not all in the same clan/caste group cross that level, but reach a high performance level due to persistence, trained habits, and commitment, all with perhaps a basic higher level of IQ.

But there could be some orders of difference between this above average IQ and a certain peculiar ability in abstract or pure maths. The latter does not seem to be "trainable" in a fundamental sense.

Could there be different types of IQ and the caste patterns that emerge in one respect change in another "type" of IQ?

**Hauma Hamiddha** · 06-01-2009, 02:58 AM

While mathematical, musical and linguistic IQ are distinct there is evidence for an underlying single measure of intelligence 'g'. To use a common computer analogy this g is dependent on both RAM and hard disk - we all know that a computer which is good in just one of these aspects is not enough for overall performance. In the case of the brain both of these have clear biological determinants and are hence largely governed by genetics. However, we do not yet understand completely all the genetics behind this as yet (I had posted an article I wrote on this some time back). So just as by fiddling with the software you cannot change the hardware limitations you are left with the impossible task of choosing your parents, if other things are equal e.g. nutrition or health.

This said raw IQ is not enough at the highest levels of science or maths because you need to have a lot of prior knowledge of literature to perform at the cutting edge. This is where training matters and has an effect. Ultimately to be effective you need to know your field well.

In the case of highest brAhmaNa-s they learned the shruti by heart (a test of hard disk) and applied in performing extremely complex shrauta rituals. In this task they had to retrieve parts of the shruti in many different ways and on the fly transform it by applying operators that can be considered analogs of things like the Hamiltonian. The kShatriya-s and other Hindu rulers including enterprising shUdra-s always rewarded such shrauta brAhmaNa-s and kept them at hand by sending them to settle villages. Here, they or members of their family might additionally act as secular advisers who help in directing finances, construction of irrigation systems, town planning and systematizing various forms of knowledge by writing shAstra-s. The older dharma texts (e.g. bodhAyana) say that the brAhmaNa-s who fail to hold the high standards could be used as shUdra-s by the king.

The other groups undergoing their own selection were the vaishya-s and the kAyastha-s. However, once the super-structure that supported this system broke down these few groups could not really salvage India on their own.

G.Subramaniam · (This post was last modified: 06-01-2009, 06:33 AM by G.Subramaniam.)

Another part explanation for the NIB - SIB IQ difference

Anti- brahmin Quotas have been in place in old Madras Presidency
for about 4 generations
Those SIBs who survived the quota had to be of a much higher IQ than the pre-quota

Whereas in north India, Mandal is rather recent and with private sector jobs opening up, the selection pressure is a lot less

So, for SIBs even a 1 IQ selection bias per generation could build up to 4 IQ in 4 generations

HareKrishna · 06-01-2009, 11:05 AM

QUOTE(Husky @ May 31 2009, 10:19 PM)

Free or not, I will never take an IQ test (don't need numbers to tell me what I can and can't do. Even if it's 'only' an estimate. I'd rather be ignorant of 'potential' and convince myself I can do anything and that way just get as many things done as I can. Hasn't killed me yet.)


it also have been tested that ambition is just as important as the iq for an individual.We just suposed that curiosity will drawn you to self-analising your brain.Is just like curiosity to find the final score of a game whit the diference that here is the desire of scientific knowledge at the stake. <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tv_feliz.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tv_feliz.gif' />

06-01-2009, 11:20 AM

QUOTE(Husky @ Jun 1 2009, 09:28 AM)More trivia: Came across yet another advert just now. Sharon Stone's is at 154. That's some amazing digits.
[right][snapback]98141[/snapback][/right]

She did dumb thing in San Francisco Zoo.
She is a member of MENSA.

**Hauma Hamiddha** · 06-10-2009, 09:05 AM

Why not just bundle the IQ reports of various mAgadha-s and sailUSha-s into one post rather than posting them one at a time.

Steven Rose's view point on IQ
Husky may be you would support this viewpoint.
Ceci et al on IQ
They also hold a view that IQ differences are due to nurture not nature. But they are more balanced and make the following statement:
"Some scientists hold more 'acceptable' views, ourselves included. We think racial and gender differences in IQ are not innate but instead reflect environmental challenges. Although we endorse this view, plenty of scholars remain unpersuaded. Whereas our 'politically correct' work garners us praise, speaking invitations and book contracts, challengers are demeaned, ostracized and occasionally threatened with tenure revocation."

Of course the weight of the evidence supports a biological basis for IQ and most likely a major component of it is founded on genetics. This view is considered, too radical to be openly discussed. It is possible that people with lower IQ feel a sense of inferiority. It is also possible that people with lower IQ are discouraged and actually do not strive to achieve at the limits of their abilities. These are indeed downsides, regrettable aspects of IQ testing, but the act of testing itself or inferences based on it cannot be condemned.

Husky · (This post was last modified: 06-11-2009, 07:52 PM by Husky.)

