Indian Missile News And Discussion

[balai_c]

Arun sir, in a recent NDTV panel discussion, C Raja mohan has been complaining of the fact that china has more missiles than us , with greater numbers,and also strikingly, :quality. Would you please offer your valuable comments on this? I would be much obliged. What is your take on this observation? Thanking you in advance!

[Arun_S]

Keeping busy, limits my time to do detailed analysis. Will post my views in pieces.



IMHO satellite launch capability is being mis read by media. The craft can only place very small satellite in low earth orbit. Hardly of military value (mil value sats are RISAT type weighing few humdred Kg in 900 km orbit.)



OTOH what the spokesmen are saying is that the craft is capable of placing few hundred kg sats in low earth orbit; a.k.a this missile is a full range ICBM (>20 K Km reach) that can place a half tonne warhead any corner of the world. I am surprised no one has caught on this clear statement.

[ramana]

Arun, Two reports from Hindu(TSR & YM) and TOI (Rajat Pandit) say terminal velocity was 7km/sec. The re-entry was powered with the conical motor! MARV(ellous) I would say.



And ICBM velocities in non-MARV mode.

[Arun_S]

[quote name='ramana' date='20 April 2012 - 04:13 AM' timestamp='1334874923' post='114698']
Arun, Two reports from Hindu(TSR & YM) and TOI (Rajat Pandit) say terminal velocity was 7km/sec. The re-entry was powered with the conical motor! MARV(ellous) I would say.

And ICBM velocities in non-MARV mode.
[/quote]





http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india...739130.cms



Great!!!



These two report confirm:

1. The third stage was conical

2. Third stage fired during re-entry, meaning it did MaRV/BgRV

3. 7 km / sec re-entry speed meaning its a full ICBM

4. precision of few meters (not few tens of meters)

5. All three stages were composite motors. Not clear if all three stages were carbon composite or only the upper stage was carbon composite. That pumps up teh mass fraction of these motors in high 90 percents, tremendously increasing the total impulse delivered to payload.



"Quote:

These included rocket motor casings made up of carbon composites, the motors contoured to suit the missile's shape, high-performance navigation, guidance and control systems and rail/road mobile launcher.



.... .. Dr. Sekaran, the chief designer of the missile, stressed that the rocket motor casings made up of carbon composites gave the missile a better performance.



6. the 3rd stage was carbon composite, meaning it was capable of taking on Max-Q temperature stress during powered BgRV style flight profile.

7. IOW flight was BgRV to make it ABM resistant:



Quote: DRDO has also worked to reduce the radar and other ''signatures'' of missiles like Agni-IV and Agni-V to make them ''much more immune to counter-measures''.

[Arun_S]

On MaRV or BgRV terminology:



1. Since the third stage was separate from RV, it acted much like BgRV. This way 3'rd stage only sees Max-Q-temperature and not over-designed bulk for Max-Q-pressure.



2. After 3'rd stage is expended it is separated from RV, that increases the ballistic coefficient of the RV. Reducing thermal signature as well as radar signature.



3. The shape and size of RV clearly indicates it is capable of MaRV. That further reduces any counter measures possibility.



I say WoW !!!!!

[Arun_S]

NDTV video states that the Agni-V can launch 300 kg satellite in orbit. Clearly means it can do full range delivery for >300 kg payload http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the-9-o.../229830?hp

[Arun_S]

[quote name='balai_c' date='19 April 2012 - 01:22 PM' timestamp='1334821498' post='114693']
Arun sir, in a recent NDTV panel discussion, C Raja mohan has been complaining of the fact that china has more missiles than us , with greater numbers,and also strikingly, :quality. Would you please offer your valuable comments on this? I would be much obliged. What is your take on this observation? Thanking you in advance!
[/quote]



IMV C Rajamohan is speak the truth w.r.t. the missile force China has arrayed against India. Most of them much superior from the point of robustness because they have tested it umpteen number of times. Even if their accuracy is not few meters the matching warhead makes them a superior weapon.



There is some Indian superiority that is now coming to fore, in terms of accuracy and ABM hardness.



Also please note how many Agni missiles and Agni-warhead we have in hands of Indian defense forces versus what what PLA has now and the logistics experience they have for last many decades. IOW missiel in development and not available in quantity (and trained users) is a missile that is meaningless (irrelevant ) for fighting war.

