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Unmasking AIT
<!--QuoteBegin-HareKrishna+Jun 15 2009, 11:50 PM-->QUOTE(HareKrishna @ Jun 15 2009, 11:50 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
2500 years ago ,the population of Sri Lanka was about 1 milion.About 5000 people from north India came and they change the language ( i refer to sinhala).This north-indians formed 0,5% of population.The population is largely pre-IE but the language is mainly IE.The migration is mentioned in legends and documents.
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Please remove this.
There is mention of migration like this in legends and documents.
There is no evidence that "About 5000 people from north India came and they change the language ( i refer to sinhala)."

We need serious discussion here.
  Reply
<!--QuoteBegin-acharya+Jul 26 2009, 02:19 AM-->QUOTE(acharya @ Jul 26 2009, 02:19 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-HareKrishna+Jun 15 2009, 11:50 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HareKrishna @ Jun 15 2009, 11:50 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
2500 years ago ,the population of Sri Lanka was about 1 milion.About 5000 people from north India came and they change the language ( i refer to sinhala).This north-indians formed 0,5% of population.The population is largely pre-IE but the language is mainly IE.The migration is mentioned in legends and documents.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Please remove this.
There is mention of migration like this in legends and documents.
There is no evidence that "About 5000 people from north India came and they change the language ( i refer to sinhala)."

We need serious discussion here.
[right][snapback]99963[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just pointed out the story of king Vijaya from Mahavamsa and the legend in wich he came in Lanka whit 700 followers.
  Reply
<!--QuoteBegin-HareKrishna+Jul 26 2009, 04:48 AM-->QUOTE(HareKrishna @ Jul 26 2009, 04:48 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
Just pointed out the story of king Vijaya from Mahavamsa and the legend in wich he came in Lanka whit 700 followers.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but has NO connection to the Aryan Invasion theory or the linguistic evidence or the philology.
  Reply
http://www.burningcross.net/crusades/aryan...california.html

<b>ARYAN INVASION OF CALIFORNIA: GLOBAL BACKGROUND</b>
N.S. Rajaram

NS Rajaram
Fall of the Third Reich did not put an end to academic race theories that formed the core of its ideology. In various guises, their legacy continues in Western academia as well as in the politics of countries formerly under European rule. While avoiding overtly racial terms, scholars in disciplines like Indo-European Studies continue to uphold scientifically discredited and historically disgraced theories built around the Aryan myth. Some academics have resorted to media campaigns and political lobbying to save their theories and the discipline from natural extinction— a tactic that came to the fore when California education authorities attempted to remove these theories from their school curriculum. The legacy of racism persists in sectarian politics in South India, and most insidiously in Africa where it gave rise to the horrific Hutu-Tutsi clashes in one of the worst genocides in modern history. A singular feature of this neo-racist scholarship is the replacement of anti-Semitism by anti-Hinduism.

Mutated racism

In a remarkable article, “Aryan Mythology As Science And Ideology” (Journal of the American Academy of Religion1999; 67: 327-354) the Swedish scholar Stefan Arvidsson raises the question: “Today it is disputed whether or not the downfall of the Third Reich brought about a sobering among scholars working with 'Aryan' religions.” We may rephrase the question: “Did the end of the Nazi regime put an end to race based theories in academia?” An examination of several humanities departments in the West suggests otherwise: following the end of Nazism, academic racism may have undergone a mutation but did not entirely disappear. Ideas central to the Aryan myth resurfaced in various guises under labels like Indology and Indo-European Studies. This is clear from recent political, social and academic episodes in places as far apart as Harvard University and the California State Board of Education.

Two decades after the end of the Nazi regime, racism underwent another mutation as a result of the American Civil Rights Movement led by Dr. Martin Luther King. Thanks to the Civil Rights Movement, Americans were rightly made to feel guilty about their racist past and the indefensible treatment of African Americans. U.S. academia also changed accordingly and any discourse based on racial stereotyping became taboo. Soon this taboo came to be extended to Native Americans, Eskimos and other ethnic groups.

In this climate of seeming liberal enlightenment, one race theory continued to flourish as if nothing had changed. Theories based on the Aryan myth that formed the core of Nazi ideology continued in various guises, as previously noted, in Indology and Indo-European Studies. Though given a linguistic and sometimes a cultural veneer, these racially sourced ideas continue to enjoy academic respectability in such prestigious centers as Harvard and Chicago. Being a European transplant, its historical trajectory was different from the one followed by American racism. Further, unlike the Civil Rights Movement, which had mass support, academic racism remained largely confined to academia. This allowed it to escape public scrutiny for several decades until it clashed with the growing Hindu presence in the United States. Indians, Hindus in particular saw Western Indology and Indo-European Studies as a perversion of their history and religion and a thinly disguised attempt to prejudice the American public, especially the youth, against India and Hinduism to serve their academic interests.1

The fact that Americans of Indian origin are among the most educated group ensured that their objections could not brushed away by “haughty dismissals” as the late historian of science Abraham Seidenberg put it. Nonetheless, scholars tried to use academic prestige as a bludgeon in forestalling debate, by denouncing their adversaries as ignorant chauvinists and bigots unworthy of debate. But increasingly, hard evidence from archaeology, natural history and genetics made it impossible to ignore the objections of their opponents, many of whom (like this author) were scientists. By the turn of the millennium, there was an uneasy stalemate, with science chipping away at the edifice of the Aryan theories with its advocates tenaciously clinging to them and postponing the inevitable.<b> But in November 2005, there came a dramatic denouement, in, of all places, California schools. Academics suddenly found it necessary to leave their ivory towers and fight it out in the open, in full media glare— and under court scrutiny.</b> This is what we may look at next.

Aryans invade California

To summarize the California invasion by ‘Aryan’ academics: Aryans, a mythical race of people which science and the defeat of Nazi Germany had consigned to the fringes of academia and politics found a temporary refuge in the history texts to be used in California schools. Led by the Harvard based linguist Michael Witzel, a motley group of mostly European scholars successfully lobbied the California State Board of Education (CSBE) to save the theory of an 'Aryan' invasion of India from being removed from schoolbooks. It was to prove a Pyrrhic victory and a public embarrassment; California education authorities were soon forced to retract Witzel’s ‘expert’ suggestions. They also had to face lawsuits from which they came out badly bruised.

This was the aftermath of an acrimonious editing process in which Witzel, with possible support from the California Education Secretary Alan Bersin, put pressure on California officials to have this scientifically discredited theory included in textbooks. This curious affair raises doubts about the role played by Secretary Bersin who serves also on the board of the Harvard Corporation which employs Witzel. Willingly or unwittingly, Bersin came to be seen as the fulcrum of support for Witzel and his colleagues in their dubious campaign that went on to embarrass both Harvard and the California Department of Education.

While the media covered the story as a case of newfound assertiveness on the part of the Hindus, Witzel and his colleagues claimed they were motivated solely by objectivity and scholarly integrity. According to them it was a case of faith against scholarship. The cloud of controversy though tended to obscure the real story— of a desperate campaign by Witzel and his colleagues to save the Aryan myth, which happens to be central to the academic discipline known as Indo-European Studies. Indo-European is a politically correct euphemism for Aryan. (Another is Caucasian.)

