Indian Missile News And Discussion

[ramana]

Moving fins and jets/thrusters are two ways of achieving the boost glide path. What it means is India as mastered both technologies.

-----

Gagan Can you illustrate this trajectory.



Draw a parabolic path to height of 235km at time 306 secs

Follow the curve to height of 120 km at 485 secs

Then have a jinking line of flight to splashdwon at 660secs. The distance will be 660 -485 = 135 secs flight at ~3 km to take into account drag.

You will have a most likely range of 1329+ 405km. Close enough for this type of calc.



Lets see what the news reports say.

[laltaputu]

Arun



why do we have grills between the stages in our AGNI missiles

it may be due to smooth stage separation

but if we can remove those we can load more fuel

other so called technologically advanced countries don't have grills in their missiles like TOPOL-M and others

from your pictures we can see that n case of AGNI-3SL we have removed those grills so the missile became more compact and has greater range than AGNI-3TD.

and does india had mastered the technology of putting another rocket motor stages in the MIRV that we can see from the pictures of AGNI3B,C,SL ?

[laltaputu]

chandragupta

since you have great insight on upcoming AGNI improvements i am asking you that

recently there was news from DRDO in making AGNI 2 canisterised

what i feel that it will we waste of resources and money to make current version of rail mobile AGNI 2 canisterised

so

is they planing to make AGNI2AT of 4000+km range canisterised as it will make more value for efforts

can you please give any news about the AGNI2AT.

waiting eagerly for it to show up and supplement AGNI3TD.

[ramana]

The 'grill' between the motor stages is for venting the rocket exhaust during separation. Having grill design gives you margin during separation. Or else you need to focus on other aspects of separation;quicker ignition etc.

[sai_k]

Thanks ramana. operationally, would the delta distance available via glide feature be included by mil doctrine for coverage?.

[Arun_S]

Sai_k: It was no accidental development/design. The craft is designed per mil requirement from day one; and technical capabilities and tactics may symbiotically evolve.



IMHO rolling down A2 down Rajpath was a show and tell to those who matter.

[Guest]

[url="http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2010/05/25/Indian-official-warns-of-US-defense-plan/UPI-46771274813599/"]Indian official warns of U.S. defense plan[/url]

NEW DELHI, May 25 (UPI) -- For a nation that is increasingly outsourcing its defense needs to the United States, India is warning of the serious pitfalls in such a relations.



Local media report that Indian army chief Gen. V.K. Singh has written to Defense Minister A.K. Antony cautioning the government about foreign military sales purchases from the United States.



The Indian government has been sourcing all its defense deals with Washington through foreign military sales programs, carrying out major defense acquisitions.



According to these non-tender purchases, the U.S. government procures the equipment on behalf of the Indian government from its military companies, making a commission for liaising on behalf of the Pentagon's Defense Security Cooperation Agency.



Such programs kicked off in 2002, when India took to its first major deal, placing orders for the AN/TPQ-37 firefinder weapon-locating radars for the army.



That deal, though, was a frustrating experience, leading to protracted problems with the U.S. firm Raytheon.



Reports, in fact, suggest that the Indian army has had repeated problems in the maintenance of the dozen plus radars it purchased in 2002. Up to two-thirds of the expensive equipment is said to be inoperable because of lack of maintenance.



"A good deal of song and dance was then created as to how the deal presaged greater defense cooperation between India and the U.S. as the sensitive piece of equipment was supplied only to close friends and allies," the Domain-b Indian business magazine quipped earlier this week.



The military official's warning comes at a crucial time. Both the Indian government and the U.S. Department of Defense are thrashing out the final details of two major defense deals.



These include designs to buy 145 ultralight howitzers, estimated at $647 million and intended for deployment along India's border with China. The second deal includes the purchase of 10 transport aircraft in a deal exceeding $2 billion.



