Indian Navy news and discussion

[laltaputu]

will the indian build scorpenes have X-rudders so they can can be used more effectively in loitering missions

if IN orders MESMA from the third ship 4 scopenes with MESMA can definitely be useful

[Guest]

The scorpenes don't have the "X" rudders. They have the conventional "+" rudders.

I wonder if MESMA is included in the contract. The contract is uduly expensive. Makes one wonder if it is the scorpene that are being built.



Now a Scorpene + Nuclear reactor = Rubis class. Both the scorpene and the rubis seem to have nearly the same general design and dimensions/



Brazil has ordered 4 scorpenes, and a fifth scorpene is supposedly the one to get a nuclear reactor for propulsion.



I wonder if India is getting nuclear propulsion for the scorpene too.

[laltaputu]

[quote name='Gagan' date='05 June 2010 - 03:51 PM' timestamp='1275732789' post='106751']



Now a Scorpene + Nuclear reactor = Rubis class. Both the scorpene and the rubis seem to have nearly the same general design and dimensions/



Brazil has ordered 4 scorpenes, and a fifth scorpene is supposedly the one to get a nuclear reactor for propulsion.



I wonder if India is getting nuclear propulsion for the scorpene too.

[/quote]



Nuclear propulsion for the scorpene seems highly unlikely

but scorpenes should come with AIP it may be MESMA or other Hydrogen fuel cell like in U-214

by the way

any news about the second line of SSK after the scorpenes

IN need subs quickly

[ravicv]

The Russians have made a Klub fit into a cargo container carried by container carrying "civilian" vessels:



http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htsurf/20100414.aspx



http://en.rian.ru/video/20100526/159164595.html



Can't the Indians do the same with the BrahMos and mount the containers on cargo vessels carrying the Indian flag? This is literally a "wolf in sheep's clothing".

The same principle could also serve for the Shourya. with some modifications.

[ravicv]

[quote name='laltaputu' date='05 June 2010 - 10:53 PM' timestamp='1275806756' post='106773']

Nuclear propulsion for the scorpene seems highly unlikely

but scorpenes should come with AIP it may be MESMA or other Hydrogen fuel cell like in U-214

by the way

any news about the second line of SSK after the scorpenes

IN need subs quickly

[/quote]



Look's like the IN Scorpenes will have MESMA. But then, one never really knows. Perhaps the massive price hike for the Scorpenes is intended to include sensors for the Arihant class......

[Guest]

[url="http://www.hindustantimes.com/Southern-naval-command-chief-dies-in-accidental-firing/H1-Article1-568668.aspx"]Southern naval command chief dies in 'accidental firing'[/url]

The Indian Navy's southern command chief, Rear Admiral J S Jamwal (51), died in a "freak firing incident" at INS Dhronacharya in Kochi, on Kerala coast. This is the first time such a senior officer was killed in an "accidental firing". According to a Navy spokesman in Kochi the Admiral received a single bullet injury on his head while inspecting a pistol at the shooting range of the ship around 10.30 in the morning. Ruling out any foul play he said the Navy has ordered a high-level probe into this.



He refused to divulge details how the incident happened and what type of pistol the Admiral inspected. Soon after the incident he was rushed to a private hospital where he was declared brought dead.

However, top sources in the police claimed that it was a suicide.



"After firing two rounds at the target he fired the third behind his temple," a senior police officer who preferred anonymity told the Hindustan Times. "True, the Navy cannot portray it as a suicide. It may affect the morale of the force. Such a senior officer who is specialised in training and commando operations will never met with a such an end," he added.



But the Navy stoutly denied this. "There are many speculations doing the rounds. A senior officer, if he wants to commit suicide he shouldn't have chosen the firing range. Please don't drag the decorated officer in unnecessary controversies," Commodore Ajaya Kumar said in a press conference in Kochi.



A resident of Jammu the Admiral is survived by his wife Geetha Jamwal and two children. An illustrious officer the Admiral was commissioned in the Executive Branch of the Indian Navy as a Surface Warfare Officer in 1980 and had specialized in anti-submarine warfare (ASW) and commando training

[ravicv]

[quote name='Mudy' date='07 July 2010 - 07:56 AM' timestamp='1278517680' post='107357']

[url="http://www.hindustantimes.com/Southern-naval-command-chief-dies-in-accidental-firing/H1-Article1-568668.aspx"]Southern naval command chief dies in 'accidental firing'[/url]

[/quote]



Attributing the late Rear Adm. Jamwal's unfortunate death to suicide is tantamount to treason and criminal defamation. Who are these so-called "top sources" and why don't they come out in the open instead of cowering behind quislings that comprise a vast section of the Indian press?

