Caste An European Phenomenon

[agnivayu]

We need to hammer these Euro trash about caste. These two timing rascals are completly unapologetic about their violent human rights violations yet start lecturing us through the UN. We need to make more people aware of the horrendous Christian caste based discrimination against Gypsies, the untouchables of Europe. Under this age old European Caste hierarchy, the Roma people have suffered greatly.

Also all the European names are caste names! Yet they blatantly attack Hindus on this, even though caste was a medieval cultural phenomena and has nothing to do with Hinduism (It's virtually disappeared in Urban and most parts of India for decades)

Schwarzenegger means Blacksmith caste in German, Cooper is a German/English caste of barrell makers. Smith, Farmer (like Steve Farmer!), potter, carpenter are caste names. The German name Zimmermann is equivalent to the English carpenter caste.

[ravinder]

^ fellow member you seem to be upset about the perceived badmouthing by some people and hitting out at those who seek to sow discord. It could be there fate to remain uneducated, howsoever literate they may have become.





Kindly read the following, and let go of the feeling of anger:



[Link : gita-society.com/section1/1_gita700verses.htm (all quotations are from this site except the quote from Sir Edwin Arnold.]



“But those who are deluded by the illusive power (Maya) of Nature become attached to the works done by the forces of Nature. The wise should not disturb the mind of the ignorant whose knowledge is imperfect. (See also 3.26) (3.29)"





It is true that caste-ism has been a bane for our society. But Caste has had as much to do with caste-ism as family has to do with women’s exploitation, or as democracy has to do with vote-bank politics or as Business has to do with unjust profiteering. Just the way it is rather stupid to hit out at the former in the above examples, it is rather stupid to bad mouth caste for the ills of caste-ism. Please note the deliberate hyphenation. All these isms, as of date are a strictly western phenomenon (my way or no way kind of thought process). And in this respect, west starts from the western borders of India. Our ancient sages had been quite categorical about caste. Caste is meant to be a division of labour wherein both nature and nurture are important in deciding what is the best way to align with the destiny that god has ordained for all of us.



What is required is to counter those who misuse the caste system in effect to create a class system or an apartheid social structure. Such people are entirely capable of twisting not just the caste system but I am sure much much more. And your getting angry is just as ill advised as that of the westerners who criticize without bothering to understand anything.





Just be still and don’t allow yourself to get angered by intentional provocations and concentrate on the job that you have choosen to do / assigned to you by god. As Sir Edwin Arnold so beautifully expressed in The Song Celestial:

“Thou sayst, perplexed, It hath been asked before

By singers and by sages, "What is act,

And what inaction? "I will teach thee this,

And, knowing, thou shalt learn which work doth save

Needs must one rightly meditate those three--

Doing,--not doing,--and undoing. Here

Thorny and dark the path is! He who sees

How action may be rest, rest action”.





As a crash course follows is what any one can find in Gitopnishad regarding caste=division of labour.

“I created the four divisions of human society based on aptitude and vocation. Though I am the author of this system of the division of labor, one should know that I do nothing directly and I am eternal. (See also 18.41) (4.13)

Works do not bind Me, because I have no desire for the fruits of work. The one who fully understands and practices this truth is also not bound by Karma. (4.14)

The ancient seekers of salvation also performed their duties with this understanding. Therefore, you should do your duty as the ancients did. (4.15)”





And the following is applicable to all, irrespective of ones caste. This is how every caste is supposed to work:

“One who does all work as an offering to God — abandoning selfish attachment to results — remains untouched by Karmic reaction or sin as a lotus leaf never gets wet by water. (5.10)

The Karma-yogis perform action without selfish attachment with their body, mind, intellect, and senses only for the purification of their mind and intellect. (5.11)

A Karma-yogi attains Supreme Bliss by abandoning attachment to the fruits of work; while others, who are attached to the fruits of work, become bound by selfish work. (5.12)”





About the desirability of division of labour we had been told the following:

“One attains perfection by worshipping the Supreme Being from whom all beings originate, and by whom all this universe is pervaded through performance of one’s natural duty for Him. (See also 9.27, 12.10) (18.46)

One’s inferior natural work is better than superior unnatural work even though well performed. One who does the work ordained by one’s inherent nature, without any selfish motive, incurs no sin (or Karmic reaction). (See also 3.35) (18.47)

One’s natural work, even though defective, should not be abandoned; because all undertakings are enveloped by defects as fire is covered by smoke, O Arjuna. (18.48)”





Discrimination on account of caste is not practiced under our Fifth Veda “The Constitution of India”. Casteism as matter of social practice is already on decline in the urban areas. With the gradual improvement in economy will come increasing urbanization and the much deserved death of Casteism. Caste on the other hand is as inevitable as life itself. Love it, hate it or ignore it, Division of labour based on Nature+Nurture has survived eons and will survive eons more.