It all began innocently enough, when Grade VI textbooks used in California schools came up for revision in 2005. Some Hindu, Islamic and Jewish groups objected to the way their religions were depicted in some of the textbooks. Hindus objected also to the history portion for including the scientifically discredited, nineteenth century theory of the Aryan invasion of India. California school authorities asked the Hindu groups along with others to suggest suitable changes.

After some discussions, mostly with regard to the format, the California Department of Education (CDE) released a memorandum detailing the changes submitted to the State Board of Education (CSBE) on November 8, 2005. It was at this point that Michael Witzel intervened uninvited. On the very next day, November 9, CSBE President Ruth Green read out a petition submitted by Witzel and co-signed by 46 other scholars claiming to be experts on India, objecting to the edits suggested by the Hindu groups charging they were unscholarly and politically motivated. Changes submitted by Christian, Muslim and Jewish groups were passed without discussion, but Green withheld those submitted by the Hindus. She went a step further and appointed Witzel to a super-committee, to review the changes relating to Hinduism and India. All its members had actively colluded with Witzel in his propaganda and lobbying campaign.

It was a mystery how Witzel, within a day, could get so many signatures from all over the world. Most petitioners were from Europe with nothing at stake in what California schools teach their children. A few (non-Europeans) later retracted. This suggests that Witzel’s move was pre-planned, helped by insiders and not a 24-hour wonder. It was soon apparent that the signatories, including Witzel himself, had not read the changes they were objecting to. He was coy about it when questioned at a public meeting in Harvard, claiming that the subject was sub judice. (This was because of law suits filed against the CSBE’s ‘flawed and illegal’ review procedure.)

The next meeting in January 2006 was held in secret, from which Hindu groups were excluded. Witzel took advantage of the secrecy to reverse many of the changes. While some of it related to Hinduism, it became clear that his real concern was saving the Aryan invasion theory from being axed. Witzel trumpeted the outcome as a victory, but the celebration proved to be premature. The unusual procedure by which it was done and Witzel’s own unscholarly language and rhetoric landed the California Department of Education in several law suits. A judge hearing the case slammed the CSBE for following ‘underground procedures’ using ‘hostile academics’. Witzel too paid a heavy price, being increasingly seen as less a scholar than a propagandist and political lobbyist. His credibility as scholar stood shattered.

Given Education Secretary Bersin’s position at Harvard, Witzel’s immediate appointment to the super-committee with virtual veto power over the contents comes as no surprise. The real question is what Witzel and Bersin hoped to gain by having the disgraced Aryan theories taught in California schools. To see this one needs to recognize the precarious state of the discipline called Indo-European Studies. It is a nineteenth century European creation that has been losing ground to science. Witzel and his European colleagues are among its last holdouts. Both students and funds have been declining in the department where Witzel teaches. As a member of the Board of Overseers of the Harvard Corporation Bersin has responsibility for fund raising.

Ever since Witzel moved to Harvard from Europe (he is German by birth), its Department of Sanskrit and India Studies has been in a state of turmoil. He was forced to step down as department chairman in 1995, following student complaints about his conduct. Enrica Garzilli, whom Witzel had brought in as a faculty member was fired by Harvard as unqualified. She sued the university. Witzel himself threatened to sue a student for asking some questions. Now Hindu parents and groups have sued the State of California for violating their children’s civil rights. Curiously for an academic, legal troubles seem to dog Witzel wherever he goes.

We may never know who initiated Witzel’s California campaign— whether Alan Bersin gave Witzel a chance to redeem himself following his disastrous performance at Harvard, or if Witzel saw an opening to get students and funding with Bersin at the helm of the Department of Education in California. Email traffic surrounding IER (Indo-Eurasian Research), an Internet group co-founded by Witzel, suggests that the idea came from some of its members, possibly one Steve Farmer, Witzel’s closest associate following Enrica Garzilli’s expulsion from Harvard. Farmer lives in California from where he has been reporting on developments in the state.

Problems at Harvard are part of a wider problem in Western academia in the field of Indo-European Studies. Several ‘Indology’ departments—as they are sometimes called—are shutting down across Europe. One of the oldest and most prestigious, at Cambridge University in England, has just closed down. This was followed by the closure of the equally prestigious Berlin Institute of Indology founded way back in 1821. Positions like the one Witzel holds (Wales Professor of Sanskrit) were created during the colonial era to serve as interpreters of India. They have lost their relevance and are disappearing from academia. This is the real story, not teaching Hinduism to California children.

Witzel’s California misadventure appears to have been an attempt to have his version of Indian history and civilization introduced into the school curriculum in the hope that some of them may later be drawn into his department when they graduate. Otherwise, it is hard to see why a senior, tenured professor at Harvard should go to all this trouble, lobbying California school officials to have its Grade VI curriculum changed to reflect his views.

To follow this it is necessary to go beyond personalities and understand the importance of the Aryan myth to Indo-European Studies. The Aryan myth is a European creation. It has nothing to do with Hinduism. The campaign against Hinduism was a red herring to divert attention from the real agenda, which was and remains saving the Aryan myth. Collapse of the Aryan myth means the collapse of Indo-European studies. This is what Witzel and his colleagues are trying to avert. For them it is an existential struggle.

Americans for the most part are unaware of the enormous influence of the Aryan myth on European history and imagination. As previously observed, while the defeat of Nazi Germany put an end to its political influence, it has survived in various guises in Western academia under the umbrella of Indo-European Studies. This was the point raised by scholars like Stefan Arvidsson cited earlier. Central to Indo-European Studies is the belief—it is no more than a belief—that Indian civilization was created by an invading race of ‘Aryans’ from an original homeland somewhere in Eurasia or Europe. This is the Aryan invasion theory dear to Witzel and his European colleagues. According to this theory there was no civilization in India before the Aryan invaders brought it— a view increasingly in conflict with hard evidence from archaeology and natural history.

The politics of Aryanism

Given the Aryans’ importance to their worldview, it is extraordinary that after two hundred years of voluminous outpourings, these scholars are unable to identify them. Originally they were claimed to be a race related to Europeans but science has discredited it. After the defeat of Nazi Germany, scholars avoid overtly racial arguments but the basic idea of an invasion by Europeans bringing civilization to India is retained even if they acknowledge that ancient Indian records know nothing of any such invasion. All we have are dogmatic assertions of their central belief. According to the late Murray Emeneau, a leading figure in Indo-European linguistics: 2

At some time in the second millennium B.C., probably comparatively early in the millennium, a band or bands of speakers of an Indo-European language, later to be called Sanskrit, entered India over the northwest passes. This is our linguistic doctrine which has been held now for more than a century and a half. There seems to be no reason to distrust the arguments for it, in spite of the traditional Hindu ignorance of any such invasion. (Emphasis added.)

This is typical of the field, with arguments closer to theology than to science. Aryans are needed because there can be no Aryan invasion without the Aryans and also no Indo-European Studies. It is a case of the tail wagging the dog.

Scientists had long ago dismissed the idea of the Aryan race. As far back as 1939, Sir Julian Huxley, one of the great biologists of the twentieth century wrote: 3

In England and America the phrase ‘Aryan race’ has quite ceased to be used by writers with scientific knowledge, though it appears occasionally in political and propagandist literature…. In Germany, the idea of the ‘Aryan race’ received no more scientific support than in England. Nevertheless, it found able and very persistent literary advocates who made it appear very flattering to local vanity. It therefore steadily spread, fostered by special conditions. (Emphasis added.)

