Indology And Indologists,

[dhu]

<!--QuoteBegin-Viren+Jun 26 2009, 06:57 PM-->QUOTE(Viren @ Jun 26 2009, 06:57 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
I don't remember who, but someone had mentioned that love and interest these Indologists claim to have for India-Hindu-Indic culture & civilization is similar to the love a pedophile has towards children.
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This was Yvette Rosser..

[Guest]

<b>The First Conference of Micheal Witzel of Harvard University!</b>

Vedaprakash

vedamvedaprakash@ yahoo.com

It has been again Sanskrit College , Chennai. The date is July 6, 2009 on the eve of Gurupurnima[1]! There is a meeting arranged by the Sanskrit College inviting the Sanskrit Professor of Harvard University . However, the websites[2] declared it as a "conference" !

Dr N. Mahalingam gave the welcome address introducing the speaker Michael Witzel (hereinader mentioned as MW) as the suitable person to address the gathering at the Sanskrit College . He is 66, born in Germany and got Ph.D at the age of 29 and thus, the Sanskrit College Committee member Mahalingam went on eulogizing the so-called Sanskrit Professor of Harvard University . He says Witzel daily recites Rigveda but we Indians have forgotten Rigveda[3]. As he and been expert in different fields as "his knowledge has expanded widely". Rigveda has 4,32,000 sounds……Tilak dated it to 8000 BCE, but its date could even go before it, though the western scholars do not accept. The British declared tat Rama and Krishna were not historical persons. L. D. Swamikkannu Pillai meddled with Indian chronology at the behest of the British, But Prof Srinivasa Raghavan of Vivekananda College with his astronomical methods fixed date of many important historical events. Both Sanskrit and Tamil are the ancient languages and every person, who knew Tamil, knew Sanskrit also some 200 years ago. After the British period only difference had cropped up in the name of Sanskrit and Tamil. Tolkappiyam has been the most ancient extant Tamil work, One American writer – Frank Joseph has written book on Lost Lemuria, who locates in South East Asia region that submerged some 54,000 YBP. Thus, recently, there had been a lot of research that brought out many important facts. He requested Witzel to go into these details in his linguistic study of the ancient languages.

Next Dr Sankaranarayanan introduced the topic of the subject o be dealt with by MW. He was the right person to talk there on two accounts –

1. He was the Sanskrit professor from the Harvard University and
2. He had chosen the topic on "Rigveda and its language"[4] (perhaps, culture and civilization also).

After listing out his membership, briefing his academic profile etc., asserted that he was the right person to talk about the topic. He pointed out about MW's work "Kataranyaka" , a rare work. Earlier it was part of Indian drama and was there in every village, but now it disappeared. Taittreya Upanishd should be read to understand it. He asked MW to present a copy of the book to the KSRI library. Reciting a sloka on Max Mueller that says that Max Mueller was a Mokshamular, he changed it by inserting MW's name, thus making him another such specie coming from Harvatika! The date of Rigveda cannot be decided as to whether it was 1000 BCE or 1500 BCE etc. It cannot be said definitely as belonging to pre-Harappa, Harappan or proto-Harappan period. Sanskrit was new, though it was old. The word "Sanskrit" was never used to denote a language till 600 CE. It was always used as adjective, till Dandi used it to denote a language. In fact, the language of Indian should be mentioned as "Bharati", as the language of England is English, France French, the language of Bharat should be Bharati! Amarasimha says, "Brahmi Bharati". In a partigular type of yagna, "Bharati" is invoked several times…….. It has to be noted that the Sanskrit inscriptions were found throughout India unlike other Indian languages. MW would then talk about the culture. "Culture" connotes properly cultivated behaviour…... There should be inward perfection for good culture…….., as external perfection may not exhibit true character………. Then, comes "civilization" , as it is "civilized status with civilized behaviour……….

The compere intervened to announce as MW was preoccupied and there was shortage of time, there would not be any question answer session. He says that the e-mail of MW would be given and he would answer any question raised by the audience.

Michael Witzel then started his "conference" : "<b>I am happy to be here……tomorrow is Gurupurnima…and we have to remember our teachers…I studied in Allahabad during 1945-37 under my teachers…..Now, here, I will not talk politics and whatever I say, you may not agree with me, but still you ask questions, I may not answer….You may have other opinion also. As India has many sampradhayas[5], you can treat my views as another sampradhaya……….you may not agree with me, but kindly listen to me. If you have anby questions, I shall answer.</b>

<b>"My study is based upon the inter-disciplinary approach…….the so-called Aryan invasion is outdated. It is a political discussion, but I would not talk about it. My discussion is based on the facts from the Rigveda….the scientific data derived from it…I do not think any genetic expert is here, but my study is based on such scientific principles also. There could be scope of misunderstanding about my theory with limitations, but we have to come to consensus……no doubt Rigveda has antiquity, it is an ancient hymn collection of bronze age. It is bronze age text and not of iron age o stone age…….</b>


"Another point may be agreed by you that the Rigveda was composed by the Rishis. It was composed with a particular type of poetics and alankara using specific syntax. The text was composed accordingly. Rigveda has geographic limits (showing a map covering north-east Punjab area and some parts of Haryana)………..In Afghanisthan also there is a Sarayu, but not that of Ayodhya.