"Singed by the troubles with past FMS contracts, the army top brass is now discussing the possibility of hiring corporate lawyers well versed in international negotiations and contracts to come on board for scrutinizing the upcoming contract for howitzers, " The India Times reported, citing unnamed sources.



It said the lawyers would "ensure that the past troubles are kept away."



Since the defense procurement cooperation kicked off, a rash of deals have spawn, including the $2.21 billion purchase of eight Boeing P-8I maritime reconnaissance aircraft; the $962 million deal for six C-130J Hercules transport aircraft for the Indian air force, and the $88 million contract for a U.S. Navy ship and its accompanying helicopters.

Congress is collecting money for next election. Appointed PM is working for others not for India anyway.

[Arun_S]

May 26, 2010 15:00 IST | Updated: May 26, 2010 15:00 IST New Delhi, May 26, 2010

[url="http://beta.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/article438727.ece%20"]ICBM to be a reality by next year: Saraswat[/url]

PTI

Printable version | May 26, 2010 9:13:53 PM | [url="http://beta.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/article438727.ece"]http://beta.thehindu...ticle438727.ece[/url]

India is likely to enter the elite club of nations with Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile (ICBM) capability as the over 5,000 km range Agni-5 missile was expected to become a reality by next year.



“Work is progressing satisfactorily in the development of Agni-5, which is expected to become a reality next year. With this, DRDO would have given India a comprehensive indigenous strategic capability, available with only a few nations of the world,” DRDO chief V.K. Saraswat said at the National Technology Day awards function.



Agni-5 will be the first canistered ballistic missile with range of over 5,000 km into Indian inventory, bringing possible military targets in the whole of China and Pakistan within striking range. The missile is likely to be tested early next year.



Missiles which are capable of being launched from canisters can be fired from multiple platforms and are easily transportable.



Commenting on the Indian missile programme, Mr. Saraswat said, “the success of Agni-3 and other tests have confirmed India’s strategic deterrence capability, which could not have been possible without the preceding developmental efforts in these programmes.”

May 26, 2010 9:13:53 PM | http://beta.thehindu.com/sci-tech/scienc...438727.ece

[ramana]

One thing I don't understand is how does 5000km make an ICBM? Is the geographis vision only that far or is there something else like boost velocity for even this vehicle is sufficient for certain payloads? To me 5000Km equals ~3100 miles which is not much of an inter continental range.

However if its 1.5tonne AIII payload to 5000km it gives hopes.

[emperor]

[quote name='laltaputu' date='19 May 2010 - 12:30 PM' timestamp='1274289728' post='106456']

chandragupta

since you have great insight on upcoming AGNI improvements i am asking you that

recently there was news from DRDO in making AGNI 2 canisterised

what i feel that it will we waste of resources and money to make current version of rail mobile AGNI 2 canisterised

so is they planing to make AGNI2AT of 4000+km range canisterised as it will make more value for efforts

can you please give any news about the AGNI2AT.

waiting eagerly for it to show up and supplement AGNI3TD.

[/quote]

Sorry for my late reply,but unfortunately I cant have moving lips on Agni-2 series at this point of time.And this is what I told to another highly respected member on this forum.



But I can assure you that your wishes does got wings.Later is all depends on your understanding of my statement.





[quote name='ramana']One thing I don't understand is how does 5000km make an ICBM? Is the geographis vision only that far or is there something else like boost velocity for even this vehicle is sufficient for certain payloads? To me 5000Km equals ~3100 miles which is not much of an inter continental range.

However if its 1.5tonne AIII payload to 5000km it gives hopes.[/quote]



Sir ji, this is what called as chanakyan part of deceiving the enemy with fake numbers.

I know,many people who are more enthusiastic over this field always feel guilt over the range of Indian missiles and that too strategic ones.But it has happened to be that our notations are slightly different to those of western and chinese ones.

If one takes account of the A-III which can tharow a mass of 2500kg to more than 3500km,how can the stated number of A-V with 1500kg throw weight and 5000km satisfy the thumb rule? Nah it will never be the case.

