Hindu/Indian Culture Outside India

[dhu]

[url="http://www.sify.com/finance/buddhism-india-s-gift-to-steve-jobs-news-international-lkgnudfiaib.html#.To3k8XF3NZM.twitter"]Buddhism - India's gift to Steve Jobs[/url]

Like it has done to so many icons across the world, India was the source of spirituality to Apple co-founder Steve Jobs, who later converted to Buddhism.



Jobs had taken a "spiritual retreat to India" and "traversing through the country had sparked Jobs' conversion to Buddhism," a CNN report said.



Jobs had travelled to India in the late 1970s, with money he had saved working as a technician at a video games manufacturer in the US.



He reportedly visited the Neem Karoli Baba at his Kainchi Ashram with a Reed College friend Daniel Kottke in search of spiritual enlightenment.



Born in 1955 in San Francisco, Jobs grew up amid the rise of hippie counter-culture. Bob Dylan and the Beatles were his two favourite musical icons and he shared their political leanings and anti-establishment views.



"Like the Beatles, Jobs took a spiritual retreat to India and regularly walked around his neighbourhood and the office barefoot," the CNN report said.

[size="3"]Yes, it quite reminiscent of George Harrison's touching association with the HK's, the only Beetle who did not U-turn.

There is possibly a very small subset of "moderns" who will not revert to heathenism (which is very difficult to imbibe), but perhaps take a personal retreat into some alternate field such as tech (since they can intuit that a reversion will be unseemly).. These are very different than the appropriators, denigrators (New Age), and gaudy exhibitionists and self-aggrandizers with which we are all familiar.. These gems are few and far between..[/size]

[dhu]

[size="3"]Another article on the same lines..[/size]



[url="http://www.chakranews.com/the-hindu-side-of-steve-jobs-a-great-inspiration-to-people-around-the-world/1653?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=twitterfeed"]The Hindu Side of Steve Jobs – A Great Inspiration to People Around the World[/url]

(CHAKRA) Steve Jobs, 56, died on October 5th, 2011 once served as CEO of Pixar and Apple. In his popular Stanford University commencement address in 2005, Jobs said: “I would walk the 7 miles across town every Sunday night to get one good meal a week at the Hare Krishna (Hindu) temple. I loved it.” In the same speech, he talked about “karma”: “You have to trust in something — your gut, destiny, life, karma…”



Many reports suggest that Jobs worked for the video game manufacturer Atari as a technician with the main purpose of raising enough money for about a year-long spiritual and dharmic retreat to India in the 1970s in search of enlightenment. The trip to India including visiting the Ashram of Hindu guru Neem Karoli Baba. Steve Jobs came back to America with a shaved head and wearing traditional Indian robes. He regularly walked around his office/neighborhood barefoot which is very common in Buddhist and Hindu faiths.



Hinduism was a definite source of spirituality and inspiration for Steve Jobs as he liked yoga and was also vegetarian, known for his strong love and compassion to all animals and was even known to explore Hinduism during his trip to India in 1970s.

[Husky]

There are lots of people who are agnostics and personal atheists in certain tech fields. Most of them are perfectly contented to be just that. However, in my experience, several of the former have shown a serious (pointed) interest in the heathenism of some of their friends. When I have sufficiently established for myself that they are of the trustworthy and innately good kind, I steer them to what they truly want (or closer to it than their misplaced interest in Hindoo-ism) by pointing out some rather good books on Hellenismos - in their own language - that I discovered by great good fortune in the local library.

(But I never had to do this for the South American visitor. It was a chance discussion one day whereby I found out he had been a natural heathen (a Hellene) starting from his late teens.)

[Husky]

Post 1/2



Watched a chunk of that video from a few posts back. Two things:



1. The speaker describes the Chozha-era moorty of Parvaty as using exaggeration of the feminine form in order to showcase Parvaty as the epitomy of all femininity. Such a view may perhaps appeal to fancy, but it is incorrect.



The Hindoo artisan who fashioned the moorty was not using the principle of exaggeration to present Parvaty's outline. He (as other Hindoo painters, sculptors, and other artisans) was trying to be accurate to the authentic descriptions given of her in the Hindu religious texts and in her names including those of moolamoorties: her form is described as a very particular Figure-8. And that's what the Hindoo artisans tried to capture. Indeed, instead of being an exaggeration of the general female form, the moorty is an (inevitable) understatement of what the Hindoo artisan was trying to capture: Uma's own well-described and well-known form. Still, despite being an understatement, within the realm of human capabilities* it is accurate.

The very features that the speaker would attribute to the "genius for aesthetics" in the Hindu artist - who supposedly "conceived" of such an outline to her form - is actually entirely the credit of the Uma Devi herself: the Hindoos have but chosen to literally depict her well-described form.



[* "Accurate rendering within human capabilities/limits of presentation" - analogies: the way we project images of 3D objects onto 2D paper using techniques like perspectives or the multi-angle views in engineering -> "an accurate 2D version of 3D"; or the way humans represent accurate data concerning the multiple dimensions - including those that exist beyond our 3D (or 4D world) - with matrices.]



Traditional Hindoo sculptors, painters and other Hindoo artisans are *trained* in depicting the Gods shastraically, they don't deviate from accuracy in the essential features. Just like, say, the particular item in the Umamoorty's hand is no ordinary flower - not placed there at "random" by the Hindu sculptor at all, nor to make her appear more daintily feminine or some such - but it is *meant* to be in her hand (the same is also there in many an Ardhanaareeshvara depiction): Uma is described as holding it in her 2-armed form, and Hindus know it to have most particular meaning and significance.



The purpose of accurate (i.e. Shastraic) depiction is Hindu religion. Facilitating the practice of Hindoo religion by Hindoos is the first and foremost purpose of traditional Hindoo artisans in making the sacred images: to produce imagery of the Hindoo Gods that, being accurate, is immediately recognised by Hindoos (including the sculptor himself) as correct presentations of the Gods themselves - even full embodiments in the case of moolamoorties etc - such that the Hindoo viewer is reminded of his Divine Parents. E.g. In this case, the Hindoo sees the moorty, instantly recognises Uma, remembers her and falls into an automatic and natural contemplation of his Mother Uma. <- As explained, the Hindoo viewer thereby ends up Practising Its Hindoo Religion.



Like I said: Hindoo-made imagery of the Hindoo Gods is Hindoo religion. Not art or mere aesthetics at all. To reduce Hindoo imagery to the latter is to view Hindoo imagery=religion as an alien. E.g. The Hindoo knows well that Uma's form is Identical to her: Identical to her Identity, her Divine Nature. The Hindoo's recognition of her form is no less than automatic worship of her. <- That is what the *Hindoo* sees (who is the only legitimate viewer of Hindoo imagery). And what Hindoos see/how they view the images of their Gods (and Temples, which are likewise the very embodiments of the Hindoo Gods - literally) versus what aliens and alienated/deheathenised see are entirely different not to mention unrelated. Actually, this is exemplified in the speaker IIRC at one point expanding on his claim - that the Uma-moorty is a supposedly aesthetically-pleasing exaggeration of the general feminine form - by saying that Parvaty's form as depicted in the moorty (i.e. your Mother's own form) *would* have been that of a mere pin-up were it not for the artist coupling it with poise.



