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The tactics used by America to destroy (East) Asian society
(Like the Media on Yugoslavia thread, this thread has little or nothing to do with India.)


- It's a thread on how America (and eventually the rest of the west) operates to deconstruct (E) Asian Americans - not necessarily all heathens at all - and even how these things get exported back to their homelands too.

- The reason for the thread is because I think there is a lot to be learnt by Hindus from this: you can see America's Standard Operating Procedure against another population of migrants.

- The persistence of colonialism among Asians and how it is hurting them. And how very deliberate this is.

- How general western* colonialism continues to exist.

[* "West" used to implicitly mean christo/christoconditioned west. Not the ancient heathen west or the current heathens there obviously.]

Some articles were already linked elsewhere, but the bigger picture is quite... a revelation. There are similarities (compare what they face with "South Asian" Studies), there are differences too, and there seem to be foreshadowings of what the west may try/hope to pull on Hindus, even on Hindu society back home via the usual local minions.

Perhaps the most important reason I'm posting this is that I wish Hindu women and not just men - especially those in Bharatam - would somehow learn about these things. I really think they need to know about these things in order to help others as well as become immune to the constantly ascending scale of social engineering.

I want to say in advance that I'm not trying to anthropologise on others (and it goes without saying that I care about E Asians and other populations). I don't mean to "study" their difficulties. Or look at them as some third party alien observer who can't comprehend let alone sympathise. Nor make them into some "lesson" for Hindus. (If anything, I think Hindus are a lesson to other heathens of How Not To Go Down.)

I just want Hindus to see how others besides ourselves are being hurt - by deliberate policies - and the kind of tsunamies the west chooses to create in non-western communities and societies that just want to be. But they don't let them be, of course. Though I really had no idea of the scale of certain matters, that they were this bad. The psy-ops against Asian males is crazy, and that against Asian females is differently so. There are and were lots of articles at the ModelMinority site giving a summary and explaining the essence. A couple of which are here and I hope to repost a few later on, though it's better if people already knew about this things.

The intention is to post a link or excerpt or even full article every now and again.

Some important abbreviations they use:

AF = Asian Female (also as AAF Asian American Female)

AM = Asian Male (also as AAM Asian American Male)

WM = "White" Male (hence WF = "White" Female). I tend to read W for western instead.

IR = the dead serious topic of discussion of Interracial relationships among Asian Americans,

especially the Interracial relationship disparity in Asian American society, where Asian Female/White Male (AF/WM) occurs at an unnatural rate.

[Other terms like "Kingstonians" tend to get explained as one reads through their materials. But let's just say E Asian Americans have to deal with their Romila Tapars and Wendy Donigers.

But I suppose at least they're lucky they don't have that plague affecting India - the AIT/PIE - and can therefore fight as Asians for their own interests, instead of getting consumed by IE into thinking they're oryanits. But where that's concerned, it's too late for Indians. And I'm sure it will only get worse.]
The introduction to the names Kingston and (Amy) Tan.

Apparently these are famous "Asian American Feminists" who write against Asian males at every turn and denouncing Asian culture as "patriarchy", while praising western men (the "WM", "white men") as saviours. Kingston, Tan et al seem to have been crowned (oh but by who) the dominant voices on Asian American society and Asian culture.

Excerpt from:


Quote:Jan 27, 2008

The Fight for Asian American Studies

by jaehwan


This duality has put Asian American culture in a bind. Without the “running start” outside of academia, [color="#0000FF"]much of our Asian American discourse takes place among academics in the Ivory Tower[/color]. There is nothing wrong with being an academic, but the sheer lack of diversity of voices contributing to the dialogue limits the diversity of ideas. [color="#0000FF"]And because our “culture” is rooted in academic postmodernism, our “leaders” often take on typical hostile deconstructionist attitudes that hinder serious dialogue and progress. Rather than trying to understand and interpret history, many of our “leaders” attack history as sexist, racist, classist, or hierarchical, without a thought as to what history might be able to teach us. Many of our “artists” make a living by distorting traditional myths for non-Asian audiences, and our systems reward the people who manage to distort the most history and make the most money in doing so.[/color] Asian American organizations have pushed progressive thinkers like Frank Chin, Shawn Wong, and David Mura to the fringes of our culture, while they have bestowed accolades on people like David Henry Hwang, Maxine Hong [color="#FF0000"]Kingston[/color], and [color="#FF0000"]Amy Tan[/color]. Many of our “leaders” produce and perpetuate stereotypes rather than fight them. They silence our voices rather than encourage us. [color="#0000FF"]The result has been a “culture” geared towards non-Asian Asiaphiles rather than us Asian Americans.[/color] The effect on us has been disasterous. We now have an Asian American population skeptical of its leaders, a population which has trouble getting excited over being Asian American or being part of an Asian American movement, and a people stymied by confusion and mistrust.

There's lots of material worth reading IMO. Don't know where to start posting from (would like to get on to more recent discussions and important points/observations E Asian Americans have been making). But some background may be needed first, to better appreciate/understand the intricacies of the situation E Asians face. To start on the background, then, the following gives a brief glimpse of recent history, and the 'sudden' *mirage* of a great disparity between the mainstream ("white") American attitudes from a recent past against Asian Americans/interracial relationships and their attitudes in the present:


Quote:Asian Women and Caucasian Men: What's the Attraction?

By T.K. Williams


March 1994

Asian/European American heterosexual (and gay) relationships have become commonplace here in the United States. High profile couples such as Kung Fu legend Bruce Lee and his wife, Linda, and journalists Maury Povich and Connie Chung have charmed America and become its pop icons. Hollywood has long been intrigued by forbidden love stories between Asians and European Americans. Americans have been watching films that fall into a variety of movie genres, such as Sayonara, The World of Suzy Wong, Come See the Paradise, Karate Kid II, Rambo, Lover, Wayne's World, and Dragon in which many of them depict "forbidden" love stories between Asians and European Americans, often highlighting the sensual, exotic Asian "Other." Films like M. Butterfly and Wedding Banquet have also dealt with romantic interracial themes between European American and Asian men.

Studies conducted by Dr. Harry Kitano et al. (1973) at UCLA and Dr. Larry Shinagawa et al. (1988) at Sonoma State University indicate that Asian/European American couples are on the rise, so much so that those like Dr. Amy Iwasaki Mass (1992) at Whittier College have called for a redefinition of the Japanese American community to include interracial couples and their children. Terms like "Eurasian," "Euro-Asian," "Amerasian," "Multiracial Asian," and "Interracial Asian American' are becoming part of the American lexicon. Sociologists from the assimilationist school of thought like Milton Gordon and Robert Merton have argued that the high rates of intermarriage with the "dominant group' (that is to say, White Anglo Saxon Protestants) indicate a group's successful integration into mainstream American society. And thus, many have suggested the high intermarriage rates among many Asian groups signal their acceptance by the Anglo majority. With this rising trend of Asian/European American marriages, many people on all sides have been asking, is intermarriage a road to racial/ethnic destruction for Asian Americans or a sign of further Asian socioeconomic success in America?

Although today, heterosexual Asian/European American coupling occurs mostly among Americans of Asian and European descent, respectively, who have met in school or in the workplace, Asian/European American marriages have also taken place within an international context. After the wars in Asia (e.g., the Philippines, Japan, Okinawa, Korea, Vietnam, and Southeast Asia), U.S. servicemen have brought home over 200,000 native Asian women who were termed ' "war brides" (Kim, 1977). The controversial new trend of ordering Asian wives or "mail-order-brides" from a catalogue has also added to the increase in Asian/European American marriages. These Asian women have often been isolated from mainstream American society and outcast by Asian American communities because of racial biases.

Today, Asian/European American marriages seem to be treated as the most acceptable of all interracial unions. While cultural differences are often accounted for, some have questioned whether these unions can even be considered "interracial" as Katherina Young, a second generation Chinese American woman who has been dating a German Jewish man for three years put forth, "Oh well, we aren't different like Black and White people so I don't think you can say we are different races. Maybe some of our cultural views may conflict, but on the outside, we are just people. Sometimes the Chinese can be ethnocentric, but I found Americans treat us like we're no different.' [color="#0000FF"]However, this has not always been the case.[/color]

California, where the large majority of early Asian immigrants settled, passed anti-miscegenation laws which prohibited marriage between European Americans and "Mongolians, Indians, Malays, Negroes, and Mulattoes." These laws remained in effect until after World War II. Historian Paul Spickard (1989) has noted the following states' anti-miscegenation laws as those that had often targeted Asian/White unions: Arizona, California, Georgia, Idaho, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, Oregon, South Dakota, Utah, and Wyoming.

Despite strict legal and social barriers, informal liaisons and life partnerships between Asians and European Americans still developed. For most of U.S. history, the reception of Asian/White unions by European Americans was violently negative. In 1913, the same year that the Alien Land Law was passed to prevent Japanese immigrants from owning land in California, a European American minister named Ralph Newman stated, "Near my home is an eighty-acre tract of land as fine land as there is in California. On that tract lives a Japanese. With that Japanese lives a white woman. In that woman's arms is a baby. What is that baby? It isn't white. It isn't Japanese. It is a germ of the mightiest problem that ever faced this state, a problem that will make the black problem in the South look white." (Spickard, 1989).

In 1878 during the height of the Anti-Chinese Movement, John F. Miller proclaimed, "Were the Chinese to amalgamate at all with our people, it would be the lowest, most vile, and degraded of our race, and the result of that amalgamation would be a hybrid of the most despicable, a mongrel of the most detestable that has ever afflicted the earth." (Takaki, 1989)

In the 1920's, Judge D.N. Rohrbach asserted that, "Filipino men were sensuous creatures, strutting like peacocks and endeavoring to attract the eyes of young American and Mexican girls... The worst part of his being here is his mixing with young white girls from 13 to 17, buying them silk underwear and ... keeping them out till all hours of the night. And some of these girls are carrying a Fillipino's baby around inside of them." (Takaki, 1989). This judge feared that this "present state of affairs" between Filipino men and European American women would continue and create 40,000 half-breeds in California within 10 years. Filipino/European American 'unions, according to him, was "a hybridizing at the bottom, often under the most wretched circumstances of the lower racial stocks." (Takaki, 1989). Finally, many Americans in the Pacific Coast were so alarmed by Filipino male /European American female unions and the creation of mestizo off-spring, congressional hearings were called to limit and restrict Fillipino immigration to the U.S. in the 1930's.

During World War II, along with 119,000 Japanese Americans, many interracially married Japanese/European American families were also imprisoned in camps. While European American women often stayed with their Japanese American husbands and biracial children, European American men remained on the outside, making frequent visits to the camps to see their wives and children. Paul Spickard (1986) has shown that "Among those imprisoned were at least fourteen hundred intermarried Japanese Americans, a few of their non-Japanese spouses, and at least seven hundred people of mixed racial ancestry." After World War II, interracial marriages dramatically rose between native Asian women and European American servicemen, as well as between Asian Americans and European Americans, coinciding with the upward mobility experienced by many Asian Americans during this time period.

Unlike for African Americans in which interracial unions have been largely between African American males and European American females, Asian/White marriages have been overwhelmingly between Euro-American men and Asian/Asian American women. With the increase in heterosexual interracial intimate relationships between Asians and European Americans, many have articulated the role that racial and sexual stereotypes have played in shaping their attractions.

In December of 1990, San Francisco-based Image Magazine created quite a stir among its readers when it published an article entitled, "Asian Women, Caucasian Men: The New Demographics of Love." It cited prominent Asian American women such as writers Maxine Hong Kingston and Amy Tan who all have European American husbands.

Many have blamed media images of Asian females as man pleasing sex kittens and those of Asian males as sexually undesirable patriarchal tyrants as shaping gender images and contributing to the unequal rate of interracial relationships among Asian women and Asian men, respectively.

In the November, 1988 issue of The Tozai Times, Asian male advocate Guy Aoki has written, "Whenever Asian males are shown on TV or in movies, they're always depicted as either the martial arts expert, the bumbling, bewildered immigrant, the philosophizing Confucius, or the socially incompetent oaf, the nerd ... Asian women have not exactly applauded their past images in the media either (forget the Suzy Wongs; they're not there just for the convenient delectation of men). But at least they're generally presented in socially positive lights. Try crawling out of the pits of degradation instead, where you have to try to get people's attention first, let alone their respect."

Aoki continued, "In ads pairing Asian women with male partners, the partner is always a White male, never an Asian one.. Message to Asian women: It's a status symbol or sign of upward social mobility to have a White boyfriend instead. Message to Asian men. Who will want you if your own Asian women don't? White women certainly won't."

In October of 1991, Pei-Chi Chang examined why Asian women are dating White men in his column "Out on Campus" in the Daily Bruin, creating a big hoopla among UCLA students. He put forth, "I myself, honestly, have no real problems with the large amount of Asian female-White male dating in today's society. I have no contentions about interracial dating-I myself am dating a Chicano. But the problem that I have is with the growing number of Asian women who refuse to date Asian men. To me, this indicates a strong discomfort with their own cultural identity." Chang questioned the identity of Asian American women who exclusively date European American men.

Adding his sociological insights, Chang wrote, "What I fear is that these women are not being acculturated (forming a new Asian American cultural identity), but instead are being assimilated (absorbing Westernized values and ideals while discarding their own). They have bought into the Western ideas of beauty and have not held on to their own beliefs. If they had, then they would at least be open to dating Asian men because Asian cultures tend to strictly enforce dating with in their own ethnicity. Why else is there such a high correlation between those Asian women who have bleached hair and wear tinted contacts and the Asian women who exclusively date White men?"

As irritating and upsetting as Pei-Chi Chang's and Guy Aoki's articles may be to individuals involved in interracial relationships but especially to Asian American women who have been accused of self-hatred, unfairly blamed for being 'sell-outs' or pandering to White male "rice queen" fantasies of "Oriental fetishes" and "Asian exotica," they articulate an often ignored viewpoint held by many Asian American males whose self and group images are adversely impacted by negative media stereotypes.

Continues at link with 2 sample 'case studies' of the supposed exceptions:

1. the European guy with Asian wife who wanted to explore his reasoning - if any - in marrying her, and so enrolled in Asian American Studies (itself swamped with the views and teachings of people who are anti-Asian culture and anti-Asian-men, and which the US holds up as spokespersons for Asian Americans and how to view their culture). [Almost like were an alien to take IE Studies to learn more about India/Hinduism/Hindus, or some alien becoming an indologist because he's married an Indian, or who thinks it makes sense for an indologist to marry a 'Hindu' - whatever such people then mean by the word 'Hindu', btw. The inanity.]

2. some guy married to a Korean and speaking about "Orientals" and stuff. Lost *his* credibility - and any neutrality I might have attempted to muster in self-enforced goodwill - in about 2 seconds flat.

Notice the incredible leap from 1. banning "miscegenation" - and not pretending to be anything other than racist - earlier on (and not all that long ago), to 2. the "sudden" sky-rocketing figures of Asian [i.e. E Asian] women entering into relationships with western men in the last decade which preposterously goes hand-in-hand with the utterly false pretence that this now 'proves' that western society/patriarchy is [therefore] "not racist anymore", when it is still racism just by new and different means. After numerous posts, it may become clearer as to why.