These ‘special conditions’ were the rise of Nazism in Germany and British imperial interests in India. Its perversion in Germany leading eventually to the Nazi horrors is well known. The fact that the British turned it into a political tool to make their rule acceptable to Indians is not generally known. A recent BBC report acknowledged as much (October 6, 2005): 4

It [Aryan invasion theory] gave a historical precedent to justify the role and status of the British Raj, who could argue that they were transforming India for the better in the same way that the Aryans had done thousands of years earlier.

That is to say, the British presented themselves as ‘new and improved Aryans’ that were in India only to complete the work left undone by their ancestors in the hoary past. This is how the British Prime Minister Stanley Baldwin put it in the House of Commons in 1929: 5

Now, after ages, …the two branches of the great Aryan ancestry have again been brought together by Providence… By establishing British rule in India, God said to the British, “I have brought you and the Indians together after a long separation, …it is your duty to raise them to their own level as quickly as possible …brothers as you are…”
<b>
All this makes abundantly clear that theories based on the Aryan myth are modern European creations that have little to do with ancient India.</b> The word Arya appears for the first time in the Rig Veda, India’s oldest text. Its meaning is obscure but seems to refer to members of a settled agricultural community. It later became an honorific and a form of address, something like ‘Gentleman’ in English or ‘Monsieur’ in French. Also, it was nowhere as important in India as it came to be in Europe. In the whole the Rig Veda, in all of its ten books, the word Arya appears only about forty times. In contrast, Hitler’s Mein Kampf uses the term Arya and Aryan many times more. Hitler did not invent it. The idea of Aryans as a superior race was already in the air— in Europe, not India. 6

Indo-Europeans: elusive or non-existent?

To understand Witzel’s California campaign we need to place these Aryan theories in their historical context— as part of some European thinkers’ striving to give themselves an identity based on their history and folklore. In his recent book Aryan Idols: Indo-European Mythology as Ideology and Science (2006, University of Chicago) Swedish scholar Stefan Arvidsson tells us:

For over two hundred years, a series of historians, linguists, folklorists, and archaeologists have tried to re-create a lost culture. Using ancient texts, medieval records, philological observations, and archaeological remains they have described a world, a religion, and a people older than the Sumerians, with whom all history is said to have begun.

These are the mythical Aryans, now being called Indo-Europeans. After two hundred years of intensive search, they remain elusive, while science has shown them to be non-existent. But Indo-European scholars have not given up on them. Just as they created an Aryan invasion without Aryans they have created Indo-European Studies based on the non-existent Indo-Europeans. As Arvidsson observes:

No objects can definitely be tied to them, nor do we know any ‘Indo-European’ by name. In spite of that, scholars have stubbornly tried to reach back to the ancient ‘Indo-Europeans,’ with the help of bold historical, linguistic, and archaeological reconstructions, in the hopes of finding the foundation of their own culture and religion there.

The only literature we have that goes back to such antiquity is Indian literature. But Europeans of the colonial era could not conceive of an Indian source for their culture. India was taken out of Indo-European Studies, and made the recipient of European thought, culture and even language via the Aryan invasion. In Arvidsson’s words: “The theory about India as the original home of the Indo-Europeans, and the Indians as a kind of model Aryans, lost supporters during the nineteenth century, and other homelands and other model Aryans took their place instead.” (Emphasis added.)

The Aryans (or Indo-Europeans) and their homeland were gradually moved westward until they were made to settle in Eurasia and even Germany. In the hands of German scholars, Aryans and their language became “Indo-Germanische.” It is this worldview, and its academic incarnation calling itself Indo-European Studies that Witzel and his colleagues are fighting to save from extinction.

To summarize, the goal of Indo-European studies is not so much to understand India as it is to “show that there existed a rich ‘German’ mythology that could successfully compete with classical Judeo-Christian traditions.” It is hardly surprising that anti-Semitism was tied up with it. Now anti-Hinduism has now taken its place. This anti-Hinduism too is more cultural than religious, like anti-Semitism in pre-War Europe. Its goal is to detach their mythical Indo-European ancestors from India, just as pre-war Aryan theories sought to erase the Judaic heritage of Christian Europe. This lies at the root of the ‘ideological abuse’ (in Arvidsson’s words) that Indo-European Studies has been guilty of:

There is something in the nature of research about Indo-Europeans that makes it especially prone to ideological abuse— perhaps something related to the fact that for the past two centuries, the majority of scholars who have done research on the Indo-Europeans have considered themselves descendants of this mythical race.

This ‘ideological abuse’ reached its climax in the Nazi regime. The recent California campaign must also be seen in the same light: ideological abuse in the name of scholarship to support a worldview combined with a concern for survival.

For a brief, transient period, advocates of the Aryan myth succeeded in saving their theory from being axed, but in the process they have undermined the credibility of the textbooks and public confidence in the California education system. The wide publicity that their campaign received and the law suits that followed have dealt a severe blow to teacher morale. The real victim in this farcical tragedy is not Hinduism, which will survive the assault, but the children of California who have been used as pawns in the struggle for survival of a discredited academic discipline and its priesthood.

An African tragedy: Tutsi invasion theory

While race theories have led to stereotyping and academic and ideological abuse, they are also guilty of horrendous crimes. The Nazi Holocaust is justly infamous, but not many are aware of their contribution to the more recent Hutu-Tutsi conflicts in Africa. What Indologists could not do in India with their Aryan theories, ethnologists succeeded in doing in Africa with their race-based Tutsi invasion theory— trigger genocide. Here is the story in brief.

When we look at the map of middle Africa, we see two little countries named Rwanda and Burundi, bordering on Zaire (or the Democratic Republic of Congo). Few Indians know the recent history of these unfortunate countries or the cause of the recent catastrophes that engulfed them. As reported in the Western media, these countries are inhabited by two supposedly different ethnic groups, the so-called Hutus and Tutsis. The ethnic composition of these two countries is as follows.

Rwanda: Hutu 84%, Tutsi 15%, Twa (Pygmies) 1%

Burundi: Hutu 85%, Tutsi 14%, Twa 1%

In other words, their compositions hardly differ at all. But according to Western anthropologists, mainly colonial bureaucrats and missionaries, the Tutsi are supposed to be a Hamitic people, a race that was often intermixed with the whiter races of the North, notably from Ethiopia and Egypt, which in their turn were intermixed with some West Asiatic people, mainly the Hittites, by repeated invasions from the North. These people, the Tutsis, are supposed to have arrived from the North and not native to Rwanda. The analogy to the invading Aryans is immediate and striking, but doesn’t stop here.

The majority of Hutus are said to be Bantu, of original African race, which spilled out from the middle of the West African coast of Nigeria, Cameroon, Ghana, Togo, Benin, Cote d’Ivorie (Ivory Coast) and the inland countries of Burkina Faso and its neighbors.

In this scenario, which is contradicted by genetic analysis, the Tutsis (like the Aryans) are foreign invaders or migrants in the Rwanda-Burundi region. The Hutus, like the Indian Dravidians, are said to be much older people, but not the original inhabitants. The original inhabitants are said to be the Pygmies (or Twa), who constitute barely 1 percent of the people. The interesting part of the theory is the role assigned to the Tutsi minority. They are made into a superior race of invaders, just like the Aryans, and supposedly constitute the aristocratic elite and the oppressors of the Hutu majority.