"Rigvedic Sanskrit is not Paninian Sanskrit or Kalidasa Sanskrit. And not even Atharvavea Sanskrit. Linguistics has changed several times during the course of times and accordingly the words too connote differently during different times…..(he explained with certain words)….."Gachathi" has different connotations…….(his speech is not clear and he was not keeping the mike properly, though repeatedly he was asked to keep it as the audience was not able to listen to him)

"Different languages were spoken in India ….Para-munda in the northern India covering Punjab , Kashmir areas…….Munda in MP….(showing a map). Rigveda has a pluralistic language and it could be understood with certain tricks…..If Sanskrit is read differently, we could understand Avestha also.

"Let us take the expression "Father Heaven"…..it has same pronunciation in different languages. Pitram-pitrem- pitrea-piter and so on. Similarly hasti-haesti- asti-esti- sti-is (he/she/it is) comes like this. So also "They are" can be explained. This pattern is found in he evolution of languages as in IE-EIE-IIr…(showing a PP diagram). Thus, we have two categories of languages……

1. pre-Vedic – proto-Iranian and
2. Rigvedic –Avesthan

"Jed-sa-zd-ai etc.

Mazdai-zdai- sede-

This has been the linguistic sampradhaya………(he was obviously skipping the explanation) . On the top of the Himalayas , certain words are used and they are not used on the plains. And these words were coming from tropical climatic areas…….The poetic-alankara used has been close to the Greek……..

"Coming to the Soma plant, it is located in Central Asia near Tajikistan and it came to Iran from Central Asia and then to India . In the words,Yama-yam… also such migration could be noted. People were living in more populated and less populated areas / clusters. The higher level of religion was dominated by the Brahmins and Kshatriyas……then comes Daas / Dasyus and they were accommodated accordingly………City formation had been there accordingly…. .Recent archaeological evidences of Haryana also show such pattern.

"Different language groups existed thus in different areas (showing a map through PP). Dravidian laguages were spoken in the Souther area (showing the four states – Tamilnadu, AP, Kerala and Karnataka), "Former Dravidian areas" (showing Maharastra), Indus (Sindhu area), Lanuage-X (UP), Khasi ( Assam ), …….."Former Austro-Asiatic Areas?" (was shown in between the UP and MP from IVC / Rajasthan to Orissa)…..

"The Sanskrit speaking people were moving with cattle having interaction with others……Thus the names of the Kings mentioned have been local names……At the end of Rigveda, it is interesting to note what happened………

"Coming to the so-called Siva or Pasupathi (showing the IVC seal[6], M-304), actually it is not known what is this deity. How the IVC people called him, we do not know. He – the horned god - is surrounded with four animals and there has been another figure where "a hunter killing a water buffalo in front of a seated horned deity" (Kenoyer[7]). There has been another seal where "a man fighting short horned bull" (Kenoyer[8]). You can see similar figure from Denmark also (showing the photo of Gundestrup Cauldron[9], though he did not mention so). Here also he is surrounded with four different animals If you compare both (showing both figures side by side with IVC seal inverted), we can say, he is not Siva, but some other deity….. This is Mahishashuramardhin i. It is not known how the Mahishashuramardhin i appears in Hinduism later. Think about it. Is there any link?

"The people followed both burial and crematory practices…………..

"There is another figure where inside a female, a human figure is shown (showing a seal), perhaps spirit. Its significance has to be studied.

"Now genetic methods are applied to find out the details. Suppose, if your saliva is taken and tested, details would be known to tell who is your father, mother etc. But I do not know how many of you know genetics……Recently, some Indian scholars have brought out data on such genetic studies about the people of India . Their data represented show that the south Indian tribals and Kashmir Brahmins belonged to the same stock. But still, you can find some groups are left out or fall outside the pattern represented. Who are those people? They are from Assam , Nagas and others.

"The picture about the IVC and the Rivedic people has been complicated. Data and information can be obtained from different fields, but they have to be studied together carefully.

"So I stop here and I would like to answer two three questions, if any one audience would like to do so".

At that time, K. V. Ramakrishna Rao came to the podium and asked the following specific questions by way of clarification. Meanwhile, seeing him Iravatham Mahadevam started insisting that the questions should be short[10]. Anyway, introducing himself, he asked the following questions:

1. There has been a Bongozkai inscription dated to circa 1450 BCE which specifically mentions about a treaty in which the people invoked the so-called Vedic gods or the Rigvedic gods as mentioned by you according to your sampradhaya[11]. How you correlate and corroborate them linguistically, archaeologically, and chronologically with your sampradhaya?

2. You have shown two pictures one from IVC and another from Denmark and telling that the so-called deity represented is not that of Rigvedic, though the deity is surrounded by the animals. How could you differentiate it from your sampradhaya and Indian sampradhaya?