Comments discussing at another link show several Asian American men's individual but common experience of some Asian women who tell them to their face that they - not paraphrasing - date "white men only". <= This is not a natural preference, clearly. This unnatural predilection has been instilled by - and this can hardly come as a shock or surprise - social engineering of the Asian women and psyops against the Asian men by who else: the christo/conditioned west.

"Why has the west been doing this, especially since they were so against miscegenation with Asians (as with others) not that far back?" Yes, think.

Will eventually try to paste one or more of the answers offered in some post or other here. But to summarise various discussions related to this (mainly but not only among E Asians):

For once, the stupid pseudo-biological discussions/over-simplifications on "alpha-beta" fit with AmeriKKKan social engineering projects concerning others: i.e. so beta western males who lost out on the alpha western females to alpha western males can at least have access to the Asian females they consider alpha (since "beta western males don't want beta western females and vice-versa"), since so many Asian women are increasingly brainwashed against their own men [to see them as less desirable or even as no competition at all], including those Asian men the west would have formerly labelled alpha E Asian males.

^ That is the more childish western behaviour pattern noticed and really felt/experienced by young E Asian men, but the more serious reason behind the phenomenon is understood to be the deliberate disruption - genocide if you will - of Asian American society by disintegrating its natural male-female dynamic and marriage ["mating"] ratio via alienation of one and eventually both sides from each other. The immigrant Asian American society which naturally wants to preserve its identity in the US is forced into the Melting Pot against its wishes by pre-meditated social engineering, i.e. "outside pressure"/pressure from outside the Asian American community. While this has the advantageous *side-effect* of 'beta western males getting "alpha" Asian females' who would never have cared for them without the brainwashing/social engineering, and the easy "IQ hike" of the western gene pool via influx from the E Asians [<- this is something western supremacists discuss, has nothing to do with my non-views on IQ] even as the same supremacists decry the miscegenation resulting in "Eurasians" (and elsewhere they want to export/promote a preference for "Eurasians" - looks and producing children of such looks - onto Asia, e.g. Time Magazine, which, again, is not a natural preference at all), but still, these are only side-effects or else additional branches of the primary policy which is to bring to nothing the natural tendency/wishes of Asian etc societies to preserve their culturally (which is related to endogamous) identity even as migrants to another nation, but to force it into the American melting pot.

* Still, by all accounts, they're not getting the smart E Asian women... The intelligent ones are still vocalising on behalf of their own communities and seem to insist on intermarrying among Asian Americans and Asians back home - i.e. semi-endogamously: marrying other E Asians is okay, but not western males.** [Others - even some of nth generation born in America - harbour ideas of going back to their ancestral homelands.]

** Note this is not racism (though psyops against endogamous E Asians tries to make it so). This is the primary tendency among ethnic populations in general not just E Asians: they tend to be primarily attracted to their own kind. That's why interracial relationships aren't the overarching norm where social engineering is not involved. (Of course, not counting harems and stuff.)

And E Asian men by and large primarily prefer their own women to others. IMO all populations are naturally geared towards this and it takes unnatural social engineering to alter this natural default preference on a large scale; let alone to make a large section of Asian women specifically *avoid* Asian men, and in favour of western men *exclusively* to boot). The forced-melting-pot tactic has been making some E Asian men abandon their main/default preference - though many feel it remains their primary preference even when they are angry about it (which is why they feel angry about it) - to marrying/dating out too. So the externally-enforced disparity has forced them to react as well in a way that did not come automatically for them. That's not to say they absolutely can't be happy with anyone else, but this was not their choice and they are making it with resentment against their womenfolk (the all-too-many who have been socially engineered and to whom it seems to come so easy to dump the ethno-cultural community and let it stagnate and die).

Skip my comments and read the article, also excerpted at the top of this post:

Still trying to get through the back-catalogue of older articles first.

1. modelminority.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=153:why-do-asian-women-date-white-men-&catid=37:dating&Itemid=56

Quote:What many of the old-timers on s.c.a.a are talking about is the disparity between the number of AF/CM couples versus AM/CF couples. According to an article in the San Francisco Examiner [Look folks! Real live hard data, not just someone's anecdotal evidence.] AF/CM marriages outnumber AM/CF marriages by 4 to 1 in San Francisco. In Sacramento the ratio is 8 to 1.


Given that the male/female ratio in the population is roughly 1 to 1, the 4:1 and 8:1 ratios cited above deviate significantly from randomness. Thus, we reject the null hypothesis and search for explanations.

2. modelminority.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=204:a-threatened-manhood-exploring-the-myth-of-the-angry-asian-male-&catid=37:dating&Itemid=56

Quote:During his freshman year, Kim dated a white woman. The relationship gained him respect from his Asian American male friends, he says, admitting that one of the reasons he went out with her “was a status thing.” And up until a couple years ago, he was impressed when he saw Asian man with a white woman. “I thought, ‘all right, he’s got a white girlfriend.’”

Fellow Lambda brother Kelvin Lin, 22, also prefers to date Asian American women. He notices subtle differences in how Asian women are treated as opposed to their white counterparts, especially by his non-Asian American peers. When he goes to clubs with his white friends, Lin says, he notices they’re more confident with Asian women, and their comments tend to have more sexual connotations.

“When they see an Asian girl, they say things like, ‘I want to get with her,’” Lin explains. “But when they see a Caucasian woman, they make more subtle comments like, ‘Oh, she’s pretty.’”

Though Lin feels uneasy when he sees an Asian woman dating a white man, he says he feels “guilty “ for judging the relationship based on stereotypes and his past experiences. Now, he tries not to be so critical. “As long as the guy is treating her right, I have no problem with interracial dating,” Lin concludes.

‘Asian women are sexualized, men are desexualized and neutered’

Not all Asian American males are that understanding, however. Curtiss Takada Rooks, an assistant professor of Asian American Studies at San Jose State University, says there is a sense of Asian American male frustration as Asian American women continue to outmarry at higher rates than Asian American men, and media bombards society with images of Asian men as either “stern and misogynist” or “effeminate and nerdy.”

“Asian American male frustration is not a myth,” Rooks says. “The frustration, however, is not so much based on marrying out, but rather on the reason women are marrying out. Asian American men feel dismissed by Asian American women, not for who they are, but for what society says they are.”

Social scientists who have studied this phenomenon have found that Asian American women are, in fact, more likely to outmarry. The most recent statistics from the 1990 Census show that Asian American women are almost twice as likely to outmarry than Asian American men. In California, 7.7 percent of the males were married to whites, compared to 16.2 percent of the women.

“That is a huge difference,” says Larry Shinagawa, an Asian American studies professor at Sonoma State University. “Asian men tend to marry inter-ethnically; second- and third- generation men tend to marry first- and second-generation women.”

But those statistics don’t tell the whole story. What Shinagawa and others are also finding is that the outmarriage gap between U.S.-born men and women is closing.

Indeed, statistics in California show18.9 percent of native-born Asian American males were married to white females, whereas 24.8 percent of native-born Asian American females were married to white males. Nationwide, U.S-born American males were more than four times as likely as foreign-born Asian males to outmarry.

More and more, the outmarriage issue is forcing discussions, calling into question race, purity and the changing definition of what it is to be Asian American, says Rooks.

“Asian American males, trying to find their place in this changing society, are impacted by external factors,” he elaborates.

“This is not simply an Asian American male versus female issue. It becomes a family and community issue; the community has to deal with their own prejudices and recognize the community is changing.

“Asian American females and males need to discuss these issues, understanding each other’s strengths rather than emphasizing the weaknesses derived from mainstream images.”

Historically, anti-Asian laws, while robbing all Chinese Americans of their dignity, have dealt a particularly hard blow to men. The Exclusion Act in the 1870s and early 20th century, for example, prevented Chinese laborers from bringing their wives to the United States. By 1900, it is estimated that men outnumbered women by 26 to 1; Chinatowns were bachelor societies, where often men gambled and visited prostitutes. In the media, the Asian immigrants were labeled the “yellow peril” -- a marginalized group characterized as having perverted lifestyles and lacking family values.

Negative media images followed. In 1929, the English author Sax Rohmer wrote the The Mysterious Dr. Fu Manchu, characterizing Asians as villains. Meanwhile, Asian females were often paired with white males in such productions as Madame Butterfly, Sayonara and The World of Suzie Wong -- wrote Doobo Shim in 1998.

Gender differences often determine how Asian Americans interpret these images. Shinagawa gives the example of The Joy Luck Club, a movie he shows to his Asian American students. He says women in his class tend to view the film as a mother-daughter bonding movie, whereas the men are often disturbed by its “myopic view of Chinese men. Asian American men are sick of that movie. It presents the men in such jaded ways, as only concentrating on money,” explains Shinagawa.

“Comparatively, Asian women are sexualized; men are desexualized and neutered,” says filmmaker Steven Okazaki, who wrote and produced American Sons, a movie that examines Asian American masculinity. “These characters have very offensive effects on Asian men and women and on how others see Asian men. We’re in a more enlightened era, yet a lot of those negative images are out there, offensive stereotypes of buck-toothed, nerdy variations. These haven’t changed. To give Asian men hearts and souls and sexuality is threatening in this culture.”

mating habits

These stereotypes created by mainstream society and media, Rooks says, impact the way people, including Asian American women, view Asian males.

“Many Asian males think women are not dating them because they are judged based on stereotypes they can’t control,” Rooks explains, “and that white males are going out with Asian females because of stereotypes that they are exotic and skilled in the sexual arts, rather than for who they are as individuals.”

Rooks’ Asian American male students have said that they’ve been rejected by Asian American women who complain that Asian males “aren’t spontaneous; they don’t laugh; they aren’t tall,” according to Rooks. “Asian men start questioning their identity. They’re asking themselves why they can’t get a date, ‘Is it because I’m Japanese American, Korean American, because of the negative stereotypes, or because I’m a jerk?’”

There’s also a feeling that women are “marrying up and out,” Rooks says. Gordon Milton, who published Assimilation in American Life in 1964, believed intermarriage signified assimilation, as subordinate groups adopted the dominate groups’ culture.

“Conservative theory of the 1960s and ‘70s said that women outmarried as part of the assimilation process,” Rooks says. “Women move first by marrying the men who have the power to marry those they conquer.”

“This isn’t an Asian male society. Whites have access to any sexual relationship they wish,” says Shinagawa, who gives the example of his sister-in-law who was recently approached by a white male. First the man said to her ‘Konichi-wa’ [hello in Japanese]. After getting no response, he said, ‘Ahn young ha sae yo’ [hello in Korean]. She finally felt obliged to say, ‘Oh, that’s good.’ And he immediately talked on and on to her.

“Asian American women get used to that,” Shinagawa says. “I’ve heard variations of this story told over and over by different women. That’s white privilege, being able to look at color, language, race and not the person.

“What if my [Asian American] student sees a good-looking white woman and asks her, ‘Are you English? German? Italian?’ It would be totally out of context. He would have no privilege to do that.”

‘What’s wrong with me?’

Sam Lau, 26, has witnessed that privileged mentality. While a student at University of Wisconsin, he met a few white men who he believes had Asian fetishes. “They didn’t care about the girls’ looks as long as they had long hair and were petite.”

Lau says some of these men would go to extreme measures to meet Asian women.

“I took some Japanese and Chinese classes,” Lau continues. “A lot of white people take those classes because they are interested in the language and culture -- but mainly as a means to meet the women.”

Lau even knew of one man who worked in a bar patronized mainly by Asian Americans so he could meet women.

“I got the feeling it was borderline stalking,” Lau says. “To see them in action is kind of freaky. You see it in their eyes when they look at Asian girls. They see an Asian girl and they perk up.”

Lau, himself, has dated non-Asian women. Growing up, he didn’t know any Asians except for his family and family friends. Later on, however, he found he had more in common with Asian American women. When dating one white woman, he felt a particularly strong cultural gap.

“Asians hold family in higher regard,” Lau says. “When my grandfather got sick I stayed at home more and spent less time with her. She complained, saying I hardly knew my grandfather. But he was my mother’s dad. I wanted to be there for my mom. She couldn’t understand that.”

Now living in California, he has become friends with many Asian Americans, who, he says, “have problems” with Asian women dating white men.

“A lot of Asian guys feel they can’t get white girls because they wouldn’t find them attractive,” Lau says. “When the guys see Asian girls who only like white guys, it makes them feel shitty.

“I can see where they’re coming from. There are some guys who are at the stage where they’re wondering, ‘What’s wrong with me?’”

the standard is white

At 5’ 10” and with what he calls “white features,” Phil Chow does not consider himself an average-looking Asian guy. In fact, more than a few people -- both Chinese and white -- have assumed he is Eurasian. But whenever Chow is rejected by an Asian woman, he suspects it’s because he’s Chinese.

“I always seem to meet attractive Asian women who turn me down for stereotypical reasons,” Chow reasons.

Chow, who is Canadian, didn’t realize he had a unique look, however, until he was in college. The turning point, he says, came on the day he went to eat at a Vietnamese-French restaurant.

“I noticed the waitresses staring at me,” Chow says. “One came over to take my order and asked if I were a Westerner.”

Amused, he went back to the dorms and told some of his fellow students. “They thought I was part white, too. It was the first time I realized people thought I was half.”

But his “white features” haven’t helped him get dates. Most of the Asian women he meets would rather date white men, Chow says. Six years ago he dated a Chinese woman who admitted to him that she “didn’t go out with Chinese men because they weren’t tall enough.”

“I told her she was bull-shitting, that not being tall enough was an excuse,” Chow says. “I told her she was ashamed of being Asian.

“She said, ‘Well, you guys have small penises.’

“I said, ‘You have pancake tits.’

“Then she said, ‘I bet you haven’t gone out with a white woman.’ When I told her I had, she looked at me and said, ‘Yeah, I guess you could go out with a white woman.’

“She implied the standard is white. If you’re attractive enough to go out with a white woman, you’ve made it,” Chow says, explaining that because he looks white, the woman thought it was more credible that he had dated white women.


It's tempting to bring up the similarities and differences with bollywho and Indian media's attempts against the native heathens, heathen society and heathenism, but I may leave that for another day. (Besides, it's not like IF doesn't already know - and better - about bollywho/Indian media.)
Post 1/?

The following set of posts are taken from the blog of an ex-christian Chinese (or Korean?) American, "Big wowo/Jae-whan" ("Byron"?).

At present the excerpts are taken mainly from this page: bigwowo.com/2010/05/asian-women-and-the-invisible-chain

and also a few from: bigwowo.com/2010/05/sister-can-you-lend-an-ear-by-julia-oh/

Want to eventually link to/post from other pages at this and its related blogs.

The comments that give insight into the serious issues they have to deal with are pasted split into section headings rather than all being chronological.


- Some of the comments are angry. And the anger is entirely justified IMO - I'd be quite as angry in their place.

- Not all Asian females are like this, many are very loyal (and most back in their ancestral homelands are loyal, and certainly have been historically). However, there is a large number that is partaking in the phenomenon, and these numbers as well as the racism involved in it is what has led to the anger.