Stating the obvious:

To view your "idols" correctly (as your ancestors did) is the prime ingredient in "idolatry" - it is what makes heathens the Ueber-kafirs. When gradual subversion (self-inflicted or externally-instilled, makes no difference) takes that "idolatry" away from you, you have lost your heathenness. I.e. you've lost absolutely everything. Because it's a one way street: there Is no way back. In heathenisms, the Right (heathen) view of - which is therefore coupled with the understanding of - the Gods is everything: because it is the very practice of heathenism. And the loss of it is the loss of heathenism.

Christianism knows this. The de-heathenising never seem to know.

Heathens have what the aliens don't have and can never acquire, despite all the thievery. It begins with retaining a heathen (in our case: Hindoo) mind/view.

[Husky]

Post 2/2



2. No one else disturbed by the fact that the speaker was offended that "Nataraja bronzes" were sold for just a few millions while some western art - which the speaker didn't admire - sold for hundreds of millions? I.e. the speaker was offended that (presumably) aliens didn't sufficiently admire the [superiority of] the Hindu works of so-called "art".



Yet anyone *Hindu* would have objected to Nataraja imagery being sold as keepsakes at all - and worse to *aliens* (or at best, to the deHinduised) most likely: because who else but "art collectors" would be buying these things for such grand figures as if it were but an acquisition hobby to them?



All Nataraja vigrahas (when made by Hindus alone, the rest are not Nataraja depictions - and only pretence - no matter who claims otherwise) - all Hindu-made imagery of Hindu Gods belong to the Hindoos' Gods alone, and hence to their heathen Hindus alone. No one else has the right to keep vigrahas of Hindu Gods.* This isn't art. And these aren't heirlooms either.

[* Should emulate how China does not allow other countries to keep its Pandas: they're all planned to be returned to China.]



What's not clear from the video is whether the Nataraja bronze that went for millions is an ancient one or made in our time. I.e. whether such pieces were ancient Hindu sculptures being stolen from Hindu Bharatam to become some art collector (or museum's) possession. This is theft and anti-Hindu. (And selling of modern Hindu-made Natarajas to aliens' hands is still anti-Hindu.)





1 and 2 was enough to make me stop watching the video: taken together it is far worse than a certain Tamizh Hindu blog that subverted Hindu religious imagery and structures (like Temples and moolamoorties even) into "art", and allowed "participation" of Indian and alien christoterrorists in the "discussion" on Hindu "art".





The speaker's audience in the video looks to be a whole bunch of western people, who he lectures/teaches to "admire" Hindu "art". It's the last thing Hindus need:

• Just like Temples, Hindu imagery is particularly Not meant for alien audiences, tourists, museums, "world heritage" nonsense, "art appreciation" circles, or as examples in the "study of aesthetics" etc. Hindus need to stop allowing Hindu religion to be separated from the expression of it.
  
  
• there are all already too many alien terrorists I mean "collectors" who have been busy stealing - I mean "buying" - and even looting sacred Temple items and moorties.
  
  

[Husky]

The following is all still on the topic of a couple of posts up:



1. [quote name='Husky' date='17 October 2011 - 09:21 PM' timestamp='1318866180' post='113369']there are all already too many alien terrorists I mean "collectors" who have been busy stealing - I mean "buying" - and even looting sacred Temple items and moorties.[/quote]

bharatabharati.wordpress.com/2011/09/02/european-american-museums-fortified-havens-for-plunder-radha-rajan/

European & American Museums: Fortified havens for plunder – Radha Rajan



And that led to the original article at http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDispl...px?id=1924

which gives an example for the following:

a certain Tamizh Hindu blog that subverted Hindu religious imagery and structures (like Temples and moolamoorties even) into "art", and allowed "participation" of Indian and alien christoterrorists in the "discussion" on Hindu "art".

Indian christoterrorist example (Varghese is a Syrian Indian christo name). Note how it speaks of "our temples" and has been busy playing art-appreciating/critiquing tourist at Hindu temples (who invited it?), all while lecturing how Hindus can't maintain their temples and mentioning temples and museums in the same breath:



http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDispl...px?id=1924

Indians, while they pretend to be very religious and tradition- minded, have no sense of history or tradition. Just look at the way [color="#0000FF"]our[/color] museums, temples, archaeological sites, and historical places are maintained. Even privately maintained places are no exception. [color="#0000FF"]I have been to Chidambaram temple[/color] in 2004, and right at the entrance I could see the washed clothes of the inmates of the temple strung out on a cloth-line! Inside one could see the fly infested tube-lights in PVC boxes, and every corner inside the compound reflecting shabbiness and neglect. [color="#0000FF"]Birla temples (no historical value, though) and places like Tiruchi Ganesh temple (Uchhimalai Swamy, I think maintained by the Govt.)[/color] are notable exceptions. The new religious places (of all religions) built by the nouveau riche are garish, ostentatious displays of wealth and nothing more.

varghese

21 Aug 2011

Can't christoislamics stay in their churches - already mushrooming all over the place? They just have to go out of the way to invite their uninvited selves to Hindu temples. It's not enough that they have already stolen the position of govt, English language media and subverted education in India (besides having stolen a lot of Hindu Temple land), they have to inflict their mindvirus-infected selves into Hindu temples, even as they work to destroy it from outside too (e.g. christists are working to destroy the same Chidambaram Kovil that the above christo haunted "visited").







2. [quote name='Husky' date='17 October 2011 - 09:21 PM' timestamp='1318866180' post='113369']

No one else disturbed by the fact that the speaker was offended that "Nataraja bronzes" were sold for just a few millions while some western art - which the speaker didn't admire - sold for hundreds of millions? I.e. the speaker was offended that (presumably) aliens didn't sufficiently admire the [superiority of] the Hindu works of so-called "art".

[...]

What's not clear from the video is [color="#0000FF"]whether the Nataraja bronze that went for millions is an ancient one or made in our time.[/color] I.e. whether such pieces were ancient Hindu sculptures being stolen from Hindu Bharatam to become some art collector (or museums') possession. This is theft and anti-Hindu. (And selling of modern Hindu-made Natarajas to aliens' hands is still anti-Hindu.)[/quote]

I had to know. And I think I managed to find out at last (don't know when the video was made, but the auction is from 2007):



- blog.cleveland.com/reviews/2007/04/cma_buys_rare_and_expensive_in.html

CMA buys rare and expensive Indian statue

Posted by Steven Litt, Art critic April 03, 2007 15:32PM



[color="#800080"][image caption][/color] Photo provided by Cleveland Museum of Art

This statue of the Hindu god Shiva, purchased at auction by the Cleveland Museum of Art, [color="#0000FF"]cost $4 million, a record price.[/color] The Cleveland Museum of Art has revealed it was the secret buyer of [color="#0000FF"]a rare, 1,000-year-old Indian sculpture of the Hindu god Shiva, sold by the Albright-Knox Art Gallery in Buffalo in a highly controversial auction[/color] on March 23.



Bidding at Sotheby's in New York through the London art dealer John Eskenazi, the Cleveland museum paid $4.072 million for the work, a record price for an Indian sculpture.



"I'm elated," Timothy Rub, director of the Cleveland museum, said Monday by phone from New York, calling the sculpture a new centerpiece of Cleveland's highly regarded collection of Asian art.