Micheal Witzel started answering, but he could not even name the so-called Vedic gods mentioned and Rao was naming as – "Indrasil, Mitrasil, Varunasil, Nasattyas". He accepted that they were Vedic gods, though the Mittanic people were invoking them after their gods and the language used was like Vedic Sanskrit only. Of course, there is chronological gap.

Rao was asking about the correlation – pointing out how the Soma drinking, Rigvedic Sanskrit speaking people migrating from Central Asia to Iran to India could mention about such deities, how the Mittanis?

N. Mahalingam intervened and telling that there should not be discussion and Mahadevan was urging to wind up. But Rao was responding that it was important because Indians had been told about such stuff again and again for the last 60 years. He insisted that his e-mail should be given as promised and his full text of the paper also made available for discussion. When Iravatham Mahadevaninterved that it was not possible, Rao requested that at least Michael Witzel could send a copy through e-mail. Micheal Witzel was seen nodding his head and he gave his visiting card to Rao.

Of course, he did not answer the second question. In fact, one person from the audience reminded about this, but the organizers did not care.


The compe're again intervened and proceeded to thanksgiving.

Then, Dr Deviprasad, the Principal of Sanskrit College talked to point out that the Riugvedic culture cannot be separated from the Indian culture. It is the Indian tradition that worships trees, rivers and mountains even by deification. Of course, the westerners interpret differently. He added that Michael Witzel had not completed his speech and in fact, he might take few hours to complete his talk!

Thus the meeting / Conference was over!

While coming out I saw Haran and another were distributing four-page handout about Michae Witzel (while entering I saw Haran and Radha Rajan were arguing with the police). So when I enquired with the police, the organizers had given a complaint asking for protection of the speaker. When I told them that those who had come there were educated and elite and not of such category as apprehended. I told that the speaker was telling that Siva is not Indian god and so on. The officer retorted, "Is it so? How then that IAS officer Iravatham Mahadevan was keeping quite? He knows everything". The police informed that they had not obtained permission to stage demonstration against the meeting. The officer added that every body has a right to demonstrate, but they should have obtained prior permission.
<i>
Note: This has been prepared based on the notes noted down during the meeting. There are some points to be clarified. And therefore, certain points may be added or amended accordingly later.</i>

Vedaprakash

07-07-2009

[1] Can it be considered as "Teacher's Day", the real "Teacher's Day?

[2] Some "Asiatic" website. In fact, it declares that Micheal Witzel would be participating in three conferences to be held in India !

[3] Is not the shame for Indians to confess so. Who has told Indians not to recite Rigveda daily?

[4] In fact, the full title of his paper or talk was not known, as nothing was mentioned about it.

[5] Sampradhaya is used as equivalent to tradition, traditional way of practice etc., but it might be using in the sense of "methodology" .

[6] Jonathan Mark Kenoyer, Ancient Cities of the Indus Valley Civilization, Oxford University Press, Karachi, Pakistan, 2000, p.112, fig.6.18.

[7] Ibid, p.114, fig.6.24.

[8] Ibid, p.115, Fig. 6.25, a.

[9] Myles Dillon, Celts and Aryans, Indian Institute of Advanced study, Simla, 1975, Picture.7. It is mentioned asa the Horned God (Cernumnos?) as Lord of Animals (Pasupathi).

[10] When he asked Asko Parpola last year, why his paper was prevented by Michael Witzel, whether he was presenting the same paper that he presented at Tokyo , though Asko Parpola started to answer, Iravatham Mahadevan prevented Parpola to tell the details under the pretext of shortage of time and declaed to wind up the meeting!

[11] As the expression "Sampradhaya" was used by MW repeatedly to assert his interpretation over others and insisted that his way of interpretation should be accepted by the Indian Pundits, obviously he was using such expression.

[Husky]

^ Important posts.

<!--QuoteBegin-dhu+Jun 26 2009, 04:47 AM-->QUOTE(dhu @ Jun 26 2009, 04:47 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Indologist "Arnaud Fournet" insults Indians

<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->This article is fairly good.

I have already opted out of Akandaram list, which I will describe as a
psychiatric hospital.
I'm not sur the other "Indian" lists are any better.

It's really amazing that India is such a mentally sick country, obsessed
with racism and all those absurd theories.
I was not aware of that.
Most of you are mentally **sick**
I think I understand better the social clashes that keep happening over
there,
It's quite inevitable with such a mind-set.

Arnaud
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<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Race and racism are christian theory, spinoff of christianism.


1. The christowestern racists are just doing a pre-emptive on Dharmic Bharatam: if person A calls person B racist before B can call A racist (thus preempting B), then no one will take the B's claims as seriously - A gets the benefit of the doubt merely by 'virtue' of being the first claimant. Cheap trick in mass psychology, standard kindergarten logic. The christoclass mindvirus always indulges in it.