[agnivayu]

Depends what we mean by Caste. Casta is a Spanish/Portuguese word and so refers mostly to the racially hierarchy scheme (Mullato, Zambo, Pardo etc) they have in Brazil and South/Central America.

Caste in India lumps three completely different things together. One is Varna (from where the West attacks us that Caste is sanctioned by Hinduism) but you addressed it very well in your post (I personally have done/am all 4 of them)



Second is our (Jathi) tribe or ethnicity which BTW is common from Europe, to middle east to all of Asia. Infact in most parts of the world people have arranged marriages within their tribe.



Third aspect is the bad part which is the serfdom. Ofcourse serfdom was common througout all pre-industrial societies. Infact Serfdom was found in Europe well into the 20th century until all the countries industrialized. Japan had serfs, Burakamin - Untouchable castes also (Interestingly 3 million Burakamin still exist in Japan where they still face discrimination).

Some of the worst parts of the world had slavery which is even worse than caste/serf style oppression. China's last slaves for example were not liberated till early 1960's. Saudi Arabia didn't ban slavery until 1964 I believe (unofficially slavery continues in the middle east).

So, the only real bad part about the so called "caste" system is the pre-industrial labor exploitation aspect which naturally disappears with Industrial growth. I would be shocked if it even exists at all in 30 years. Every year with urbanization and industrialization it's dropping phenomenally.

[ravinder]

[quote name='agnivayu' date='25 December 2009 - 09:36 PM' timestamp='1261756685' post='103130']

Depends what we mean by Caste.[/quote]



Thanks for the incredible amount of info put so succinctly. This is a marked post for my archive now.



My interest is in finding the continuity in both space and time as far as it is applicable to socio-economics life. This leaves me with rather little time for collection of data.



[quote name='agnivayu' date='25 December 2009 - 09:36 PM' timestamp='1261756685' post='103130'] So, the only real bad part about the so called "caste" system is the pre-industrial labor exploitation aspect which naturally disappears with Industrial growth. I would be shocked if it even exists at all in 30 years. Every year with urbanization and industrialization it's dropping phenomenally.

[/quote]



I try my best to avoid debates over usage of words, trying to focus instead on ideas and in this regard, IMHO, anything can be twisted and turned into anything else. Done enough of that and seen enough of it in my commercial vocation. Caste is just one of the infinite numbers of such cases that are do-able.



Chances of your anticipated caste restructuring (idea that I subscribe to as well), are indeed brighter than that of the reverse happening and the feedback will ensure that things only change even faster and with even more surety in future.

[HareKrishna]

The roma-gipsy have a nazi view of the world.

They put people in 3 categories.

1-their roma clan,the clan that deserve all

2-other roma clans,second class citizens

3- non-roma(gadja) ,people at the level of cattle.



Now the nazi scheme

1-german race ,the nation that deserve all

2-nazi allies(italians,japanese),second class citizens

3-the others(jews,blacks) ,people at the level of cattle

[shamu]

^^^ this is laughable.



Romas had suffered, and continue to suffer, after they landed in Europe. Where as Nazis had a different role in the world during their short lifespan. Who else is in your list? Jews?

[HareKrishna]

[quote name='shamu' date='15 March 2010 - 09:53 AM' timestamp='1268626532' post='105189']

^^^ this is laughable.



Romas had suffered, and continue to suffer, after they landed in Europe. Where as Nazis had a different role in the world during their short lifespan. Who else is in your list? Jews?

[/quote]

If romas suffer today its their own fault.

Jews are vastly superior to romas and to most european nations by morality,culture and science.

Jews are going to school,aren't violent,have a general positive contribution to society.

Even nomads like banjaras and domba are moraly superior to romas.

