[quote name='Arun_S' date='13 February 2010 - 04:26 AM' timestamp='1266014926' post='104165']
What part of my post indicate that I do not know?
I am no new bee, and write after due technical considerations. Thought I am willing to learn.
[/quote]
yes ~350 KM LEO will be more useful for longer life crafts.
You will be hard pressed to defend your above one liner which has no legs to stand on, for 350 KM LEO is not suitable for long life of the crafts.
See what the following says:
The lifetime of a satellite is strongly dependent on its altitude. At 300 km altitude it may last for 20-50 days (depending on the Sun's activity level) before it reenters and burns up. However, at 180 km, this lifetime reduces to mere hours.
I have nothing against the messenger, I was after the message (above) which is universally flawed as per prevalant astronomy set of norms.....
I might be new here, but I have migrated from other forum and know how to separate the chaff from the grain because I am not fresh off the boat.
Good luck!
02-13-2010, 06:00 AM
(This post was last modified: 02-13-2010, 06:09 AM by Arun_S.)
[quote name='ankit-s' date='13 February 2010 - 04:56 AM' timestamp='1266016739' post='104166']
yes ~350 KM LEO will be more useful for longer life crafts.
You will be hard pressed to defend your above one liner which has no legs to stand on, for 350 KM LEO is not suitable for long life of the crafts.
[/quote]
On LEO I am simply responding to Ramana, and Ramana is not just asking question related to orbital life due to drag (he and I knows what LEO is used for, and both of us know intricately residual upper atmospheric drag, there are other forces in low orbit other than drag that he & I am referring to). I don't want to get into any further argument with you on this.
Shiv saar,
What sort of apogee are we talking about if say a missile has to travel ~ 1000 or 1500Km? (I say a chini - NoKo type missile)?
Is the 100+ Km altitude of intercept of PAD say from a naval platform adequate for midcourse intercept?
I note that the distance from Sonmiani to Mumbai is some 950 Kms.
[quote name='Gagan' date='13 February 2010 - 05:47 PM' timestamp='1266062977' post='104178']
Shiv saar,
What sort of apogee are we talking about if say a missile has to travel ~ 1000 or 1500Km? (I say a chini - NoKo type missile)?
Is the 100+ Km altitude of intercept of PAD say from a naval platform adequate for midcourse intercept?
I note that the distance from Sonmiani to Mumbai is some 950 Kms.
[/quote]
Mr gagan, out of curiosity, you are looking out 4 Dr Shiv of BR fame would come here n reply you?
Although I have a pony brain, but the likelyhood of this is very thin.
Dr. Shiv is my fav witty n Intellectual person who knows something of everything n eveything of something.
However, if this question was meant for other erudite person, I may try 2 respond with ur permission, cause the question has been left begging for several hours now with no takers.....
Happy 2 help na...
02-14-2010, 06:49 AM
(This post was last modified: 02-14-2010, 06:50 AM by ramana.)
So dregs are coming here too?
350km has more life than 200km and that is what I learnt from the reply. Why are you so combative? And what your real agenda?
[url="http://news.rediff.com/column/2010/feb/09/why-indias-military-needs-an-urgent-update.htm"]Why India's military needs an urgent update[/url]
Quote:February 09, 2010 17:58 IST
A strong military cannot be maintained with discipline alone. Today, a strong military means state of the art equipment, steady supply of munitions and morale and most importantly reconnaissance, research and 2nd/3rd strike capabilities, writes Pramod Kumar Buravalli.
[size="5"]W[/size]hen I heard the Indian Air Force Chief [color="#800080"]Air Chief Marshal P V Naik admitting last year that India lacks the air power to meet the myriad terror threats facing the country[/color], I didn't blame him. He was and is still right.
When you have identified adversaries in all geographical directions and just 29 operational squadrons in your air force, how can you claim to be a strong and sovereign nation?
Can you protect all of your borders let alone airspace, cities and strategic installations? Can you even contemplate using the air force to launch a counter strike and a 2nd strike?
These questions have to be constantly asked and answers sought from the Indian leadership.
[color="#800080"]Today, India's only deterrence lies in the (under-development) INS Arihant and the (over-tested) AGNI missile[/color]. For a country and civilization that boasts of the Vimanika Shastra, Chandrayaan missions and numerous wise and dedicated missile men, having so few strike options is indigestible.
Advisors, researchers and strategists have all lamented the lack of military industrial complexes in India. When you are a country of 1.2 billion and aspiring to be at the high table of world powers, the least you can do is to produce atleast half of your military equipment indigenously.