[ramana]

During WWI the British equipped a class of merchant ships with guns and called them Q-Ships which were used for anti-sub warfare.

[Naresh]

[quote name='qubit' date='07 July 2010 - 12:38 PM' timestamp='1278486042' post='107352']

The Russians have made a Klub fit into a cargo container carried by container carrying "civilian" vessels:



http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htsurf/20100414.aspx



http://en.rian.ru/video/20100526/159164595.html



Can't the Indians do the same with the BrahMos and mount the containers on cargo vessels carrying the Indian flag? This is literally a "wolf in sheep's clothing".

The same principle could also serve for the Shourya. with some modifications.

[/quote]



qubit Ji :



You will note that the "Container Vessel" carrying the "Klub Missile System " will then become a Warship and thus cannot Dock at a normal Container Terminal to Load or Discharge its Boxes.



The Technical Term for a Mercantile Cargo Ship carrying Guns or Missiles would be an AMC i.e. Armed Merchant Cruiser, which, is acceptable in the Time of War but not during Peace Time.



Cheers

[Naresh]

[quote name='ramana' date='08 July 2010 - 02:01 AM' timestamp='1278534192' post='107361']

During WWI the British equipped a class of merchant ships with guns and called them Q-Ships which were used for anti-sub warfare.

[/quote]



ramana Ji :



The Q-Ships were actually meant for Anti-Submarine Warfare as the German and Japanese Submarines would "surface" to what seemed to be innocent Cargo Vessels but would get a suitable "response" from the Concealed Weapons on Board the Q-Ship.



When the vessel carries Armament on her Deck or on "Islands" (part of the super-structure) then they are termed as an AMC.



I do not know how a Missile would be fired from a Container as one does not know as to how the "Exhaust" would be countered.



Cheers

[ravicv]

[quote name='Naresh' date='30 July 2010 - 06:30 AM' timestamp='1280499768' post='107693']

qubit Ji :



You will note that the "Container Vessel" carrying the "Klub Missile System " will then become a Warship and thus cannot Dock at a normal Container Terminal to Load or Discharge its Boxes.



The Technical Term for a Mercantile Cargo Ship carrying Guns or Missiles would be an AMC i.e. Armed Merchant Cruiser, which, is acceptable in the Time of War but not during Peace Time.



Cheers

[/quote]



What you're saying is fine theoretically, but the legal/administrative hurdles can be overcome. Without getting into details, there's compelling evidence that at least one Nation is using its cargo ships in this manner, with another Nation showing signs of following suit. BTW, please cut out the "Ji" bit.

[ravicv]

Here's a readable study on CM's which includes stowage in cargo ship containers:



http://www.marshall.org/pdf/materials/522.pdf





This is a discussion on the use of container carriers for military purposes:



http://www.globalpolitician.com/2596-china-taiwan

[Naresh]

[quote name='qubit' date='31 July 2010 - 08:03 AM' timestamp='1280543129' post='107699']

What you're saying is fine theoretically, but the legal/administrative hurdles can be overcome. Without getting into details, there's compelling evidence that at least one Nation is using its cargo ships in this manner, with another Nation showing signs of following suit. BTW, please cut out the "Ji" bit.

[/quote]



1. Can any Container Ship can carry a Cruise or other Missile surreptitiously in a Container? : [color="#FF0000"][size="6"]YES[/size][/color]



2. In this case the “Missile” is not declared as part of the Ship’s Cargo.



3. If “Detected” then the Consequences : NOT NEED TO PUT IT IN WORDS



4. Thus, for the sake of discussion, a Cruise Missile can be “Packed” into an FEU and stored on board any Dry Cargo Ship as many ships carry “Emergency Generators” stowed on a part of the Ship’s Deck or even on the Hatch Covers.



However :



AA : It cannot be “Landed” at any port except in the case of a Terrorist dominated Region - Country - Port.



BB : It cannot be “Launched” from on board the ship E X C E P T if the ship is especially adapted which adaptation cannot be “hidden” or even camouflaged.



There are easier ways to deliver a Cruise Missile in any part of the World – so long as it has a Coastline and may be – I have no knowledge about it and can only speculate – by a “Heavy Lift Aircraft” with far more ease than by a Container ship.



Cheers

[ravicv]

[quote name='Naresh' date='31 July 2010 - 10:15 AM' timestamp='1280599620' post='107703']

1. Can any Container Ship can carry a Cruise or other Missile surreptitiously in a Container? : [color="#FF0000"][size="6"]YES[/size][/color]



2. In this case the “Missile” is not declared as part of the Ship’s Cargo.



3. If “Detected” then the Consequences : NOT NEED TO PUT IT IN WORDS



4. Thus, for the sake of discussion, a Cruise Missile can be “Packed” into an FEU and stored on board any Dry Cargo Ship as many ships carry “Emergency Generators” stowed on a part of the Ship’s Deck or even on the Hatch Covers.



