[quote name='Arun_S' date='08 June 2010 - 09:29 PM' timestamp='1276046481' post='106804']
What do you mean? In my view there is nothing good for India in this setting.
Boil it does !
[/quote]
What I meant was that it is forcing Indian scientists to develop more accurate missiles than the rest of the world. So, it is good if seen from the perspective of missile development.
06-13-2010, 10:09 AM
(This post was last modified: 06-13-2010, 10:11 AM by Arun_S.)
[quote name='babbup' date='13 June 2010 - 03:21 AM' timestamp='1276378986' post='106868']
What I meant was that it is forcing Indian scientists to develop more accurate missiles than the rest of the world. So, it is good if seen from the perspective of missile development.
[/quote]
Indian policy of "Second strike" (I.e. no first strike) means its second strike is not counter force (against specific military targets) but counter-value (against the opposing state in general, including population centers).
So after the CEP improves from 20 km to 200 meter, there is no substitute to warhead yield. Additional improved accuracy is only useful for counter force attack (a.k.a), something that is against Indian policy as well beyond Indian capability in terms of number of warheads and military might (or depth). First Strike anyway make no sense for a country that is not capable of second strike; and for second strike one must be able to inflict huge damage against enemy population at large. That requires delivering warheads that can level certain number of square kilometers of enemy population centers, doing that via:
1. fewer numbers of high yield warheads delivered with accuracy of ~ 400 meter
OR
2. many times more lower yield warheads delivered with accuracy of ~ 200 meter (this is a very expensive economic proposition)
Making missiles super precise does not mitigate requirement of requiring many times more lower yield warheads.
With limited qty of lower yield warheads making missiles even more reliable (and ABM counter measure) becomes a prime necessity (again a high cost proposition). Now India is far for being a rich country and Indian defense force budget continues to be puny and constrained.
[quote name='Arun_S' date='13 June 2010 - 12:47 AM' timestamp='1276403993' post='106873']
Indian policy of "Second strike" (I.e. no first strike) means its second strike is not counter force (against specific military targets) but counter-value (against the opposing state in general, including population centers).
So after the CEP improves from 20 km to 200 meter, there is no substitute to warhead yield. Additional improved accuracy is only useful for counter force attack (a.k.a), something that is against Indian policy as well beyond Indian capability in terms of number of warheads and military might (or depth). First Strike anyway make no sense for a country that is not capable of second strike; and for second strike one must be able to inflict huge damage against enemy population at large. That requires delivering warheads that can level certain number of square kilometers of enemy population centers, doing that via:
1. fewer numbers of high yield warheads delivered with accuracy of ~ 400 meter
OR
2. many times more lower yield warheads delivered with accuracy of ~ 200 meter (this is a very expensive economic proposition)
Making missiles super precise does not mitigate requirement of requiring many times more lower yield warheads.
With limited qty of lower yield warheads making missiles even more reliable (and ABM counter measure) becomes a prime necessity (again a high cost proposition). Now India is far for being a rich country and Indian defense force budget continues to be puny and constrained.
[/quote]
Point taken.
[url="http://beta.thehindu.com/todays-paper/article455965.ece"]Nag hits moving target[/url]
I think it's worth sharing. BTW; I was looking for some information about IIR seekers, and could not find anything worthwhile (and free). If somebody can post a link/small article it will be informative to all the members.
[url="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/6061548.cms?prtpage=1"]
Prithvi-II successfully test-fired off Orissa coast[/url] Quote: Jun 18, 2010,
BALASORE: India on Friday successfully test-fired its indigenously developed, nuclear-capable, ballistic missile Prithvi-II from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur, about 15 km from here off the Orissa coast.
The missile mounted on a mobile launcher was blasted off from the launch complex-3 in the ITR at around 6:50am, defence sources said.
"The trial of Prithvi-II, conducted by the Army, has gone through nicely," ITR director S P Dash said.
With a maximum striking range of 350 km, Prithvi-II is capable of carrying a pay-load of 500 kg.