2. Said Indologist "Arnaud Fournet":
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm not at all racist,
and I've been married with a Chinese <b>girl</b> for years.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tsss, look at that wording. Look how he condescendingly refers to her as "girl". It's either condescension or it's a public admission on his part that he's a paedophile (and if so, and she's <i>still</i> only a girl after all these years, when did he abduct her? - one wants to know.)

His being married to a "Chinese <b>girl</b>" for years is actually further proof of christowestern aka 'white' racism: Lots of E Asians in America and elsewhere argue that it most certainly is a form of racism where western men 'collect' E Asian people and materials: E Asian women, adopting E Asian children, buying stolen Asian national treasures from the black market. See IF members' earlier posts to this effect, e.g.:
- "Asia as a Topos of Fear and Desire for Nazis and Extreme Rightists as Evidenced in the Case of Asian Studies of Sweden" by Tobias Hübinette aka Lee Sam-Dol
- Dhu's post linking to TransnationalAbductees: A Critique of Inter-country Adoption also by Lee Sam-Dol who is himself a transnational abductee by christowestern racists
- http://modelminority.com/ had various discussions and articles on the christowestern 'white' male creating hyper-sexualised stereotypes of Asian females, and feminising Asian males in order to neuter them in christowestern society (western social engineering for dominance).
E.g. http://modelminority.com/article1120.html via http://www.anbmsource.com/node/265:
<b>Racist love or physical preference? Interracial Marriage and the Legacy of Colonialization</b>

[dhu]

And his reply will be "I don't believe in the theory of Colonialism, I am a Social democrat, the beliefs of Social Democrats are Equality and Fraternity. That is not my character. That is not the real me."

It is like accusing a murderer of murder and he replies, I am not a believer in the Ideology of Murder. Before, his reply would have been I am a Christian, And my God is a righteous God; therefore, .....

The hapless Heathen who can easily see through the "My God is a Righteous God" cannot see through the "My ideology of Democracy is about Peace and Love, so what's the problem?"

[Guest]

http://newstodaynet.com/printer.php?id=18010
<b>An Aryan invader from America - I</b>
V. Sundaram - July 7, 2009

<b>Professor Dr.Michael Witzel, a racist scholar wedded to the cause of Evangelization of India and the world (if that is feasible) and total distortion of Indian History, divorced from all known principles of classical historiography is now in Chennai city delivering lectures on the languages and cultures revealed by the Rigveda.</b>

Yesterday he delivered his lecture at Madras Sanskrit College in Mylapore. I understand that he is delivering two lectures at the University of Madras and Roja Muthiah Library tomorrow. It is understood that he will be going to New Delhi in the next few days to deliver some more talks.

In my article in these columns in News Today on 20 February 2009, I had commented on the dubious academic credentials of Professor Witzel: ‘<b>There is an organized gang of evangelical anti-Hindu academic gangsters in United States led by one Professor Witzel</b>. Any one can see that he is a man with a closed mind on all things relating to Hindu Religion, Hindu Civilization, and Hindu Culture. <b>He seems to be very upset (not intellectually but religiously and culturally in the evangelical sense or nonsense!) over the great initiative taken by Dr Nalini Rao and Dr Christopher Key Chapple to organize an international conference on Vedic Sarasvati Hindu Civilization at Los Angeles in June 2009.</b> He has said ‘Whenever the Harappan or Indus civilization is relabeled ‘SINDHU-SARASVATI CIVILIZATION’, everyone involved in the field, if not the public, recognizes that he or she has stumbled into extremists HINDUTVA (Hindu nationalist and/or fundamentalist) Territory…. This being said, why—besides all-too-familiar Hindutva apologists including Subhash Kak, Nicholas Kusanas, BB Lal etc.—are a handful of major Western archaeologists including most notably Mark Kenoyer, Maurizio Tosi and Carl Lamberg-Karlovsky, taking path in the Conference? Certainly not because any of them would personally endorse the absurd ‘SINDHU-SARASVATI CIVILIZATION’ label in print—since they wouldn’t. Instead, to put it frankly, it is due to (1) money and (2) in some cases earlier access to Harappan Archaeological sites on the Indian side of the Indian-Pakistan divide. <b> It takes enormous funds to run these conferences, doled out freely for honoraria and expenses (the invitees are flown in at huge expense by the rich NRIs (non-resident Indians) who fund them from Europe, India and the United States’ Evangelical academics like Professor Witzel are known internationally for their simple and Spartan living and tortuously complicated anti-Hindu thinking</b>!”