[Arun_S]

In space program as well ballistic missiles program, the motors, electro-mechnical part, electronics etc are made in batch; typical 5-10 units in a batch. For new missiles the static test usually expends half dozon or so, and for flight test typically has 4-5 units.



In case of Agni-V, the first two stage are common to Agni-3, and A3 has been delivered to forces (albeit temporary stopgap force of A3) thus is in line production with many units in WIP and production spare. So it can be safely assumed that few of A5 are already on bench for testing and couple for initial operational certification. The cost of motor spares as well as other parts, is relatively quite affordable (cost effective).



So surely there are many A3 in hand for use, while few A5 can be test launched and couple to spare for interim requirement.

[Arun_S]

200 Kt relatively light to moderate weight warhead ride atop A-V.(most yield from fission)



The Surya kind of warhead will be proofed very soon. Not a question of if, but when. Indications are, soon.

[Ravi]

No intention to cap missile programme with Agni-5



By Ajai Shukla

Business Standard, 21st Apr 12



After the near-perfect debut of the Agni-5 long-range ballistic missile, which yesterday travelled 5000 kilometres to accurately strike a target in the southern Indian Ocean, Dr VK Saraswat, the Defence R&D Organisation chief, declared that the Agni programme would continue and that there was no question of capping India’s missile programme.



Addressing a press conference in New Delhi, Saraswat said, “Our development needs are based upon today’s threats, and also evolving threats…. So there is no question of capping any programme…. Today, in a short time, we have gone from Agni-4 (launched in Nov 11) to Agni-5, Obviously we have a threat profile which is evolving and I am not sure it will ever remain static. So we are going to continue to develop missiles to meet our future threats.”



The first big enhancement to the successful Agni-5 will involve creating the capability of hitting several different enemy targets with multiple warheads on a single missile. This technology, called multiple, independently targetable, re-entry vehicles (MIRVs) is already being developed by the DRDO.



Dr Avinash Chander, the DRDO’s chief controller of missiles, explained that such a missile would be “all-composite”. The Agni-5 has three stages, with the second and third stage built of composite materials. The next missile will have a composite first stage as well, making it lighter and, therefore, able to carry a heavier payload than the 1.5 tonne payload of the current Agni-5.



According to DRDO sources, an MIRV payload would be significantly heavier, since it would consist of several nuclear warheads, each of them weighing about 400 kilogrammes. A 5-warhead MIRV, therefore, would weigh two tonnes.



“The primary modules of MIRV are in an advanced stage of development. Realization and integration of them into a weapon is just a question of threat perceptions and the need as it arises,” said Chander.



Saraswat laid down a two-year time line for the Agni-5 to enter operational service. “We will do two more validation tests, which should take about 1½ years. After that, we will begin production (of the Agni-5) and we will start handing it over to the military. Once they have it, they will do some launches for their training as well. This will take about two years.”



The DRDO chief revealed that the missile was 80% indigenous, with just 20% consisting of “those components which are easily available as part of the electronics components industry.” He stated that the missile does not contain a single critical component that is under embargo.

[balai_c]

[quote name='Arun_S' date='20 April 2012 - 11:56 PM' timestamp='1334945934' post='114703']

IMV C Rajamohan is speak the truth w.r.t. the missile force China has arrayed against India. Most of them much superior from the point of robustness because they have tested it umpteen number of times. Even if their accuracy is not few meters the matching warhead makes them a superior weapon.



There is some Indian superiority that is now coming to fore, in terms of accuracy and ABM hardness.



Also please note how many Agni missiles and Agni-warhead we have in hands of Indian defense forces versus what what PLA has now and the logistics experience they have for last many decades. IOW missiel in development and not available in quantity (and trained users) is a missile that is meaningless (irrelevant ) for fighting war.

[/quote]



So, when do you believe would the large scale manufacture of our ballistic missiles begin? Would we be having individual MRBM ,IRBM , ICBM, or would there be one missile (like AGNI 5 ) serving all the purposes of a battlefield commander? Thanking you in advance!