"This is the crowning of my career," said Stanislaw Czuma, who retired in 2005 after 33 years as the museum's curator of Indian and Southeast Asian art, and who urged the museum to buy the work. "From every level you approach it, this is a fantastic acquisition."



In a written statement, Martin Lerner, a retired curator of Indian and Southeast Asian art at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, called the Shiva "one of the most important Indian sculptures to have come on the market in recent memory."



Carved and polished in dark gray granite, the life-size sculpture depicts the Hindu deity Shiva, known as "the Destroyer," as he shares identity with the deity Brahma, known as "the Creator."



Czuma called the work a superb example of best artistic period of the Chola Dynasty, which dominated southern India from the 10th to the 13th centuries.



The Albright-Knox set off a bitter civic controversy in Buffalo last year when it decided to sell the Shiva and dozens of other important pre-modern works to raise money for its relatively modest endowment of $58 million.



"We sort of went through a war here," said Louis Grachos, director of the Buffalo museum.



In March, a N.Y. State Supreme Court judge dismissed a last-minute lawsuit filed by an ad hoc group called the Buffalo Art Keepers, which tried to stop the auctions.



[color="#FF0000"]The Albright-Knox has raised $22 million so far by selling works of ancient and Asian art, with the Shiva fetching one of the highest individual prices.[/color] The museum will use the money to boost the portion of the endowment restricted to art purchases and will focus on buying works of Modern and contemporary art, its principal focus.

[color="#800080"](Don't ya just LOVE how thieves sell it legitimately to other thieves - they're all part of the same robbers' den - and make their transactions all legal and binding, and pretend it's above board?

Yet if tomorrow Hindoos were to waltz in and take it away from the aliens, Hindoos would probably be thrown into prison.

The way that Hindoos trying to pilgrimage to the ancient Hindoo Cave Temples and attempting to get Darshanam of the Hindoo Gods there are spoken of as "tresspassers" at something called 'Indian' "archaeological sites".)[/color]



Grachos said there was "absolutely" no other way to raise millions of dollars for the endowment than by selling artworks that no longer fit the museum's core mission.



He said he was delighted that the Shiva will go to Cleveland, rather than in a private collection or a museum overseas. Knowing that the work is a short drive away from Buffalo takes some of the sting out of the sale, he said.



"Although it's left home, it's not gone far away," he said.



Rub said he hoped to exhibit the sculpture later this year alongside other important works from the museum's collection of Indian art. The museum is mostly closed for a $258 million expansion and renovation, although it is open for special exhibitions and classes.

[color="#800080"]("Indian art"? The moorty is NOT "Indian" "art".)[/color]



The Albright-Knox [color="#FF0000"]acquired the Shiva in 1927 as a gift from a donor[/color] who bought it from the respected dealer, C.T. Loo. The work's "provenance," or ownership history, places it beyond the reach of contemporary laws aimed at preventing the looting of ancient artworks.

[color="#800080"](Most convenient. Must be a "diplomatic immunity" type principle.

So can anyone explain it to me: if Hindus steal it back, then BY THE SAME PRINCIPLE, we must be beyond the same "contemporary laws", right? Especially as we would thereby be Undoing the Looting of Ancient Artworks? Hey, we could be like the Supra Robin Hoods: Steal back from the Thieves to Return To the Rightful Owners. I really like this idea. Think everyone: How can this be implemented?)[/color]



Czuma said the [color="#FF0000"]sculpture probably adorned an outdoor niche on the north side of a major temple in southern India[/color], but it is not known when the work was removed. [color="#FF0000"]He said it was the finest of a group of five major stone statues[/color] of Shiva as Brahma acquired by American museums before World War II.



The sculpture combines the attributes of Shiva as the destroyer and Brahma as the creator to encapsulate the Hindu belief in death, reincarnation and progress toward perfection, Czuma said.



In the sculpture, Shiva is sitting on a double lotus blossom. He has a third eye and four heads, each looking in one of the cardinal directions, Czuma said. The deity's four arms indicate his special powers. Two of his hands hold a lotus and a rosary. The other two hands are positioned in gestures of blessing and teaching.



"The carving is fantastic," Czuma said. "You almost feel the flesh of the image. It was a really great master that created it."

Look. Isn't that cute? They all admire the ... aesthetics and execution of the image - its carving - and its "great master who created it".

Isn't everyone happy now? Doesn't it Make It All Better?





3. In 2003: How sweet, moorties of Hindoos' Gods made by Hindoos are on display for aliens to "admire" their aesthetics and skill.



www.cleveland.com/contests/cma_chola/

Special airfares to Cleveland from most major cities in the U.S. are provided by Continental Airlines. Enter the Cleveland Museum of Art and Continental Airlines ticket giveaway for your chance to win two free round-trip tickets to anywhere in the continental U.S. Complete the entry form below for your chance to win!



The Sensuous and the Sacred

Chola Bronzes from South India

July 6 - September 14, 2003



Discover the beauty of more than 60 temple sculptures from the 9th to 13th centuries, when religious devotion and love of life fused in a style of rhythmic grace and spiritual power. Don’t miss your opportunity to see this first major exhibition of the art of Chola bronzes in Cleveland!



Tickets: Adults $7. Discounts for members, students and seniors. Call 216-421-7350, outside Cleveland call 1-888-CMA-0033, or visit clevelandart.org.



Museum Hours: Tuesday - Sunday 10 a.m. - 5 p.m., Wednesday and Friday, 10 a.m. - 9 p.m.



Audio Tour: [color="#FF0000"]Enjoy a fascinating and lively self-guided audio tour exploring the stories behind the magnificent sculptures. $5 [/color]

[color="#800080"](Maybe they will play the audio of that video in the background, teaching the aliens to "admire" Hindu "art". No?)[/color]



Museum Store: [color="#0000FF"]The Chola Bronzes Store features the stunning exhibition catalogue, fabulous jewelry, posters, music CDs, and much more! Visit our store online at clevelandart.org/store for convenient 24-hour shopping.[/color]

[color="#800080"](Merchandising! Step right up! Get the mug, get the T-shirt, get the FABULOUS JEWELRY And POSTER and um the Music CD. What is on the music CD...)[/color]



Directions: Located in University Circle, the Museum is three miles south of I-90 using the Martin Luther King, Jr. Drive exit. Just follow the University signs marked “Art Museum.”



For museum information, call 1-888-CMA-0033 or visit www.clevelandart.org.



The exhibition is organized by the American Federation of [color="#FF0000"]Arts[/color] and the Arthur M. Sackler Gallery, [color="#FF0000"]Smithsonian Institution[/color]. The exhibition is supported by the National Endowment for the Humanities and [color="#FF0000"]The Rockefeller Foundation[/color]. Additional exhibition support is provided by Gilbert and Ann Kinney, and the Benefactors Circle of the AFA. The catalogue is supported by the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation. The Cleveland showing is supported in part by Malcolm E. Kenney and the Malcolm E. Kenney Special Exhibitions Endowment Fund. Promotional support is provided by The Plain Dealer, City Visitor, and WCLV 104.9 FM. The Cleveland Museum of Art receives operating support from the Ohio Arts Council and the Institute of Museum and Library Services.