Michael Witzel was born in 1943 at Schwiebus, Germany, now Poland. He studied Indology under Professors Paul Thieme, H. P. Schmidt, K. Hoffmann and J. Narten in Germany from 1965 to 1971. Later in 1972-73, he also studied under Mîmâmsaka Jununath Pundit in Nepal. From 1972 to 1978, he led the Nepal-German Manuscript Preservation Project and the Nepal Research Centre at Kathamandu. Subsequently, he has taught at Tübingen (1972), Leiden (1978-1986), and at Harvard since 1986. He is Wales Professor of Sanskrit at Harvard University (USA).
<b>
Many well known Sanskrit scholars and responsible citizens in USA have told me that Witzel is a viciously brazen and brazenly vicious anti-Hindu evangelical racketeer.</b> All this came to open public light in a Court of Law when an important Hindu Civil Rights case was fought in UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT EASTERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA. This case related to the textbook and educational material prepared by California State Board of Education (CBE) to teach Hindu civilization to 8th grade students. The legal complaint of Hindu Groups in California was that the school textbooks indoctrinate children with Abrahamic religions and teach biblical events as actual facts while treating Hinduism in a derogatory manner.

It was also pointed out that the CBE failed to provide equal opportunities and equal representation to every religion and culture. CAPEEM (California Parents for the Equalisation of Education Materials) was formed to represent parents in California in a lawsuit against the State Board of Education.

<b>It was clearly presented in the California court with irrefutable documentary evidence that this evangelical Professor Dr Witzel who was engaged as a consultant by CBE had worked with the Church in Colorado and even edited their Wikipedia entry to suppress the evangelical nature of the church. Asian Invasion Theory is Biblical and that is why Witzel and his anti-Hindu hate group cohorts support it. The intervention of Witzel and co. in California textbook content was part of a plan to induct Biblical beliefs into the curriculum. Witzel was a central figure in the motivated evangelical effort!</b>

Harvard Donkey Trial pits Science against Creationism with Hindus on the side of Science and the Harvard professor Witzel, who has been some sort of a volunteer for a fanatical evangelical group in Colorado, on the side of Creationism. Witzel famously claimed that horses in India were donkeys in order to push the Biblical Japhetic Race Theory into textbooks.

CAPEEM (California Parents for the Equalisation of Education Materials) which is fighting the text book case, which I call Harvard Donkey Trial, served a number of subpoenas to various parties including textbook publishers, Hotmail, Dalit Freedom Network, Michael Witzel, Stanley Wolpert, Charles Munger, and Dalit Solidarity Forum operating out of St. Alban’s Church in New Jersey. The CAPEEM also sought documents from the officials of California Department of Education (CDE) and CBE. <b>In the emerging discovery process, Witzel turned over some more documents including an email uncovering the fact that the CDE had conducted a secret meeting that was previously unheard of. This meeting with anti-Hindu groups was in addition to the secret meeting that CDE had conducted with Witzel and others</b>.

CAPEEM also uncovered a link between Michael Witzel and Dalit Freedom Network (DFN), a group that operates out of a Church in Colorado. I have myself carefully scrutinized many of the e-mails sent by Witzel which are available on the internet. <b>He coordinated his campaign with DFN and planned in advance the details of what would be spoken at meetings. Witzel also sent an email alerting DFN to the description of their organization on Wikipedia and stated that whenever he erased the description, it kept coming back. An office bearer of DFN followed up on this email by saying that she did not want to ‘start being identified as a missions organization’ and wanted to know if they could edit it themselves.</b> (Source: http://capeem.org). All this goes to show that Professor Dr.Michael Witzel is an unabashed evangelist who endeavours to be singularly unscrupulous just in order to be magnificently successful in his underground evangelical mission!!

I asked Dr Kalyanaraman as to what he has to say about Professor Witzel’s views on Hindu Culture: ‘Michael Witzel is a controversial person for his association with Christian evangelical churches and his contribution to a journal started by Roger Pearson who is the founder of a Nazi group named Northern League. He is also a believer of the discredited Aryan Invasion Theory which has its origins in the Biblical belief that everyone on earth today is a descendant of one of the three sons of Noah and hence came from Central Asia. The most recent controversy he was embroiled in was at Harvard when he taught the Devanagari alphabet as one of his courses for doctoral candidates. Leading critics have even gone so far as to question his intellectual abilities if he believed that something fit for elementary schools should be part of the instructional material for doctoral candidates.’

Witzel has also attacked those who opposed Biblical indoctrination in California’s history textbooks. For example, the textbooks teach that the ‘Lord made the wheels fall off the chariots’ and this was the reason the Egyptians could not capture the Jews. When several parents opposed such indoctrination, Witzel attacked them and defended the textbooks. He also criticized those who opposed the textbooks for using ‘hard science,’ a stance that did not go well with scientists. A lawsuit followed in which Witzel’s connection to a church was uncovered. After many racist remarks by Witzel surfaced, including one stereotyping all the people of Uttar Pradesh as ‘proud and empty,’ the State of California decided not to fight out the lawsuit and instead paid the group of parents a massive sum of one lakh and seventy five thousand dollars.