[Arun_S]

[quote name='balai_c' date='21 April 2012 - 05:09 PM' timestamp='1335007902' post='114709']

So, when do you believe would the large scale manufacture of our ballistic missiles begin? Would we be having individual MRBM ,IRBM , ICBM, or would there be one missile (like AGNI 5 ) serving all the purposes of a battlefield commander? Thanking you in advance!

[/quote]

War fighting as well as deterrence requires a set of weapons best suited for a range of options.



IMHO:

1. SFC will use A-1 for short range. Prithvi will transition out fully to battlefield use.
2. Agni-2 is a stopgap, but there is quite some inventory in hand and will be kept in inventory till final weapon set is in place.
3. The final weapon set is to for desired set of ranges, warhead mass and yld options, robustness, hardened to counter measures, in a cost effective architure, built on re-use, economies of scale, and skill.
4. Agni-2-AT( now officially called Agni-2 prime) of which we have seen maiden flight of Agni-4, will morph to final confign soon. This family based on motor diameter that is bit bigger than 1m dia of Agni-II.
5. Shourya and its navel version is a system to watch out. Great weapon for use without raising escalation ladder. depending on mission profile max range of 700 to 2000 km
6. The master platform is missile family built on 2 meter dia motor.
7. ---- 2 stages of 2 m dia. missiles: Agni-3 and its MIRV variant Agni-3C, with or witout small upper motor (SUM).
8. ---- 3 stages of 2 m dia: Agni-V and its varient: Agni-3A, Agni-3B, with and without SUM.
9. Submarine launched large dia MIRV missile Agni-3SL (possibly be called K-4) will have large dia motors (2 m dia or 2.4 m dia) and a SUM

[Ravi]

Arun sir i am not a expert on missiles but have basic knowledge on how a rocket works. I am have seen ISRO videos about rocket's, but have some doubts with regard to missile...



1.Sir can u plz mark the stages of Agni v missile, i am really confused with it and i am not able to differentiate in the pic.

2. When and at what altitude does the stage separation take place.

3. What is importance of each stage.

4. Is there any propulsion in warhead or does it re-enter atmosphere only bcoz of gravitation. If there is no propulsion in the warhead and its just the gravitation theory, what guides the missile to correct it self and attack the target.

[Guest]

[quote name='Arun_S' date='19 April 2012 - 10:26 AM' timestamp='1334810925' post='114691']

http://drdo.gov.in/whatsnew/AGNI%20A5-01.wmv

http://drdo.gov.in/whatsnew/AGNI%20A5-02.wmv



Surprising to see that first stage burn time is 90 seconds, as against my expectation of 55 seconds. Indicates that DRDO has figured out realization of squeezing high density into available F/S volume. Something that French did only few years ago for their sub launched missile.

[/quote]



There are two headlines in HT



India downplayed Agni-V's capacity: Chinese experts

Chinese media continues to belittle Agni test



I think Chinese are not surprised, but they know India will keep them busy and now time had come to use Pakistan to keep India busy.

[Arun_S]

[quote name='Raviprakash' date='22 April 2012 - 07:49 PM' timestamp='1335103882' post='114713']

2. When and at what altitude does the stage separation take place.[/quote]



One can know this if only trajectory data is made available by DRDO, but given it si restricted information, we can only estimate possible values from known inofrmation in weight, payload, stage-1 burn time, peak altitude and fligth time.



From which I know for sure that it was not a pure ballistic flight ; IOW the re-entry vehicle did glide upon entering atmosphere. a.k.a its did a BGRV trajectory at end of ballistic phase.



So the approximate is:



Stage ---- Altitude ---- Velocity

Stage-1 -- ~25 Km -- 1.4 Km/sec

Stage-2 -- ~150 Km -- 3.7 km/sec

Re-entry velocity - 7 km/sec

4. Is there any propulsion in warhead or does it re-enter atmosphere only bcoz of gravitation. If there is no propulsion in the warhead and its just the gravitation theory, what guides the missile to correct it self and attack the target.

Yes there are small thusters to control vehicle attitude during atmospheric flight for both BGRV phase and MaRV phase.

[vasu_ray]

Arun, assuming a 2.4m dia solid fueled missile with no constraint of height such as for an SLBM, and say is about 20 metres in height, leaving out the optimal configuration and other details, what will be the rough estimate of its throw weight into LEO, is it even approaching PSLV in capability?