QUOTE(Hauma Hamiddha @ Jun 10 2009, 09:05 AM)Why not just bundle the IQ reports of various mAgadha-s and sailUSha-s into one post rather than posting them one at a time.[right][snapback]98567[/snapback][/right]Because I came upon each of them just before I posted each. But:
Sir, yes Sir. :clicks heels:

- Done.

G.Subramaniam · (This post was last modified: 06-14-2009, 02:55 AM by G.Subramaniam.)

Outlook

All the poor Bihari kids in the Super 30 got into IIT this year. What's the secre

Most are backward caste

-

Rigour Rules

Select the Best
Candidates are screened for IQ levels with three written tests, categorised as 'difficult', 'more difficult' and 'most difficult'.

Make them Slog
For one year, students study day and night; they can't miss a single tutorial class.

Stay Focussed
As far as possible, no television, no Internet, no movies.

Practice Makes Perfect
Students are subjected to repeated mock tests; by exam time, they've gone through hundreds of question papers from previous years.

Each year 6,000 young boys buy the application form for Rs 60 and submit it in the hope of making it to the Super 30. Candidates then take three separate admission tests to determine IQ, administered in ascending order of difficulty.Of the 500 short-listed initially, 30 eventually make it to the core group. These are the poorest with the most powerful minds.

--

So with screened IQ, and coaching, backward caste kids can win merit seats

--

The problem with general purpose quotas is there is no IQ screening and no behavior improvement

dhu · 06-25-2009, 12:10 PM

QUOTEThe entire reservation debate is a pseudo one. Let me present two
dominant varieties of responses: (a) abolish reservations, and instead
help the students and either financially or not (b) every forward
caste should need reservations.

I am not supporting a claim that the incompetent should be given
admissions, jobs, etc.

The pertinent question is: how incompetence came into being?

Let me run through some answers.

(1) innatist variety: that some human beings are incomptent by birth;
that some others are 'smart' by birth. This is empirically false: it
takes 10 years for a kid to master his/her first language. Assume you
are some 25 years old, whose first language is telugu. It takes more
than 10 years to become like an American whose first language is
English: Probably, your uncle has lived in US for 30 years, and yet
has accent. Is the latter a counter instance? Definitely not. In the
case of a kid, the unlearning part is miniscule as compared to a
telugu speaker who has to unlearn many things but couldn't unlearn the
things he learnt.

(2) anecdotal evidence: slogans "man, my classmate was damn smart; he
could solve problems that many others couldn't solve". It is
undeniable that there is creativity. Creativity is there because human
s are situated in some or another context. Human thinking is a
situated and limited thinking. Whenever one transgresses such a
limited thinking, we call such a phenomenon creativity. But when
everyone adapts to such a creativity, it ceases being creative any
longer. Then, wait for another break through. In some context, you
could be creative; yet in another, your buddy could be. Then, one may
remonstrate that the difference between the guy who was creative at
some point, one hand, and other guys who weren't at that point is
tantamount to the difference between our proverbial SC candidate
having gotten 35/100, and a reddy guy with 99/100. But this retort
will loose its biting force if we reflect upon further.

In fact, we can compare any thing (say, dog) with any other thing
(say, yahoomail). In the reservation case, the learning situations
have to be compared. However, different people learn the same thing in
various ways: some find easy one particular way; yet you find that
particular way difficult. For instance, solving arithemetical problems
by reducing the latter into the problems of geometry, I would find
exciting; my friend gets annoyed with such a approach: yet, we both
solve the same problem. This calls for plurality of teaching methods,
and for various cognitive strategies.

But the current education system--be it Indian or American--is
bankrupt in this aspect: we don't have multiplicity of teaching the
same thing. Most important, many people just get through high school,
colleges by rote learning. Then these guys are confronted with many
problems in the college: for instance, when a physics professor
approximates some differential equation; these guys have 'forgotten'
the background knowledge (in fact, they didn't even learn the
background knowledge--if you learn something, it is hard to forget--,
despite their having passed SSC, PUC). This tragedy compounds year by
year: from the 1st grade one's graduation from some university.

Next, the very exams are bogus. The question-answering (problem
solving) exams are not the best indicators of the ability of critical
thinking. Posing questions/problems is as important as solving them.
In fact, the scientific research progresses by posing 'right'
questions, not by answering.

Why this long mail? Don't think that SC guy who got 20/100 marks in
some exam is stupid. He is as competent as you are; we should rather
blame the educators, and *burn alive* educational psychologists.

That's why SC/BC/ST gurukula-s have failed. This also explains sending
your kids to Narayana Residential college is not helpful: think of the
bad stories of the relatives who sent their kids to such schools.

In other words, financial incentives (gurukulas for the poor,
narayana/ratnam/koras for those who can afford) don't solve the deep
problems: only when we have plurality of teachings are these
narayanas, gurukulas of immense help.

Lastly, imagnine, if you will, a world in which farming is financially
better off than working in a sun, a microsoft, a google. Everyone of
us would turn to mastering techniques in farming: then, we will see
farming training centeres in SR Nagar. Also, then we will be bitching
about reservations, etc, when some learn well, some others not.

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