(As always) after my initial round of critiquing, I am unable to stop myself from recommending the following long term steps for the Indian Air Force (since the Indian Navy and Army seem to have taken the lead in the race to stay ahead of our adversaries):
Stop buying old junk from world markets: The aircraft that are being offered to the IAF today by outside countries are older technologies. Only the Su-30/35, Tu-Blackjack, F-22/35, B-1/2 type aircraft can be worthy of procurement and that too under transparent technology transfer agreements.
Start announcing competitive aircraft designing contracts to Indian private sector companies that can (just like Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Northrop Grumman and Pratt & Whitney in the USA) come up with competing designs which can later be jointly developed into long serving aircrafts by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and the winning bidder. The Tatas, Mahindras, L&Ts all have the expertise and financial muscle to become the next Boeing or Lockheed.
Create an aerospace military research organisation that focuses exclusively on research, design, development and testing for military uses of aerospace.
For the short term:
Pour more finances and manpower into developing unmanned combat aerial vehicles: India should continue joint initiatives with Russians, Americans and Israelis plus simultaneously develop its own indigenous public and private development initiatives. ADE is already working overtime to develop three new UAV variants. India needs at least 20 squadrons (360 aircraft).
Research and Development with Russia: The fifth generation Indo-Russian (PAK FA) fighter aircraft will be ready for induction by 2017-2020. At least 15 squadrons of these fighters will be required to replace MiG 29's and Mirages by 2025.
Procuring atleast 200 more Sukhoi-30MKI fighter bombers: IAF needs to maintain atleast 500 Sukhois to maintain air supremacy.
Investing more resources into Light Combat Aircraft/Medium Combat Aircraft: IAF is all set to order 2-3 squadrons from HAL over the next few years. However, more time needs to be spent in making the MCA a success rather than just looking at the LCA.
MRCA (MIG 21/27) Replacement: Via a Global RFP (request for proposal), the IAF is set to acquire 180 fighters from 2012 onwards to replace MiG-21s/27s and the competition is between Rafale, Grippen, F-16, F/A-18E/F and MiG-35 .
History shows that the Indians use any technology platform for over 30-40 years and unless the IAF gets the go ahead to purchase the JSF or the F-22, there is no point in getting older technologies from any of the competing bidders.
Missiles: Agni V, Brahmos, Akash and Trishul may be sufficient for now but a new range of undetectable stealth missiles have to be developed for the IAF and navy by the DRDO. These new generations of missiles have to have tactical, surgical and strategic strike capabilities.
Conclusion:
The Indian military and political leadership has to keep in mind two simple things.
Diversity and democracy are tough to maintain. If India wants to be the flag bearer of these two principles in the eastern hemisphere, it has to maintain an independent and strong military.
A strong military cannot be maintained with discipline alone. Today, a strong military means state of the art equipment, steady supply of munitions and morale and most importantly reconnaissance, research and 2nd/3rd strike capabilities.
To counter a giant like China which is constantly trying to find a chink in our armour, we need to revisit Sun Tzu's Art of War and an interesting quote I found invaluable:
Quote:"If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him.
If he is in superior strength, evade him.
If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him.
Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.
If he is taking his ease, give him no rest.
If his forces are united, separate them.
If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them.
Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected".
I hope the Indian leaders are listening.
Pramod Kumar Buravalli
02-14-2010, 12:03 PM
(This post was last modified: 02-14-2010, 12:04 PM by sai_k.)
[quote name='ramana' date='13 February 2010 - 07:27 PM' timestamp='1266110360' post='104193']
So dregs are coming here too?
[/quote]
..but I just lurk and try to understand what you guys talk. I visit here often to read what Arun ji says. <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='  ' />
[quote name='ankit-s' date='14 February 2010 - 12:44 AM' timestamp='1266087966' post='104186']
Mr gagan, out of curiosity, you are looking out 4 Dr Shiv of BR fame would come here n reply you?
Although I have a pony brain, but the likelyhood of this is very thin.
Dr. Shiv is my fav witty n Intellectual person who knows something of everything n eveything of something.
However, if this question was meant for other erudite person, I may try 2 respond with ur permission, cause the question has been left begging for several hours now with no takers.....
Happy 2 help na...
[/quote]
Horrible error on my part and thanks for pointing that out ankit-s. Indeed fatal error. <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='  ' />
Perhaps you can answer that question for me.
What I hoped to get elaboration on was, as someone pointed on BRF, wrt the Dhanush test off a Sukanya class and seemed to suggest that there is a similarity between the liquid fuelled dhanush and the PAD. I wonder if India will eventually deploy a PAD equivalent on a naval platform, and further if the PAD is intended to be used as a midcourse intercept vehicle. Arun_S and I had a discussion on BR where he suggested that India was readying a midcourse intercption capability wrt china. While I thought this was not possible with the current PAD, because the the chinese ICBM launch sites are too far north and their altitude will be beyond PAD's capabilities.