1. Zhang Zi Yi - "Kingstonian Switch"

(Related to what the blog's dubbed the "AFCU"="Asian Female Celebrity Union" - Asian or Asian American female celebs who date white men (only)/marry white men/who brag about it and contrast it with Asian men]

Excerpt from the main article which is on E Asian men's default preference:

Quote:For the rest of us, the situation is hopeless. We’re stuck on Asian women. There’s an invisible chain around our necks, and nothing we do–nothing you do–will change that. Sorry. Asking an Asian man to give up Asian women is like asking a gay man to give up men.

Look at [color="#0000FF"]Zhang Ziyi[/color] in that picture above. [color="#0000FF"]I think it’s clear that judging from her interviews and everything else she’s done (Snow Flower with Hugh Jackman?), she’s made the Kingstonian switch. She’s going to produce Orientalist movies and rob our people blind until all Asian men end up in ye poorhouse subservient to anyone who will be our masters. She used to be all about China and representing China, now it’s all about representing the (White) Man’s interest.[/color]

Note that another page on this blog, bigwowo.com/2009/10/the-secret-of-asian-american-scholastic-achievement/, linked to:


(photo captionSmile "Chinese actress Zhang Ziyi and her boyfriend Vivi Nevo, one of TimeWarner's biggest stockholders, attended a celebration party held by Vanity Fair magazine in Hollywood, 26th February. [Photo: sina.com.cn]"
Et tu Ziyi?

See also

- bigwowo.com/2009/10/the-secret-of-asian-american-scholastic-achievement/

- and bigwowo.com/2009/07/the-end-of-history-and-the-last-asian-man/

for yet another movie to be boycotted by anyone with taste.
Post 2/?

2. Asian men facing "white men only" racism by the brainwashed section of Asian Females who then oddly imagine they're not racist


No one in mainstream media has said it’s not cool to date an Asian woman, but many have said publicly, and consistently, they would rather not touch an Asian guy with a ten-foot bamboo stick. Whether that is true or not, I honestly don’t think it is. The masses are easily swayed trends.

I truly think that anyone that says they wouldn’t date someone of the same race has serious issues internally — out of shear bitterness or self-hate. Pick one. That’s just me of course. Some Asian girl could say she doesn’t date an Asian guy in public all she wants, but part of that is a rejection of her own yellow/brown skin. No matter how attracted she is to an Asian man, she will never admit it to the masses. I’m just talking about those that snub us Asian men in public and not the ones that stand beside us.


Hell, nevermind all these non-existent forums or blogs. Just do a random sample of personal ads from Asian women from an online dating site, pretty much any one will do, and see what you find. The message is clear: you are not wanted (SAF for WM). At best, you are an afterthought (SAF for WM……..or AM).

[color="#800080"][SAF = Single Asian female][/color]


I’ve had Asian women subtly insinuate certain things to me that, if you just stated it flatly, meant “even if things don’t work out between us or if there’s something I don’t like about being with you, it’s OK because I can always count on finding a white guy to replace you”. I was in a relationship with a Korea girl and at one point I was having difficulties with my parents. Asian parents can be a real pain in the ass because they get too involved in your relationships as we all know very well. I mean, that’s an entire topic in itself. Anyway, she said to me, “it would be a lot less hassle if I just dated a white guy”. That what she said. Instead of saying “let’s work through this together” she pulled a” white guy card” on me. I have another friend, a KA just like myself. Some other Korean girl said some really fucked up thing to him also. She said she’d rather hook up with a black guy who’s rich than be with him. This friend was a schoolteacher, btw. The implicit message here is that even a black guy (despite being black,, of course) but as long as he’s rich is preferable to a fellow Asian who only happens to be a teacher. This is what we’re dealing with, fellas.


It PAINS ME when I read or hear these kinds of stories, because I’ve experienced the same kind of crap countless times. I’m sure many Asian men have at one point or another.

Granted, I’ve had some flashes of success with Asian women as well – one night stands, flings, girlfriends, etc. However, in retrospect of the totality of my endeavors these are substantially less than all of the times I heard the \white guys only\ line.

So after reading through all these posts recently and reviewing some of my own blogs I decided to cycle through my entire life and figure out at what point this whole IR dating disparity passed the threshold of fascination to annoyance to sheer contempt. I’ll probably post this on my blog in the near future just so I can empty out all of this negativity churning within, but looking back I can say it all started to unravel my junior year of college. The irony is as a child I truly embraced seeing interracial AF/WM pairings.

Just like <KK> however, I began noticing and receiving this pattern of responses from Asian women I either saw or met on the street, at the mall, in the club, at the bar, in the restaurant, in the bookstore or online. It was like listening to the same 10 songs on your local pop radio station.

[color="#0000FF"]\I only date white guys\

\I like white guys\

\Sorry. Only interested in white guys\[/color]


[color="#800080"]via bigwowo.com/2010/05/sister-can-you-lend-an-ear-by-julia-oh/[/color]

The first time this happened I was on a road trip and had stopped at a 711 type store, somewhere in Houston. As I came out I noticed an Asian girl walking in. Since she was also Asian I presumed that she wouldn’t mind helping a brother with directions. LOL. As I got closer and as I said “Excuse me” she turned her nose up and said “I like white guys” and brushed past me. Then an older white dude who I hadn’t noticed walking just behind her asked me if I needed something and so I asked him for the directions. He seemed happy to help me. Funny thing was, he turned out to be her partner or friend and seemed embarrassed by her behaviour and was actually decent enough to fuss at her for being rude. She blushed and blinked sheepishly.

The second time this happened was even more bizarre. A white girl I was dating had an uncle in his fifties who had recently married an Asian-American girl of 26, and he thought it would be a good idea to to have my girlfriend and I over for dinner since there was this “Asian connection thingy”. Well it wasn’t a good idea. Apparently, he hadn’t told his wife that I was Asian – I think he wanted to surprise her with how progressive his family was – so guess what she said when she saw me? That’s right, as I reached out my hand to greet her she said something like “I like white guys!” and then looked at me with confusion (who knows why she was confused – even more importantly, who cares?). I looked over at my girlfriend and then at her uncle and I could see that they were wearing the same tight, mirthless, smile that I knew was spread across my face. Anyways, it was an uncomfortable night, with a lot of tight smiles, fake mutual interest, and disingenuous calls to “do it again sometime”. But at least the food seemed authentic.


Here is an example why we shouldn’t marry ourselves to one group of women. I just moved to the Bay Area from Chicago. I thought “great! the Mother Land away from the Mother Land!!”. This would be a great opportunity to diversify my dating experience. Admittedly, I was looking to date an AF because I thought that my ex-girlfriends didn’t get me or my family to some degree and an AF would. So, the goal has been set.

I moved into a new small apartment complex where the neighbors are friendly and pretty close. I had met most of them with the exception of a new AF across the way. However, a friend of mine (Caucasian) visiting from Chicago met her while walking my dog. He told me that she was pretty cute and was really friendly. So naturally I was certain that we at least would be friendly neighbors. Not so fast.

After my friend’s visit ended I actually met her, if you can call it that, while talking to my next door neighbor. She apparently was in his apartment while I was talking to him (Caucasian) in the front yard. He told me that the new neighbor was there and called for her to introduce us. When I turned around I expected her to come out and shake my hand, at the very least say “hi” in person. What she did was not only ridiculous but also appalling. Rather than come outside like a normal person, she stands in the doorway exposing only half of her face looking at me without even a wave. I waved and greeted her as I would anyone else.

I passed this off as strange. But a few nights later I was outside talking to the same next door neighbor and she walks by. She cheerily greeted him and completely ignored me as though I were a doorstop. That’s some straight up racist crap if I’ve ever seen it and I’ve seen plenty.

I have to contrast this with the numerous women that have said “hello” to me while I was walking the dog or dining out. A colleague’s new neighbor called out to me from her garage to say hi and ask how I was doing. She was CAUCASIAN!!


Jaewhan, [color="#0000FF"]we’ve reached a point where if someone like Kim Yun Jin or an Asian woman who calls herself an ‘activist’ turns out she’s actually hooked up with an Asian man (holy shit! no way!), we treat it like a God-given miracle. Ohh…look she’s actually MARRIED to an ASIAN GUY!!! PRAISE JESUS and Hallelujah! It’s a M I R A C L E! *tears*

Is this normal? People, we are beyond any conventional notions of “normal” or “absurd” here.[/color]


Look, almost everything you all have mentioned is something that ALL Asian men in America experience. What Asian man hasn’t heard “I only date White guys” or “White guys are better looking” or “he’s good looking for an Asian man” all while seeing this in the media:


The world is unsympathetic. Even our own Asian men step on us and abuse us to make a profit:

Post 3/?

3. Apparently now there's even lampooning of the "white-guy onlee AF" stereotype

Another comment from the main link:

Quote:This is a sad post I stumbled upon today while on the topic. Looks like Asian men aren’t the only ones getting the negative stereotype. I didn’t post this but I’m almost 100% certain it was done by another frustrated Asian guy.

Quote:Dummy’s Guide to Asian Girls with White Fever

The WHIGGIE (White Guy Groupie)

A brief profile of Asian girls afflicted with “White Fever”

ORIGINS: A subset of women of Asian ethnicity, usually found residing in major U.S. cities, although they have been known to appear overseas occasionally. Closely related to their cousins, Yellow Cabs (Japan), Gwei-Po’s (Hong Kong), Sarong Party girls (Singapore), Twinkies and Bananas.

NOT TO BE CONUSED WITH: Intelligent, emotionally-secure women who are free of identity problems, self-hate, racial prejudice and chips on their shoulders.


- Poorly developed self-identity. Pathetically insecure with themselves and their ethnicity.

- Resentment of father’s traditional, authoritarian upbringing (whether real or perceived).

- Brainwashed into believing that they, as AF’s, are more desirable than other women in exotic lotus blossom kinda way. Willingness to pander to western media sexual stereotypes of AF’s, which they perceive as marketing advantage.

- Thoroughly whitewashed. Desperate need to fit into “mainstream” (i.e. white) society and to distance themselves from their Asian heritage. Racial inferiority complex.

- Feigned air of superiority when dealing with members of own race and any other minority groups. In need of major attitude adjustments.

- Exaggerated, whiny, Encino-esque valley girl accent.

- Delusions of grandeur… “I want it all…and that begins with the right (i.e. white) guy…” Asian-American princess complex.

- Uncanny ability of determine one’s nationality, occupation, earning capacity and make of auto within three minutes of commencing a conversation.

- Exaggerated perception of white males’ value in increasing AF’s social status.

- Ignorant and narrow-minded, eager to adopt and perpetuate fallacious western media stereotypes of Asian men.

- A compulsion to trash Asians, particularly Asian men, in order to justify their autoracist tendencies, placate their guilt and bolster their self-esteem.

- Extremely shallow, self-centered, argumentative and boring.

- Disdains ethnic studies; regards it as a major threat to her carefully constructed, self-deceptive whiggie identity.

- Despises all Asian men, with the occasional exception of their brothers (after all, they share the same genes.

- Believes that racism does not exist because she, as an AF, has never experienced it first hand, or is too dense to realize it. Besides, those Asiaphiles are so nice to her (while plotting to get into her pants.

- Gets a warm fuzzy feeling when watching The Joy Luck Club, while snuggled up to her geeky Asiaphile boyfriend.

- Believes that the only reason an Asian person would disrespect her is because they are racist.

- Has lost count of how many WM’s she’s done this month.

- The wet-dream come true for socially-handicapped Caucasian nerds who are unable to attract Caucasian women.

- Threatened and insecure in the presence of any culturally-perceptive Asian person or any AM not fitting her stereotype of the quiet , marginalized, “model minority” geek.

- Fundamentally insecure, utterly confused, lacking in self respect.

- Many aging whiggies, after being used and abandoned by WM’s in favor of younger, more nubile whiggies and being rejected by AM’s who see through their transparency, develop a bitterness towards all men, period.

- Denial of all of the above.

FACIAL EXPRESSIONS: a) Look of contempt when eyes meet those of any non-white male, converting to beaming grin upon sighting of WM victim/target; b_) terminal pout or c) bimboish expression that defies deep thought.

TYPICAL ATTIRE: Anything trendy, mainstream-looking and seductive (especially if it’s black and tight). Big hair (perhaps their most valuable asset) tossed with hand every 15 seconds. Wonderbra. Fanatical whiggies have been known to undergo certain procedures such as eyelid surgery, breast augmentation and vaginal tightening operations in order to increase their marketability to WM’s. Blue contact lenses and bleached blonde hair have even been sported on occasion. Note: Attire may vary depending on the specific type of WM being targeted.

I.Q: Too low to measure.


Personal ad columns (“exotic, slim, SAF seeks successful, generous SWM”), cheerleading squads, sorority houses (role: token “oriental sisters”), T.V. newsdesks, B-grade Kung-Fu flicks, trendy nightclubs (usually found necking with aging WM’s), Chinese restaurants (slumming with the WM and demonstrating that she’s “in touch with her heritage”), anywhere else frequented by White males.


Age 10: “Mom, why do we have to be (Chinese/Japanese/Korean)? Do you have to dress like that? And what’s with Dad and his accent?

Age 12: “Mom, I want an eyelid job for Christmas, okay?

Later on…

“I’ve always only dated white guys. I don’t know why, I just have.”

“Race doesn’t matter. I just happen to like white guys. It’s just a preference.”

“We are the world, we are the children…We…”

“I’ve gone out with all kinds of guys…Dutch, English, French, German, you name it. Even went out with a Jewish guy once! After all, love is color blind.”

“Eeeew, Jennifer, how could you go out with that (insert minority group here) guy!?” Totally gross!

“Oooh Roger, you’re like soooo strong and intelligent. Did you say you drive a beemer? Kewl! (giggle).”

“I want to learn English better…you maybe teach, handsome man? Are you U.S. citizen?” (Yes FOB’s can be whiggies too!)

“Like why would I want to go out with an Asian guy? They don’t own me or anything. Uhh, and besides they are all male chauvinist …and domineering too…yeah that’s it! Didn’t you see The Joy Luck Club?”

Like, I’m dating *out* of my race, so how can I be racists?!! Duh!!

CLOSELY RELATED TO: Racists, bigots, wannabes, ho’s, chameleons, white supremacists, a fish out of water.

MEDIA REPRESENTATION/ROLE MODELS: Connie Chung, Amy Tan, Lisa Ling, Margaret Cho, Sheryl Wu Dunn, any of The Joy Luck Club protagonists (except the one who married an Asian dude).

NATURAL COUNTERPARTS: Asiaphiles…who else?

As an aside:

I'd caught parts of the "Joy Luck Club" on TV many years ago. There was a historical segment that was playing when I tuned in, so I thought it was a Chinese historical movie. It is about an abusive and philandering man, and another selfish and unloving and mercenary man, and I remember Andy McCarthy (Blaine from PiP) playing the 'saviour' of at least one of the many Chinese women involved. It's all vague in my head now, but one man measured out his 'love' with money: the woman had insisted they go half-half on everything, and eventually he settled into this routine, then she eventually blamed him for continuing it when she's the one IIRC who started it and who trained him in it.

I remember thinking how unlikely it was that there were only Chinese (male) villains in the movie, and feeling it was a manipulative movie: everything from the sobstories of the female characters, to the (Chinese) men for whom one really had no sympathy and who really had no emotions other than violence and oppressiveness and a clinical interest in money. So it turns out that the manipulative aspect wasn't my imagination after all, and that was its actual purpose. Anyone who falls for such crap - they deserve to believe nonsense.