According to this theory, the minority Tutsi have subjugated the indigenous, but not too indigenous (compared to the Pygmies) Hutus for centuries and forced them into the inferior position of agriculture. Now the key notion: Hutus and Tutsis are really two completely separate races, with the ‘black’ Hutus forming the oppressed majority, and their relatively fair invaders, the Tutsi, forming the oppressors.

This in essence is the Tutsi invasion theory, the African version of the Aryan invasion theory. The similarities are startling, even to the extent of the Dravidians in India being preceded by earlier inhabitants, the aborigines (the so-called adi-vasis), who have their African counterpart in the Pygmies. So we have the African Pygmy-Hutu-Tutsi sequence corresponding to the Indian aborigines-Dravidian-Aryan scheme.

It is a curious experience to look at the political evolution of this grotesque theory and its monstrous fallout. Until the coming of the Europeans, the Tutsis and the Hutus never saw themselves as different. Nor were they engaged in any racial wars. With the European scramble for Africa, Rwanda-Burundi became part of the short-lived German East Africa. After Germany’s defeat in the First World War, it became part of the Belgian colonies in Africa. This notion of the Tutsi-Hutu racial difference began to be drilled into the natives by colonial administrators, some academics (not unlike present day Indologists) and missionaries known as the Pere Blancs (White Fathers). (There are no Pere Noirs or Black Fathers.) They invented the Tutsi invasion theory and labeled the Hutus as the victims of Tutsi invasion and oppression.

It is worth noting that this period, between the two world wars, was the heyday of race theories in Europe. It seems the notion of superiority due to difference in skin color—imagined in this case—is indelibly ingrained in the European psyche. Its politics has collapsed, not due to any dawn of enlightenment on its proponents but the defeat of Nazi Germany. It has continued however in Western academia as Indo-European Studies and in other guises.

As with the Aryan theories and their various offshoots, this Tutsi-Hutu division has no factual basis. They speak the same language, have a long history of intermarriage and have many cultural characteristics in common. Differences are regional rather than racial, which they were not aware of until the Europeans made it part of their politics and propaganda.

The division if any was occupational. Agriculturists were called Hutu while the cattle owning elite were referred to as Tutsi. The Tutsi, like the Indian Aryans, were supposed to be tall, thin and fair, while the Hutu were described as short, black and squat— just as the Indian Dravidians are said to be. Since the Tutsi today don’t fit this description, scholars claimed that their invading ancestors did. They offered no proof but, being based on no evidence, their claim cannot be disproved either. In fact, it is impossible today to tell the two people apart. They are separate because government records carried over from colonial days say so.

This fictional racial divide was created and made official by colonial bureaucrats during Belgian rule. The Belgian Government forced everyone to carry an identity card showing tribal ethnicity as Hutu or Tutsi. This was used in administration, in providing lands, positions, and otherwise playing power politics based on race. This divisive politics combined with the racial hatred sowed by the Tutsi invasion theory turned Rwanda-Burundi into a powder keg ready to explode.

The explosion came following independence form colonial rule. Repeated violence after independence fueled this hatred driven by this supposed ethnic difference and the concocted history of the Tutsi invasion and oppression. Some 2.5 million people were massacred in this fratricidal horror of wars and genocides. Unscrupulous African leaders, like the self-styled Dravidian politicians of India, exploited this divisive colonial legacy to gain power at the cost of the people. Hutu leaders described the Tutsis as cockroaches, telecasting their tirades on the radio during the 1994 genocide of the Tutsis. This led ordinary Hutus to massacre the Tutsis en masse in a bid to annihilate them completely.

So a peaceful, placid nation with a common populace, sharing a common language, culture and history was destroyed by colonialist, racist concoction called the Tutsi invasion theory. It was entirely the handiwork of colonial bureaucrats, missionaries and pseudo-scholars building careers on the discredited notion of race.

It is of course no coincidence that ideas that led to the Holocaust in Europe should have led to genocide in Africa. The disgrace is that they continue to exist in Western academia in various guises, ready to come out of the closet at an opportune moment. This is what was seen during the recent California school curriculum revision.

History lesson: transplanting the poison tree

Why should we learn all this? Because the Tutsi invasion theory has ominous parallels to the Aryan invasion theory and the Aryan myth, which scholars are trying desperately to save using linguistics or, Indo-European Studies or some similar fig-leaf. Sectarian tension and violence, thankfully not on the same horrific scale, was incited between North- and South Indians by self-styled Dravidian parties like the DMK, AIDMK and their many offshoots and incarnations. These are the poisonous legacy of the colonial-missionary racist offspring.

Why did India not go the way of Rwanda-Burundi? Not for lack of trying but because the cultural foundation of Hinduism proved too strong. It defeated the designs of politicians and propagandists masquerading as scholars. It is no coincidence that Rwanda and Burundi had been converted to Christianity, preparing the ground for sectarian conflict. Several church figures, including priests and nuns have been found guilty of complicity in the Tutsi massacres. As in India, Christianity was a colonial tool and missionaries little more than imperial agents.<b>

Their failure in Hindu India is also what is behind the visceral anti-Hinduism of Witzel and his colleagues. It came to the fore during the recent California school controversy. This is enhanced by the fact that Hindu scholars have been at the forefront of exposing their designs and debunking their scholarly claims.</b> An Internet group (IER or Indo-Eurasian Research) co-founded by Witzel has been doing little more than spewing venom at Hindus and their practices, in language and style that bear comparison with Nazi era publications like Julius Streicher's Der Strummer.

They may have been defeated this time, but there is no room for complacency. The divisive politicians of India and their friends and colleagues in academia can come together to defend the Aryan-Dravidian divide. California last year was an example of such an unholy nexus. 7 Had Witzel and his colleagues succeeded in planting their poison tree in California schools, it would have become fertile ground for demagogues to turn the ethnically diverse California into a powder keg of animosities.

This brand of pseudo-scholarship cannot survive once their Aryan theories end up in the dustbin where they belong. Recognizing this, their advocates no longer engage in debate but resort to name calling. Any opposition to the Aryan theories is denounced as emotional, chauvinistic, and the handiwork of Hindu nationalists and fundamentalists. Like the artificial Aryan-Dravidian divide, the Tutsi-Hutu divide is also denied by respectable scholarship, including Western scholarship. Are we to denounce these—and a million Tutsi victims of the genocide—as the handiwork of these nationalistic chauvinistic Tutsis who deserved their fate?

The Aryan myth—and its advocates—have both been exposed, but it would be a serious error to assume that it has been put to rest. Bad ideas have a way of resurfacing especially when self interest is at stake. Writing about the persistence of superstitions like belief in witches and witchcraft in Europe, Charles Mackay, in his famous book Extraordinary Popular Delusions and Madness of Crowds observed (1841):

So deeply rooted are some errors that ages cannot remove them. The poisonous tree that once overshadowed the land might be cut down by the sturdy efforts of sages and philosophers; the sun may shine clearly upon spots where venomous things once nestled in security and shade; but still the entangled roots are stretched beneath the surface, and may be found by those who dig. Another King like James I [a self professed expert on demonology] might make them vegetate again; and more mischievous still, another Pope like Innocent VIII [who initiated the Inquisition against witches] might raise the decaying roots to strength and verdure.

One may add that scholars and academics are no more immune to the lure of obscurantism than medieval popes and kings, especially when their survival is at stake. With their base crumbling in Europe, these purveyors of hate are looking for fresh soil in places like California to plant their poison-bearing trees.