However :



AA : It cannot be “Landed” at any port except in the case of a Terrorist dominated Region - Country - Port.



BB : It cannot be “Launched” from on board the ship E X C E P T if the ship is especially adapted which adaptation cannot be “hidden” or even camouflaged.



There are easier ways to deliver a Cruise Missile in any part of the World – so long as it has a Coastline and may be – I have no knowledge about it and can only speculate – by a “Heavy Lift Aircraft” with far more ease than by a Container ship.



Cheers

[/quote]



As a partial reply, just count the number of cargo ships capable of carrying a few containers plying the oceans at any given instant of time and count the number of "Heavy Lift Aircraft" airborne at any given instant of time. The former outnumbers the latter by many orders of magnitude. So, which do you think would carry the greater degree of surprise and which would push surveillance requirements to the brink?

[Naresh]

[quote name='qubit' date='01 August 2010 - 01:15 PM' timestamp='1280648263' post='107708']

As a partial reply, just count the number of cargo ships capable of carrying a few containers plying the oceans at any given instant of time and count the number of "Heavy Lift Aircraft" airborne at any given instant of time. The former outnumbers the latter by many orders of magnitude. So, which do you think would carry the greater degree of surprise and which would push surveillance requirements to the brink?

[/quote]



Agreed, that these Ships in their Hundreds, if not Thousands, will be carrying Cruise or Other Missiles amongst their Cargoes of Containers or on Decks of Ships carrying other Cargoes of the Dry variety.



As such the following quarries come to mind :



1. How will they deliver these Cruise or Other Missile(s) especially the Container as well as other Dry Bulk Ships as they are GEARLESS?



OR



2. Will they “Launch” them whilst at Sea to wreak Death and Destruction to the “Nominated Enemy.”



OR



3. Will they remain Constantly at Sea?



OR



4. If they are to perform their Primary Task to Load - Discharge their Normal Cargoes at the various Ports of their Voyage-Itinerary how will they be able to Enter these Port(s)?



I look forward to your enlightening reply.



NOTE : I do not discount or challenge the premise that various types of Merchant Vessels can be “Equipped” with Cruise or Other Missiles.



Cheers

[ravicv]

[quote name='Naresh' date='01 August 2010 - 02:18 AM' timestamp='1280657423' post='107709']

Agreed, that these Ships in their Hundreds, if not Thousands, will be carrying Cruise or Other Missiles amongst their Cargoes of Containers or on Decks of Ships carrying other Cargoes of the Dry variety.



As such the following quarries come to mind :



1. How will they deliver these Cruise or Other Missile(s) especially the Container as well as other Dry Bulk Ships as they are GEARLESS?



OR



2. Will they “Launch” them whilst at Sea to wreak Death and Destruction to the “Nominated Enemy.”



OR



3. Will they remain Constantly at Sea?



OR



4. If they are to perform their Primary Task to Load - Discharge their Normal Cargoes at the various Ports of their Voyage-Itinerary how will they be able to Enter these Port(s)?



I look forward to your enlightening reply.



NOTE : I do not discount or challenge the premise that various types of Merchant Vessels can be “Equipped” with Cruise or Other Missiles.



Cheers

[/quote]



Naresh,



A partial reply. If you mean GEARLESS in the sense that the cargo container ships would not have the necessary command and control systems to launch the missiles, this can be rectified pretty easily with modifications. With regards to issues (2) and (3) you've raised, this would largely depend upon the doctrine of the Nation deploying the weapon. With regards to your query (3), the nature of the warhead would also be important to take into account. If it is a nuclear warhead, then I guess most Nations wouldn't like their premier assets to roam the seas indefinitely and virtually undefended (from say, a heliborne commando raid, or a raid from commandos launched from a submarine).



BTW, thanks for your replies and questions. It makes one think hard and deep into this entire affair of container missiles, which could help enable separating the wheat from the chaff in this issue which has aroused much speculation and sensationalism.



I'll send you complete replies to your queries when I find time. Meanwhile, please do keep the queries and comments coming.

[Naresh]

[quote name='qubit' date='01 August 2010 - 11:59 PM' timestamp='1280686905' post='107716']

Naresh,



A partial reply. If you mean GEARLESS in the sense that the cargo container ships would not have the necessary command and control systems to launch the missiles, this can be rectified pretty easily with modifications. With regards to issues (2) and (3) you've raised, this would largely depend upon the doctrine of the Nation deploying the weapon. With regards to your query (3), the nature of the warhead would also be important to take into account. If it is a nuclear warhead, then I guess most Nations wouldn't like their premier assets to roam the seas indefinitely and virtually undefended (from say, a heliborne commando raid, or a raid from commandos launched from a submarine).