Until Andy McCarthy showed up - at which one breathed a sigh of relief (also manipulated, I now see) - I thought the movie was angry at all men.

While I don't live in the US, I know from first-hand observation that there are lots of loving Chinese couples, as all the examples I'm thinking of arrived in the last decade or so from Taiwan and China. The men love their wives and child/children and the women love their husbands and their children. (The children may love hamsters or not, I don't know.) I would gush more on how affectionate and loving the couples are, but will keep the descriptions objective. But the husbands and wives both love their parents too, and are mindful and dutiful to these - like the old Hindoos were/are - and go back home to look after ageing or unwell parents whenever they can, and to visit family for happier reasons too (like taking baby to form connections with family members as well as imbibe the native culture and ethos from them).

And such observations as mine matter because the cases I've noticed concern the very people who come from the allegedly "repressive" society in the ancestral homeland - as this is what is being stigmatised. Contrary to being money-oriented or patriarchal, the men are affectionate (the PDA is fortunately limited to affectionate glances - sufficiently warm/caring for me to think "that's it, get a room, you two"), but then they look kindly on everyone, including friends. The men I've seen carry their weight about the house and look after the babies quite well. I mean, I have heard one of these dads sing to his baby, and getting all greedy to go home at work's end to play with his bairn, and oh yeah, he even babbled back to baby's gurgling on the phone - yes we *all* overheard. But lots of men stop to think of their 'image' once they're fathers, I've noticed.

In short, all quite like my Hindoo dad (and granddads, uncles as well as male cousins who now have kids).

I also want to defend their women: those I have seen are very admirable women - in the extreme. Besides having a brain, they're quite wary of engineering and media misportrayals (whenever the latest international media attack against "all Indians/India" comes along, one of the women asks me cofirmation on how much the exagerration must be this time. I suppose being from China she's used to people willing to believe the worst.) And they love their husbands. They further don't see themselves as some gender unit constantly under attack and nursing resentment. Rather they see themselves as part of a collective: their [entire] family as the smallest unit, all the way to their entire (heathen) community.

I can't work out what the demographic is of the people open to fall for such psyops as the Joy Luck Club and the like. Is the target audience just the christowest - they are indeed happy in their smug ignorance and belief that others are oppressive and they themselves are therefore the pinnacle of humanity. Apparently only they love. Or are capable of caring. Or can be equal partners. Etc.

Or is the target rather that particular AF and WM demographic which tends to form convenient and amnesiac amorous connections with each other and who wish to feel justified in their easy choices by the disparaging of others?
Post 4/?

4. Actual data and statistics,

as well as individual's experiences, interpretations and extrapolations concerning this

I'm including the latter because it is indicative of how the situation on the ground is perceived by those affected by it. And how much they are affected by it.


Another thing that I don’t quite get is why you guys (Kobuk, Urbs, MaSir) keep making the case that it’s so few and far between to find a righteous AF anywhere. I’ve even heard the lottery comparison used. We’ve all acknowledged the obvious disparity, and it’s destructive psychological effects, but overstating it only perpetuates the hopelessness and further erodes the confidence among Asian guys. Why do that?

[color="#0000FF"]U.S. Census 2006 figures show 41 % of Asian American-born women having White husbands, while 50 percent were married to Asian American men. That’s a high outmarriage number, but it still shows a higher

number of American-born Asian women marrying Asian guys. And that doesn’t even count the non American-born AFs. Those don’t sound like lottery-chance numbers to me. Below are the Totals for married couples in the United States – 2006.

Asian Husband/Asian Wife 2,493,000

White Husband/Asian Wife 530,000[/color]

All I’m saying is this idea that the VAST MAJORITY of Asian women are untrustworthy and unsupportive does not seem to square with the actual statistics. Am I misreading the numbers or not taking something into account that I should here?




I do not merely look at statistics, which is only a static snapshot of data at a particular point in time. I pay more attention to trends, patterns, attitudes, and behavior. I am a “big picture” person. Your 2006 data shows that 41% were married to white husbands. I’m not sure by whose measure 41% is considered “optimistic”. It sure ain’t mine. Also, the data does not take into account non-married relationships. If we factored that in also, we’d be seeing an even uglier picture. BTW, I hate statistics.

The salient questions are: Is this declining? Has this reached an equilibrium? Or is it getting worse? In lieu of further data, it can be reasonably argued that as time passes and as the Asian-American community moves into the 3rd, 4th, 5th…nth generation and increasingly assimilates, the numbers of Asian-American women outdating/outmarrying will continue to rise.

I’ve always said this in the past and I will say it again. The IR disparity will get worse before it gets better.


In lieu of further data, ANYTHING can be argued. We don’t have a full understanding of all the sociology variables involved here, therefore we cannot predict the future trend. It may be at equilibrium, or in decline, we just don’t know.

My presentation of U.S. Census figures here was not meant to convey optimism, it was meant to combat the mythology that Asian women who date and then marry Asian men are rare. That is not true.


[color="#0000FF"]41% of 2nd generation+ Asian American women marry with Whites?

Damn. I didn’t realize it was so high.

Here’s some more analysis of the issue. To be frank, some of his findings are framed in terms of difficult to read statistical jargon, but there were some interesting conclusions:

“Further, this model shows that Korean women have a White intermarriage rate of almost 61%. That may seem unbelievable but in this particular instance, the numbers do not lie.”

“At first glance, these statistics may seem rather unbelievable since they tend to show very high levels of intermarriages, especially among Koreans and Filipinos. Many readers will undoubtedly argue that these numbers do not correspond to their own personal experiences and observations.”

Unmarried Asian Men Living with . . .

Asians 63.4

Whites 26.5

Blacks 1.0

Hispanics/Latinos 5.5

Unmarried Asian Women Living with . . .

Asians 45.2

Whites 39.7

Blacks 5.0

Hispanics/Latinos 5.8

Source: 2000 Census (Table 2)

In Table 5.6 (page 49) of the study, they found that when it came to the dating preferences of White women, their first preference was to date a White man, which is not suprising nor uncommon. But their data showed that the White women in the study would also consider dating men or color, but only if he made more money than a comparable White man, as follows:

* Latino American men: + $77,000

* African American men: + $154,000

* Asian American men: + $246,000


To me, this last factoid is most damning. White women would graciously consider dating a man of color … but only if he made a hella lot more money than a comparable White guy.

That’s called White Supremacy, and this issue is the 1000 lb gorilla that many people avoid in debates about IR.

“White is Right” in marriage and dating.

And yet many people still repeat the hilarious lie that “Love is Color Blind.”


@ Larry

That’s outrageous! I don’t make $154,000!!! Argh!



That’s still about 65% less than what we have to make.



interesting research, thanks for digging that out. I do remember looking at some of that stuff awhile ago and I could’ve sworn that there was also some stats showing that AM’s who married AF’s tended to marry “down” in socioeconomic status. In other words, their partners were more likely to be foreign born and not as well educated as their US counterparts. by contrast, AF’s who married out tended to raise their economic status.

Now don’t hold me to it, but I thought I saw that somewhere from US census stats. And again, stats can be interpreted in a lot of ways. But if true, that means American born AM’s don’t even have a shot at American born AF’s who are on the same level?


Sorry, one last thing, King. You’re still assuming that I wish for the AA “community” survive. I don’t. I am saying that AMs should reject the community and just let it die.

It’s tiring to see a 16 year old dog with cancer struggling. If you had any heart, you’d bash it over the head with a shovel and end it.


I don’t understand how you and Kobukson can look at the U.S. Census statistics and continue comparing the chances of finding a righteous AF to lotteries, or lightning strikes. The IR outdating is obviously really, really, high (that’s a given). But nevertheless, when 50% of American-born AFs are still marrying Asian guys that is simply NOT a lottery! Do you know of any lottery with a 50% chance of winning???

It’s clearly a gross overstatement to say that “all” or even “most” AFs have abandon Asian men. The figures simply do not support that. Does it make sense to just ignore these numbers and continue repeating the same thing over and over?


I was going to post something to that effect, but you said it for me. Logically, I can’t dimiss all AF’s as untrustworthy, sell outs, etc…yes, you might see it yourself and it validates your view, but that holds true only for your experience.


King, I get what you are saying. We ought to be thankful for the crumbs that fall our way.

What the numbers do not reveal is the general mindset of AFs: Hear no evil, See no evil, Speak no evil.

If we examine the 50% that are married to AMs a little more closely we will find a sizable chunk who did merely because that’s what their parents would have wanted. Another sizable chunk came from the Motherland. Finally, we have guys like Urbs, rich, successful, drives a nice car, etc. While AFs fuck around, doing whatever it is that they do, guys like Urbs work their asses off to achieve their success and when it comes time to marry, these girls latch on to the Urbs. Meanwhile, if you’re not an Urb, or a doctor, lawyer, banker, whatever, if you’re just some nondescript working stiff….you’re fucked.

Basically, AMs are a “safe” option in case her parents absolutely refuse to have a non-Asian son-in-law, a meal-ticket for coming to America, a backup plan.

It’s pathetic.

But don’t take my word for it. Ask around, talk to people, do a little probing…see what you find. I dare anyone to see if what I am saying is not true.

And because many AMs have a “scarcity-mentality” and hold a stubborn notion that AFs are the only option, for whatever reasons, we allow this to happen.

Dude, where is your dignity?

(Why is there such a blind aversion to E Asian men? I don't get it. They're so very attractive. I've often been verging on becoming jealous until I snapped out of it by realising I'm not competing with them in the first place. And beyond looks too - such as qualities of character/background - I repeat: they're so very attractive. Their women are too - I've never claimed otherwise - but their men are no less so.

It's very obvious to me that the invisibility of E Asian men is unnatural and is inculcated in the affected regions of the world.)
Post 5/?

5. IR's effects and Reaction and the fallout: Counter alienation / loss of trust / resentment / bitterness [leading to death of community, so Melting Pot-ism achieves its goal]


I don’t reach out to AFs at all because I’ve managed to develop an extreme hostility towards them. Over the years, I’ve watched and observed their apathy towards this issue which has caused my feelings to fester into resentment. Interestingly enough, I’ve never experienced these situations first hand. Almost all of it was listening to other Asian men and from friends who have had their confidence absolutely decimated because of it.

Many moved back to Asia to improve their chances. Some got better and started dating non-Asian women. One hung himself.


The longer it festers, the worse the reaction will be. In all my life, I have never seen a problem improve itself the longer it drags out. It’s gotten so bad that more and more AMs are going the revenge route. Hell, I know many AMs that view AFs the same way they view WMs. The trust is completely gone. Keep it up and people will eventually resort to revenge.

What’s the quote?

“Tickle us do we not laugh? Prick us do we not bleed? Poison us do we not die? Wrong us shall we not revenge?”


“Compliments about my physical appearance” translates into “She probably spent her life dating WM but when it’s marrying age, she wants to take advantage of my financial situation and the hard work that came with it.”


I felt betrayed because her voice did not reflect anything even remotely of disgust or discomfort. Quite the opposite in fact. The tone of her voice was filled with giggles and flattery as if she were basking in her exotification and sexual objectification of her race-gender by this white guy. At one point I THOUGHT I knew who it was but to this day I still am not 100% sure.

It puzzled me, but it also made me realize what I was dealing with. That’s just the beginning. I’ll revisit more of these so I may bring this dark chapter in my life to a close and purge the emotional scars that have tainted me and shaped my ugly views of AF/WM relationships.

[color="#0000FF"]Of course we’re angry. First they diss our kind calling us, “chink, gook, nip, jap, slanty-eyed, etc”, and now they want to go fucking our women left and right. As bad enough as it is, the biggest slap in the face to Asian men is even after all that YOU ASIAN BITCHES FLOCK TO THAT SHIT WITH OPEN ARMS.[/color]

[color="#800080"](Again, bypassing the angry language, the rational argument behind it is not rendered less valid, as the question appears to me to be: after all the christowest did to E Asian society - how it mistreated Asian men and women and continues doing so - why do there even *exist* Asian women who feel flattered by the sudden and oh-so-obviously racist-sexist attention they're getting, let alone their existing in such large and disproportionate/unnatural numbers? And why and how do they even stand for the marginalisation of the men of their own ethnic communities, and for the constant misrepresentation of their historical community/society? In short, "Where is their brain?" And: how can they live with themselves and not hate themselves?)[/color]



"But what if it didn’t work that way? What if this new divide just caused a continuing and reciprocal cycle of bitterness and mistrust? What if things got worse before they became… well, horrible? (not better) What if Asians, male and female simply got more and more entrenched in the idea that the other side was the enemy, bolstered by stories of continuing rejection and betrayal now on BOTH sides of the gender divide?"
You bring up a very fair point.

[color="#0000FF"]I call this “Mutually Assured Destruction”. At some point, one side will have to back down in order to avert total destruction. If neither side doesn’t back down, the Asian-American community is destroyed. [...] Fuck worrying about the “community”. A community where one side suffers because of what the other side is doing is not a community worth preserving in the first place.[/color]


But I dunno if AF’s really care all that much to begin with. At least not the second and third generation AF’s. They’re already accepted into the greater white mainstream culture whereas us AM’s aren’t. Perhaps I’m wrong but I just get a sense that they’re not even paying attention, and you can’t argue with someone who is self absorbed and isn’t paying attention. Hell, they don’t even know there’s a cultural genocide going on to render us completely invisible and irrelevant.

6. The other affected

Krista says:

January 13, 2011 at 5:54 pm


That. That. That. Perspective from a non-perfect Asian female who desperately wanted to date Asian men, and was rejected time and time again.

[color="#800080"](Be aware, explicit content at above link.)[/color]

jaehwan says:

January 15, 2011 at 8:53 pm

Thanks, Krista. Saw that. Julie is definitely also correct.

Note that not everyone feels quite so hopeless as to be pursuing the 'Mutually Assured Destruction' route as some of the examples above (and the particular link was discussing this particular group's views on how they wanted to react to/move past the IR disparity), but for there to exist any people who feel so vengeful/resentful as to be willing to sink their community when they didn't originally have any problems with their community, underlines that the mutual alienation is a profound issue, and certainly experienced as such by affected people.

These were people that had they lived back home in a society unaffected by western psyops and social engineering, they'd have formed happy connections and started happy families.

There is nothing *wrong* with these individuals. They are perfectly sane, clever, argue reasonably. Their bitterness is because of unreasonable circumstances - circumstances foisted on them with calculation/by unspoken policy.
Post 6/?

[color="#FF0000"]7. The real questions and conclusions[/color]

Quote:Leon says:

July 6, 2010 at 8:52 am

This whole deal’s taken an interesting (although not entirely surprising) turn. Is the whole point here just to get Asian American men laid? So if we just hook these brothers up, then the whole IR thing ceases to be an issue? So if half the men in the population also marries out, then all will be happy in the Asian American community, right?