Acknowledgement: I am grateful to Sri Pankaj Saksena for valuable information relating to the Tutsi invasion theory and its legacy of horrors.

NOTES
Curiously the very success of the Civil Rights Movement in the United States has helped these European race theories by shielding them from scrutiny. In the U.S., Aryan theories are associated with fringe groups like the Ku Klux Klan, not prestigious institutions like Harvard. It must be added that this is not official Harvard policy but a negative fallout of academic freedom, with a tenured faculty member misusing his position. Still one hopes that Harvard authorities can reign in someone who is increasingly a blot on its liberal image.
Quoted in Sarasvati River and the Vedic Civilization: History, science and politics by N.S. Rajaram (2006), New Delhi: Aditya Prakashan, page 31. The original source (cited in the book) is not easy to access.
Op. cit. p. 127. Some recent claims of a genetic basis for the Aryan invasion are easily refuted. See Sarasvati River… (Op. cit.) for a discussion of the current state of Aryan theories.
Op. cit. p. 128.
Ibid.<b>
It is important to note that Hitler and the Nazis appropriated their ideas and symbols from European mythology, not India. Hitler’s Aryans worshipped Apollo and Odin, not Vedic deities like Indra and Varuna. His Swastika was also European (‘Hakenkreuz’ or hooked cross) not Indian. It was seen in Germany for the first time when General von Luttwitz’s notorious Erhardt Brigade marched into Berlin from Lithuania in support of the abortive Kapp Putsch of 1920. The Erhardt Brigade was one of several freebooting private armies during the years following Germany’s defeat in World War I. They had the covert support of the Wehrmacht (Army headquarters).
Several fringe groups from the Communists to those claiming to represent ‘Christian Dalits’ (an oxymoron) ranged behind Witzel in his campaign. The court dismissed them and their claims.</b>

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x-posted...

<!--QuoteBegin-"Sanjay M"+-->QUOTE("Sanjay M")<!--QuoteEBegin-->Medical research results show that Indians are descended from 2 main groups of people - the North Indians who are related to Eurasians, and the South Indians who have no relation to any specific genetic group outside of India:

http://www.physorg.com/news172931737.html

<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->To shed light on genetic variability across the Indian subcontinent, the research team analyzed more than 500,000 genetic markers across the genomes of 132 individuals from 25 diverse groups, representing 13 states, all six language families, traditionally "upper" and "lower" castes, and tribal groups.

These genomic analyses revealed two ancestral populations. "<b>Different Indian groups have inherited forty to eighty percent of their ancestry from a population that we call the Ancestral North Indians who are related to western Eurasians, and the rest from the Ancestral South Indians, who are not related to any group outside India,</b>" said co-author David Reich, an associate professor of genetics at Harvard Medical School and an associate member of the Broad Institute of Harvard and MIT. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


This is the old AIT in new form. The M17 gene was evolved in India not the other way round.
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Lot of these genetic inheritance is around 50000 years ago or more.

So there is no connection to this fantasy called as Aryan or other false race.
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Ramana, while I normally abstain from posting on this thread this paper being referred to is a new one. It gives good support for AIT, which as I have repeatedly mentioned is line with biological reality for those who care to look into the real data -- both linguistic and genetic more carefully. Of course several details still remain mysterious but over all the writing is on the wall.
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X-posted...
<!--QuoteBegin-"brihaspati"+-->QUOTE("brihaspati")<!--QuoteEBegin-->This is quite a wrong representation. The oldest ancestry of all non-Africans and non-Australian- Aborigines are traced to South India. This gave rise to the so-called NorthIndian and Caucasoid haplotypes. Which produced European ancestry. The R1 Y-haplotype is indeed found in the deep South with clear indications of origin in India and not in Europe.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


H^2, Can you elaborate elsewhere if you please?
  Reply
Can everybody post it in the DNA evidence thread for AIT
  Reply
Remember when it was said that the Ukraine ice age refuge extended actually from Ukraine to Tadjikistan .
The researcher of blue eye origin have the same hunch.
Blue eye colour most likely originated from the near east area or northwest part of the Black Sea region, where the great agriculture migration to the northern part of Europe took place in the Neolithic periods about six–10,000 years ago.

“That is my best guess,” he said. “It could be the northern part of Afghanistan.”


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science...c-mutation.html


So it wasn't Scandinavia the place of origin of the blue eyes (how could be whit an uninhabited sheath of ice?).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...hist_Monks.jpeg
  Reply
The sheer depths of Indian Civilisation

Sandhya Jain



Quote:Barely seven years after Prof. B B Lal penned The Sarasvati Flows On: The Continuity of Indian Culture (2002), the defiantly-in-denial UPA has been forced to admit the existence of the Vedic Sarasvati. In response to a parliamentary question, the government revealed that a study by scientists of ISRO, Jodhpur, and the Rajasthan Government’s Ground Water Department has found irrefutable evidence of palaeo-channels and archaeological sites of pre-Harappan, Harappan and post-Harappan ages, indicating the existence of a mighty river matching descriptions of the Saraswati in Vedic literature.



Now, once again taking the bull by the horns, Prof. Lal thunders that the Harappan or Indus-Sarasvati civilisation is not only archaeologically the oldest civilisation of India, but that it is the material counterpart of the Vedic texts! Supporting this bold hypothesis is powerful evidence from hydrology, geology, literature, archaeology and radiocarbon dating. A picture clearly emerges of a vibrant material civilisation with profound metaphysical insights in the north-western region, which bequeathed us the unity and continuity that are the hallmarks of Indian tradition.



Amazingly, every little aspect of our civilisation can be traced back to the dawn of our religion and culture in the Sarasvati basin. At Nausharo in pre-partition India (now Pakistan), French excavator Jean-Francois Jarrige found a small terracotta figurine of a woman, hair painted black, and red paint in the medial parting indicating the sindoor worn by Hindu married women to this day. Carbon dating traces the levels where the image was found to circa 2800-2600 BCE. Similarly, the famous bronze statuette of the dancing girl, found at Mature Harappan levels of Mohenjo-daro, reveals the continuity of the practice of wearing serial bangles on the upper arms in parts of Haryana, Rajasthan and Gujarat, the very regions where Harappan culture most thrived.



The Periplus of the Erythrean Sea, an unknown mariner’s account of the sea trade between India and the Red Sea in the early centuries AD, and the seventh century Chinese pilgrim Hieun-Tsang, both mention the export of beads from India. Chanhu-daro in Sindh and Lothal in Gujarat have yielded a rich bead-making industry.



Far more startling is the continuity in agriculture, which sustained this rich civilisation and the arts and crafts that in turn created a flourishing overseas trade, and wealth that made India a coveted prize for adventurers in the centuries that unfolded. Excavations at Kalibangan in the Hanumangarh district, Rajasthan, from the Early Harappan circa 2800 BCE, show fields ploughed wide apart from north to south (for tall mustard plants) and shorter east-west furrows (for gram), so that the multiple crops share the winter sunshine and do not cast shadows upon each other. This pattern endures in Indian fields to this day. This era also created the ploughshare and spoked wheel, the tandoor and roti, chulha and chapatti, and pots and pans and other vessels of daily use!