The test firing of the surface-to-surface missile, which has already been inducted into Indian armed forces, was a users trial by the Army's specialised group "strategic force command" (SFC), the sources said.
Prithvi, the first ballistic missile developed under the country's prestigious Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme (IGMDP), is propelled by liquid propulsion twin engine.
With a length of nine metre and one metre diameter, Prithvi-II uses an advanced inertial guidance system with manoeuvring trajectory.
The entire trajectory of Friday's trial was tracked by a battery of sophisticated radars and electro-optic telemetry stations positioned in different locations for the post-launch analysis, the sources said.
The trial was conducted in the presence of Army officials and scientists as part of an exercise to well acquaint the personnel with various aspects of the sophisticated missile, they said.
The last trial of the Prithvi-II missile was successfully conducted from the same site on March 27, 2010.
The rather frequent test of Prithvi, and abysmally lesser Agni-II test frequency is telling.
What to talk of A3 .
For deterrence one needs "payload yield and missile range" to deter anybody.
The scenario looks grim. The A2 failed last time, there has not been any retest of A3. PAD/AAD test too had failed last time. I think DRDO needs to perform some yagna to ward off evil eye <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='  ' />
08-06-2010, 01:32 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-06-2010, 01:39 PM by Arun_S.)
Looks like Agni-II AT predicted by yours truly many years ago, will actually see daylight <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='  ' />
What will be interesting is if the name "Agni-3 SL" that I coined and since then almost become the defacto public/government name of the 2 meter diameter missile for Indian Nuclear submarines;
Will Agni-II AT have similar luck in public acceptance? time will tell.
[url="http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article553723.ece"]Agni II to be tested in Sep[/url][url="http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article553723.ece"]tember[/url]
Quote:
T. S. Subramanian
A [size="4"][color="#0000ff"]ââ¬Åtotally new missile,ââ¬Â called Agni II[/color][/size] ââ¬â is to be tested in September from the Wheeler Island, off the Orissa coast.
Developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), Agni II ââ¬â has two stages and both are powered by solid propellants. ââ¬ÅIt has several advanced technologies,ââ¬Â sources in the DRDO said.
The missile, which can carry nuclear warheads, can be transported by both rail and road. Its range is between 2,750 and 3,000 km. It will thus fill the gap between Agni II, which can cover about 2,500 km, and Agni III that has a range of about 3,500 km. Agni I can hit enemy targets 700 km away. While Agni II and Agni III are two-stage missiles, Agni I is a single-stage one. All are capable of carrying nuclear warheads.
The Agni series have proved the re-entry technology developed by the DRDO. When the missile re-enters the atmosphere from the vacuum of space, the nuclear warhead has to be protected from intense heat.
[quote name='Arun_S' date='06 August 2010 - 12:10 AM' timestamp='1281081745' post='107785']
Looks like Agni-II AT predicted by yours truly many years ago, will actually see daylight <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=' ' />
What will be interesting is if the name "Agni-3 SL" that I coined and since then almost become the defacto public/government name of the 2 meter diameter missile for Indian Nuclear submarines;
Will Agni-II AT have similar luck in public acceptance? time will tell.
[url="http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article553723.ece"]Agni II to be tested in Sep[/url][url="http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article553723.ece"]tember[/url]
[b]
[/quote]
You were correct and congratulations for that.
Arun, a member of this forum (Austin) has correctly stated on another forum that the Shourya is and can be readily modified into a ASBM. BW, where does the Dhanush fit into the Indian doctrine? Does it have a land attack or an ASBM role? If so, its range is too short and places the launch vessel in peril of attacks from shore based fighters. Why on earth can't the IN use the Shourya in a credible ASBM role? I believe it could also be used in the ship-based land attack role from ranges more than twice that of the Dhanush.
For deploying the Shourya on ships, does one require the cumbursome Dhanush-like launcher (the roll stabilized one), or can the Shourya be placed on the larger frigates, destroyers, and even the carriers in launch cannisters and/or VLS's? This would result in a pretty formidable weapon.