Smithsonian -> Has the Hope diamond belonging to a moorty of Sita, IIRC.

And I think I recall Rockefeller and Smithsonian working hand in hand often against India's Hindu religion.





4. The nightmare grows. Check out the image in the next one. Acquired by the same museum in 1961 from an alien terrorist's "collection".



www.cleveland.com/arts/index.ssf/2008/07/to_witness_sherman_lees_legacy.html

[color="#800080"][Photo caption:][/color] Cleveland Museum of ArtSherman Lee posed with a pair of early 10th-century Chola-period Hindu bronzes acquired by the Cleveland Museum of Art in 1961. Lee, who directed the museum from 1958 to 1983, boosted the depth and quality of its holdings, including its world-famous Asian collection.

[...]

With more than 4,000 objects, the museum's Asian holdings range from superb Chola-period Indian bronze sculptures to stunningly beautiful Japanese folding screens

All this reminds me of those American soldiers - the pinnacle of American heroism no doubt - who killed Afghan kids and other unarmed innocent civilians and then posed (grinning) with the dead bodies of their victims and collected their bones as trophies.

Vind je ook niet?





Actually, all this equally reminds me of the kind of Indians who - in speaking of Hindoo moorties of the Hindoo Gods made by Hindoos (for Hindoos alone) - have a tendency to divorce these things from Hindoo religion. Because they treat Hindoo religion as a dead heirloom also.

But they can't say the aliens don't *equally* appreciate the artistic and aesthetic value in all this. Proof? The aliens collect it (still): to the tune of 4 million dollars even. <- Must mean the aliens appreciate it more, no? And that the aliens therefore deserve it more?

If these are heirlooms - but *I* never said so - then they are ultimately the heirlooms of all the world equally (especially with aesthetics being Universal), nietwaar?





5. www.royalacademy.org.uk/exhibitions/chola/shiva,305,AR.html





And the caption:

01shiva Shiva as Nataraja (Lord of Dance), eleventh century, bronze, height 111.5 cm. The Cleveland Museum of Art, Purchase from the J. H. Wade Fund, 1930.331. Photo: © The [color="#FF0000"]Cleveland Museum of Art, Purchase from the J.H. Wade Fund 1930.331 Shiva as Nataraja (Lord of Dance), eleventh century, bronze[/color], height 111.5 cm. The Cleveland Museum of Art, Purchase from the J. H. Wade Fund, 1930.331. Photo:

If loot belonging to another heathen population ever came into my hands, I would seek the quickest way of restoration. That is how the heathen respects the religious works of others (and puts their admiration into context/perspective): by respecting the work, the religion, Gods and people behind it - by putting it back in the hands of those to whom it (correctly) means the most. It may be very beautiful - it may be an accurate image of Great Neptune Poseidon himself - but when it concerns religion, it is no plaything, no trifle, no art even. It is the breath of life of others. Just as the above mentioned moorties are to the Hindoos. The Hindoos are not dead yet. But the alien and Indian terrorists certainly treat them that way.

Even the aliens' argument/arrangement against looting is only in those terms: "to prevent nations from looting the 'antiques' (heirlooms) of other countries."

Yet these moorties - mistaken for antiques - are part of the Living Religion of the ethnic Hindoos.



But it is an exclusively heathen view to know that the Right thing to do when in possession of other heathen (i.e. religious) treasures is to Return what belongs to Other heathens. In contrast:

- The christo(conditioned) alien view is always one of appropriation and pretence that it rightfully belongs to them: they will excuse their theft with how they have the greatest admiration for it and will look after it best (so they "deserve to keep it" - a la the brit argument about the "Elgin" loot taken from the Greeks). The aliens may have acquired it "somehow" - perhaps even shadily - but will argue that now it's all in black and white (the christo "finders keepers" principle). It's also related to why the aliens dabble: they imagine they have a right to do so - that it's all universal - or that it's Actually Theirs (owing to oryanism).

- Meanwhile, the alienated native's view is to treat all Hindoo religious stuff as if it is to be thrown open to universal admiration. "All must learn about how to rightly appreciate it."





But Hindoos may know who to blame if more items get stolen/looted "sold" to aliens. The first blame lies with those of (supposedly) your own kind who "universalise" everything.

Without them, the alien terrorists would still loot, of course - as they had in the past - but the subverted natives who are today welcoming (even encouraging) alien "admiration" have extended the aliens an Invite now and have been encouraging sales to the highest bidder: "please admire our moorties", "please learn to recognise the artistic genius and 'history' behind it and so learn to bid higher". (Quite like all those Indian salesmen selling Yoga or Bharatanatyam to aliens, or those entities who have taught aliens to Dabble In What They Have No Business In.)







Anisha Astrology said (previous post):

it is beyond doubt that hindu religion is oldest

Assertion without proof.

[HareKrishna]

We can say that the outside has also great influence over India.

Domes and micro-decorations of 10-13 century jain temples are an islamic influence over indian art.

The hindu victory towers are influenced by islamic minaretes.

The saree and other indian dress as we see it today was heavily influenced by islamic customs.Before islam ,indians were almost naked.

The colors of indian dress and colors applied to indian southern temples were introduces by islamic traders.Before muslims indians have very few colors of their own.

Islamic stone palaces replaced indian wooden palaces.

Rajput ceramic is mimicked from the chinese ceramic.

Water mill and carpet making,turbans was introduced in India by muslims.

[acharya]

Hinduism spreads in Ghana, reaches Togo

IANS | Nov 6, 2011, 10.15PM IST



Article

Comments (32)





Read More:Swami Krishnanda Ji Saraswati|Essel Ji|African Hindu Temple



ACCRA: From just two dozen people in the mid 1970s to 3,000 families now, Hinduism is spreading in Ghana and has also made its way into neighbouring Togo.



Hindu worship began to grow in Ghana after African spiritual leader, Essel ji, was initiated by Swami Krishnanda ji Saraswati into the Holy Order of Renunciation in 1976, said Kwesi Anamoah, national president of the African Hindu Temple here.



"Today, there are 2,000 to 3,000 families worshipping all over the country which is a big increase from the 24 people who participated in the first-ever training camp in 1976 to become disciples," Anamoah said.



"We have not achieved this through the winning of souls as other religions do, but have attracted people into the practice of Hinduism simply by the lives we lead," he said, adding: "Our lives shine in the community to attract people."



Christians form nearly 70 percent of the 24 million population of Ghana while the population of six million in Togo includes nearly 30 percent Christians and 20 percent Muslims.



Anamoah said that the practice of Hinduism as a religion and its unique philosophy is helping to change the lives of those who have accepted the faith.



He said the first ever Hindu monastery has been built in Ghana and it is from here that Hinduism is spreading.



"We do not evangelise like other faiths do, but we have attracted people because they see how we live our lives as Hindus and come to make enquiries and then find their way into our folds," Anamoah added.



He said the monastery annually holds six weeks' training for those interested to become devotees.



"It is a religion that cannot be explained in simple terms...we do not go into the streets to talk to people; rather, they are invited to come and understand."



Anamoah said perceptions about the religion have changed with time.



"We have also been able to change initial perception that Hindu worshipping was cultural enslavement...," he added.

[ramana]

Is there a way to order wrist bands in saffron color to make it cool to wear symbols of Hindusim? I am thinking like the yellow rubber band by Lance Armstrong? How does one get these made? Add some Om type symbols on it.