If these seem like small drops in a civilisation as vast as the ocean, the finding of terracotta figurines in various Yogic asanas, which take the Astanga yoga of Panini (2nd century BCE) back to Harappa and Mohenjo-daro, must make us pause. It is staggering material evidence of spiritual quest accompanying great wealth, unmatched in any ancient civilisation. It is convincing proof, if proof be needed, that the material wealth desired in Vedic mantras refers simultaneously to a deeper metaphysical quest.



This is augmented by the famous limestone statuette of the Mohenjo-daro priest-king, with his eyes introvert and eyelids half-closed, a meditative form later associated with Buddhist tradition, especially in Tibet and China. Yet this form of dhyana is mentioned in the Bhagvadgita (ch. 6, verse 13) which states that the gaze should be fixed on the tip of the nose!



The famous seals of the Sarasvati civilisation reflect later developments in Hindu religion and culture – the worship of Siva as a linga; Pasupati seated in yogic posture surrounded by animals; buffalo sacrifice; worship of the sacred pipal; the crucial role of agni in the havana or yajna; the fire altars for individual and communal worship; the kamandalus of the sadhu; the sacred svastika… I could go on, is nothing new?



Town planning, especially given the chaos in our cities today, will remain ancient India’s greatest contribution to civilisation. Be it Kalibangan, or Sisupalgarh near Bhubaneshwar, Orissa, the grid pattern with streets running north-south and east-west was the rage. This, it is pertinent, was an era in which Egypt or Mesopotamia (the West’s favourite ‘cradle’ of civilisation) had no notion of such town planning – which must be conceded was original to India. To cap it all, there were covered drains and manholes for discharge of sullage.



Bricks were kiln-fired, and there was bonding, with bricks laid out in alternate courses – length-wise and breadth-wise – for strong walls, way back in the third millennium BCE. And clay floors were soled with fragments of terracotta nodules and large pieces of charcoal – to absorb moisture, prevent dampness travelling up the walls, and inhibiting termites!



Describing in detail the major Harappan settlements - Kalibangan in Rajasthan; Banawali and Rakhigarhi in Hissar, Haryana; Harappa in Sahiwal, Pakistani Punjab; Mohenjo-daro, Pakistan; Surkotada and Dholavira in Kachchha, Gujarat (which yielded terracotta horse figurines); and Lothal in Ahmedabad, Gujarat; Prof. Lal has traced the vast spread and efflorescence of a civilisation going back more than five thousand years. It is rich in agriculture and familiar with many types of grains and cereals and fruits; animal husbandry is known and many animals are domesticated – cow, sheep, goat, pig, camel and elephant; the spotted deer, blackbuck and sambhar are hunted for food; fish and turtle are known. Above all, there is irrefutable evidence about knowledge of the horse and its usage, with bones found at numerous sites, including Lothal, Kalibangan and Surkotada.



Vedic Harappan civilisation used its long coastline from Gujarat to Sindh and Baluchistan for a thriving sea trade with the Gulf and Africa, selling marine, mineral and forest resources to distant markets. A coffin with the deodar lid suggests that the Himalayas were sourced for wood, with logs being pushed downstream as is the practice today. There was a rich industry in bead-making, shell, ivory-working, not to mention metal, mainly copper and bronze, though gold and silver ornaments had also arrived.



Truly a Golden Age. The only thing missing is the inscrutable script, surely a precursor to Brahmi, the language that developed later. But who were these Vedic people – were they Aryan invaders as we were taught in school, or indigenous ancestors whose achievements were ‘stolen’ by ascribing them to so-called Aryans, a people who have left no traces of like achievements in any of the lands from where they supposedly descended upon the Indian plains.



It is now conclusively established that there was no Aryan Invasion, or even Migration (the current theory). What does remain, however, is a West-led mental resistance to accepting the indigenous origins of the Vedic (Hindu) religion, culture, and civilisation. But the time for intellectual arguments is over; it will take the further economic and military decline of the West to eclipse this denial.



How Deep are the Roots of Indian Civilisation? Archaeology Answers

B B Lal

Aryan Books International, New Delhi, 2009
  Reply
From Muppalla:



M130 marker had provided clue of the first migration of man from Africa to Australia, from south India New Delhi: The Brokpa villagers who live near Batalik in Ladakh are a colourful but confused lot. Their oral history and songs suggest that they migrated from Gilgit, now in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir (PoK), a few hundred years ago. But over the last 50 years they’ve come to believe that they’re remnants of an ancient Aryan population that came to India with Alexander’s army. The “Aryan” theory was floated by a few German Indologists in the 1960s; it caught everyone’s fancy, and the Brokpas turned it into a marketing tool. The problem, however, is that nobody takes it seriously any more and the small, isolated community which had almost convinced itself about the supposition, is now unsure of its roots. So recently when a group of researchers landed up at their villages, promising to tell them about their genetic history, the Brokpas were excited. The Aryan Welfare Association in Dha village swung into action, organizing a camp at which men from different villages came together to take swills of distilled water and spit into vials. For the Brokpas, it was a solemn occasion. This, they were told, would hold the clue to their origin. In distant Madurai, Ramasamy Pitchappan is now busy analysing the spittle.



As principal investigator in India for the Genographic Project, he has spent the better part of the last few years collecting samples from different tribes, castes and linguistic groups across the country. The goal of the project, a collaborative venture between the National Geographic Society, IBM and the Waitt Family Foundation, was to study the patterns of human migration, from the first exodus out of Africa to more recent ones. They hoped to do this by looking at the patterns of DNA mutations across the world. The spread of these mutations or “markers”, would be indicative of human movements. The search was further narrowed to mutations in mitochondrial DNA and the Y-chromosome, both of which, unlike other genetic material, are passed intact down the generations. A chance mutation in either of these would, therefore, also be inherited intact. One such mutation, known as the M130 marker, had provided evidence of the first migration of man from Africa to Australia, through south India. It was discovered in 2001 by Pitchappan, working in collaboration with noted geneticist Spencer Wells, in a small group of people in Jyothimanickam village near Madurai. The carrier, Virumandi Andithevar, an unsuspecting 30-year-old systems administrator, had been declared the “first” Indian. The Genographic Project was started in 2005 to assess the distribution of such markers, and discover new ones. Similar studies had been done in India, but they’d been much more localized and the sample sizes were smaller. The India operations started a year late but has already collected the 10,000 samples they’d aimed to gather, Pitchappan says proudly. Over the last four years, his small band of researchers has fanned out across the country, visiting communities that have been selected for their uniqueness, size and recorded histories. “We’ve tried to select groups that are likely to have divergent migratory histories,” explains Pitchappan.





The Meitei of Manipur were selected for being the only Vaishnavites in the region; the Garo of Meghalaya by virtue of being the only tribal community that allows marriage between first cousins; the Jenu Kuruba, honey gatherers from the forests of Nagarhole, for their unique profession; and the residents of Malana in Himachal Pradesh for their self-imposed isolation. Convincing these communities to take part in the study was not always easy. It took researcher V.S. Arun a few days to persuade the residents of Malana to part with their samples. “The problem,” he says, “ was that we needed to give them distilled water for the samples, but their laws forbade them from accepting food or water from outsiders.” In the end it took the intervention of the village council to sort out the impasse. The tiny Sunni community in Nyoma, on the India-China border in Ladakh, initially accused the researchers of practising black magic. Their origins, they told the researchers, were determined by God, not by spit. Later, it emerged that the problem was neither God nor spit, but a Shia who was acting as the team’s interpreter. The coaxing and the cajoling has, however, paid off. Some of the preliminary results of the project are emerging, and the complicated knot of migration routes into, out of and within India is unravelling. The findings indicate that there have been two major migration routes into India, one along the coastal route from Africa to India and the other through the Khyber pass. “Looking at India as a whole,” says Pitchappan, “the most common marker is the H group, but we’ve found its frequency to be the highest in a few hill tribes of south India.” The implication? The first populations in India probably settled in those parts. As they migrated to other parts of the country, new markers emerged. The O group emerged in north-east India and spread in Tibet, Myanmar and parts of South-East Asia. The L group remained confined to Tamil Nadu and parts of south India, limited by small-scale local migrations. The M45 marker, on the other hand, spread to Central Asia and onwards to Europe. It also came back to India through later migrations in the opposite direction. The R1A1 marker emerged in north India, and is also surprisingly found in lower frequencies among the Brahmins of Tamil Nadu.