But wrt Pakistan, certainly the PAD or its ultimate derivative might be capable of midcourse intercept even. Even better if such a system is mobile on a navy vessel.
PS: why do you refer to people who also post on BRF as 'abc from BR'? <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='  ' />
[quote name='ankit-s' date='14 February 2010 - 12:44 AM' timestamp='1266087966' post='104186']
Mr gagan, out of curiosity, you are looking out 4 Dr Shiv of BR fame would come here n reply you?
Although I have a pony brain, but the likelyhood of this is very thin.
Dr. Shiv is my fav witty n Intellectual person who knows something of everything n eveything of something.
However, if this question was meant for other erudite person, I may try 2 respond with ur permission, cause the question has been left begging for several hours now with no takers.....
Happy 2 help na...
[/quote]
Let the facts unfold on Nodong with the range of 1200 that fit yr parameters (1000-1500km)
Manufacturer: Korea North. Launches: 7. Failures: 1. Success Rate: 85.71%. First Launch Date: 1990-05-01. Last Launch Date: 2006-07-05. Launch data is: continuing. Apogee: 150 km (90 mi). Liftoff Thrust: 255.000 kN (57,326 lbf). Total Mass: 14,500 kg (31,900 lb). Core Diameter: 1.19 m (3.90 ft). Total Length: 14.82 m (48.61 ft). Standard warhead mass: 700 kg (1,540 lb). Maximum range: 1,200 km (700 mi). Boost Propulsion: Storable liquid rocket. Guidance: Inertial.
Nodong Chronology
1990 May 1 - Gitdaeryung -. Test mission Agency: CMIK. Apogee: 150 km (90 mi).
1992 June 1 - Gitdaeryung -. FAILURE: Failure. Test mission Agency: CMIK. Apogee: 0 km ( mi).
1993 May 29 - Gitdaeryung -. Test mission Agency: CMIK. Apogee: 150 km (90 mi).
2006 July 4 - 19:04 GMT - Gitdaeryung -. Agency: CMIK. Apogee: 150 km (90 mi).
2006 July 4 - 22:31 GMT - Gitdaeryung -. Agency: CMIK. Apogee: 150 km (90 mi).
2006 July 4 - 22:32 GMT - Gitdaeryung -. Agency: CMIK. Apogee: 150 km (90 mi).
2006 July 5 - 08:20 GMT - Gitdaeryung -. Agency: CMIK. Apogee: 150 km (90 mi).
Now you got clear picture of apogee numbers @ 1200 KM on NOKO type as u desired.....
[quote name='Gagan' date='14 February 2010 - 06:22 PM' timestamp='1266151451' post='104207']
Quote:Horrible error on my part and thanks for pointing that out ankit-s. Indeed fatal error.
Fatal error is better than a fatal accident!
Quote:Perhaps you can answer that question for me.
Sure my friend
Quote:What I hoped to get elaboration on was, as someone pointed on BRF, wrt the Dhanush test off a Sukanya class and seemed to suggest that there is a similarity between the liquid fuelled dhanush and the PAD. I wonder if India will eventually deploy a PAD equivalent on a naval platform, and further if the PAD is intended to be used as a midcourse intercept vehicle. Arun_S and I had a discussion on BR where he suggested that India was readying a midcourse intercption capability wrt china. While I thought this was not possible with the current PAD, because the the chinese ICBM launch sites are too far north and their altitude will be beyond PAD's capabilities.
If you have a mobile patform, where u can move it to yr desired point of launch place (in this case up north) and with a combo of PAD n AAD (precision 0.5m)you are able to shoot a chinese intruding missile. Remember India is able to shoot satelites (albiet unproven), however if they dont want to demonstrate for political reason is another ball game. According to scientist V. K. Saraswat such missiles will work in tandem to ensure a hit probability of 99.8 percent. If u have a range of over 150 kms and a maximum velocity of 1400 m/s with faster on board comps and precision INS system coupled with adequate software codes, the job is doable with flying colors Gagan
Quote:But wrt Pakistan, certainly the PAD or its ultimate derivative might be capable of midcourse intercept even. Even better if such a system is mobile on a navy vessel.
Yes! due to a proximity factor wrt to Pakistan.
A mobile launcher or a sea platform, vessel, is a luxury, because it can be moved to where one wants to make it a point of launch place.
Quote:PS: why do you refer to people who also post on BRF as 'abc from BR'? <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />
[/quote]
If you r not comfy, I would desist from so doing.......