08-07-2010, 12:10 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-07-2010, 12:12 PM by Arun_S.)
[quote name='qubit' date='07 August 2010 - 10:20 AM' timestamp='1281156153' post='107797']
Arun, a member of this forum (Austin) has correctly stated on another forum that the Shourya is and can be readily modified into a ASBM. BW, where does the Dhanush fit into the Indian doctrine? Does it have a land attack or an ASBM role? If so, its range is too short and places the launch vessel in peril of attacks from shore based fighters. Why on earth can't the IN use the Shourya in a credible ASBM role? I believe it could also be used in the ship-based land attack role from ranges more than twice that of the Dhanush.[/quote]
Qubit guru,
Dhanush I believe is the launcher system. The arrow on teh Dhanush started with liquid fueled "Prithvi" missile, that was also called Dhanush to confuz the barbaric. Liquid fueled ship bourn missile of 350 km range is a sure give away, that it is to keep seat warm the for real one (a.k.a MMS). Prithvi based Dhanush will fade away (just like MMS time pass) and I would expect Shourya based Dhanush to take force deployment.
As for Shourya for ASBM, that terminology does not make sense to me because Shourya in hypersonic cruise profile is more suitable (higher chances of success) for taking on a carrier battle group, that for sure will have some form of ABM defense umbrella. Unlike BM, there is currently no cure for hypersonic maneuvering cruise missile. Shourya/Sagarika class missile require a new designation like ASHCM (Anti Ship Hyper Cruise Missile). {Fir a carrier battle group an ASBM is easier to defend}
Quote:For deploying the Shourya on ships, does one require the cumbursome Dhanush-like launcher (the roll stabilized one), or can the Shourya be placed on the larger frigates, destroyers, and even the carriers in launch cannisters and/or VLS's? This would result in a pretty formidable weapon.
Correct, Shourya based Dhanush is only required for small ships (E.g Sukanya class petrol vessels) that tend to experience much higher roll, compared to bigger ships. Thus canister based frigates/destroyers deployment is more likely.
[quote name='Arun_S' date='06 August 2010 - 10:48 PM' timestamp='1281163217' post='107798']
As for Shourya for ASBM, that terminology does not make sense to me because Shourya in hypersonic cruise profile is more suitable (higher chances of success) for taking on a carrier battle group, that for sure will have some form of ABM defense umbrella.
[/quote]
Arun,
Pardon my mistaking the Dhanush for the liquid fuelled Prithvi. BTW, isn't it hazardous for ships (especially smaller ones like frigates) to carry a liquid fuelled Prithvi on board? About ASBM's, in any case definiing the DF-21 or the Shaurya is a misnomer of sorts since they are both quasi-ballistic missiles which follow a sub-orbital ballistic trajectory. Thus, a more appropriate name would be ASqBM (where the "q" stands for "quasi-"). Finally, how much work would be required to place a maneouvering RV (MaRV) onto a Shaurya? More specifically, can a scaled down version of the Agni 2 RV be placed on the Shaurya within a reasonable time duration. Note that "reasonable time duration" is defined within the context of normal time conscious persons and not DRDO's definition.
Couple of things to discuss.
-Impacts of declaring the Prithvi as conventional only, now that there are alternate nuke delivery platforms.
- The meaning and impact of the realization that the Agni and Shourya series are hypersonic boost glide vehicles on the deterrent posture. While considering this take into account that modern urban structures are multi-storied concrete structures as opposed to Hiroshima structures and more densely located than in earlier times.
08-11-2010, 12:01 AM
(This post was last modified: 08-11-2010, 12:06 AM by Arun_S.)
[quote name='qubit' date='09 August 2010 - 07:31 PM' timestamp='1281361998' post='107819']
About ASBM's, in any case definiing the DF-21 or the Shaurya is a misnomer of sorts since they are both quasi-ballistic missiles which follow a sub-orbital ballistic trajectory. Thus, a more appropriate name would be ASqBM (where the "q" stands for "quasi-"). [/quote]
IMHO an even better name would be ASBCM (Ballistic & Cruise).