[color="#800080"](Most/all of the following comments in this post are from bigwowo.com/2010/05/sister-can-you-lend-an-ear-by-julia-oh/)[/color]

Pozhal says:

July 12, 2013 at 8:53 pm


The media reflects the society that the powerful WANT to see. That’s why Hollywood is still so lily white despite increasing diversity America, and when there is colour in Hollywood, it’s often with ethnic stereotypes or with attractive ethnic women in the arms of white leading men.

Pozhal says:

July 12, 2013 at 8:55 pm


Very well said.


Asian guys with white preferences are also a problem, though obviously, since they have fewer opportunities to act upon their racial inferiority complex, it’s less of an immediate problem. If you look at my post in the Urb4n IR thread, you’ll see my feelings on the matter. Ultimately, AM dating WF en masse as revenge is the worst way to go about it. White supremacist society has always focused on breaking on the families of minority groups, and that would be one huge step in that direction.

Pozhal says:

August 2, 2013 at 7:30 am

Eurasian Sensation,

Of course IR relationships will face some opposition from somewhere. My point is that why is it that we only ever hear about one side of the story? These WM/AF relationships are rationalized, glorified, or romanticized. And even if they’re critiqued, Asian men are never a factor; it’s always “ignore the Asiaphiles and hope that you meet a normal white guy”.

For once, I’d love to read a bunch of articles by Asian women upholding dating Asian men as the solution to rampant Asiaphilia and becoming comfortable in one’s identity. Or perhaps an Asian man’s thoughtful reflection on why America is more willing to accept Asian women than Asian men.

Pozhal says:

August 6, 2013 at 10:57 am

Eurasian Sensation,

Of course we all have our own perspectives. The fact that I stubbed my toe this morning is of more immediate importance and vividness for me than, say, the underfunding of NASA.

But websites and publications aren’t publishing story after story of my stubbed toe.

That’s my problem with this whole thing. All we ever hear about the IR issue is about how hard it is for Asian women to find a decent White man, or how beautiful these WM/AF relationships are, or why Asian women are justified in discriminating against Asian (and usually, all non-White) men.

Where are the diverse perspectives? Why, it’s ALMOST as if the media is going out of its way to flatter the White male ego.

Raguel says:

August 7, 2013 at 2:54 pm

If I did not get it wrong like an idiot, the reason Frank Chin wanted AM/AF coupling was so that families could be formed as a nucleus for the preservation of Asian CULTURE, so that a form of continuity and cultural authenticity could be preserved in the Asian communities that have lived for so long in America.

This wasn’t just about “dating”, sex or “IR disparity”. I think Frank Chin was looking far beyond that, and when he saw the organised attacks against Asian culture and interpretations of history he may have recognised something more sinister.

Think about how stupid it is when white professors at universities know more about your Asian history, culture and speak the language better than Asian Americans even do. (But granted, they are professors…)

Now think about how insidious it is when the only thing written about Asian culture was how backwards it was compared to the Western ideals, which actually did happen at many points of time in the past.

But all of this is a moot point, isn’t it, if all Asian Americans want is to be accepted as “white” people, with no heed nor care for their cultural background that the other emigres to America have. If this is the case Asian Americans will be the most stunning example of a successful program of cultural eradication and re-creation at the hands of a white master with tentacles in universities and mass media.

King says:

@ souleater

Before I was exposed to Asian American activism, (BTW I’m African American) My impression was that Asians were, for the most part unaffected by prejudice by the majority. One way that I bolstered that belief was by how many Asians seemed to be marrying right into White families. But it wasn’t until it was pointed out to me that the VAST majority of these unions where between White men and Asian women but very seldom between Asian men and White women. I had to do a double take as I thought for a moment and realized that they were right. Later on I looked at the census data and university studies on the subject. It turned out that this wasn’t just something out of Asian guy’s imaginations, but was independent and scientificall verifiable.

Which led me into dialoges about how Asian men are portrayed in Western media, until very recently, either as 1dimensional karate fighters or as extreme, socially awkward nerds. Then came along a slew of books and movies (many written by Asian women married to White men) that were extremely critical of Asian men as possessive, filandering, monsters. These writers depicted Asian women as in need of rescue from their own oppressive culture by open and egalitarian Western men. These depictions were popularized and broadcast around the world through media. Even AA men who had grown up in California and whoshared the same Western sensibilities as the White saviors were not trusted because the LOOKED like “foot binders.”

All of this is part of the system. it’s the system of racism that was constructed long ago in this country which was designed to insure that White people held a perpetual advantage over non-Whites. You did not personally build The System, but it is your choice whether you recognize it for what it is and denounce it.
Post 7/?

8. Interracial Relationships not free of racists nor necessarily making society free of racism

Quote:Larry says:

May 31, 2010 at 6:57 pm

@ dizzle

[color="#0000FF"]Interracial dating and marriage do NOT necessarily cause “progress towards inter-cultural relations” and they don’t equal racial justice or equality.

That is a common fallacy.

For instance,[/color] a significant portion of Black people in the USA have always had some European ancestry in their background, and significant numbers of White people have always had non-White blood in them.

Hell, the very category of LATINO is a mixed race identity, encompassing people of White European, Indigenous, Black, or Mestiza background.

But this mixed race reality doesn’t change America’s racist criminal injustice system where a disproportionate number of African Americans are arrested, sentenced, and imprisoned.

Nor does it alter the rising ride of American racist xenophobia towards “illegal immigrants” (aka Latinos), as evidenced by things such as Arizona’s racial profiling law SB 1070–which a majority of Americans support?

Even noted Southern segregationist Strom Thurmond had a Black mistress and fathered a mixed race child with her. But that didn’t affect his racist political views one whit.

Racial equality and justice on a broad societal level will not be achieved through whom you sleep with or marry.

They are achieved through political activism and struggle.

dizzle says:

June 1, 2010 at 10:26 pm


Do me a favor and re-read what I wrote. In no way was I saying that IR dating and marriage is the answer for racial justice or equality. It was never stated as such. IRs are a reflection of the a shift in the paradigm of how WE ALL view different cultures. Nobody in their right mind would advocate entering an IR for the sake of social or racial justice. Nobody.

The rise in IR mates and racial justice have a complementary role in society. If you grow up in a house where dating anything other than what you are is an abomination then you’re less likely to do it. But if this person turns on the tele or has friends that are in IRs then they might be curious even on a xenophobic level. This bit of curiosity is just enough to maybe pry that mind to an open one.

You really missed the point, man. My statements never said that to gain racial justice or equality you had to enter an IR. When you date someone the goal in the relationship is to understand the other person. Without it the relationship fails. If both people make an effort to understand each other’s culture then are we not making racial progress? It doesn’t happen for everyone or every relationship but dating is a great arena for such change.

Your quote: “Racial equality and justice on a broad societal level will not be achieved through whom you sleep with or marry.

They are achieved through political activism and struggle.”

My quote: “The more WE all mingle the closer we move towards understanding the cultural differences and therefore we increase tolerance.”

Political activism does not work if there is no effort to understand the other side as well.

Please don’t cherry pick my statements.

I’m too tire for this shit. Spewing facts does not make your argument a valid one.

Larry says:

June 2, 2010 at 7:43 pm

Dizzle: I did read your comments, man. And I do understand your point.

You’re basically trying to insinuate that there is some implicit progressive aspect to IR relationships. If not impacting racial justice directly, then IR supposedly helps to create a broader “culture of tolerance”–whatever the hell that means.

You wrote:

“The rise in IR mates and racial justice have a complementary role in society.”

“The more WE all mingle the closer we move towards understanding the cultural differences and therefore we increase tolerance.”

That ain’t true. Like I said before, those are straight up fallacies.

It’s the We-Are-the-World, Let’s-Sing-Kumbaya version of racial justice that mainstream America loves to peddle.

Too bad they are feel-good (White) lies.

-Did Strom Thurmond’s decades-long IR relationship with a Black woman help to promote “understanding of cultural differences” in himself? If it did, he had a strange way of showing it, given his racist political views throughout his life.

-Does Michelle Malkin’s IR marriage with some White guy create a more “tolerant culture”? If so, how do you explain her support for the Japanese American internment?

-Does Amy Tan’s IR marriage with some other White guy cause her or America to become more “understanding”? This is the same Amy Tan who has made a lucrative career out of pandering to White stereotypes about “sexist and male chauvinist” Asian culture.

-How about all those White boys who buy, sorry… fall madly in love with mail-order brides from Asia? Usually, these White boys are some of the most Orientalist and racist fuckers you will find, as they have visions of “Geisha girls” and “China dolls” dancing in their head.

[color="#0000FF"]The bottom line: Dating or marrying somebody of a different race or ethnicity does not necessarily create some feel-good culture of understanding–interpersonally or otherwise.

There is nothing intrinsically positive (or negative) about IR relationships. Usually, they tend to reflect the broader society in which they occur.

And in a country that is based upon White racism and racial hierarchy like America, IR relationships will more likely reflect this racial inequality–not meliorate it.[/color]

BTW, if you are so tired talking about IR, why do you post on this thread to begin with?

Pingback: The Asian Female Celebrity Union (AFCU) Embargo « big WOWO

Leon says:

June 3, 2010 at 11:35 am

[color="#0000FF"]Damn Larry, you’re absolutely right. Some of the most racist white guys I run into are those married to Asian women. It’s like being married to a minority is a carte blanche to be complete assholes toward that person’s community. After all, you always have, “I’m not racist, I’m married to a ___” argument to fall back on. That is one of the greatest ironies of this whole IR issue. The AF married/dating these guys are undermining their own status and hurting themselves without even realizing it.[/color]

[color="#800080"](Again, the above clearly fits that anti-Hindu indologist to a T. The one that said "I'm not racist, my *girl* is Chinese." He used the word girl. I remember very well.)[/color]

jaehwan says:

June 4, 2010 at 10:01 am

Thanks, RCR! Those are excellent points about them not talking to you. Seriously. With Asian women married to the two most powerful White men in media (Wendi Deng and Rupert Murdoch; Julie Chen and Les Moonves), you’d think OUR stories would be all over the media, both in broadcast and print. But alas, no.

By the way, I just caught this:

Black Women See Fewer Black Men at the Altar


So 22% of black men who wed in 2008 did so with non-black women?

(Related to this other, but somewhat less extreme IR disparity: www.thefighting44s.com/archives/2007/08/10/browns-wall-of-shame-in-inter-racial-dating/ <- paste into Internet Archive)

And this:

“Among all married African-Americans in 2008, 13 percent of men and 6 percent of women had a nonblack spouse. This compares with nearly half of American-born Asians choosing non-Asian spouses. ”

Half of us? [color="#0000FF"]If you consider that the proportion of AF/non-Asian men to AM/non-Asian women is like 4 to 1 by marriage and like 100 to 1 by dating, things don’t bode well for us.[/color]

And a comment by that blog owner of which I'm not sure under what heading it belongs:

Quote:[...] the only other guy I know who read Free Food For Millionaires. Which means you’re the only other guy I know in the whole universe who understands how Min Jin broke my heart.


And you actually bring up something that I hadn’t realized before. Even though I thought Unu was a cardboard anti-stereotype, and even though Min Jin nailed us by putting in an Asian rapist elsewhere in the novel, Unu was never hit with the normal Kingstonian tar and feather. There was at least some effort to make it right. So in that sense, even though she broke my heart, I have to give my respects.
Post 8/?

Two comments revealed general matters unknown to me:

9. China's Out-Adoption Policy

From the primary link again


Quote:@ my brothers,

like jaewhan said, it’s okay to be angry. no one will deny you what you feel. We ARE angry because you’re right—most often, when you see the AF/WM couple out on the street, it’s a huge slap in the face to us. Especially when there is no counter balance for it. And the big kick in the nuts is that the media reinforces it over and over. From movies to TV commercials….implicit in that is, “hey, AF/WM is okay, it’s the norm!”

Where is the AM presence? It doesn’t exist. We are the new invisible men. We don’t matter and to some degree, you might very well be right about the social Darwinism aspect. [color="#FF0000"]One thing that pisses me off about China is their adoption policies. They let white people adopt all their female babies….and guess what? The cycle begins all over. A generation of AF’s, with no clear connection to their heritage, being raised by white couples, who will grow up to marry WM’s. Where are the AM’s in their lives? Where is our presence? And China is creating an alienated class of AM’s in their own country with no one to marry.[/color]

This should bother all of us because at some point, there isn’t going to BE any Asian American community or culture. And this is where I differ. If we all date/marry out, just which culture is absorbing whom in the US? Or Canada?

10. Curiosity: Korea appears to have been 'Miraculously' (i.e. with calculation) swamped with the plague of christianism just at that point when it had started becoming a prosperous nation

This again is from the second link


Quote:Pozhal says:

July 16, 2013 at 6:19 am


You have to realize that just in the 1950s, Korea was one of the poorest countries in the world. This isn’t ancient history; that’s the decade when my parents were born, and I’m still a young man who isn’t yet of marrying age! Even in the 1970s, North Korea had a higher standard of living than South Korea. Right through the 1980s, South Korea was still a Third World military dictatorship whose economy relied on cheap exports and cheap labour.

Just because Koreans carry around Galaxy S4s and drive BMWs doesn’t mean that we’ve been able to exorcise all of our colonial mentality or develop a strong sense of cultural identity.

I think the 2002 World Cup was so important to Koreans because it was the first time in modern history that Koreans were able to go toe-to-toe against Europeans and emerge as victors. That wasn’t even a decade ago.

Korean hasn’t been wealthy for a very long time, and it certainly hasn’t been culturally confident for any significant time either. We’re still in an adolescent stage of development.

Compare the era being discussed above with how christianism decided to descend on S Korea - see below - just then when it stood poised for prosperity:

- buddhapia.com/eng/tedesco/pic1/list.html

- buddhapia.com/eng/tedesco/2.html

- buddhapia.com/eng/tedesco/3.html
Post 9/9

Different link but came up earlier.

Shows movies twisting history, and all in order to revisit the 'popular' match yet again


Quote:The End of History and the Last Asian Man

Posted on July 16, 2009 by bigWOWO

[caption to movie poster for a movie called 'Iron Road':] [color="#0000FF"]A Canadian-Chinese Work of Orientalist White-Worshipping Glory[/color]

Orientalists–you people are everywhere.


So I saw the picture above on another Asian site which was promoting this movie, which is apparently showing in Vancouver this week. I was interested, thinking that it was a historical drama about the Chinese building of the railroads. And since the White guys are in the background, I assumed that the story was about the Chinese woman and the Chinese man–which logically makes sense, since the Chinese railroads are a story about Chinese people. Since the movie was promoted on the website as a collaboration between the Chinese and Canadians, I also assumed that they would be true to both sides involved. I thought they would focus on the history.

Let me just say this–you people did some clever marketing by putting the Asian people in the foreground and putting Chinese han zi on the front. You had me tricked. Unfortunately for you immoral turds, I read the fine print. I went to your site and saw:

When James arrives, he’s accosted by a street urchin nicknamed ‘Little Tiger’, whose fierce ambition is to get to North America, where his father died mysteriously, working on the railroad.

In a fight with a Chinese gang lord, Little Tiger saves James’s life. James is grateful and agrees to hire the kid on his crew sailing to the new world.

He never suspects the truth: that Little Tiger is actually a beautiful young woman who has disguised herself to work in a man’s world … and that she’s falling in love with him!