Pitchappan believes that its distribution in the south correlates with the movement of Brahmins from north to south during the Chola period. Much more remains to be discovered. Detailed migration patterns will emerge, says Pitchappan, as more of the 10,000 samples collected so far are processed. Field trips to large parts of the country such as Maharashtra, Gujarat, Madhya Pradesh and Uttar Pradesh will also take place in the first half of 2010. By the end of the year his team is hoping to publish studies correlating migration with language and caste formation in small groups in India. “It’s an exhilarating and challenging project,” says Subhadeepta Ray, a researcher at the Delhi School of Economics who has been studying the interaction of sociology and genetics that such projects entail. “The work so far has been very thorough and detailed.” Pitchappan has yet another agenda for the project. “I hope,” he says, “that once people understand the biological basis of their differences they will become a little more sensible about issues like caste and religion.” Meanwhile, the Brokpas wait anxiously for their results.
  Reply
Ramana,

the above article is the Spencer Wells version of 2 out of Africa exodus

with AIT

The other version, more genetically proven is single out of Africa exodus

to India, with caucasoid formed originally in North India



What I do know is that the brahmin north-south divide

is along the Narmada river

And historical traditions speak of a migration from Gujurat as

the main source of South Indian Brahmins



UP, Bihar and Bengal brahmins have R1A1 at 60 - 70%

whereas Guju brahmins have R1A1 at 33%



South Indian brahmins have R1A1 at 28%

And about 18% L1, a south Indian Y marker



H is associated with backward castes

35% among backward castes

Gypsies are also H



Conversely R ( R1A, R2, ) and J ( J2A ) is associated

with North Indian forward castes and L1 with south Indian forward castes



What this also shows is that there was hardly any rape

of backward caste women by forward caste men

In Latin America, most of the Y markers are R1B,

the spanish killed off the men and raped the women



Y-DNA stats from Dienekes blog



R1A is the Aryan Y marker, found at 50% rate in eastern Europe



South Indian Non-Brahmins

R2 = 3.5%

R1A = 11.8%

L1 = 18.8%

J2A = 2.4%

H = 35%



South Indian Brahmins

R2 = 10.2%

R1A = 28.8%

L1 = 17%

J2A = 13.6%

H = 8.5%



North Indian Brahmins

R2 = 16.3%

R1A = 45.4%

L1 = 2.3%

J2A = 9.3%

H = 13%



North Indian OBC castes

R2 = 18.8%

R1A = 10.4%

R1B = 6.3%

L1 = 6.3%

J2A = 4.2%

H = 35%
  Reply
post moved to DNA thread
  Reply
post moved to DNA thread
  Reply
[quote name='G.Subramaniam' date='03 January 2010 - 07:57 AM' timestamp='1262485183' post='103273']



South Indian brahmins have R1A1 at 28%

And about 18% L1, a south Indian Y marker



H is associated with backward castes

35% among backward castes

Gypsies are also H



Conversely R ( R1A, R2, ) and J ( J2A ) is associated

with North Indian forward castes and L1 with south Indian forward castes



What this also shows is that there was hardly any rape

of backward caste women by forward caste men

In Latin America, most of the Y markers are R1B,

the spanish killed off the men and raped the women



Y-DNA stats from Dienekes blog



R1A is the Aryan Y marker, found at 50% rate in eastern Europe



[/quote]



GSub,



A couple of objections to the statistics quoted above and the ( inferred ) interpretation. While it is true, that R1a correlates with upper castes broadly, the clustering of brahmins ( like all other castes ) has always been shown to be regional. In other words, Tamil brahmins cluster with other non tamil non brahmin castes ( but not tribals ).



In the south, some of the highest R1a % is found among Pallars, Chenchu, Vanniyar, and even Badaga, folks that can hardly be called upper castes and are more dalits and tribals. In other words, R1a ancestry does not linearly correlate with upper caste ( or brahmin ancestry ). And again for groups like Tamil Brahmins, that perhaps were originally founded my small groups that migrated from Gujarat , the founder effect becomes very important. If the founding group of brahmins had H haplogroup in North India ( as even NI Brahmin groups have some H % ) perhaps Tamil Brahmins would predominantly H as well.



( On a different note, the presence of R1a in India is being attributed to several older neolithic migrations, not just the arrival of IE settlers around 3000 BC. The presence of R1a in Chenchu's is an example. It is even possible the earlier R1as looked different than the later R1a's as the evolution of white skin

itself was a recent mutation not older than 9000 years )



And Spanish invasion of SA with Upper Caste domain over back ward caste in India are not comparable . Spanish men were from a completely different race, speaking a different language and more important of a different religion ( A proselytizing ( pardon my spelling ) Christianity ) and they had never met each other before the invasion. Spanish men ( General Cortez ) were basically conquerors that specifically came to conquer.



From the statement above, from what i could interpret , it appears as if Gsub is implying that unlike Spanish conquerors , Indian upper caste had a chance to rape but magnanimously chose not to do it.( or i could be wrong here though)



Upper caste and back ward caste divide is a relatively recent construct, with the racial differences being not so sharp. The caste system was more of a more harmonious ( or not so harmonious ) division of society into several professions, without any domineering or invasion for most part though, a system that became more rigid and hereditary in the last 1000 years or so. ( i am sure, there were several upper caste men that maintained wives from castes lower down the chain on the sly, but i am not sure if it was wide spread and openly encouraged ) .



Regds,

Krishna
  Reply
[quote name='Krishna' date='05 January 2010 - 08:00 PM' timestamp='1262701375' post='103353']

GSub,



A couple of objections to the statistics quoted above and the ( inferred ) interpretation. While it is true, that R1a correlates with upper castes broadly, the clustering of brahmins ( like all other castes ) has always been shown to be regional. In other words, Tamil brahmins cluster with other non tamil non brahmin castes ( but not tribals ).



In the south, some of the highest R1a % is found among Pallars, Chenchu, Vanniyar, and even Badaga, folks that can hardly be called upper castes and are more dalits and tribals. In other words, R1a ancestry does not linearly correlate with upper caste ( or brahmin ancestry ). And again for groups like Tamil Brahmins, that perhaps were originally founded my small groups that migrated from Gujarat , the founder effect becomes very important. If the founding group of brahmins had H haplogroup in North India ( as even NI Brahmin groups have some H % ) perhaps Tamil Brahmins would predominantly H as well.