Clearly except some ICBM's all BM follow sub-orbital ballistic trajectory.
Quote:Finally, how much work would be required to place a maneouvering RV (MaRV) onto a Shaurya? More specifically, can a scaled down version of the Agni 2 RV be placed on the Shaurya within a reasonable time duration. Note that "reasonable time duration" is defined within the context of normal time conscious persons and not DRDO's definition.
This is a very important observation, one that needs widest dissemination.
Hypersonic cruise rocketry is one of the few Indian forte that other countries do not have.
To cover for weakness in nuclear weapons (thanks to [color="#9932cc"]chappal pooj'ya[/color] [color="#4169e1"]R Chidambram[/color] and his cronies), and doctrine of possesing handful of missile (thanks to [color="#4169e1"]Sewadar Singh's[/color] doctrine of "Minimum Credible Deterrence" instead of "Credible Minimum Deterrence"), India should thus play its strength in hypersonic cruise to field all missiles with Ballistic Glide RV's (BGRV's). BGRV's are not only hardest to detect and counter, but also provide 1,000 to 4,000 Km additional range (something that skinny Indian missiles with short legs can immensely benefit, given they have to carry a low performance high density and heavy N payload (thanks to RC).
Shourya/Sagarika can clearly be used in all 3 modes:
- As pure BM its range for 500 kg payload : 1,200 Km
- As pure Hypersonic Cruise missile for 1000 Kg payload: ~ 700 km
- Full range (compound) Ballistic and Hypersonic Cruise missile for 500 Kg payload: : ~ 2,000 Km.
The the last 2 modes it will serve well to have the an independent BGRV at its tip that separates from the the last stage (that serves as reservoir of kinetic energy during the Hypersonic cruise phase) when the missile arrives with in 200 km of target area.
Agni-2AT that will hopefully be unveiled next month, is expected to be manufactured in large quantity to become the mainstay of Indian N deterrence. { India has only handful of Agni-II in-spite of >10 years since first launch}
The 1.3 m diameter Agni-2AT could carry a nose faring to carry the single RV along with penetration aids.
- For 1,000 Kg payload range will be > 4,000 Km, and
- for 600 Kg payload > 6,000 km
[quote name='Arun_S' date='10 August 2010 - 10:39 AM' timestamp='1281465087' post='107841']
IMHO an even better name would be ASBCM (Ballistic & Cruise).
Clearly except some ICBM's all BM follow sub-orbital ballistic trajectory.
This is a very important observation, one that needs widest dissemination.
Hypersonic cruise rocketry is one of the few Indian forte that other countries do not have.
To cover for weakness in nuclear weapons (thanks to [color="#9932cc"]chappal pooj'ya[/color] [color="#4169e1"]R Chidambram[/color] and his cronies), and doctrine of possesing handful of missile (thanks to [color="#4169e1"]Sewadar Singh's[/color] doctrine of "Minimum Credible Deterrence" instead of "Credible Minimum Deterrence"), India should thus play its strength in hypersonic cruise to field all missiles with Ballistic Glide RV's (BGRV's). BGRV's are not only hardest to detect and counter, but also provide 1,000 to 4,000 Km additional range (something that skinny Indian missiles with short legs can immensely benefit, given they have to carry a low performance high density and heavy N payload (thanks to RC).
Shourya/Sagarika can clearly be used in all 3 modes:
- As pure BM its range for 500 kg payload : 1,200 Km
- As pure Hypersonic Cruise missile for 1000 Kg payload: ~ 700 km
- Full range (compound) Ballistic and Hypersonic Cruise missile for 500 Kg payload: : ~ 2,000 Km.
The the last 2 modes it will serve well to have the an independent BGRV at its tip that separates from the the last stage (that serves as reservoir of kinetic energy during the Hypersonic cruise phase) when the missile arrives with in 200 km of target area.