You people actually took the story of the predominantly male Chinese American railroad story, where thousands of us died from the torturous and dangerous work, and you turned it into yet another WM/AF movie? [color="#0000FF"] You needed to do the Chinese version of the Hollywood Japanese American internment? Let me get this straight–your ancestors invite cheap, unregulated labor that kills thousands of men, they stick Japanese American citizens in prisons that destroy families and spirits, and you so-called artists have the racist audacity to turn these terrible abuses of human rights into romances between Asian women and a White guys?[/color]

I was talking to Anna about Rice Chasers and how they drag down Asian American organizations if you let them, and this illustrates exactly what I’m talking about. [color="#0000FF"]How do you take Asian American history seriously when the main point all the Asian American movies is just to glorify the masculinity of White men? And the media–when it comes to interracial relationships, you bury the bad when it suits the majority. Good God, how do we get a dialogue going when everything is designed to make one race look better than another?[/color]

[color="#800080"](Note that the above words "bury the bad" at the blog site links to another of its articles.)[/color]

[color="#0000FF"]What’s so sad about this one is that some Asian people co-opted us in order to sell this movie.[/color] I was dismissive of Dogs of Chinatown, but at least the director and producer have an excuse in that they’re from North Carolina. (And the producer Blake listened with an open ear–I think he’s a nice guy.) This one is even worse–their #$%$^ director is a Chinese guy, who should know better. This is a guy who knows what racist Hollywood asks for, a guy who has probably read interviews with Bruce and Jet, a guy named “David Wu,” a guy who no doubt sees what Hollywood does to minorities. He’s got the same name as my Congressman, and he should change it. Fucker.

Seriously, when are these scumbags going to stop hurling their monkey crap?

[color="#0000FF"]If you can tell, I am particularly angry at the Chinese people behind this. I remember reading the Philosophy of History by Georg Friedrich Hegel. Brilliant thinker that Hegel. Racist–like all other Germans of his time–but brilliant. He talks about how Chinese history stays in one place and doesn’t progress, and while that’s obviously not true, I can see where he gets it after reading about guys like “David Wu.” Talk about repeating history ad nauseum.

These people make me sick. I have no problem with them producing this stuff, but call it what it is–racial propaganda. This way we can at least all be honest.[/color] Hell, if the director claimed that White people were oppressed and needed some yellow lovin’, at least I could respect him for his honesty, even if I disagreed with his premise. [color="#0000FF"]To market this as some kind of cross-collaborative celebration of history when it’s only there to perpetuate the supposed masculine superiority of one race over another, however, is nothing more than a complete lie. And I’m tired of it. I’m tired of these smiling, Asian Step-n-Fetchit Charlies who sell their souls to the Man at the drop of a hat.[/color] I’ve had enough, and I need a vacation from you people.


Some of the comments:


This is more proof that some of the greatest oppressors of Asians are Asians themselves. This demographic has the largest concentration of sellouts that I’ve yet seen and I’ve noticed that Asians are far more likely to attack me from behind.


jaehwan says:

July 17, 2009 at 11:26 am

One more thing (sorry, even I’m amazed at how much these Asian Toms ticked me off), [color="#0000FF"]I think this movie illustrates the need for Asian American Studies and Asian American history classes. I remember reading Takaki’s book which noted at one point there were around 3,000 Chinese men working on the railroad, accompanied by something like 10 women. That’s history.[/color]

Pozhal says:

July 22, 2013 at 6:03 pm

Wow, this movie is just so contrived that it’s sick. I don’t think there’s a single Asian-centric story that’s safe from the white dick.

[color="#0000FF"]For god’s sake, “Flowers of War” took a story about a PRIEST and gave him a AF love interest.

And there’s going to be a movie about the building of the Great Wall of China that will star Henry Cavill. Because there were so many Europeans hanging out in Qin Dynasty China, right?[/color]

This shit is so unbearable.

Apparently the last mentioned film - the one on the Great Wall - got cancelled (?) But they're not feeling completely optimistic, thinking the obvious absurdity may get resurrected in time.
Post 1/2

1. Forgot to mention the overly-obvious about the following comment that was quoted in Post 8 somewhere above:


41% of 2nd generation+ Asian American women marry with Whites?

Damn. I didn’t realize it was so high.

Here’s some more analysis of the issue. To be frank, some of his findings are framed in terms of difficult to read statistical jargon, but there were some interesting conclusions:

“Further, this model shows that Korean women have a White intermarriage rate of almost 61%. That may seem unbelievable but in this particular instance, the numbers do not lie.”

“At first glance, these statistics may seem rather unbelievable since they tend to show very high levels of intermarriages, especially among Koreans and Filipinos. Many readers will undoubtedly argue that these numbers do not correspond to their own personal experiences and observations.”

The bold bits: note how the intermarriage rate of Asian Females married to western males is highest where Koreans (61%) and Filipinos are concerned.

And these two are *exactly* the most christianised nations in E and SE Asia. But then, that is precisely what converted nations are groomed for.

(Just like how christian orphanages in India are famous as paedophile centres for foreign missionaries and their faithful local converts who arrange the victims for them.)

I keep wanting to add something concerning this, but will leave off for now.

2. bigwowo.com/2010/06/asian-femal-celebrity-unio/

Quote:The Asian Female Celebrity Club (AFCC) Embargo

Posted on June 3, 2010 by bigWOWO


Jarah Mariano is the very first woman of Asian descent to become a Victoria’s Secret model. And like almost all of our Asian American female “firsts,” she’s dating a White guy. We support our celebrities, but they don’t date us or any men of color. It’s like there’s a Asian Female Celebrity Club (I’m adding this one to my lexicon, along with “community store”) that somehow decided that men of color would be excluded from their dating pool. When we see that the AFCC members as a general rule don’t date us, it kills us a little bit. We feel shortchanged, especially given how hard we work to promote Asian Americans trying to make a name for themselves.

In the Jamie Yeo and Zhang Ziyi posts, we’ve talked a lot about why this happens, how it happens, and the effect that it has on us when minority celebrities have race preferences. No, I don’t know if Jarah Mariano has a race preference, but to chalk up the fact that nearly 100% of Asian female celebrities only date or marry White guys to coincidence seems a bit irrational. It’s like tossing a dice and getting sixes a hundred times in a row. Pretty soon you realize that the dice are loaded.

[color="#0000FF"]Just last week, I was reading a short story by an Asian American female author. I told a friend, “This woman is definitely married to a White guy.” She asked how I knew. I told her, “It’s simple. Her main character is an Asian guy, and he looks nothing like any Asian guy I’ve ever met in real life. His character is closer to how a stereotypical White guy envisions Asian malehood.” We googled this author, and sure enough, the author was a fifty-something Asian woman married to a White guy. Her lack of knowledge came through in her writing. The effect of the AFCC race preference extends beyond what the pairing represents; it extends as well to the ignorant views that people in power propagate.[/color]


And some excerpts from comments:


we fell into the white man’s trap that the Native Americans resisted for so long after they became a conquered peoples—they tried to indoctrinate the Native kids in the white man schools, forced the white man’s god upon them, and outlawed their speaking in their native languages, etc…

my feeling is that what motivates some AFs who date/marry out is the reality that they don’t know who they are, so they think they’re white. on some level, they are full of self contempt because they don’t see their attitudes towards AM’s is an insult to their fathers, their brothers, all the males in their families.

i remember a few years ago at a house warming party for a friend of mine, i ran into an AF there who had worked with my friend some years ago. I talked to her a bit and found out she was adopted by a white family as a baby. She plain out told me she wasn’t Asian, she was white. She had no connection to her Asian side. This, despite having the map of Asia all over her face. This is a huge problem. You’re acculturated to be white, like her, and there’s no way to change who she fundamentally is. She can’t SEE that she has an Asian face!

[color="#800080"](Also see post 12 above on China's adoption policies: China apparently lets the west adopts its female children. Also see transracialabductees.org/politics/ that Dhu found)[/color]


<MR>- You nailed one thing that I feel many AA women hate to admit: it’s about status. Asian women with low self-esteem try to compensate. Just like Gucci bags and Prada shoes, white boy friends/husbands are the must-have accessory to show how far they’ve “advanced” in western society. It’s also another way to rebel/distance themselves from their heritage or anything that makes them seem “fobby”.

I’ve noticed that a large number of AA women with white boyfriends are also hopeless fashion whores. Having to fit the definition of ideal womanhood according to a purely orientalist and sexist viewpoint makes it even worse. It offers an easy way (and some AF believe it’s the ONLY way) to assimilate into white society. So, these AFs play up the stereotypes which only reinforce the established racial hierarchy.

(Not sure at all, but I got the impression the "FOB" abbreviation referred to those recently arrived to the USA(?) In which case, fobby would mean that such a 1st gen person person gives away that they only recently arrived?)


I’m just throwing out impressions and ruminations on the AA condition. Perhaps the Native American comparison was too dramatic. Sure, one was enforced, one had a choice. But the choices some AA’s made to assimilate led to the result that the white man’s socialization policies wanted for the Native Aerican.

How many second or third gen AA’s can speak the language of their grandparents, their great-grandparents? What do we know of our immigrant past? What do we know of our spiritual past? In the effort to assimilate, we lost part of ourselves, the things that make us unique and turned blandly “American” in the melting pot.

3. bigwowo.com/2010/05/the-asian-rake-and-jamie-yeo-in-singapore/

Discusses some Singaporean talk show or something featuring celebs(?)

Quote:The Asian Rake and Jamie Yeo in Singapore


Still, I thought it was good just to see Asian folk talking about issues in their society. Rake-man is from the U.S. but is living in Singapore, while everyone else is from Singapore. Jamie Yeo attended high school in the U.S.

Anyway, Rake-man and hot chick Jamie Yeo were the two guests on the show. Jamie was saying all kinds of things about Singaporean men…so I got curious. Oi. Sometimes it’s best not to get curious. She’s currently married to a Singaporean dude with whom she is separated, but she’s also engaged at the same time to…

[color="#800080"]<picture of Singaporean Yeo hugging her Brit fionce>[/color]

…a White guy from England! [color="#0000FF"]And then she wrote this on her celebrity blog: Caucasian male + asian female = the perfect match. What say you?[/color] [color="#800080"](starblog.stomp.com.sg/post.php?blogid=1302&cid=57401, haven't tried the link)[/color] [color="#0000FF"](If you’re reading the comments, “ang mo” means “foreigner” or “White person.”) It’s more of the same old “I treat all races equal but some animals are more equal than others” stuff that we always read.[/color]

I really really really really just don’t get it. Are there not enough single Asian guys in Singapore? It makes no sense. I’ve heard of similar things happening in Hong Kong and Japan and other countries. What’s up with that? How is it that more than forty years since the Civil Rights Movement whiteness still remains such a status symbol? Houston, we have a problem!

And Rake-Man, I’ve read your site and it looks like you sympathize with the Asian American male cause. With that in mind, I usually don’t cheer for PUAs, but couldn’t you do something to represent? Didn’t you have any tools in your toolbox to cockblock? [color="#800080"](To what? hilarious)[/color]


[color="#0000FF"]And one of the comments at the 3rd link posted this picture of some other E Asian woman and her western boyfriend drinking coffee. It looks like it's some advert/postcard. I can only read the English on there which says "My darling is a foreigner":

Post 2/2

Another item, found via the previous big wowo blog link above.

Apparently the idiocy is being consciously promoted to take root among the rich and glamorous in Singapore, and thus being encouraged as a trend there even among the everyday local women, while the country's (Chinese) men there are left scratching their heads as to what/why it's all happening. [Not enitrely sure how aware they are of the Asian American situation.]

Just as Singaporean women in the homeland rather than in America are now given the part of the AF, the role of the WM is played not by the American western male here but by the British expat. "Cute couple, la?" :fumes:

It's disgusting how this actually-sinister, deeply seedy topic is passed off as something cool and trendy.


Quote:Local guys not hot enough?

I have here an abstract from The New Paper which is posted on the 14th Feb 2010

(Note the paper's piece following below is dated valentine's day. Which seems to me like the paper is *promoting* AF/WM in Singapore as the definition of romance.)


Quote:Local guys not hot enough?

More female local celebs are hooking up with Caucasians

LATELY, it seems the appetite among local female celebrities for ang mohs has increased.

By Germaine Lim

14 February 2010

LATELY, it seems the appetite among local female celebrities for ang mohs has increased.

Last week, The New Paper broke the news on former TV host-actress Sharon Au's engagement to her French boyfriend as well as ex-actress Carole Lin's recent divorce from her French husband and subsequent romance with a Singapore-based Scot.

Other famous East-West pairings include actress Joanne Peh and Singapore-based US actor Bobby Tonelli, ESPN presenter Jamie Yeo and Englishman Thorsten Nolte, and celebrity blogger Xiaxue and her US engineer fiance Mike Sayre.

Class 95 deejay Vernetta Lopez, Radio 913 deejay Madeline Tan and 2003 Miss Singapore Universe Bernice Wong married Brits.

And who could forget sexy star Fiona Xie leaving MediaCorp to join her Aussie-American boyfriend in Hong Kong?

But before anyone gets up in arms and protests, some of [color="#0000FF"]these female personalities insist they aren't deliberately snubbing local guys.

They just get along better with Caucasians.[/color]

[color="#800080"](Ah, I recognise the "It's just a preference" line/excuse/automated response/answering machine.)[/color]

Carole, 36, told The New Paper: 'I can speak my mind and have more things to talk about with Caucasians. I only need to bring up one subject and the conversation will take a life of its own and go on for hours.

'Local guys are nice but they aren't as educated in the ways of the world as the Westerners.'

[color="#800080"](She has a short memory. That's not all the "ways of the world" that "westerners" are educated in. What about colonialism and oppression and genocide, and then - when all that became unpopular at last, they still won't leave people alone - pretending that now it's all a clean slate and saying they're so over racism that it's time for you to be ready to date/marry/sleep with them too ("else you're the racist"). <- She left out that bit.

Gah. Yuck. Puke.)[/color]

She quickly clarified that she is not an SPG (Sarong Party Girl) whom she describes as those who 'hang out at places frequented by Caucasians with the intention of hooking up with them'.

'I just happened to be at the same place at the right time.'

Carole's first husband is a Singaporean Chinese. They divorced in 2002 after three years of marriage.

Too loud for S'pore guys

She met her French ex-husband at Velvet Underground in 2006 and her current Scottish boyfriend over Facebook last year.

Ex-actress Cassandra See, 40, says she has never dated local guys because she's ' too loud' for them and thinks they prefer demure girls.

[color="#800080"](But how would she know? When she admits she's never dated them and that she can only surmise they prefer demure girls? Or is this the wrong question to ask?)[/color]

She divorced her German husband in 2003 after three years of marriage. Their son, Lukas, is 9. Cassandra has been dating a Korean guy since 2005.

For Bernice, her height requirement eliminates '95 per cent of local guys'.

The 32-year-old beauty queen is 1.77m and her English husband of two years, Anton Casey, is 1.85m.

Bernice, who's now a make-up trainer at her own Bernice Wong Beauty International company, added: 'I have never been able to click with local guys. Somehow, our personalities don't match up.

'I've only dated one local guy so my answers aren't a good benchmark.