I put this question to Dr.Kalyanaraman: What do you think of Dr.Witzel’s controversial and contentious scholarship? He replied:

‘What type of scholarship is this, even if it is said to be from Harvard? Lokahitam is the touchstone which determines true scholarship. Just as Satyam is truth that is pleasing, scholarship is transparent action which is loka-hitaaya ‘for the well-being of the society’. How should such action be performed or such responsibility be discharged? Scholarship should be governed by dharma, that is ethical conduct, a social ethic which respects the responsibilities being discharged by everyone in society. <b>In Witzel, we have evidence of the very antithesis of such scholarship, motivated as he is by a Christian evangelical mission (as exposed during the Harvard Donkey Trial, also called the CAPEEM California textbook case), working for the Colorado church engaged in ‘Dalit Freedom Network’ to denigrate Hindusthan. Engaged in a motivated act of faith in the Japhetic Race theory of the Bible to be pushed into the textbooks, Witzel ends up arguing that horses in ancient Hindusthan were donkeys. India can do without such scholarship or emulation of such pseudo-scholarship by those researchers engaged in civilization studies, because such scholarship is a scourge on the academe, particularly when it is evangelical peddling promoted by self-proclaimed ‘well-known scientists’.</b>
<b>
In my view Dr.Witzel today is a true representative of the Colonial, Imperialist, Racist and Evangelical anti-Hindu scholars like James Mill, Lord Macaulay, Max Mueller and many other English administrators of British India in the 19th century. He shamelessly clings to the Imperialist Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT), even after it has been overthrown, with assistance from sordid Missionary Agencies like the Colorado Church. The stern, grim and scorching story relating to this lurid drama will have to be told in the larger public interest of the gullible Hindus of India.</b>

(To be contd...)



(The writer is a retired IAS officer)

e-mail the writer at

vsundaram@newstodaynet.com

[Bodhi]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The most recent controversy he was embroiled in was at Harvard when he taught the Devanagari alphabet as one of his courses for doctoral candidates.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Any details about that?

[Husky]

<!--QuoteBegin-dhu+Jul 7 2009, 11:26 PM-->QUOTE(dhu @ Jul 7 2009, 11:26 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->And his reply will be "I don't believe in the theory of Colonialism, I am a Social democrat, the beliefs of Social Democrats are Equality and Fraternity.  That is not my character.  That is not the real me."[right][snapback]99532[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->"It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye." There's only so long these characters can play their convoluted word games in the public arena without their mental wastes coming back to affect their personal lives/spheres.
If an anonymous person were to tip off his Mrs about his two racist posts (there's no way she can miss their import), she'd be awaiting him with a Divorce order and tell him to "Stay away from me, You Racist <i>Freak</i>."

And it will be All's well as ends well.

[Husky]

Kind of related to K.Ram's #45:

Witzel's New Revealation - Rigveda is not Indian, but foreign ! <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<b>The Third Conference of Michael Witzel at Pondicherry!
By Veda Prakash</b>

Apparently a closed door meeting:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The visit of Michael Witzel to Pondicherry had been intriguing as his visit was kept secret[1] and in fact, the so-called conference there, was held as a "closed door meeting", where only 11 persons were there from the French Institute.

Note: I was not at Pondicherry and I thank friends for giving these details. As they requested their names not to be mentioned, their names are withheld. Here, whatever inputs received from the Pondicherry friends are given without the square brackets [ ], whereas my comments, inferences and implications are given [in the square brackets as shown].<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Witzel had lots of holy things to say:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Ø      "Sayana, the commentator of Rigveda had been just 600 years elder to me", asserted Witzel<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Ø      Witzel claimed that Sayana from Karnataka, could not have understood the Sanskrit that was spoken in Punjab nearly 2000 years before him.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Ø      So his (Sayana's) commentary in many places and on many matters is unreliable except for the interpretation and conduct of Vedic sacrifices.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> Witzel guided by the holy Oryan powah!

I hope Witzel gets paid sufficiently to lie for his holy christian masters. Anyone here able to estimate how much it cost for Witzel to sell all his integrity (the scholarly and human kind)? I can't count so good, but made it all the way to 10c. In any case, I think he was shortchanged <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo--> Poor witzel. I'd have given him twice as much if he had just stuck to pure facts, that way he could have kept his integrity. Never mind. At least the non-existent holy spook - or the confessional - will absolve him of christolying.


<b>ADDED:</b>
Other recent HK entries on the poster boy of indology:
- http://haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx?P...908&SKIN=W
<b>Witzel, Harvard professor launches anti-Hindu Crusade</b>
05/07/2009 15:02:29 Dr. Srinivasan Kalyanaraman
- http://haindavakeralam.com/HkPage.aspx?P...927&SKIN=W
<b>"Conferences "of Micheal Witzel of Harvard University in Chennai</b>
09/07/2009 14:47:19 By Vedaprakash
- http://haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx?P...930&SKIN=B
<b>Who cares a damn who this Witzel is and what is his opinion about Hinduism ?</b>
09/07/2009 14:54:18 GSK Menon
- Copy of K.Ram's #45:
http://haindavakeralam.com/HkPage.aspx?P...928&SKIN=W
<b>An Aryan invader from America</b>
09/07/2009 14:32:01 V. Sundaram

[dhu]

Is Maslows Hierarchy A Plagiarism On Chakras + Kundalini Yoga, Known About For Thousands of Years

[dhu]

Frank Lloyd Wright and Japan: The Role of Traditional Japanese Art and Architecture in the Work of Frank Lloyd Wright

[dhu]

William James is the "inventor" of the stream of consciosness "technique." His influences are quite obvious given the following:



[url="http://www.brocku.ca/MeadProject/James/James_1911/James_1911_02.html"]William James, "The Tigers in India", Chapter 2 in The Meaning of Truth. [/url]



Yet..