[Arun_S]

[url="http://ibnlive.in.com/news/agni-v-tested-only-for-5000-km-range/250971-60-118.html"]Agni V tested only for 5,000 km range

[/url]

Apr 22, 2012 at 07:11am IST



COIMBATORE: Defence Research

and Development Organisation (DRDO) R&D Chief Controller A Sivathanu Pillai on Saturday made it clear that the Agni-V, India’s first Inter Continental Ballistic Missile (ICMB), was tested only for a range of 5,000 km and not beyond at the Wheeler Island in Odisha on Thursday last.



At an informal interaction with journalists, when asked Pillai about China’s claim that the Agni V missile could reach targets in Europe up to a range of 8,000 kms, he said “Agni V has been tested for a range of 5,000 km. Further, extending the range or even testing the capability for an extended range will be considered only after political and diplomatic deliberations.”



To a question on China’s pronouncement that India would stand no chance in an overall arms race with her neighbour, Pillai said: “I am not a diplomat to retaliate to what China has said. But I assure that we are self-reliant in the guided weapon system.”



Pillai, who is also the founder CEO of the BrahMos Aerospace, a unit of the DRDO which is developing a stealth cruise missile that can steep-dive vertically at the target at supersonic speeds, said the third stage of BrahMos (Block III) test has given desired results in incorporating precision for high manoeuvres at multiple points when it is developed eventually.

Estimating trajectory based on GoI/PTI issued data, BgRV section was fully tested, simulations seem to agree with above assertion of somewhat more then 5000 km range. >5K & <6K

[Arun_S]

[quote name='vasu_ray' date='23 April 2012 - 12:46 AM' timestamp='1335121738' post='114717']

Arun, assuming a 2.4m dia solid fueled missile with no constraint of height such as for an SLBM, and say is about 20 metres in height, leaving out the optimal configuration and other details, what will be the rough estimate of its throw weight into LEO, is it even approaching PSLV in capability?

[/quote]

Too open ended question. Orbital payload is highly sensitive on massfraction of upper stages and many other factors (E.g. will all the stages be composite carbon made? ).



No, it will not approach PSLV capabelity.

[Arun_S]

Some useful histornics albiet from the man who joined the dark side and wrong side of history.



The last two paragraphs he is selling snake oil by perporting that handful of missiles with 10kt yld will suffice. Someone should ask teh naked emporer, how come his massa does not subscribe to his snake oil doctrine and eliminate all assembled and dis-assembled nuke (and burn the fuel in civil reactors), and just go nude with handful of 10 kt bums !!



He is parroting his masters voice. So much of the self proclaimed India's missile man <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /> <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />



K. Subramaium should not have soiled his own name by co-writing an article with this slithering snake, in last years of his illustrious life.



[url="http://www.deccanchronicle.com/360-degree/agni-mrs-g%E2%80%99s-wish-fulfilled-india%E2%80%99s-missile-man-603"]Agni, Mrs G’s wish fulfilled: India’s missile man[/url]

April 22, 2012 By Dr V.S. Arunachalam



The caption of this piece should actually read 'mission accomplished' but for the bloomer President George Bush made in 2003 when he claimed victory well before the skirmishes in Iraq died down! But the missile story is really one of accomplishment of a mission that DRDO embarked three decades back.



In 1982, DRDO embarked on a major transformation transitioning from working on minor innovations that brought in no recognition, to major hardware development. A portfolio of missiles, Light Combat Aircraft, main battle tanks are the products of this transformation. There were also a few more top secret projects.



It was an audacious move when we were not even sure whether we had the competence and wherewithal to execute the programmes. But then we recognized that if we did not cash in on the opportunity that the political leadership, most notably the Defence minister Venkataraman and Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, provided we would have lost a window of opportunity to become a self reliant nation in military technologies.



We took our proposals to Cabinet Committee on Political Affairs for the sanction. For the missile programme, we chose four projects, two surface-to-air (Trishul, Akash) missiles, one a short range tactical missile (Prithvi) and the last one was an anti-tank missile (Nag). We took a deliberate decision not to propose a long range missile as a hardware project.



Instead, it was going to be a technology demonstrator where we would develop a number of technologies that go into the making of ICBM.