But.....Look at what you have done here in the following on the same issue:
Quote:Arun_S and I had a discussion on BR
Is it a "lion giving vegetarian lecture to a lamb" type situation here ?
Hey I am all smiles.....you are good, I like yr style.
<img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='  ' />
Thanks for answering that.
So this means that AD-1 / AD-2 provided they have that altitude of intercept, will be able to provide quite good midcourse intercept for pakistani origin missiles.
To protect Mumbai- southern India, such a system may be placed anyway along the coast or on a warship, and will be able do its job effectively.
Compared to boost phase and terminal stage intercept, mid-course intercept if possible is supposedly more easier? I would assume the missile speed is the lowest, most missiles don't maneuver and there is comparatively less clutter for the radars.
02-15-2010, 04:46 AM
(This post was last modified: 02-15-2010, 04:56 AM by Arun_S.)
[quote name='sai_k' date='14 February 2010 - 12:11 PM' timestamp='1266129205' post='104200']
..but I just lurk and try to understand what you guys talk. I visit here often to read what Arun ji says. <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=' ' />
[/quote]
Sai_K: I do not believe that remark was directed at you or constructive participates like you. I am happy to interact with you.
Gagan: You have ROCKSIM, use this confign for Nodong/re-painted Paki Gadha-Ghodi and see for yourself what apogee will be for lofted or depressed trajectory for a Paki missile aimed at Delhi, Agra, Mathura, Nagpur, Ahmedabad, Mumbai.
Code: Pakistan Ghauri - DPRK Nodong.cfg
Payload = 700.0 Kg, Number of Stages = 2, Simulation Time Granularity = 0.250 Second
Launch Direction = 45 degrees-North, Launch Latitude = 30.00 degrees
Segment-Name ISP(Vac) ISP(SL) Stage-Mass Fuel-Fract Burn-Time Thrust-Direction Diameter Length ThrustOverdrive OverdrivePeriod
Stage1 264.0 226.0, 15,092.0 0.880 110.0 Sec 47.0 Degree 1.35 Meter 16.00 Meter 35.00 % 30.00 %
RV 001.0 001.0, 00,001.0 0.865 001.0 Sec 45.0 Degree 0.50 Meter 04.00 Meter 05.00 % 10.00 %
ADD/PAD for mid course intercept for the trajectories Pakis could/would use will not work, not withstanding Nodong published test flights trajectories, Pakis will not use those trajectories. Note that current know mid course interception by US plan to take down missile near mid point of it trajectory.
AAD/PAD have restricted umbrella coverage, given their known interception altitude. Like all ABM system, mid-course interception business is even more dependent on early warning systems and accuracy of precision radars. AAD is of no use if it is not aimed precisely (no matter how many AAD one shoots, even in a volley).
There is no news about Agni II (AT) but work is going on.
India's future missile arsenal would include
Shourya (may replace Agni I)
Agni II (AT) (extended range version of Agni II)
Agni III (tech demonstrator)
Agni III (3A) with 3 stages(can it be called as Agni V ??)
Agni III (3B) with 4 stages (can also be called as Agni IV ??)
Agni III (3C) with 3 stages (Agni III SLBM)
India is also working on a long range radar for AD-1 and AD-2 anti-ballistic missiles for IRBM and ICBM interception. May be, we are looking at mid-course interception by AD-1 and AD-2 anti-missiles.
It looks like Indian armed forces would be well set by 2020 with 5 ATV nuke subs, Agni III SLBMs, Medium combat fighters (MMRCA), couple of squadrons of PAK-FA, 2 to 3 aircraft carriers, long range subsonic cruise missile Nirbhay and stealth war ships.
[url="http://www.asianage.com/home/india/1672-drdo-divided-on-failures-of-agni-ii.html"] [url="http://www.asianage.com/home/india/1672-drdo-divided-on-failures-of-agni-ii.html"]DRDO divided on failures of Agni-II[/url] [/url]
Quote:Monday, 08 February 2010 21:36
Feb. 8: A blamegame has begun among the scientists of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) over the recurring failures of medium-range surface-to-surface Agni-II missile. [color="#800080"]While a section of senior scientists pointed fingers at the manufacturing defects and faults committed by the junior technical staff when assembling the missile[/color], the latter, along with [color="#800080"]some other scientists, are not ready to subscribe to this[/color], sources in DRDO told this newspaper on Monday.
Even as a high-power fact-finding technical committee has been formed by the defence ministry to find out the exact reason behind the failures of the Agni-II, considered a potent missile in the arsenal of the country, sources said, senior scientists are reportedly striving hard to pass on the buck for the fiasco on the junior technical staff of the Integrated Test Rang (ITR) at Chandipur in Orissaââ¬â¢s Balasore district, which is conducting the trials of these missiles.