A-V without any doubt is a clear entry level missile into the ICBM club.My theory dont simply go after the mass of the solid fuel and the mass of the rocket motor and casings.It is simply just beyond those visual and generic things.

Did is just said that A-V is an entry level? Yes and is likely to sport as many new and fictional technologies onboard.Again why folks are getting confused whether its an MIRVied or MARVied? Reason is, there are basically 2 variants of the same with official calling name being the same.(hidden aspects and project management is the key)

So Ramana,in a most theoritical scenario when adding a 3rd stage on top of a 3500km vehicle with 2500kg throw weight the range will be certainly far greater than the media reported and mis-interpreted 5000km.Let the Chinese be happy.this is like their own ICBMs with ranges of over 7000km and throw weights of only 700kg??



Whether its behind the screens or not,Indian missiles does need to have a lot of throw weight capability for any stated range.And If MIRV is taken into account, then definitely they need to for annihilating a nation in second strike.Because those in BARC screwed us a big time.They want us to do repetitive tests to prove the consistency of the carrier,but unfortunately they didnt proved their consistency..........( <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' /> <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' /> <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' /> <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' /> )In this kind of scenario,everyone is totally dependant on us which makes sense that we need to have a large throw weight capable missiles for any stated ranges.

And guess what? they are having overflowing supplies of fissile materials in their warehouses and labs,but not in a position to test the designed warheads and wants us to test our systems instead to prove reliability.... I donno how fair is this theory <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

But at the end of the day we are obeying our orders and making systems with throw weights of twice the stated while taking the whip <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mellow.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':mellow:' />

[Arun_S]

[quote name='Chandragupta' date='27 May 2010 - 06:35 PM' timestamp='1274965027' post='106595']

Whether its behind the screens or not,Indian missiles does need to have a lot of throw weight capability for any stated range.And If MIRV is taken into account, then definitely they need to for annihilating a nation in second strike. Because those in BARC screwed us a big time.They want us to do repetitive tests to prove the consistency of the carrier,but unfortunately they didnt proved their consistency..........( <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' /> <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' /> <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' /> <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' /> )In this kind of scenario,everyone is totally dependant on us which makes sense that we need to have a large throw weight capable missiles for any stated ranges.

And guess what? they are having overflowing supplies of fissile materials in their warehouses and labs,but not in a position to test the designed warheads and wants us to test our systems instead to prove reliability.... I donno how fair is this theory <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

But at the end of the day we are obeying our orders and making systems with throw weights of twice the stated while taking the whip <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mellow.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':mellow:' />

[/quote]



BARC's R Chidambram of fizzle bum fame ki Jai Ho .....



All because of BARC's failure, that India now needs a missile force armed with puny yield bombs, so that must now be capable of delivering 10 x time more warhead weights. Need 10x more nuclear powered submarines (protected by ring of 10x more hunter killer N submarines), and missiles that are 2-3 times heavier to deliver the heavy fission/FBF payload at ranges that will deter interventionist countries that are beyond immediate oceans.



A very heavy price India has to pay for follies of BARC and R Chidambram.

[Rudra]

Agni-5 test in a year, but no ICBM programme: DRDO



It's just .5 metres longer than the Agni-3 but can carry a 1.5 ton nuclear warhead to any point in China.



India is to testfire the Agni-5, a missile with a range of over 5000 km, within a year.



Revealing this, DRDO chief Dr VK Saraswat said that testing and evaluation of the sub-systems of the Agni-5 were on and the flight trial of the missile which looks identical to the Agni-3 and approaches ICBM capability would be conducted "within a year".



The missile marks the culmination of the Agni series of strategic missiles Dr Saraswat said.



He denied that India had any programme to build a full-scale Intercontinental Ballistic Missile (ICBM)-missiles with ranges in excess of 5500 km.



India Today





Gurus what is your opinion on this? isn't the AGNI 3SL suppose to be have a range of 8500kms? did anyone has any update on this?