[Husky]

Is there a way to order wrist bands in saffron color to make it cool to wear symbols of Hindusim? I am thinking like the yellow rubber band by Lance Armstrong? How does one get these made? Add some Om type symbols on it.

Ramana, is this for you or your kids?

Because... look, I don't want to rain on your parade, but I don't know *how* you can make an orange wrist-band remotely cool. (Not even mentioning the OM type symbols.) We don't live in the 80s with their scary neon "OMG I've gone blind" colours anymore. (I'm talking about if you're living in the west. In India one can wear nice colours and it's just perfectly fine.)

Maybe you can convince your kids to wear your family's tilaka if in India, and if they're living overseas they can wear it whenever they're at home? Nothing takes on as much as that which makes us more attractive: and a bindi or kungumam with veeboothi or namam certainly makes all Hindus more kallai. Plus bhasmam and chandanam smell dreamy. Rudraksha armlets look rather attractive on men. So does the poonal come to think of it (have to be shirtless for that to work though...) Obviously none of those things are remotely fashion gear, being Hindoo stuff - they're just different things various Hindoos traditionally wear and which just additionally/coincidentally happens to make them look extra kallai.

And the accessorising girls/women (at least those in Bharatam) surely can't say no to any or even all of: Earrings, noserings, toerings, necklaces, armlets, bracelets, anklets. Various hair jewellery. Or especially flowers in the hair - smells yum again. Not to mention looking rather prettily Hindoo.





As for statements by the Romanian "HareKrishna" in his post 68 like:

1. On the Hindu saree

The saree and other indian dress as we see it today was heavily influenced by islamic customs.Before islam ,indians were almost naked.

On Saree being Hindu since the Vedam, see for example posts 146 and 147 of the Indian Dress Styles thread. But the Romanian was already made aware of that in that thread itself. So why he has to pretend he doesn't remember now, remains a "question".

Similarly churidar type clothes - including male tunic + pants - as seen in ancient Indian sculptures, were also discussed long ago, probably in that same thread.





2. The Romanian also claimed:

turbans was introduced in India by muslims.

Apparently Megasthenes of Indika fame thought otherwise? (Would go towards explaining why the "Alexander" film featuring Farrell in the lead had Indians with turbans, I suppose...)

http://sowingseedsofthought.blogspot.com...orist.html

This brings us to recorded history of travellers of antiquity. One such travelogue which has survived the ravages of time is the Indika by Megasthenes which became a reference guide even to later day travellers such as Arrian and Strabo. Megasthenes was the ambassador of Seleucus Nikator, Satrap (Governor) of Alexander the Great for middle east and Asia minor (Turkey) to the court of Indian Emperor Chandragupta Maurya and travelled extensively around India from 250 BC to 298 BC. In his book Indika Megasthenes minutely describes the people, customs, traditions, attire, food religion, laws, geography, fauna, flora and all other possible details that he ecounters while travelling around India from Pentapotamia (Greek for land of the five rivers present day Punjab) to Patalibotra (Patliputra, present day Patna) to Kanyakumari in the south to Serendib (Lanka).



In his description of the people of India he clearly states that they are tall but lightly built (lean) dark skinned with black long hair which they tie in a bun on top of their head and wear turbans with twisted cloth.

[color="#800080"](Hmmm, I'd have expanded on Indian men's light build as *lanky* rather than merely "lean"... Nice look that. Dark and lanky.)[/color]

[...]

There ya go, a type of "turban" existed among the natives of India - or so said the ancient Greek - long before islam even existed. Or christianism, for that matter. Or all that came after.





3. Google "sudheer birodkar" again. He states the Buddhist dome influenced the islamic dome matter-of-factly, but still, hard to argue that Buddhist domes predate islamic ones...

- the Gumbaz that we see on mosques all over the world

originated as the interlocking dome in the "Stupa" of

the Buddhist architectural tradition of India.

Jain, Buddhist. Doesn't matter. But it wasn't islamic.



Hindu and Jain pillars were stolen to make islamic minaret structures (I think the Qutb Minar - or however one is to spell it). Hardly islamic credit to steal other people's pillars, dump it together and say "voila, islamic masterpiece/innovation." Here I'm *assuming* "minar" bears some relation to minaret. The photo of the QM certainly looks like a minaret to me -

The Kutub Minar built by Kutub-ud-din Aibak. The Kutub Minar is one of the earliest Islamic monuments in India. This Minar was built from the columns of destroyed Hindu and Jain temples. It stands at the site of Pithoragarh which was the capital of Prithiviraj Chauhan, the last Hindu ruler of Delhi.The damaged motifs in this picture show clear Hindu origins - a testimony to the vandalism of the Muslim aggressors. There are many such temples which had been converted into mosques like the Bhoja Shala Mosque, the Gyan Vyapi Mosque, the Krishna Janmabhoomi Idgah, apart from the now liberated Ramjanmabhoomi at Ayodhya. The total runs to 3000 (Three Thousand).

[...]

The Quww'at-ul-Islam Mosque (Power of Islam).

This Mosque which stands in the Kutub Minar complex was built by Kutub-ud-din Aibak, the first Muslim ruler of Delhi. The Quww'at-ul-Islam Mosque (Power of Islam) is the first mosque erected in India by Muslim invaders after the Islamic aggression of India. This Mosque was built with the columns from destroyed Hindu and Jain temples. It stands at the site of Pithoragarh which was the capital of Prithiviraj Chauhan the last Hindu ruler of Delhi.

The rest of the Romanian's post was yet more assertions without evidence. No one needs to refute conjecture that goes against known status quo: it stands as a lie (not even mere gossip) until proven with verifiable and irrefutable documentation. What's that they say again? Onus is on the claimant (i.e. offence) side - not on the defence side: Hindus have got the sarees, etc. Buddhist stupa domes were around long before islam and this apparently influenced islamic mosques. In any case there can certainly have been some mutual influence between Buddhist and Jain temple structures, without having to imagine islamic influence?

Besides, lots of the so-called islamic-style architecture is owing to kidnapped heathens "slaves" building it.

[Husky]

Anyway. What I came for:



Related to posts 64, 65 (66) -



Not the most ideal source, but it's in English and it's brief. Most importantly, it allows me to say: Look how my lips are not moving -

Sculpturing of the Images

[...]



Hinduism considers, as in other fields of life, the sculpturing of images, especially of Gods and Goddesses, as a sacred religious act. Hence, the shilpi or the sculptor, is expected to bind himself with deekShA and certain vows.

[...] the one and only source and support for his work of art is the dhyAnashloka of that particular Deity. These dhyAnashlokas describe the features (of that God) as revealed in the mystic vision of the R^iShi to whom the revelation came. That is why the sculptor is commanded by the shAstras to lead a well-regulated and pure life as per the prescribed norms (the same (prescribed norms?) as deekShA), and repeat the dhyAnashloka mentally as much as possible and pray to the Deity to reveal His/Her Form. Gradually the revelation comes. The form seen in such revelations is called mantramUrti. It is this form that the sculptor ultimately reproduces outside in stone or other material.