Rabindra Nath Choudhury
Bhubaneswar
The problem with self binding missile testing restrain, is that failure analysis is extremely difficult on a production missile with just one or two flight data sets.
Instead of finger pointing, it would be better to do more tests and eliminate possible failure modes.
More test flights that result in failure may temporarily impact missile readiness to deterrence, but is the fastest method to locate failure, fix it and get Agni-II back on track to credible deterrence. The other option is double jeopardy: recessed warhead deterrence (due to limited warhead qty, and fissile material stock) riding on a recessed reliability missile; a.k.a long window of deterrence exposure.
02-16-2010, 12:39 AM
(This post was last modified: 02-16-2010, 12:41 AM by Arun_S.)
[quote name='Bharat_2009' date='15 February 2010 - 12:04 PM' timestamp='1266215182' post='104227']
There is no news about Agni II (AT) but work is going on.[/quote]
Correct Agni-II-AT (the 1.2 m dia missile) will be mass manufactured and will be the mainstay for IRBM ranges. Ms. T Thomas took over that project, and I hope she promptly get this missile in the open.
Quote:India's future missile arsenal would include
Shourya (may replace Agni I)
Agni II (AT) (extended range version of Agni II)
Agni III (tech demonstrator)
Agni III (3A) with 3 stages(can it be called as Agni V ??)
Agni III (3B) with 4 stages (can also be called as Agni IV ??)
Agni III (3C) with 3 stages (Agni III SLBM)
Correct.
Quote:India is also working on a long range radar for AD-1 and AD-2 anti-ballistic missiles for IRBM and ICBM interception. May be, we are looking at mid-course interception by AD-1 and AD-2 anti-missiles.
Once India has space based BM surveillance (to detect missile launch) , and long range radars then 2 stage variant of AAD will be capable of ICBM and mid-course interception, or at least as the missile nears Indian air space.
Quote:It looks like Indian armed forces would be well set by 2020 with 5 ATV nuke subs, Agni III SLBMs, Medium combat fighters (MMRCA), couple of squadrons of PAK-FA, 2 to 3 aircraft carriers, long range subsonic cruise missile Nirbhay and stealth war ships.
Aaap Kay Muh Main Gud aur Shakkar.
02-16-2010, 05:05 AM
(This post was last modified: 02-16-2010, 11:01 AM by Arun_S.)
[url="http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article107287.ece"] Different version of BrahMos to be tested
[/url] Quote:K. V. Prasad
The Hindu India is preparing to test a different version of the supersonic BrahMos cruise missile currently deployed both in the Indian Army and the Navy. India is preparing to test a different version of the supersonic BrahMos cruise missile currently deployed both in the Indian Army and the Navy.
The version for the army would be tested shortly for it efficacy to hit targets on surface after clearing natural obstruction requiring ascent and descent, defence sources said here.
The Air Force variant of BrahMos is also being prepared for test from the underbelly of a Sukhoi-MKI frontline fighter after earlier attempt to fix them under the wings was not successful.
The BrahMos, a joint venture of India and Russia, is also planning to expand its production capacity to reach a level of 100 missiles per year as against half of that number being produced at present.
At present, while India makes 25 missiles at its facilities in Hyderabad and Thiruvananthapuram. The rest of the missiles are being made by Russia there.
So this version of Brahmos employs a trajectory that is terrain following type, while the earlier ones fly higher at cruising altitude.
At low altitude cruising, the Mach 2.5 missile will scare the shit out of Abdul's below with its sonic-boom, while at the same time make life impossible in what was difficult in the first place for even AESA equipped Super Hornet F-18.
What people do not talk about BrahMos is that for given size and fuel carried inside it is more capable than the stated range of 290 km, and with all the excess fuel in hand it can do all kinds of "S-curve" dance and/or low altitude flying.
There won't be 5 ATV N subs, but at current rate there might be 4 (possibly 5) N subs, including the Akula(s), with the IN by 2020. This is just a decade from now.
WRT Brahmos and the Brahmos 2, how will India step out of the MTCR range issue?
WIll India have to demonstrate that the B-2 is and Indian designed missile? Or will a co-produced missile do?
Arun sir,
with all the different modes tested on brahmos,
will it be easier to integrate all this things in Nirbhay missle.
or r we trying to test terrain hugging nirbhay in the name of brahmos.....
Nirbhay's sub-sonic flight control and sensor processing is much more easier than Brahmos flying at Mach-2.5
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