BTW, thanks for your replies and questions. It makes one think hard and deep into this entire affair of container missiles, which could help enable separating the wheat from the chaff in this issue which has aroused much speculation and sensationalism.



I'll send you complete replies to your queries when I find time. Meanwhile, please do keep the queries and comments coming.[/quote]



1. Container Ships being GEARLESS : I believe all Container Ships in the “Long Distance” Trades are GEARLESS in the sense that they have no Cranes etc. to Load or Discharge their Cargo. Yes indeed FEEDER Vessels which are used to Tranship Containers are usually Geared but with the “Proliferation” of Container Handling Ports I feel that that these FEEDER Vessels will operate on short voyages only where they continuously visit ports thereby being under strict “strategic” control.



Again a Missile being Launched from a Vessel will have to have some sort of Very Heavy Plating to withstand the Exhaust from the Missiles. Would request your input on this point.



2. I had presumed that they Container(s) containing the Cruise or Other Missile would be “landed” so as to be Launched. However if these Missiles are supposed to Launched from the Container or other Dry Cargo vessel then the vessel by itself would have to keep away from prying eyes i.e. not visit any “Port” at all as if so then everybody and his brother will become aware of this “Missile” Carrying container ship.



3. I am impressed by your statement “If it is a nuclear warhead, then I guess most Nations wouldn't like their premier assets to roam the seas indefinitely and virtually undefended (from say, a heliborne commando raid, or a raid from commandos launched from a submarine).” This would also be true in case of ANY MISSILE CARRYING Merchant Ship.



Thank you for this dialogue and I hope you will appraise me of any new ideas or developments as I am sure that the Idea of Container Vessels “roaming” around with Missiles on Board is very simplistic and totally practical so far as the “Carrying Ship” continues to roam the seas without entering any port.



A Negative Point : This is so simplistic, economic, practical (Basis Roaming) that it boggles the mind and is as “Dangerous” as the “Suit Case” Dirty Nuclear Device.



[color="#FF0000"]NOTE [/color]: I just realized the "Sagacity" of your statement [size="5"][color="#FF0000"]"or a raid from commandos launched from a submarine"[/color][/size]



Holy Van Kamoli : You have just given an impetus to my thinking that the 26-11-2008 Raid at Mumbai had the 12 Terrorists being initially brought to Indian Waters by a Pakistani Agosta Submarine and the Terrorists were "launched" from the Submarine just before morning twilight.



Regretfully this idea does not meet the thinking of India's Strategic Thinkers!



Cheers

[ramana]

X-post from D Roy in BRF:

Bhaiyon aur Baihnon,

The Navy will need three or four nuclear-powered submarines for this arm to be a viable force. Will you build more LWRs for these submarines?



We are already doing that. I will not be able to tell you the number, but it is a fact that we are in that game. The next nuclear steam generating plants are getting ready for future applications.

LINK

Link also suggest the new enrichment facility coming up in Chitradurga, Karnataka is more for pwoer reactor fuelling and has a higher Separating Unit (SUs) ie more efficient plant. And it centrifuge based.



My guess is it is the super critical centrifuges.

[acharya]

[quote name='qubit' date='31 July 2010 - 08:03 AM' timestamp='1280543129' post='107699'] BTW, please cut out the "Ji" bit.

[/quote]

We use Ji in this forum. Some of us insist.

[Naresh]

.

ramana Ji :



[url="http://www.zeenews.com/news658368.html"]US Senate OKs transfer of two minehunters to India[/url]



Washington: The US Senate has approved the transfer of two Osprey-class minehunter coastal ships to India.



The two minehunter ships are Kingfisher (MHC-56) and Cormorant (MHC-57). Both were decommissioned in 2007 and now awaiting it’s to India.



Osprey-class coastal minehunters are designed to find, classify, and destroy moored and bottom naval mines from vital waterways. They use sonar and video systems, cable cutters and a mine detonating device that can be released and detonated by remote control.



Touted as world's second largest minehunters, they are constructed entirely of fibre-glass and are designed to survive the shock of underwater explosions.



Their primary mission is reconnaissance, classification, and neutralisation of all types of moored and bottom mines in littoral areas, harbours and coastal waterways. The ships are equipped with a high definition, variable-depth sonar, and a remotely-operated, robotic submarine used to neutralise mines.



PTI



ramana Ji : I believe Pakistan has "Bought" (of course at Distress Sale Price) Eight Hazard Perry Class Frigates. Is it possible to know at what Price these two Mine Hunters have been acquired by the Indian Navy.



Many thanks in advance.



Cheers