This deekShA is of two types: ekANDa and pakSha. The former applies to such cases where the sculptor works continuously until the image is completed. When that is not possible, and the work has to be done intermittently, the latter mode is adopted. However, even in the latter case, mental devotion and seriousness of purpose has to be kept up.

When all the rules pertaining to deekShaa are meticulously observed, the sculptor will succeed in infilling the image with a subtle power of life as it were.



The most important aspect of sculpturing an image is a thorough knowledge of pratimA-mAna-lakShaNa (the special characteristics and relative measurement of an image.)

[...]

(usw)



Even in the above can see hints of:

1. why only Hindu-made moorties of the Hindoo Gods are the Sole moorties that represent the Hindoo Gods.

2. that accurate (Shastraic) depiction matters. To the Hindus. Else it isn't the Hindoo Gods.

3. why moorties of Hindoo Gods and the process of fashioning their likenesses are *not* mere "art" or "aesthetics", but Hindoo religion.

4. why the Hindoo - obviously skilled, talented, creative, trained - who fashions the moorties does not consider himself some mere "artist" in the act, but a Hindoo bhakta: that is his foremost and overriding identity, at all times.

5. that Hindoo moorties (like temples) do not remotely belong to aliens, or any alienated (including not just christoislamics but also the deheathenised).

6. that the moorties which traditional Hindus make of their Gods are hyper-accurate (direct transfer from the Rishi's vision of the Gods captured in the dhyana shlokas, which Gods then reveal themselves to the artisans' inner being, which is what he then brings out in the moorti). So while the moorties may look "aestethically pleasing" or like "artistic genius" to the outside world, the Hindoos know it is much much more than this - it IS the Hindoo Gods - and where the credit lies: in the Hindoo Gods and in the Hindoo artisan's deep connection to its Divine Parents.



I know that traditional Hindoo artisans still sculpt, paint and illustrate in *this* manner.

[Husky]

A suitably cynical addition to this thread. On "How yoguh is taking the world by storm! Look how far the Hindus have come: how they have spread their 'culture'!"

Can thank the Indian salesmen of the Hindu brand (half of them even strip the Hindu label off of the 'products' before selling these to all and sundry).



Yoguh takes its rightful place at last: centre-stage on some reality-tv spat, in tacky tabloid "glory".



www.indianexpress.com/news/kim-kardashians-naked-yoga-session-sent-kris-humphries-packing/881923/

ANI

Kim Kardashian's naked yoga session sent Kris Humphries packing

Posted: Tue Nov 29 2011, 12:47 hrs



Kris Humphries was left furious after he walked in on his former wife Kim Kardashian, her sister and friends taking part in a yoga session with a naked male yoga instructor on their reality show.



Kardashian, 31, and Humphries were seen coming to blows during the season premiere of ‘Kourtney and Kim Take New York’, which was aired on US television on Nov 28.



Only the male instructor bares everything in the yoga session.



Even though the reality star keeps her clothes one, the basketball star is not happy about her being in the company of a naked man.



That is disgusting,” the Daily Mail quoted him as saying.



“This is my home. This is disrespectful.



[...]

[Husky]

Directly related to posts 64, 65, [color="#0000FF"]66[/color] and 71 above - else this next is far off from the topic of this thread.



Aliens who had kidnapped a Shiva moorti have been conducting "scientific experimentation" on it to work out how the Hindoos had fashioned it. This is another aspect of their "art appreciation".





http://haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx?P...305&SKIN=W

Shiva Natarja statue in Netherland Museum. Demand return of the statue to the temple where it belongs.

21/01/2012 06:18:27 Dr S Kalyanaraman



Pratima of Hindu Divinities worshipped in temples should NOT become museum pieces. If Museums have to play their role in educating about heritage, this can be accomplished by using replicas instead of taking the sacred pratima away from temples where they rightly belong.



Such museum-mongering is sacrilege. Sacrilege is the violation or injurious treatment of a sacred object.



This image of Shiva Nataraja is said to be 1,000 years old. Such pratima are normally installed and worshipped in temples. Govt. of Netherlands should inquire and ascertain the temple from which the pratima was taken. The pratima (statue) should be returned forthwith since a temple is a temple forever and pratima of devata should stay in the temple where the sacred installation took place.



[color="#0000FF"]See a related post http://bharatkalyan97. blogspot.com/2011/09/petition- in-london-court-asking- british.html. blogspot.com/2011/09/petition- in-london-court-asking- british.html This states the imperative of British Museum returning thepratima of Devi Saravati to Dhar, Bhojashala where the devotees are worshipping an empty niche and are on a round-the-clock prayer vigil asking for the re-installation of Sarasvati pratima there for continued worship.[/color]

[color="#800080"](Never doubt that India's heathens - the Hindoos - love their Divine Parents=the Hindoo Gods (Virinchi-Patnee in this case).

What RSmith quoted Gibbon as saying of Julian applies here.)[/color]



Kalyanaraman, Sarasvati Research Center.





Jan. 16, 2012

Ref:

P E R S B E R I C H T

PRESS RELEASE . PRESSEBERICHT . COMMUNIQUE DE PRESSE

POSTBUS 74888

1070 DN AMSTERDAM

TELEFOON 020 6 74 70 00

TELEFAX 020 6 74 70 01

PRESSOFFICE@RIJKSMUSEUM.

NL

WWW.RIJKSMUSEUM.NL



Amsterdam, Jan. 10, 2012





Dancing Shiva X-rayed





Indian masterpiece shown to be solid bronze

[color="#800080"](It's not "Indian", it is (ethnic) Hindu religion - "ethnic" added in to make it clear that it does NOT belong to dabbling alien "collectors" who fancy themselves "Hindus".

There is a reason it's important to *always* make the differentiation between what is called "Indian" and what is actually (ethnic) Hindoo.)[/color]



Research recently revealed that the Rijksmuseum’s monumental bronze statue of Shiva was cast in solid bronze. [color="#0000FF"]The thousand-year-old temple statue was X-rayed,[/color] along with the lorry transporting it, in the most powerful X-ray tunnel for containers of the Rotterdam customs authority. It is the first research of its kind on a museological masterpiece.





At 153 cm x 114.5 cm, the Rijksmuseum’s Shiva is the largest known bronze statue from the Chola Dynasty (9th to 12th century) kept in a museological collection outside of India. Given its weight (300 kg), the statue has always been suspected of not being hollow, as has been common practice in Europe since the Greek Antiquity. As part of an earlier investigation, an X-ray was taken of the statue in a Rijksmuseum gallery in 1999 while visitors were evacuated as a precaution against radiation. Unfortunately, the equipment used at the time (280 KeV) was not powerful enough to determine anything definitively. The Rotterdam X-ray tunnel of the Rotterdam customs authority offered a solution. Normally used to scan sea containers for suspicious contents, the high-energy digital radiation (9.3 MeV) offers sufficient resolution and range to distinguish between a 1mm copper wire and a 30 cm piece of steel.



The Rijksmuseum renovation project has provided conservators and curators the opportunity to carry out in-depth research on special pieces from the Rijksmuseum collection, including this masterpiece from the Asian Art Collection. The statue was created ca. 1100 in South India. This region, the area that is now the state of Tamil Nadu in particular, is famous for its impressive Shiva temples, the most important of which were erected during the rule of the Chola Dynasty (9th to 12th century). Each temple had its own set of bronze statues which were carried through the city during major temple festivals. This gives the statues their name: utsavamurti, which is Sanskrit for ‘festival images’. Chola bronzes were considered masterpieces of Indian bronze casting.