Romas suffer mostly because other romas.

Like an exemple just yesterday the police release roma slaves from a farm.They were forced by other romas to work 20 hours per day whiteout any payment.

Personaly i wouldn't bother if they restricted their violence to other romas,i suppose that's are their cultural values.

I suffered many beatings,especially as child, from the behalf of gipsy neighbors .Sadly,i has the unlucky chance to live next to these romas who work as pimps,drug dealing and robbery.

I dont want to play the victim role,im to arrogant for that.But just to show you who you actually defend.

Dont believe me? come and i will show you,you will know from your own experience.

[shamu]

You started off saying that Romas have a world view like Nazis. Now you blame Romas for their poor condition. To say that they had a world view like Nazis is pure nonsense. I would even say that that is a racist bias to accuse so since we all know what Nazis represented.



If you keep a group of people subjugated for a long time and give little bit of wealth to a select few of them, you will see all sort of problems in that group. It is easily visible among all colonized societies.

[HareKrishna]

[quote name='shamu' date='16 March 2010 - 09:24 AM' timestamp='1268711206' post='105213']

You started off saying that Romas have a world view like Nazis. Now you blame Romas for their poor condition. To say that they had a world view like Nazis is pure nonsense. I would even say that that is a racist bias to accuse so since we all know what Nazis represented.



If you keep a group of people subjugated for a long time and give little bit of wealth to a select few of them, you will see all sort of problems in that group. It is easily visible among all colonized societies.

[/quote]

I dont blame them for being poor ,Thats their choice.Being poor doesnt give them right to be violent and arrogant whit others.

There are many other nations here that are poor whit the millions yet they are not violent.Thats the difference.

Exploiting,robbing other human beings for your own sake ,thats nazi.

[shamu]

What you mentioned was an isolated behavior, and I bet you will see that among several other communities. Those actions don't reflect their social views either. Secondly, in your example the victims were their own people, where as nazis exploited others. Along with Jews, Romas also were Nazi victims. Since they happened to be poor, nobody bothered to highlight their cause.



Comparing the actions of victims to those of their former oppressors, is a reflection of plain hatred for them.

[HareKrishna]

[quote name='shamu' date='17 March 2010 - 08:31 AM' timestamp='1268794434' post='105231']

What you mentioned was an isolated behavior, and I bet you will see that among several other communities. Those actions don't reflect their social views either. Secondly, in your example the victims were their own people, where as nazis exploited others. Along with Jews, Romas also were Nazi victims. Since they happened to be poor, nobody bothered to highlight their cause.



Comparing the actions of victims to those of their former oppressors, is a reflection of plain hatred for them.

[/quote]

Personally, i see any mafia boss as a nazi in miniature.Same ideology at a lower level.

Secondly,i already mention that many roma clans see other roma clans as enemy or good to exploit.

Maybe you never was witness to a 100 members clan going to battle to another roma clan an killing each-other ,only to be stop by police intervention.

If there was only isolated behavior,i wouldn't bother to condemn but we see entire communities formed by hundred or thousand of people behaving like this, then is a problem.

Community whit similar behavior as romas?There are a few.Drug-addict gangs and drunken peasants,dog owners that let dangerous dogs on the street.

But hey ,a drug-addict gang is formed by aprox.5 members,while a roma gang is formed by 50-100 members.You simply cant beat alone so many people.Maybe if you are Bruce Lee and make a movie.Even the police avoid them.

I was robbed ,beaten by romas just for their fun.Gladly ,these most dangerous romas now emigrate to terrorize the West.I hope they will remain there.

Yes ,there are a few peaceful roma communities ,but even there they happy story is not complete.Those romas wash them selfs only once a year <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohmy.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':o' /> so imagine how offensive they smell.You not going to wish to stay in the same bus or room whit them.

Why this clans ,instead to aggress other people, not go to high-lighten their cause?Especially considering that the ex-president and ex-prime minister was both romas.

[shamu]

Maybe you never was witness to a 100 members clan going to battle to another roma clan an killing each-other ,only to be stop by police intervention.

When did one clan of nazis attacked another clan of nazis? Nazism is very different from what illiterate Romas do. Comparing Romas to Nazis is plain display of hatred for Romas.