In Indian writing in English, there are a very few writers dealing with the Stream of Consciousness technique. The Stream of Consciousness technique as employed by these writers is just a tentative experiment with this new form. It is yet to enter the main steam of fiction. Though novelists like Tagore, Bankim Chandra, R. K. Narayan, Mulk Raj Anand, Attia Hosain and Raja Rao have used the technique rather experimentally, they fail to portray the inner nuances of the protagonist’s consciousness. What they give is but a series or disjointed and rambling thought-processes or ruminations loosely tagged to the plot of the novel. A few novelists like Shouri Daniel, Anita Desai, and Arun Joshi could to some extent succeed in employing the Stream of Consciousness technique in their novels.



Among the Indian novelists, handling Stream of Consciousness technique, Arun Joshi occupies a significant position. Chiefly concerned



[url="http://sunoasis.ning.com/profiles/blogs/stream-of-consciousness"]Stream of Consciousness Technique: A Study of Arun Joshi’s Fiction[/url]

by Dr. Arvind Nawale

[Husky]

1. haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx?PageID=11325&SKIN=B

Interview with Prof Prodosh Aich, author of "Lies With Long Legs"

[...]

A: Max Mueller. It is not his name. His name was Friedrich Maximillan Mueller. He did not publish in German. He did not get a job in Germany. He got a job with the East India Company in England. Most of his writings are in English. He was neither a scholar nor he knew Sanskrit. He was a swindler.



Q: You call him a swindler?



A: I call him a swindler. I can provide proofs in support of my assertion. I can reason it out also. Max Mueller had assumed that he was a scholar. From his own autobiography, from biographies written by his son and wife, from other biographies, from his other writings, and from his letters, we can reconstruct his life from birth to his death. After passing the High School, he never appeared in any examination rather never cleared any examination. So obviously he can not possess any academic degrees. Yet he calls himself a Master of Arts (MA). His wife calls him a Doctor of Philosophy. His wife maintains that he was a Ph. D. from the Leipzig University. There is no record at the Leipzig University or any proof that he appeared in any examination there. So how would you describe him:



Q: You devote considerable space in your book to William Jones. What about him?



A: He had not written an auto- biography but lot of biographies have been written about him. He had left behind his letters. Two volumes of his letters have been published. If one goes through his biography from his childhood till he came to India, one finds out that William Jones was an opportunist. He did everything to make a career and ultimately he claimed that he knew 32 languages And it has come to be accepted by the educated community.



Q; What about his knowledge of Sanskrit?



A: In 1885, he has confessed in a letter to Charles Wittkins in Calcutta that he is too old to learn Sanskrit. But, it is absolutely certain that he did not have command over Sansrkit. He had no time to pick up Sanskrit.



Q: But he has translated some Sanskrit works?



A: Only one work he has published. That is Manu's laws but even this has been done by others, by hired Pundits. He has put his name on it.

[...]

How true is this stuff on Jonesy? Not that his turning out to be a charlatan is a shock. (I go by the general rule of thumb that christobrits/christocolonials/christos don't know what they are/were talking about. My pre-judging them has never been proved wrong yet, so it's statistically safer than being neutral about them.)



More such stuff at the link. (I don't agree with all of what's there - such as on Kamadeva and Samskritam not being a spoken language etc - but that's beside the point of my posting the link.)





2. More info about Prodosh Aich's book at Kaushal's blog which opens with:

Book Review Lies with Long legs by Prodosh Aich



This book forms a good source of reference material for the assertions we have been making in the South Asia File,. Prof Prodosh Aich of Oldenberg university has demolished the notion that many of the people who studied India over the centuries have any pretensions to scholarship or knowledge about India. It is clear that neither Max Muller nor Sir William Jones would have passed their PhD qualifying exams had they proposed their hypothesis about the history of india based on such flimsy and shoddy work. But such is the reality of the age we live in that an occidental heritage is the major qualification for international acceptance of one's work. it is this heritage and not the content of the scholarship that determines whether one gets published in the journals of the west. Clearly the dream of Martin Luther King has a long way to go before it becomes reality.



In a sequel to the South Asia File we will document the works of Indologists through the millennia and show that beginning with the Jesuits in 1540 CE there was a concerted effort to purloin the intellectual property of the Indic civilization while at the same time denigrate it as being of little value.