[/quote]
Frankly Arun, the Shaurya is one concept that has a multitude of extensions. I'm really happy that the Indians have been among the first to develop this missile. My concern is that it will not be deployed in cannister form in sufficient numbers. IMHO, one way to look at the A-2 RV and the one proposed above for the Shaurya is that it (the RV) will fulfill/validate certain flight regimes of the proposed Avatar.
Arun, BRF member Jaladipc wrote:
Quote:the three sucessfull tests of the hypersonic cruise missile,we validated different parameters including thermal stability at different hypersonic speeds,manueverability with different warhead configerations and types with high accuracy in what your call as CEP(circular error probablity).The confidental team which planned for a unique testing of an unique missile discovered an distint potential of the missile.Tested with an entirely different guidance and seeker,the missile offers an unique advantage in its surgical strike role with a speed of over Mach 5 at over 2100km range.Its intelligent flight control and guidance system plans its own flight path to evade air defences of enemies.This established the missiles extreme manueverability at extreme speeds.The buyoant team is exploring the possibilities of integrating the missile onboard a naval ship.Recently the navy envinced its interest in the missile as a possible option for its P-15B destroyers for long range strike role.After the navy`s interest plans are underway to accomodate a 4 number missiles into a quad canister.Depending on the availability of space,the number of quad packs that go onto the ships will be determined.
Quote:Yes the team was so proud of...............
developing such an unique system which can now be put into production for strategic nuclear command and navy on the same lines of Brahmos except the fact that this one is nuclear capable.We are currently exploring the possibility of putting it into serial production from 2013 after few more tests of both nuclear warhead carrying varriants and surgical strike role ones.
Masha-llah  hock: hock:
I think its the shourya is slowly being unveiled.
BTW the FSU had a class of missiles called aero-ballistic missiles.
Arunji,
1. By payload do you mean RV mass or RV mass+pen aids mass +guidance system mass ? The latter is called throw weight.
2. DRDO newsletter, May 2010 talks of a new solid propellant plant at Nasik for motors upto 1.5m dia. VK Saraswat recently spoke of a project of canisterized A-II variant. Could the new A-II be a new canistarized missile of 1.5m dia, shorter length but same performance of A-IIAT ?
3. Why A-IIAT when A-III is a more capable missile ready for induction ? Readying up A-IIAT (three tests for IOC) takes at least 2 more yrs. They shld focus on A-III induct it and do 2 user trials quickly by the end of the yr....What say ?
4. From what I hear, one should not call S-1 "RC's dud". RC, from what I hear, is a crystallographer who has nothing to do with actual work in the weapons field. He however jumped into this bandwagon to geta Bharat Ratna for himself. Needless to say, it is RC who is mainly responsible for the cover up of the incompleteness of S-1. All this is, however what I hear and nothing more.
[quote name='ramana' date='10 August 2010 - 06:27 PM' timestamp='1281493167' post='107849']
Masha-llah hock: hock:
I think its the shourya is slowly being unveiled.
BTW the FSU had a class of missiles called aero-ballistic missiles.
[/quote]
It indeed does appear to be one version of the Shaurya. Let's hope they can serial produce it ASAP. BTW, the Russian Iskandar too follows the same principles of the Shaurya. However, its guidance system and heat resistant materials are substantially less capable than those of the Shaurya, and it has much shorter legs too!
[quote name='Kritavarma' date='11 August 2010 - 10:17 AM' timestamp='1281501558' post='107850']
Arunji,
1. By payload do you mean RV mass or RV mass+pen aids mass +guidance system mass ? The latter is called throw weight.
[/quote]
In my postings I have used the term payload to mean throw-weight, in future would try to distinguish it.
Ramana,
Thanks for the good news. Please convey my thnx to Jaladipc . I always wonder why they are doing the missile tests in secret. Since it is explicitly saying hypersonic cruise missile is it really shaurya or hsdtv? shaurya is not a cruise missile, is it? isnt shaurya quasi ballistic missile?
I think Arunji Chandraguptaji would be better persons to clarify this.
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