[ramana]

Wings of Fire calls a missile with 5500km as ICBM. So they are stuck with that definition. At same time they have he need for heavy payload to deter challengers. So what is the 1.5t payload about? If they can make do with lighter payload then their definitions will be compatible with other nations.

[Arun_S]

Rudra: The Agni-3SL range will be pretty close to what is projected in this article:

[url="http://www.indiaresearch.org/WayToACredibleDeterrent.pdf"]

WAY TO A CREDIBLE DETERRENT

© Arun Vishwakarma[/url]



[url="http://www.indiaresearch.org/WayToACredibleDeterrent.pdf"]http://www.indiarese...leDeterrent.pdf[/url]



For 8,500 km range the payload is only 700Kg, and if that payload is anything but Thermonuclear, its deterrence value is puny.



BARC failed India by not demonstrating a high yield weapon during the last opportunity that India had to test nukes, and full clearance given by political system to test to their heart's content. Given their track record of 1974 and 1998, their design on paper (and fix on paper) does not inspire confidence to lay observer, much less countries that need deterred.



To substitute for BARC's failure (non-performance) India has to field 5 to 10 times more missiles of Agni-3 class, unless DRDO is asked to make bigger class of missile that is 3 times heavier than Agni-3. One can understand the handicap armed forces will face with such a heavy missile. Since such big missiles can-NOT be submarine launched, the only way to circumvent BARC's failure is to field 5 to 10 times more nuclear powered submarines.

[size="1"]Agni-3SL and Sagarika - Range v.s. warhead and its destructive power[/size]



[size="1"]Copyright: Arun Vishwakarma[/size]

As for 3 stage of 2 m diameter that I called as Agni-3A configuration, and what DRDO now calls as Agni-V, the range with 1,500 kg payload will be ~8,100 km. Of course with 1,500 Kg payload plus decoys it could be just 5,500 km.



The postulated Agni-3B configuration maintains same outer size as Agni-3A but has an additional "SUM" (Small Upper Stage) stage in the nose cone that makes it a full range (Full-scale).



But isnt that term used by Shri Saraswat here:

He denied that India had any programme to build a [color="#0000ff"]full-scale[/color] Intercontinental Ballistic Missile (ICBM)-missiles with ranges in excess of 5500 km.

[laltaputu]

[quote name='Chandragupta' date='27 May 2010 - 06:35 PM' timestamp='1274965027' post='106595']

Sorry for my late reply,but unfortunately I cant have moving lips on Agni-2 series at this point of time.And this is what I told to another highly respected member on this forum.



But I can assure you that your wishes does got wings.Later is all depends on your understanding of my statement.











[/quote]



Chandragupta

I got it i was a little overenthusiastic about AGNI 2AT

but

from this link image

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_S1Gu2hX9S6c/StO1CP...00/eqw.jpg

from

http://weapons.technology.youngester.com...obile.html



it says that AGNI 2AT at 1.2m dia will have a 4000km range with 1500kg payload



all the missiles of agni series in this image seems to be the exact specification with ARUN S description of the agni series.

so what is your understanding about this

[babbupandey]

So let me get this straight, the missile scientists are being forced to make their missiles more accurate/lethal because they need to either carry little weight to farther distance or more weight to a smaller distance?

This is, I think, good because the missiles are deadlier compared to the rest.

However, the timidness of GOI makes my blood to a boil. If indeed the tests were a failure, then they should go ahead and test another batch - it assumes all the more importance because of "no-first-use" doctrine.