Anna Ślączka, curator of South Asian [color="#FF0000"]Art[/color], comments, ‘We had expected that the statue itself would prove to be solid, but it was a complete surprise to discover that the aureole and the demon under Shiva’s feet are also solid.’



According to the literature, there is always at least one hollow element. A solid statue is much heavier and costly than a hollow one, and the high volume can cause damage to the bronze due to shrinking occurring during cooling. This solid bronze Shiva is evidence of a high level of mastery of bronze casting, as well as just how highly prized such statues were in the Hindu faith. Thanks to this research, it has now been possible to determine the date of the statue more accurately. [color="#0000FF"]With a view to conservation work,[/color] the research has also revealed useful information on the statues' condition.

[color="#800080"](They have the nerve to call their theft and interference "conservation" work. If people haven't noticed, such a statement pretends that Hindoos are already extinct.

Otherwise, they'd have admitted that the only conservation would be conservation of the living Hindoos' living religion, which in this case is to Give Back the Shiva moorti to the native (i.e. ethnic/ancestral) Hindoos.)[/color]



The appointment of the curator of South Asian Art, Anna ÅšlÄ…czka, was sponsored by Staal aan Zee, Tata Steel B.V., a named fund of the Rijksmuseum.



For more information:

Rijksmuseum

Press Office

Jacobien Schneider

T. +31(0)20-6747330

E. pressoffice@rijksmuseum.nl





X-ray of the Shiva statue in the lorry. The dark solid shading indicates solid bronze casting.





http://tinyurl.com/6ndg9v2

Of all those who are to blame, the nastiest is the nearest. I.e. the treacherous. In this case: the class of pompous self-conceited Indians who encourage the viewing of sacred Hindoo imagery/the moorties of Hindu Gods as "art" instead of what it actually is (religion), because that is all they themselves are able to see. They probably found the Dutch experiment in dissection and inspection of the Shiva moorti - to ascertain whether any part of it was "hollow as in the literature" or not - to be "interesting" and provide "valuable and important insight".



The Shiva moorti belongs to *Hindoos* alone. Not to aliens OR the alienated. (It was fashioned by Hindoos, not by the alienated. The two are not related.)

[shamu]

[url="http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-01-24/rest-of-world/30658872_1_hindu-temple-temple-premises-vietnamese-buddhists"]Vietnamese celebrate New Year at Hindu temple[/url]

BEIJING: A flood of Vietnamese are flooding a Hindu temple in Ho Chi Minh City during the 7-day Tet festival that began last Friday, according to Indian residents of the city and local Vietnamese.



More than 50,000 people, almost all Buddhists, prayed at the Mariammam Temple through the day and the entire night during the Vietnamese New Year on Sunday. The flow continued through Tuesday with several thousand local people visiting each day.



"The local Vietnamese believe that worshiping at this temple during the New Year festival will bring good luck," Atul Kumar, a businessmen who has been in HCMC since the 1980s told TNN.



A visitor from India reported that people were observing both Hindu and Buddhist rituals to please the gods at the temple.



"There was a scramble of people offering 'prasad' as the main door of the sanctum sanctorum opened last midnight. There were several thousand Vietnamese Buddhists. They were all praying with deep belief," B.S.Subramanyam, a chemical engineer from Chennai told TNN over phone.



Local Vietnamese are making oaths and offering 'prasad' in the belief that Hindu gods are generous about granting the wishes of worshippers. Food offerings are being made to idols of several gods and goddesses including Lakshmi, Muruga and Ganesha besides the main idol of goddess Mariammam.



This is among the three Hindu temples in Vietnam's biggest city, which has less than 1,000 resident Indians. The Mariammam temple draws the maximum number of local worshippers besides serving as an officially approved tourist's destination.



All the temples were built nearly 150 years back, when the city had a thriving community of Indian businessmen dealing in silk and spices.



Vietnamese worshippers applied red vermilion on their foreheads after making offerings of flowers, coconuts, betel leaf, dried rice and candles to the different gods at the Mariammam temple.



Many visitors burning three to five feet long incense sticks filling the temple premises with thick smoke, which is how worshiping takes place in Vietnamese Buddhist temples.



All the temples were built nearly 150 years back, when the city had a thriving community of Indian businessmen dealing in silk and spices.

[Husky]

^ <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> Happens to Daoist temples all over SE Asia too. Laity likes the religions of the Gods.





rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2012/04/idea-called-shiva.html



Some piece titled "Idea called Shiva" by Devdutt Pattanaik (who has clearly never seen a Hindu God, so no point my reading his opinion. If I want to learn about Shiva, there's always a gazillion ancient stotras on him by *actual* heathens who *know* their Gods.)

But there were 2 comments and wanted to know what they thought of Pattanaik.



Pasting the first comment, as it's related to earlier posts in this thread. Look how someone else said it:

seadog4227 said...

Two points:

(1) Ramana Maharishi used to always say that Shiva was the destroyer of all sins.

[color="#0000FF"](2) Mantras reveal much more than mere "ideas"; the oblation and the invocation show forms exactly as enshrined in our temples.[/color]

Exactly. Basically said in 1 line what I was aiming for in posts 64, 65, 71.

(But then they do say that intelligence lies not in verbosity in conveying ideas, but in brevity in doing the same. I lose. Nothing for it then, but to get rid of all the competition in order to win at last...)

[RomaIndian]

edit

[balai_c]

Buddy, first of all the word "Adivasi" is sort of a literal translation of the English word Aborigines which according to Wikipedia means "from the origin" or native or indigenous to a landmass. Now, the quandary is that,if Adivasis are indigenous , then are we, the other Indians immigrants? This picture is provided to us by the fairy tale of the so called "Aryan Invasion Theory". But recent genetic studies and lack of an evidence of an invasion from archeological sources have basically sealed this conjecture. Long story short, all Indians are native to this landmass called Bharat or Aryavarta for the last 60,000 years. And besides Indian society had a separate name for them, called Vanavasis ( for communities living in forests) , and girijans (for peoples traditionally living in mountains). We are all Adivasis , i.e indigenous to this great civilization.





As to the second part of your question, yes, educated net savvy Indians are indeed aware of the plight of the Roma people , and the savage persecution they had to go through in the so called civilized Europe. We are aware they you guys did emerge from India somewhere in the mid 16th century, and in time arrive in Europe. Unfortunately most Indians are not aware of them (those without internet surfing capabilities). You have to appreciate that India herself had to go through unimaginable suffering in the last thousand year. It is only now that Indians have some breathing room for activities outside basic survival. You can be certain that if India's per capita income , defense capability , economic muscle reaches a certain threshold, and if nationalists can have uninterrupted reign for a fair amount of time, Mother India would indeed extend a helping hand to her helpless children every where in the world.