[HareKrishna]

[quote name='shamu' date='18 March 2010 - 03:29 AM' timestamp='1268862717' post='105254']

When did one clan of nazis attacked another clan of nazis? Nazism is very different from what illiterate Romas do. Comparing Romas to Nazis is plain display of hatred for Romas.

[/quote]

and when they attack(like in occasions when they attack me),steal(they robbed me 3 times in my life) or kill non-roma how is it call?many romas think they are more slake (meaning the morons slaves work and i have their money) then the whites or africans and this i consider racist from their side.

[shamu]

You may call this criminal behavior among some Roma groups. But Nazism is not a criminal behaviour, it is an institutionalized racism against rest of humanity. They had ideological support, financial support, political support and military support. Romas have none of these. Criminal behavior among Romas and Nazism are totally different.

[HareKrishna]

http://translate.google.com/translate?js...l=ro&tl=en

Roman asks a shady criminal groups led Roma to stop using children to commit theft and warn the authorities to take this. Underworld, known as Brilliant, said, if this phenomenon will not diminish, Roma risk being expelled from the EU.

'In the past 20 years we have seen an intensification of feelings against Roma, not only in Romania but throughout Europe, "said Australian underworld during a TV show. ''I noticed also that among Roma crimes became more serious, to international organized crime, "he said.

Participated in the same issue and a girl aged 13 years, called Daniel, who said he can earn up to $ 500 in theft of pockets. . She testified that her mother come to steal money to buy food, some of them were sent to Romania.

Street Crime is a major problem for EU authorities. C. Most thieves are juveniles under the age of 14 years can not legally liable for their actions. . The wave of crimes committed by Roma children get scale in Western countries after Romania's EU admission.

[HareKrishna]

[agnivayu]

I like the architecture style above. Are those buildings in Romania?



I think the debate above proves my point that Roma are the untouchable caste in the Euro-Christian caste system. Partly could be there fault, but also the fault of their societies and upper-caste Europeans.



I have heard similar things said by White's about African-Americans in the U.S., and blame goes both ways there as well.



Same things are said by upper-caste Japanese against Burakamin, the untouchable caste of Japan.

[HareKrishna]

[quote name='agnivayu' date='04 April 2010 - 07:10 AM' timestamp='1270344779' post='105628']

I like the architecture style above. Are those buildings in Romania?



[/quote]

Thats confirm me for the N time that indians have no problem whit multiplication.Because most o fnordics(europeans,east-asians) prefer simplicity ,especially in art .They see tropical art(architecture,music,dance etc) as being too complicated ,too tiring,too decorated up to the point to being annoyed by it.

Maybe the simplicity goes also for religion a well.

For this reason the highly decorative baroque didn't last in Europe ,unlike in India were it last for millenia.

So many ask for dismantling this buildings for considerations that they ruin the landscape and belong to the roma.so double problem for them.

This buildings belong to the most rich group of roma-the calderash (making metal recipients especially for alcohol distillation,a succesful businesses in a land were alcohol is consumed near russian standards).They form 5% of roma population.



As style,this buildings start from the neo-romanian style (born at the beginning of the 20 century,mixing italian,french,turkish-arabic and romanian styles and influences)and develop by multiplication of the original double roof from previous style ,and by enlargement of the balconies and terraces .But how the style start and how it become to resemble the nepali architecture, nobody is really sure.Maybe from the movies ,maybe from atavistic tastes of romas.

What is for sure is that this style begin in the years 90'

[HareKrishna]

http://images.google.ro/imgres?imgurl=ht...s%3Disch:1



http://media.photobucket.com/image/palat...orman_.jpg

http://images.google.ro/imgres?imgurl=ht...s%3Disch:1

http://images.google.ro/imgres?imgurl=ht...s%3Disch:1

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3160/2832...45.jpg?v=0

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Wlhe9AWsSzs/ST...G_2653.JPG

http://ocasapezi.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/palat.jpeg

http://images.google.ro/imgres?imgurl=ht...s%3Disch:1

[HareKrishna]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Wlhe9AWsSzs/ST...G_2653.JPG

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Wlhe9AWsSzs/ST...G_2672.JPG

http://storage0.dms.mpinteractiv.ro/medi...taj-01.jpg

http://rotundu.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/palat1.jpg

http://rotundu.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/palat2.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2484/3682...d683d4.jpg