( On a different note, the presence of R1a in India is being attributed to several older neolithic migrations, not just the arrival of IE settlers around 3000 BC. The presence of R1a in Chenchu's is an example. It is even possible the earlier R1as looked different than the later R1a's as the evolution of white skin

itself was a recent mutation not older than 9000 years )



And Spanish invasion of SA with Upper Caste domain over back ward caste in India are not comparable . Spanish men were from a completely different race, speaking a different language and more important of a different religion ( A proselytizing ( pardon my spelling ) Christianity ) and they had never met each other before the invasion. Spanish men ( General Cortez ) were basically conquerors that specifically came to conquer.



From the statement above, from what i could interpret , it appears as if Gsub is implying that unlike Spanish conquerors , Indian upper caste had a chance to rape but magnanimously chose not to do it.( or i could be wrong here though)



Upper caste and back ward caste divide is a relatively recent construct, with the racial differences being not so sharp. The caste system was more of a more harmonious ( or not so harmonious ) division of society into several professions, without any domineering or invasion for most part though, a system that became more rigid and hereditary in the last 1000 years or so. ( i am sure, there were several upper caste men that maintained wives from castes lower down the chain on the sly, but i am not sure if it was wide spread and openly encouraged ) .



Regds,

Krishna

[/quote]





Actually, Tambrams DNA aligns more with the Saurashtrian community than with the rest



What I was trying to say is that historically if the caste system had been oppressive,

one would expect to see the backward caste Y DNA match the forward caste Y DNA



Since this is not the case, large scale caste oppression as in rape, has not happened
  Reply
Quote:Thank you for your response. You rightly wonder where this research leads to. We are indeed not interested in it as a historical curiosity.



I completely agree with you that it does not matter how a theory came into being as long as it is sustained by evidence and clarifies aspects of the world we live in. However, there are serious reasons to doubt whether this is so in the case of the Aryan Invasion or Immigration Theory.



The current literature about the Aryans and their migrations shows that the AIT/AMT is not as unproblematic or sustained by evidence as you seem to think. Of course, as I am not a Sanskritist, I am in no position to challenge the scientificity of the linguistic studies Witzel has done and I have no intention of doing so. However, I can say that when it comes to Witzel's and others' claims about the history of the Indian people and culture – that there once was an Aryan people, that had a Vedic religion, Sanskrit as its language, an ideology that structured society and imposed all of this on the indigenous population of India when they arrived there – these are not supported by the evidence he provides. The problem arises when scholars like Witzel link the linguistic facts about the Indo-Aryan languages to a people with a particular culture and religion.



As you yourself say: " the Rg Veda is not the record of an immigrating community,but was composed many centuries after IndoEuropean languages entered India; and secondly it was the record of only one of the many IE peoples in India." If this is true then this seriously challenges the foundation for theses that link the dispersal of the Indo-Aryan languages to the migrations of a people and culture (be it from or to India).



If we look at the literature about the Aryans we see that many scholars indeed struggle to link the available facts about India's past to claims about the culture, people and society at that time. This has brought many to conclude that 'the Aryans' only refers to a linguistic group, or to a cultural group which cannot be linked to a specific language, or to the followers of the Vedas but then without linking this to a culture or without making claims about the role these played in society, etc. Yet, at the same time the notion of the Aryans as a the people that had Sanskrit as their language and Vedism as their religion and ideology, remains unchallenged. The existence of such an Aryan people remains the starting point of most descriptions and studies of the development of the Indian culture.



So, in order to see whether Witzel's proof or evidence for an Aryan immigration is scientifically valid or not we need to take a closer look at the notion of the Aryans. That is, at the relation between the Vedas and a people with a particular culture, religion and language. We are currently working on an analysis of the contemporary literature on the Aryans to see whether there is any evidence for such a link. If not, then it becomes relevant to look at the development of the idea of the Aryans and their role in the development of the Indian culture. The article we uploaded takes a first step in doing this. We try to show that the fundamental theoretical outlines of the Aryan Invasion theory reflects the European cultural experience of India rather than any scientific or empirical research into the Indian past. We further argue that these theoretical outlines are Christian theological in nature. A lot more research needs to be done on this. Amongst other things about the relation between the notion of an Aryan people and the caste system.



With regard to 'problematizing the caste theory' the question should be 'which theory'?. The claim that there exists a caste system in India can hardly be called a theory. At the moment there exists no single theory that shows that there is such a system and how it works. The fieldwork results of the Centre for the Study of Local Cultures moreover show that at least in Karnataka no system exists that hierarchically divides society with the Brahmins on top.





I hope this clarifies the aim of the article.



Yours



Marianne
  Reply
Dhu< have you read this and what are your views on it?



[quote name='acharya' date='06 April 2010 - 03:48 AM' timestamp='1270525214' post='105727']

Origins of Vedic civilization

[/quote]
  Reply
Ramana,



Look at the conclusions of the piece!!



Quote:page 33: The Vedic civilization, far more ancient than the Greek, spread from India to Europe, via Anatolia, Thrace, and Greece, and from there into Western Europe. The direction of the flow was from India into Arabia and then to Europe. Evidence shows that the Vedic

tradition entered into Europe sometime before the early fourteenth century BC.

The Rig Vedic tradition and its literature almost certainly came into existence

sometime long before the earliest civilizations of Mesopotamia, Sumeria, and Egypt.

These were relatively late events in the history of civilization and probably owe their

existence to the earlier civilization of Vedic India.



On page 39, the author mentions the vedic origin of the 'knowledge of consciousness' (in conjunction with 'maharishi' - probably Mahesh Yogi, his Guru). Now, the question is why he makes an association between the plausibility of certain ancient migration events and the presence of such knowledge in India -- couldn't such knowledge have arrived in India from without? The answer is no, because we know that, even when the world was solely heathen, India was still the teacher of the world, as attested by the Greeks and ME'ers, and independently by the Chinese, etc. To (historically) usher in such knowledge in India while the rest of the heathen world is relatively ignorant of the same is impossible (for some reason); in fact, such was not even "desired" by the ancients and was considered 'irrelevant'.



Now, with Monotheism/Modernism, which denies the presence and validity of such knowledge by problematizing experience/learning/narratives as a deviation from perfect (and all-saving) belief/ideology, it became possible to posit an opposite scenario; such a scenario when translated into the material world also had a counterpart, known as colonialism (whose felt force of presence also legitimized the monotheist theory). Any one component could never be appropriated by itself, but when integrated into a "system," the contrary results seemed more or less self-evident. Thus, linguistics when visualized through 'class' (eg as vernacular versus sacred) seemed to suggest certain meta-scenarios... Any desired result could be achieved; in this case, india as perpetually colonized.



In addition, any Chanakyaness on the part of the heathen could be recast as colonialism. An exacting and demanding Buddha could be turned 'rational', the Chanakya Chinese could be turned 'legalistic' and ideological, the Pandavas could be "conservative" with Kauravas as "liberals," a tattooed villager into a proponent of lifestyle, a Shukra into a firebreather prophet, and a bandhu as a votary of apartheid.



The remainder of the heathen realm was receptive to Indian knowledge because of a shared heathen dynamics; Monotheism systematically eliminated such considerations from the equation and could thus project its present colonization back into the past as well. Probably, there is some need to colonize the past to maintain integrity in the facade.



The ancient Judaism/Christianity binary was replicated as a "Hinduism"/Modernism binary. Judaism was the spitted-out shell of the colonized's past. "Hinduism" is the same.
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