When Mrs Gandhi was curious to find out what technologies we were not confident of, I replied, “every subsystem”! She smiled saying that she was happy to hear at least once, an acceptance of ignorance, but wanted us to build the advanced systems that could stand in competition with other countries’ hardware. She said that she was tired of buying military systems from other countries that were not willing to either sell state-of-the-art systems or share the technology know-how.



Even before that approval we were quietly circulating photographs of long range missile models to people at South Block. The photographs of the models were impressive and I suspect either Arun Singh or Rajiv Gandhi had seen the designs and photographs and briefed the PM of our audacious aspirations!



Our programmes began in the frostiest years of Cold War. Even the import of desk-top computers with some special features invited export clearances and bureaucratic oversight. Quoted products suddenly vanished from supply. Attendance at technical conferences was denied. But we persisted forming a consortium approach where all the nation’s laboratories and industries became our technology partners. With the firing of Agni-5, DRDO has arrived developing all the technologies, the wish that Mrs Gandhi expressed many years ago.



A guided missile is a conglomerate of thousands of complex technologies. Complex technologies are primed to perform a well defined activity efficiently and reliably.



Unfortunately, if they fall short of performance, the results can be failures, often with unacceptable consequences. Reliability is therefore all too critical. In Agni-5 we used solid propellant in all three stages and with a guidance system using ring lasers along with strap down inertial navigation system. Ring laser gyro is considered most efficient and accurate for detecting angular rotation and enables stabilization. It was used even during the testing of Agni-3, but this time it provided the extra redundancy that has enabled the accuracy of trajectory and stability of the guidance system.





The terminal system used carbon-carbon compositesfor the structure that could withstand the burning reentry temperatures keeping the payload cool. In addition to very high temperatures, the missile in its terminal phase would experience very high acceleration due to free fall known as the g force that can break any poorly built system. The results show that while impacting at the designated area, the missile successfully withstood both the re-entry temperatures and very high g force.



Agni-5 has proved and validated solid propulsion system, stage separation, accurate guidance and met the range requirements.



Actually, we have done slightly better than China in the sense that some of Chinese ICBMs ( DF-5) for instance, are liquid fueled with its attendant disadvantages.



We learnt the tricks of the trade with no past to educate us through. And the investments we have made in all these technology are modest. Now we have learned how to develop and build new systems faster than in the past. But by delaying the sanction of new projects, I fear we will lose the corporate memory and the experiences of precious human resource. It is this human resource that has brought us this far. And the country salutes them for the competence and commitment it brought into the programme.



DRDO may fire a few more missiles to prove their reliability in performance. When it comes to strategic systems it is not necessary to manufacture hundreds. A [color="#4b0082"]handful[/color] will do as they carry nuclear weapons that can inflict unacceptable damage on adversaries.



Even a single 10 kilo ton bomb, within 0.8 km radius of a city would completely wipe out the population in that area. In a medium city with a population of a few lakhs, about 50,000 people would die with unacceptable radiation inflicted injuries. Strategic deterrence that would prevent unilateral nuclear attacks is therefore necessary.



With a successful test, Agni-5 has ensured this security for India.



Dr Arunachalam is former Scientific Adviser to Defence Minister of India)

[Guest]

[url="http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_india-cut-agni-v-range-under-nato-pressure-chinese-media_1679419"]India cut Agni V range under NATO pressure: Chinese media[/url]

The state-run Global Times which derided the missile even before it was launched saying that Chinese nuclear power is "stronger and more reliable and India had no chance" to catch up said today in yet another scathing write-up that "India has little to celebrate" as China has raced ahead and outclassed India in development.



"The Manmohan Singh government, because of pressure from NATO member countries, has kept a slow pace with their Integrated Guided Missile Programme (IGMP).



"The Agni-V is deemed to be in its final stage, whereas in fact the IGMP ought to have progressed to develop a range of 9,000 km," it said in the write-up posted on its web edition tonight.



Commenting on Sino-India relations, the paper pointed to an international effort to portray India and China as enemies and said the two countries need to make bridges of friendship that would fail such an effort.



"Althought there is an international effort to paint India and China as enemies and to make the two countries go to war with each other, such an effort will fail.



"The Chinese and Indian people share a long history and culture, and what is needed is more discussion between the two about their economics, education, tourism and culture. We must create so many bridges of friendship that the plans of other countries to make China and India into enemies will fail," it said.