[Arun_S]

[quote name='laltaputu' date='04 June 2010 - 11:46 PM' timestamp='1275674927' post='106735']

Chandragupta

I got it i was a little overenthusiastic about AGNI 2AT

but

from this link image

[url="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_S1Gu2hX9S6c/StO1CPCiOEI/AAAAAAAAOks/5MIJaSiNVGw/s800/eqw.jpg"]http://lh6.ggpht.com...Gw/s800/eqw.jpg[/url]

from

[url="http://weapons.technology.youngester.com/2009/10/agni-v-going-mobile.html"]http://weapons.techn...ing-mobile.html[/url]



it says that AGNI 2AT at 1.2m dia will have a 4000km range with 1500kg payload



all the missiles of agni series in this image seems to be the exact specification with ARUN S description of the agni series.

so what is your understanding about this

[/quote]



Yes all of these drawing use exactly the same information and dimension as my original that I used to previously host on BR (just rendered in 3 D in these images), and now not available on web. (Some day ti will show up again on my website).

[Arun_S]

[quote name='babbup' date='09 June 2010 - 02:19 AM' timestamp='1276029671' post='106800']

So let me get this straight, the missile scientists are being forced to make their missiles more accurate/lethal because they need to either carry little weight to farther distance or more weight to a smaller distance?[/quote]

Correct.

This is, I think, good because the missiles are deadlier compared to the rest.

What do you mean? In my view there is nothing good for India in this setting.



BARC's big bums with little Oomph makes it very expensive for India to field a credible deterrence; because India need 5-10 time more warheads and accordingly those many time more missiles / submarines to deliver required Kilo-tonnage yield on target; further those missiles need to be 3 time bigger (heavier) to be able to deliver those heavy warhead payload to full range so that deterrence can be projected to any nation that cares or dares to challenge Indian security.

However, the timidness of GOI makes my blood to a boil. If indeed the tests were a failure, then they should go ahead and test another batch - it assumes all the more importance because of "no-first-use" doctrine.

Boil it does !

[HareKrishna]

10 more underground tests are needed

and 10 times more missles

and storage of light weapons for civilians in case of need(other countries have such storages)

[Arun_S]

[url="http://idrw.org/?p=1983"]Akash Mk-2 will become Akash EX (Extended Range Mk-II)[/url]

: IDRW NEWS NETWORK Initial work on Akash MK-2 has begun ,and the new missiles system will be [url=""]fielded[/url] within next two years by DRDO , earlier plans was to have Akash mk-2 with range up to 50 to 60km but those plans have been curtailed to bring in only extended range Akash with marginal [url=""]increase[/url] in range of 10 to 15 km from its current range of 20 to25 km .



This probably has been done to avoid two different long range missiles in [url=""]Army[/url] and Air force arsenal , DRDO and IAI of Israel have already developed Barak-II (Barak with range of 70km for navy and work on land based version will also be developed soon ,so its logical to work on Barak-II which will be long range interceptor missile for all three forces while Akash MK-1 and MK-2 will be Medium range surface to air interceptor missile for both army and air force .



Barak-2 has been recently been tested in Tel Aviv successfully and further testing will be held in India later this year .



While DRDO will be working with French for the short range Low Level Quick Reaction Missile (LLQRM) know has MAITRI , which will have [url=""]technology[/url] developed for Trishul LLQRM TDP (technology Demonstrator Project) and will have range of 8 to 15km and will be used by all three defence forces of India.



DRDO will also be developing more advance version of the Rajendra BSR (Battery Surveillance Radar) which is PESA radar, while Akash Mk-2 will have a Rajendra derivative AESA radar to perform the same role, AESA radar will give it better tracking, and [url=""]engagement[/url] functions. Work on AESA variant has begun and almost nearing completion.



DRDO expects to increase the range of Akash by using using better composite booster with lengthened booster section to achieve the [url=""]desired[/url] range.



This will be the Roles of Surface to Air missile in Indian Armed Force



MAITRI (LLQRM) 8-15 km Quick reaction short range Air to Surface missile



Akash MK-1 /MK-2 (MR-SAM) 20-25 /35 km Medium range Air to Surface missile



Barak-2 ( LRSAM) 70km Long Range Air to Surface missile



While all three missile systems will have different roles in Indian Armed force and will be inducted by all three forces ,only Akash MK-1/2 will not see service in Indian Navy .