The work of Prodosh Aich is of great value in exposing the fact that the Emperor has no clothes (see Hans Christian Anderson's fairy tales), and that the entire history of India is based on the work of people with meager scholarship in the traditions of the Indic civilization. I trust this book will be read by every Indian who can afford to buy the book or borrow it from a library





http://www.tribuneindia.com/2005/2005091.../book1.htm

Macaulays, Muellers exposed

Satish Misra



Lies with Long Legs

by Prodosh Aich. Samskriti. Pages 404. Rs 650.

[...]

[Husky]

The following's a crosspost because this belongs here.



And that other unpleasant topic again.





Something I recently discovered.

It has to do with post 32 of the indology thread [color="#800080"](this thread)[/color] at www.india-forum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/1836-indology-and-indologists/page__st__20__s__5a3cbf4c059897aaae437171ae4d3147



Personally, I think it is imperative for all Hindus to have ^read it^. Especially all the kinds that peddle Hindus' religion to aliens, and more so all the Hindus that peddle the Vedam among aliens.

In any case, if you haven't read that earlier post, there's really no point in reading the rest of this one, as it is directly connected.





Post 32 of the indology thread was a copy-and-paste affair from a forum discussion on the beliefnet site, which has since been reorganised or something so that the link I provided to the source now goes to a dead end. I searched the web for the text of the discussion, and it seems IF now has the only copy. (Someone's been cleaning up what their big mouth had given away...)



The alien "Vedic Recon" female had blabbed her gang's intentions publicly and verbosely:

- that she was inventing a new, True Vedic Religion (which wasn't Hindu religion; according to her/her alien gang Hindus are practising the neo-religion, and hers is the original/pure Vedic religion)

- that she had started in Hindu religion and wanted to be allowed to dabble in the Vedam, but that she had come up on a dead end because she realised Hindus wouldn't let her (her being an alien dabbling terrorist and all)

- that she therefore needed to start the True Pure Vedic Religion (and she's set it up in antagonism to Hindus' religion), wherein she declares she and her alien gang have right of access to the Vedam

- but she admitted repeatedly that she still needed Hindus to teach her the How To Do It All.

- she also admitted that by that point she had 'at last' found some Useful Indian Idiot (is there another kind?) to teach her proper diction in Skt. Gee, I wonder which of the long list of traitors she found to teach her and her equally poisonous like-minded kind to dabble in the Vedam. Gah of all the kinds of dabbling mlecchas to instruct - though all kinds are banned - they had to pick the worst of the lot. (And don't you know alien females are even more prone to dabbling and new-age than even the male kind. But they're all quite mad, and to distinguish between genders at this point borders on nitpicking.)

But well done, traitors, well done. I wish the many traitors inducting aliens into the Vedam would just publish their names and what they did already, so that native Hindus can shun them forever, and point to them throughout history as the source of the greatest of Hindus' woes. Personally, I wouldn't leave it at shunning *this* type of traitor, but then, I never did have a forgiving character. I really *really* wish I knew where they all lived. But as I don't have the requisite home addresses to do something about it/them, it's all only so much venting.



So on to the discovery.



When I looked up the Vedic Recon female's handle on the internet to see whether she was still on beliefnet at least, found out this particular individual hadn't merely started off dabbling in Hinduism, but had been a presumably long-term and visible participant in something called "Hindunet" - since she expected other alien (undercover?) dabblers to remember and recognise her from there:



excoboard.com/AXE__OAK/1925/300421

aryamani

Warrior



Posts: 52

Registered: May 2005 Posted May 27th, 2005 01:14 PM IP

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey, you guys!



All right, getting down to business:



I am a "Vedic Recon" and other user names you might recognise:



amorphous (Beliefnet)

agnihotr (Sword & Shield, Hindunet, etc.)



Good to see you guys

When Hindus say No to aliens "No, you can't convert/dabble", you always (at least eventually) start seeing the alien dabblers' true colours.

Their responses always follow along one of several lines. Ranging all the way from pleading for acceptance with arguments of how they are "true Hindus" ("truer than you, far more like your Yogis and Rishis etc than you native Hindus are, therefore it all belongs to us more than it does to you" - nice try), to arguing that most Hindus aren't really native either (Namboodiris must be Syrian, GSBs and Chitpavans must be Iranian/whatever, etc) "therefore we're no more alien than you all are, therefore we have as much right to convert/to the Vedam as all of you",

all the way down to getting really angry and starting their own independent True Pure Vedic Religion and further declaring that Hindus' religion is as miscegenated a variant of Pure Vedic Religion as Hindus are a miscegation of Oryans (Japhetites) and Hamites (Dravoodians).



Hindus don't appear to know the mindset of aliens - and the consequent typical behaviour pattern of aliens of dabbling tendencies - yet insist on peddling Hindu religion among these.

The current aliens are the offspring of people who murdered the inconvertibles of the heathen religions of Europe.

If there are any heathens among the current aliens (and there are), they would be following their own ancestral heathenism, not be dabbling in Hindu religion. Wish Hindus would get that into their heads. There's a whole ocean of decent western people out there. But the ones that want to "convert" to (dabble in) Hindu or Daoist etc religion are specifically not it.