'But I will say that the local guys I've met are pretty sheltered. [color="#0000FF"]I'd like them to be more masculine, not so 'baby-ed' and less childish.'[/color]

[color="#800080"](Wow. She's bought into all the psyops against E Asian men. She just badmouthed all her male relatives.)[/color]

Older female stars like Zoe Tay, Fann Wong and Huang Biren don't seem to have such problems with local guys.

[color="#800080"](But actor and singer Fann Wong at least is IIRC a famous Buddhist, which is probably why she doesn't turn herself into an export product, let alone a for-export-only product.

I mean, they dropped her into Shanghai Knights - leastways I think that was Fann Wong - to star as sister to Jackie Chan and Asian Female love interest of oh dear, his name escapes me - American western male. And while that just further propagated the perceived acceptability and supposed desirability of this increasingly-absurd one-way pairing and set a bad example, at least she didn't turn her life into one. Although more people may know the movie than her real-life choices. And then there was Taiwanese Shu-Qi as "exotic Asian love-interest" for the bald brit Jason 'how come when I do martial arts, I still get the Asian woman' Statham in Luc Besson's (?) Transporter #1. Yes even I do notice these things. Also, why are western men still pretending to do E Asian martial arts, again? More dabbling theft. First aliens want to steal E Asian women, then they try to steal E Asians' cool moves. Such wannabes.)[/color]

Former actress Biren, 41, married her Singaporean Chinese hubby in 1995, while Zoe, 42, wed local airforce pilot Philip Chionh in 2001.

Newlyweds Fann, 39, and actor Christopher Lee - he is a Singapore PR - held their nuptials last September.

The new generation of female personalities joins a burgeoning class of interracial couples.

Bernice attributes the rise in local interracial marriages to Singapore becoming a global village.

'So many people move in and out of the country. Locals are more exposed to people of other races,' she said.

However, Jamie and 987 deejay Rosalyn Lee stressed that local men definitely do not pale in comparison to their Caucasian rivals.

Even though Jamie is dating an ang moh, she says there are a lot of eligible local guys.

The 32-year-old said: 'They are definitely not second-rate. Otherwise, I wouldn't have married one.'

She split with husband of five years, Class 95 deejay Glenn Ong, last year. She revealed that marriage with Mr Nolte is on the cards and could happen soon.

She added: 'I know a lot of locals who are articulate, not sheltered, independent and have a great sense of humour.

'There are also a lot of Caucasian guys I wouldn't date. For me, personality is the most important thing.

'It's impossible to compare locals and Caucasians because there are nice and not-so-nice guys in both groups.'

Furthermore, there's nothing Caucasian guys have that Singapore men lack, Rosalyn said.

Not even height. Surprisingly, that has never been an issue for the 1.75m stunner.

Local fashion designer Wykidd Song, whom she dated for four years, is 'half a head shorter' than she is, but loved it when she wore her four-inch heels.

The 30-year-old, who is currently single, added: 'It's a bonus if he's taller. But I don't care if the guy doesn't mind.'

She says she prefers her partner to have Asian lineage because she likes that 'they understand where my roots are'.

'I find filial piety, which is very endearing to me, lacking in many ang mohs. Maybe I'm typecasting but they hardly call their parents. I can't understand why they have to live on their own once they turn 18.

[color="#800080"](Oh at last. Much to be said for traditional/heathen E Asians' filial piety.)[/color]

'I'm very family-oriented and I want my partner to be like that too.'

Rosalyn says she has dated only one foreigner, a Filipino-American, when she was 21.

The rest of her boyfriends have been Singaporeans, like Song and singer Ngak Ng, the frontman of local band The AMPs.

'The local guys I've dated are very cosmopolitan and well-travelled. We love Laduree (a renowned French pastry shop) as much as we do our kaya toast.

'I'm not closing any options, but it will take a spectacular ang moh like (US actor) Jake Gyllenhaal to sway me.

'If I can find one at home, why look elsewhere?


I'm not here to do a debate about Local men vs Foreigners but I feel really disturb...

They said that Local men are sheltered and not independent...

When they find Local men who are not sheltered and independent, they complained that Local men are un-romantic and no sense of Humor.

They complained that Local men are too short but when they find one who is taller, they complain that he is not well built...

When Local men show that they care and concern as friends, they got labelled as players...

I know that this is a ladies forum and I have no right as a man to speak here. But here I am, humbled before all, not to start a war or dispute but to let all see the truth behind...

It is not the ugly truth, the truth is never pretty and I do not need to sugar coat it but I think that some time... We men hope that Ladies can realise that... we are humans too, we are born to this land known as Singapore and we got our obligations to the nation, we got our difficulties in life... Who really understand us as Local men...
(Celebrities aren't a grand example of traditional people in any significantly-heathen society, but still... I didn't think it was going to be this bad.)

As for how the Singaporean women respond to the Singaporean man's questions above, see


There's apparently 83 pages of discussion on the above topic. I've only looked at page 1 and a bit of 2, but the answers were mostly disappointing, so I thought I'd stop. How depressing.

Oh and near the final comments to one of the bigwowo links from the previous post, I just spotted stuff from a site whose pages are so infuriating ... am going to have to leave it for another day. (But it's a typical source of all this psyops crap. :GrrrrrSmile
Post 1/2

More stuff to get through first.


Quote:Kingstonian Tar-and-Feather

Posted on June 7, 2010 by bigWOWO

(blog caption to typical photo - of AF in question smiling at WM husband - screaming "ideal marriage" #1Smile Hai Nguyen with her husband John after divorcing her supposedly sexist Vietnamese American ex-husband Greg

King posted this article in the FlashForward thread. He was posting it to say something about interracial relationships among African Americans, but the story I caught from the article was this one:

Quote:Hai Nguyen, 37, of Houston recalls the instant connection she felt after meeting her first Vietnamese boyfriend, Greg, in college. Nguyen says while she had to explain herself to white boyfriends, with Greg it was a feeling that “he so gets me, because we eat the same food, we like the same things, our families know each other and there is so little that needs to be said.”

With the enthusiastic support of her parents, she and Greg married. But their connection soon began to fade, due partly to Nguyen’s budding career as a business analyst, which clashed with more traditional expectations for her to “always have fresh food on the table.” The two divorced and Nguyen is now remarried to Jon, who is white.

“My parents have prejudices, but they’ve accepted it,” said Nguyen. She described occasionally feeling different with her parents and other single-race couples. “They know it’s inevitable. My native tongue will eventually fade, and history will take its course.”

I’m sorry, sister, but that’s totally uncool. Totally uncool. You have a bad divorce, and you use it not just to talk smack about your ex-husband, but you use it to talk smack about his “traditional” culture? I’ve met many White guys who marry Asian women and expect them to cook. I’ve met many White guys who marry White women and expect them to cook. (Links to the example at nytimes.com/2007/08/13/business/worldbusiness/13iht-workcol14.4.7104116.html) But somehow, a White guy is free to screw up and be treated as an individual, while an Asian guy who does the exact same thing sees his entire ethnicity tarred and feathered. Even within his own culture, people refuse to see an Asian man as an individual. Talk about throwin’ a brother under the bus.

And to the author Hope Yen: Why not give equality a “yen” of “hope” by letting “Greg” address these horrible accusations? If a black man had slammed black women a la Wesley Snipes, there’d be hell to pay. But when an Asian woman does the same thing a la Amy Tan or Maxine Hong Kingston, the media treats it as something perfectly normal. Talk about using the media to kick a brother…nay, all brothers…while we’re down!

I can’t believe this nonsense is still going on in the 21st century. We need to be building bridges, not attacking the powerless among us.

(blog caption to typical photo - of AF in question smiling at WM husband - screaming "ideal marriage" #2Smile Rescued by a White knight from traditional Asian sexism

Edit: pics from here.

Some of the comments:


I believe that the woman in this article did not say that out of maliciousness but the notion of her use of “traditional” applied to men in general, not specifically AM, is incorrect.

The reason why is because even though you and I acknowledge that men of all races harbor that “traditional” attitude, others don’t see it that way. Western society sees themselves as individuals, not stereotypes, which they have applied to AMs. We already have that stigma attached to us. Now, it matters not because most of the time, perception becomes reality.


June 7, 2010 at 10:14 am

This is yet another tiresome “Let’s throw Asian men under the bus for their traditional values, lack of understanding of women and place white men on a pedestal” article.


Ah…the ol’ White Knight Syndrome. Because, we all know, white men can do no wrong. I wonder when these AF being up the subject of sexism, they realize what kind of patriarchy they suffer under in this country. There must be a lot of Asian male senators, CEOs, presidents, police chiefs, media anchors, writers and lawyers keeping them down. Damn, Asian guys, give your sisters a break! Quit having such a stranglehold on western society!



Thanks for your comment! I see your point, but I agree with urb4n. I don’t think she was trying to be malicious, but with the power of the media combined with Orientalism, it once again stigmatizes us. Here’s why:

Virtually all traditional cultures are sexist, but that wasn’t how this journalist presented it. Hope Yen (man, that name is ironic!) wrote it as a comparison. First there was Hai dating White guys, but then she meets a Vietnamese guy who eats the same food as she does (you gotta love the silly straw men that some writers propose for dating Asian), and then she finds out that he’s too “traditional,” and then once again her parents have their “prejudices.” That “traditional” tag always gets put on Asian guys and Asian culture. I don’t think you can look at it outside of its racial context, and quite honestly, the story seems to focus in on it as a selling point, the same old Orientalist dichotomy between the backward East and progressive West.

Did you see the White version of the “fresh food on the table” story?


[color="#0000FF"]Notice that not once do they use the term “traditional.” Why? Because White men get individualistic portrayals. They’re already seen as beyond living within a traditional, stifling culture. The media treats them as strong men rather than traditional sexist automatons.

We saw something similar in the days after Katrina. Black men, according to the media, were “looting,” while White people were “finding.”[/color]


On a side note, I was thinking last night about how or what a reporter might ask me that would cause me to publicly point the finger at my spouse after a divorce. For example, no one knows why Tipper and Al are splitting; they’re pretty mum about it. That’s usually the way it is. So what got Hai to speak? I understand that reporters sometimes don’t tell the full story, but I find it strange that Hai or any divorce person would publicly tell the media any reason why she and her husband divorced, let alone pin it on “traditional” culture.


See, that’s one of the things I really hate about Asian Americans.

They sit there and try to believe that people are naturally good and all the bad things that white society places on them is mere coincidence and that there is no ulterior motive and agenda.

Suffice to say, they’re either stupid, willfully ignorant, or have no social spider senses.

Thomas’ post up top is proof of that.

“Oh, the reporter meant to say this but it came out wrong. We know all Asian men are unique people. White people know that too and I am sure that if the reporter was told, she would amend the story and get it re-posted the next day to reflect that.”

I mean, seriously? That’s my next focus. Is there a reason why Asian people think this way?


Wait, I thought one of the main reasons why white men have all this yellow fever is they prefer the more “traditional” Asian women. You know, the docile house wives who take care of the kids and the house and give their husband a foot massage when he returns from a hard day at work.

Since white women have become too individualistic and ambitious and now dares to compete against the men in the business world, those men look to the timeless exotic east where the women remember their place and serve their husbands with respect. Seriously, just look up those white rice chasers on the internet and you’ll find their commentary along these lines. Ah….more irony.


As for the story, this woman bottomline (regardless of malevolent intent or not) should NOT have dissed her own culture like that. She can spite her husband as an individual, but not culturally. She has no right to attack the entire culture (especially that of her own!)

And what I hate most is that last quote: “My native tongue will eventually fade, and history will take its course.” Is she willingly and intentionally going to allow her native tongue/entire culture to disappear like that? For shame I say.


Frank Chin was the first person to raise the question of the Asian American media and how it emasculates Asian men. He did this forty years ago. When he spoke, people wanted to look for a more “nuanced” approach. It was clear that Kingston including blatant historical and linguistic untruths in her work, but in the early 70′s people wanted to believe that truth was relative. So they searched for more nuance. They looked for little insignificant reasons not to take action or to offend people. They turned away from the main issues. And in the end, they got nowhere. The Asian American female suicide rate is through the roof, and Asian men still face emasculation and hidden anger. It makes sense, given that we didn’t act.

Contrast that to Martin Luther King who said that Jim Crowe had to end now. His book was called “Why We Can’t Wait.” Note the urgency in his tone. Malcolm X talked about taking one’s freedom. These social movers decided on action. Both men were extremely well read, but each had a point where he knew he had enough information to act, to speak. And then they did.

So you see, while I take an intellectual approach before acting–I read lots, debate lots, etc.–I think there’s a point where you have to just say that enough is enough. Call it as you see it. Raise the bar. Enough hand holding. I believe that if you speak the truth, good people will follow. The ignorant will remain ignorant, but that’s always the way it’s been.


Asian America is fundamentally broken in a very specific way and we’re simply debating one specific point. No one is whining; a term I dislike greatly because it’s used to trivialize the concerns of others and make them fearful of speaking out. It implies that we’re complaining without looking for a solution.

We’re talking about the emasculation of AM in North American society and the hand AFs play in it, not the suicide rates of AFs.


Thanks, TZ. I agree with everything you say. And Hubby is brave to confront an armed robber.

I thought of something interesting when I read your comment. Usually emotion is something that one associates with women, but men also emote. If you take away a man’s voice–to express his feelings and opinions, and to reduce him to a traditional patriarchal tyrant who simply barks at women to get food on the table–one might construe that as emasculating. For me, I think that was the main issue. They could’ve given Greg a voice. Even if he said, “This is how I’ve always done it, and I’m sorry,” I think that would have been less emasculating. At least he’d show what lies in his heart and mind.

But they totally silenced the brothuh! Cut out his tongue the same way the Kingstonians cut off our…

Okay, I’m saying too much.


The issue is not just Hai Nguyen. The problem is ultimately that the American media will instinctively and repeatedly promote this propaganda meme that “Asian guys are too traditional and sexist”–compared to “liberated” White boys.

The fact that you see this meme promoted ad nauseum from literature (like Joy Luck Club) to “news” (like this AP article) does suggest the American media has a tacit political agenda, which is to implicitly assert the supremacy of Whites males.

Moreover, the West in general and the USA in particular just love to glorify themselves as the embodiment of “progressive” Enlightenment values like liberty, individual freedom, blah, blah, blah–even as they ignores minor little issues that contradict these lies like America’s Gitmo Gulag, Abu Ghraib torture, and thinly disguised wars of aggression from Iraq to Afghanistan.


Now King, let’s say that you were of the type who mostly dated White, as Hai was (Greg was the only one). Now lets say that you had the same history–married the first black woman you dated, then divorced her for what were very stereotypical reasons. Now let’s say a reporter approached you and said, “King, I’m gonna write a report on interracial dating trends, and I want you to comment on your ex-wife.” (From my experience, reporters ALWAYS tell you why they’re interviewing you.)

I think you’d be unlikely to say, “Man, it was definitely a change going from all those white chicks to Jane. When I met Jane, it was a change–she actually knew about black people beyond what she saw in Tyler Perry movies and hip hop videos. But then Jane started acting gangstah on me like the tradition in our community: hand on the hip, other hand in your face, always complaining about how I never treated her with respect. So I dumped her, and now I’m happily married to white Becky. Of course my parents have their prejudices against White people, but luv conquers all. It’s inevitable.”