[RomaIndian]

[quote name='balai_c' date='07 June 2012 - 07:52 PM' timestamp='1339094641' post='115036']

Buddy, first of all the word "Adivasi" is sort of a literal translation of the English word Aborigines which according to Wikipedia means "from the origin" or native or indigenous to a landmass. Now, the quandary is that,if Adivasis are indigenous , then are we, the other Indians immigrants? This picture is provided to us by the fairy tale of the so called "Aryan Invasion Theory". But recent genetic studies and lack of an evidence of an invasion from archeological sources have basically sealed this conjecture. Long story short, all Indians are native to this landmass called Bharat or Aryavarta for the last 60,000 years. And besides Indian society had a separate name for them, called Vanavasis ( for communities living in forests) , and girijans (for peoples traditionally living in mountains). We are all Adivasis , i.e indigenous to this great civilization.





As to the second part of your question, yes, educated net savvy Indians are indeed aware of the plight of the Roma people , and the savage persecution they had to go through in the so called civilized Europe. We are aware they you guys did emerge from India somewhere in the mid 16th century, and in time arrive in Europe. Unfortunately most Indians are not aware of them (those without internet surfing capabilities). You have to appreciate that India herself had to go through unimaginable suffering in the last thousand year. It is only now that Indians have some breathing room for activities outside basic survival. You can be certain that if India's per capita income , defense capability , economic muscle reaches a certain threshold, and if nationalists can have uninterrupted reign for a fair amount of time, Mother India would indeed extend a helping hand to her helpless children every where in the world.

[/quote]



Ok i fully agree with this since i reject the Aryan Invasion Theory and thanks for your support. I didnt know the literall meaning of the Word "Adivasi". So they are Vanavasis,i know now ok. For me Rroma are not those People and everything else is for me a made up claim, no matter how much "evidence" might get brought forward by the "Intellectuals" and "Reality&Word Twisters". Thanks once again.

[balai_c]

I can provide you with a few articles in a rather interesting and authoritative blog to whet your appetite.



[url="http://2ndlook.wordpress.com/2011/11/29/prince-charles-related-to-impaler-vlad-surprised/"]Prince Charles related to Impaler Vlad – Surprised?[/url]

How Prince Charles is linked to Indian gunpowder ingredients that reached Roma Gypsies in early 15th century, giving them victory over the armies of royal Europe and the Church. Central European newspapers yesterday were alight with speculation that the Prince of Wales could be anointed the next King of Romania if the country’s monarchy is restored.



The last royal ruler, King Michael was forced to abdicate by the country’s new Communist leaders.



Romania went on (for) decades of communist government, most notably under dictatorial party leader Nicolae Ceausescu who ruled the country with an iron fist from 1965 until 1989.



The deposed King, Prince Michael, is still alive – albeit rather elderly at 90 – and has family of his own.



Despite the reintroduction of democracy, in recent years there have been increasing calls for the monarchy to be restored. (via Prince Charles could become king… of ROMANIA after revealing he is related to Vlad the Impaler | Mail Online, parts excised for brevity).



But … naturellement



Prince Charles claims descent from Vlad the Impaler (1431–1476); popularly and more famously known as Dracula was intermittently the ruler (between 1456-1462) of Wallachia.



Coming from a dynasty that has spilled the most blood in the history of the world, it is not surprising if Prince Charles is related to Impaler Vlad, the Dracula. Responsible for two world wars, many wars in Europe, genocides in Australia and America, millions of deaths in colonies (like India, Kenya, Malaysia), it is no surprise that House of Windsor (Prince Charles’ family) is related to Vlad the Impaler. Can it be forgotten that a little more than a decade ago, Prince Phillip (father of Prince Charles), contested the number of people dead at the Jallianwala Bagh firing?



After years of academic suppression and Hollywood misdirection, the story of the true Dracula is obscured. So, why did Vlad, the Impaler, give such gruesome deaths, impaling tens of thousands of people? Who were these ‘victims’ and how many such people died?

Dark Ages – that never went away



For answers, we need to go back a hundred years (1409) before Vlad the Impaler.



After centuries of persecution by the Vatican, people in Eastern Europe, proposed changes in Church and its systems.



The mass-movement for Church reform was led by a University rector, Jan Hus (1369 – 6 July 1415), from Bohemia. Between the King and the Church, Jan Huss was tricked into ‘peace-talks’ with the Church, where he was captured and burnt at the stake (1415).



Large parts of Czechoslovakia, Romania, Eastern Germany rose in revolt against the killing of Jan Hus – till war broke out.

Time for War



Led by a brilliant military commander and diplomat, Jan Zizka.



Zizka was able to ensure an alliance between the two main reform factions – the Calyxtenes and the Taborites. This alliance defeated the combined armies of royal Europe and the Church, in many battles, and waged war for nearly 15 years (Hussite Wars-1419-1434). These battles, collectively known as Hussite Wars cracked open the authority of the Church.



The role of the Taborites in the Hussite Wars was of great importance. Taborites were migratory camp-people, who moved their camps in wagons and roamed Europe. The Taborites turned their wagons into armoured vehicles – and fought behind massed wagons. These Wagonbergs, made of armoured wagons, had one major element that gave them superiority. The Taborites using gunpowder, pounded the Church forces with fire.

Gunpowder it was



Gunpowder was a rare and mostly unknown element in the poor and backward Europe of 15th century.



India was the largest manufactory of gunpowder elements. And a major element of the commercial chain were the Banjaras. In 1656 British traders based at Surat, ‘inquired from Anthony Smith at Ahmedabad about the possibility of getting saltpetre from the Banjaras’. While the governor of Gujarat, Prince Murad Baksh, ‘oppressed the Banjaras so much that they gave up their trade in saltpetre’.



Banjaras are known as Roma Gypsies in Europe. The Roma Gypsies brought gunpowder to battle – and with their wagonbergs, ensured defeat of the combined Church and royal forces of Europe.



It was the the Hussite Wars that started Europe’s lurching movement over 400 years to end Church persecution and limit Church authority. From the death of Jan Hus in 1415 to the end of Napoleonic Wars (at Waterloo, in 1815), who had earlier enforced ‘secularization’of Europe.

[url="http://quicktake.wordpress.com/2012/05/12/gypsy-music-a-rediscovered-heritage/"]Gypsy music – a rediscovered heritage?[/url]

Modern and classical Western music is solidly based on the music tradition, structure, repertoire, of the Roma Gypsy.

Folk songs from Eastern Europe were a strong inspiration for the great composers Leos Janacek and Bela Bartok. Both of them travelled through the countryside – Janacek in the Slovak-Moravian borderland, Bartok in Transylvania – and recorded village singers using wax cylinders – the only equipment available at the time. The material they collected is still much sought after.



Yet this fieldwork is far from finished, and more musical gems still remain to be discovered – at least in the Roma settlements of Slovakia. These poor and muddy villages are probably the closest place to Western Europe, where Roma have managed to maintain their lifestyle untouched by urban life.

No wonder many Roma, who have settled in Czech towns have warm feelings for these villages – it’s where their relatives come from. Also, many songs now made famous by the Roma divas Vera Bila or Ida Kelarova come from these desolate regions.



Jana Belisova has spent the last 14 years travelling to these places, recording old Roma singers and musicians in their homes. But it was not until last year that she managed to launch her first CD Phurikane Gila and a beautiful book with some stunning pictures. At 38 years old, she is one of the leading experts on Roma music in Slovakia (via Radio Prague – Magic Carpet: Gypsy music – a rediscovered heritage?).

[RomaIndian]

@balai C, thanks.