That would be a nasty thing to stick on your ex despite the positive superficial idea that you came from the same background. Neutral Observer would have a field day with your interview (NO, if you’re reading, we do miss you), as would White women competing for black men’s attention.

Most likely, King, I think you’d just refuse to comment on Jane, whether or not she fit stereotypes. That’s why no one knows why Tipper and Al are divorcing other than the unrevealing idea that they’re just going their separate ways. More than likely, even if Jane did what White people like to think Black women do, you wouldn’t reduce her to that. After all, you were once married to her. Classy people don’t smear their divorced exes in the open mainstream media in order to smear their exes with a racial stereotype (and again, from my experience, ALL reporters reveal why they’re writing an article. They’d say, “Hi this is Hope Yen, and I’m writing to get people’s opinions on interracial relationships” or “Hi, this is Hope Yen, and I’m trying to pin the tail on the Asian male…”) (That last is a link in the original , which I will get to some other time)


I’ve noticed the same thing regarding who has the power in the relationship.

If the AF is fobby, the WM holds all the power. If the AF is American born, she is the one who controls the WM. I think that AF also wish to date and marry out because they know they can’t control AMs.


Also, Hope Yen is equally to blame, if not more so.

Quote:he real question is not why her story was told, but rather, why have other stories not been told to balance it.

Or why it’s told differently, as I mentioned to Thomas. When White men want food on the table, it’s a joke about women needing a wife. When Asian men do it, it’s because they are “traditional.” Pin the tail…


If some reporter asked me about my ex, I’d say nothing but positive things. Or I’d say nothing at all.

I haven’t even brought up the issue of ol’ Hai posing for all those corny pictures with her new husband. That’s a crime as bad as any.


The point is that there are two Asian people involved–the writer and the subject, and one or both of them created a story that tars the Asian man. The comparison with the reporters who reported black men “looting” and white people “finding” after Katrina is the same. No one is saying that all black people loot, but the different treatment in the media begs the question of why the same meme keeps on coming back when we talk about Asian men or Asian culture.

[bloghost:] [color="#800080"](an ex-christian)[/color]

Quote:Kobu (a Korean christian): Men lead women, not the other way around, but a woman will fling all kinds of “shit-tests” at a man to see what he’s made of.

Is this really true?

I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian household, and it’s definitely true in that culture. There was a huge emphasis on “being a man.” Women followed men because that’s what God ordered, according to the interpretation by the church I was in.

But I think in Chinese culture, women typically lead men. Despite whatever the Kingstonians say (and they wouldn’t know anyway since they don’t marry or date non-White men), I think the typical Chinese relationship is more egalitarian, or even pro-female. Not sure about other Asian cultures.

[Leon says:]

Maybe if AF start dating black men or brown men in equal numbers, then all these AM complaints about IR would be moot. Shit, this chick could have found another Asian man who treated her better and I’m sure her parents would love that. But we know that all Asian men are traditionalist and sexist and an AF finding her escape in the arms of a white man is just par for the course. It isn’t just the media; many AF in IR are reinforcing this meme.


Maybe we should be directing more of the blame towards Hope rather than Hai. Maybe Hope was employing the Kristof Technique. I certainly don’t believe in censorship, but as I mentioned–if you put yourself in her shoes, it’s fishy, and you wonder whether or not it really is the truth.

IMO, it's both the well-trained AF reporter and the interviewee together behind it, but primarily the reporter.

The interviewee blabbed negatively - and stereotypically what's more - about her ex, which is indeed suspect as others above have noted.

But the reporter's:

- choice to scrutinise Asian male ex's "shortcomings" and pass that off as "traditional" and E Asian

- choice to compare Asian male ex with the preferred *western* husband's, whose shortcomings are of course invisible (as in, not for scrutiny) because "individual"

- choice to present tacky pictures of AF-WM marital bliss (can be compared to how I don't see many AF-AM couples on programming from the US at all, let alone happy ones)

About the bold bit in the following:

Quote:But I think in Chinese culture, women typically lead men. Despite whatever the Kingstonians say (and they wouldn’t know anyway since they don’t marry or date non-White men), I think the typical Chinese relationship is more egalitarian, or even pro-female. Not sure about other Asian cultures.

That's *exactly* what I thought when I came across how 'Padma Lakshmi' (an Indian-origin western media personality) - and a whole host of Indian and other such wo/men then and since - were brought in to go on about how Hindu men and even all of "Hinduism" were to blame for the spate of rapes in India. (Naturally these types only came out of the woodwork to comment on sexual violence recently, so as to conveniently ignore the eternal jihad against Hindu women and the christian crusade against the Hindu Vanavasi women in the north east and elsewhere.)


Padme-Lakme - and similars - are famous for not dating or marrying Hindu men at all.

IIRC: Padme-Lakme was married to Salman Rusdie, the famous on-and-off islamic but one who's been consistently anti-Hindu. Then she got married to some western guy. She then cheated on the poor dude and got pregnant by another unfortunate western guy, which sent her husband #2 so angry the 'couple' had a huge spate all over international TV/radio/newspapers about it. He/she divorced, and he already publicly denounced *her* character - note, not the character of Hindus or Hindu religion - as a nasty piece of work. Maybe she felt sour about how he had her pegged, and so decided she would attack men she never knew out of general spite, and tried to hide her own very public embarrassment by blaming her ancestral religion, in the hopes that this may eclipse her own relationship faux-pas in the public's memory? Who knows.

Whether she *ever* dated any pseculars of Indian (once-were-Hindu) origin, I wouldn't know. But what is certain is that no Hindu or any other heathen man would ever have formed any romantic liaison with a non-heathen like her. So how she became so know-it-all about Hindu men or Hindu society is anyone's guess. If she ever was oppressed by men, they clearly weren't Hindu. But her range of men however *did* include the Indian islamic (includes the rare "progressive" flavour in there, as Salman Rushdie is both islamic and considered "progressive"), as well as a sampling of western males. She should stick to talking about what she knows about.

Note: her dad was not a Hindu either, but a secular person of Hindu origins. And IIRC, she grew up in the west, so her interaction with any Hindu men - even on the street or anyone driving her in an auto-rickshaw, or the persons ladeling out the temple food for her Food Planet type episodes - would have been extremely limited to a few words and hardly a glance in her direction.

[As usual, I speak of traditional Hindus, obviously not the kind like Padme "I'm a Hindu and I've been asked to come here to testify that Hinduism is to blame for <insert crime>" Lakme.]
Post 2/2


Quote:June 8, 2008

Maxine Hong Kingston, Ignorance, and the Battle for Mainstream Recognition (Asian American Feminism Pt. 4)

Quote:"What in G0d's name??? They let ASIAN-MAN-HATER#2 Maxine Hong Kingston write a new introduction to one of the RARE humanizing portrayals of an Asian man as a s*xually-potent being??? WTF and HTF did THAT happen??? Shyt, why not let David Duke write a new intro to the Autobiography of Malcolm X for chrissakes???"

--"Krome" from Modelminority.com

(I don't know much US history or current events, but IIRC David Duke is a white supremacist. I think Elst once discussed him, I could be wrong.

Anyway, there's a parallel with the Kingston example above in how the Wendy Donigers - including native anti-Hindus - are repeatedly invited to write about Hindus and Hindu religion in western "academe".)

The dialogue above is a classic from the Asian American blogosphere. I've seen it quoted a few times. This may be the first and only time you see a 44's blog post link to mm.com, but I have to commend the commenter Krome for his insightful observation. While I wouldn't condone the language that followed Krome's quote above (which you can see in the link), I think he's 100% right about the hypocrisy and/or ignorance of the book publishers. Considering the fact that Kingston has spent her entire career emasculating Asian men (through the aforementioned essay by our friend Krome), promoting a culture of pseudo-feminist narcissism (It takes a real egomaniac to name her autobiography "The Woman Warrior," especially when she hasn't even fought anyone or achieved anything of value), distorting important Chinese myths (Mulan and Yue Fei are two different characters), making up lies about Chinese culture (contrary to Kingston's words, the Chinese words for "slave" and "woman" are not the same), and turning Asian American literature into a black hole that sucks the life out of our community rather than uplifts the level of intellect and thought of our people, it's incredibly ironic and hypocritical that the publishers hired her to write the introduction to a book that goes against everything she has spent her career destroying. As Krome correctly implies, letting Kingston write a new intro to "The Lover" is like letting David Duke write a new intro to the Autobiography of Malcolm X. She just happens to be the same color as the people she oppresses.

Recognizing the indefensible lies that Kingston perpetuated about us, these days it seems that Kingston has very little support even among hardcore activists. Reappropriate Jenn, for example, who calls herself an Asian American feminist, usually deflects criticisms of Kingston by saying that there are other--therefore implying better--Asian American feminists, though Jenn still somewhat defends Kingston. She, of course, is right on the first part; wrong to defend Kingston though. AsianBGirl, Sargassosea, and Xian say the same, though without defending Kingston. They too are right.

Where some of us diverge, however, is on our ideas on how to best cope with a mainstream that is hostile towards our own recognition as human beings.


Given the fact that the toxic Kingstonian "feminism" is mainstream and supported by mainstream institutions, I don't think it's enough to simply concentrate on the good while ignoring the bad. We need to stamp it out and take over the mainstream. Working by ourselves is good for the time being, but ultimately it's not enough, and we should always keep the final goal of conquering the mainstream in mind.

Here's where we agree (I don't know if everyone agrees on #2, but I haven't yet heard any substantial counter-arguments):

1. Kingstonism is mainstream which means that it's the form of Asian American Feminism most accepted by white folk.

2. Kingstonism is a terrible form of feminism and doesn't accomplish anything.

3. There are real Asian American feminists out there.


While I agree with Xian that we need to build it, practically I think we have to go after mainstream coverage. Even if we decide to start small, part of our goals should focus on destroying that which poisons us. We should be intent on destroying mainstream ideas and replacing them with our own so that we can harness that institutional support. My reasoning is simple. Given the reach of the mainstream--through broadcast media, mainstream news outlets, influence in the universities, along with the paid ivory tower figureheads who promote Kingstonism--there is no way that a small band of disparate feminists can maximize their efficiency in getting the message out without taking aim at the mainstream and seeking mainstream support. We eventually want the funding, the airwaves, and the media coverage. Even here as we speak and learn, we haven't yet identified any strong Asian American feminists who are creating the intellectual ideas that can liberate Asian American women from Kingstonian orientalism. Why is it so hard to find them? It's because we are fighting against the tide of the mainstream. We shouldn't be fighting against the tide. The tide should be supporting us. If we don't have the goal of changing the tide, we'll always be swimming upstream. As Noam Chomsky said, the media "manufactures consent" with its pervasiveness and repetition. While we need to build up the real feminists, we also need to stop the fakes and liars.

I think it's clear: Real feminists can't live side by side with the Kingstonians because our ideas don't mesh well with one another. We promote truth; Kingstonism promotes lies and distortions. We celebrate ourselves; Kingstonism celebrates the supposed rescuing of Asian culture by Western culture. We promote compassion; Kingstonism promotes narcissism.


Skipped parts - which can be read at the original link - as I'm not all that interested in the discussion on "feminism". Lots of Chinese and other E Asian women avoid it like the plague. It's only some christian Asian women who tend to be drawn to it, in order to liberate the (actually-oppressed) christian women of their kind - from what is actually the fallout of christianism. And of course some modern Asian men tend to be drawn to "feminism" - the word and concept - in order to compensate for real or perceived historical wrongs. The difference is such E Asian male feminists don't attack other Asian men, whereas the oft-seen [angelsk-speaking] Indian male feminists are actually the usual pseculars who tend to project themselves as the good guys and every other Indian - especially Hindu - male as the bad guy: i.e. they decry the evil done by "all" [other] ethnic men to ethnic women, but in doing so they particularly want *you* -the observer- to be aware and recognise that the speaker is not bad and is indeed commendable, for the very fact that *he* denounced all the others for their (alleged) collective crime first. <- Yes, it's very convenient to denounce masses of anonymous (not to mention mostly-innocent) Others, and play the eternal hero oneself, I'm sure.

But it's been my experience that the real pro-women people in the subcontinent are actually the heathens, including memorably the Hindoo males of older generations. (Their pro-female stance is subtle - but unmistakable. Subtle because their stance/their view is natural and not-artificial - i.e. their standpoint does not scream for attention like the pseudo-egalitarians that project themselves as feminists and want to be recognised as such. While the proof that the aforementioned Hindoos' stance is pro-female lies in the fact that in the minds of female generations in their vicinity and family, they create an immunity to social engineering and a willingness to defend Hindoo society/tradition including Hindoo males against alien and alienated attacks. I can't think of better proof at this moment. No there is none, I think.)

The fact is, heathens think like animals do: they don't see and hence don't believe in a gender divide, but act as a community unit.

Again: But it's been my experience that the real pro-women people in the subcontinent are actually the heathens, including memorably the Hindoo males of older generations. <- I suppose it's like jaewhan/the bloghost said - see previous posting - about Chinese culture being rather pro-woman. It's funny he noticed that. Because that's actually a heathen perspective. A lot of E Asian female - heathen - defenders of E Asian society/culture/tradition [religion] (defending against brainwashed local fembot as well as general alien attacks) perceive and experience their society that way. It is a valid and true view of their reality, one that the christowest never allows a glimpse of to the audience that listens to the christowest and christoconditioned.

I don't want to keep drawing parallels with the kind of crap Hindus have to contend with, that's not really what this thread is for. But the line about Kingston, that

Quote:She just happens to be the same color as the people she oppresses

is exactly the same with every anti-Hindu in India. They're not outed for their ideologies (and they all have an ideology) and the ideological impetus in their anti-Hinduism, just because the oppressors now look Indian. Before, they just looked British/Euro-colonial, so the oppressors' motivations and their alien status was immediately obvious to Hindus just by looking at them. Now, the anti-Hindus and traitors look like Indians hence Hindus. And their inculturation and cryptochristianism (catholic Ambika Soni with her bindi) is further used to expressly force the misidentification all the more.
Post 1/?

This set of posts is going to diverge from the actual topic. Today, I'd started off wanting to post from (among others) the following link


but I got distracted as it led to me to pages on "goldsea.com", an Asian American site for Asian Americans. And from there I ended up on the topic at hand for the moment.

Goldsea's main page mentioned that 3 Asian Americans were in the final 5 for Miss America and that an Asian American won: an Indian American.

1. I then read what I anticipated (the blue bit in the following):



Nina Davuluri was contested by two other Asian American women in the final five before being crowned Miss America Sunday night in Atlantic City.

Davuluri made history by becoming the first woman of Indian descent to win the nation’s top beauty pageant. This was also the first time that three Asian American women were among the five finalists. Lee was named first runner up and Yeh, fourth runner up.

“I’m so happy this organization has embraced diversity,” said Davuluri at the press conference following the pageant. “I’m thankful there are children watching at home who can finally relate to a new Miss America.”

Davuluri also made history by becoming the second consecutive New Yorker to win the Miss America crown. She succeeds Mallory Hagan whose term was cut short by several months due to the pageant’s decision to reschedule and move the annual event to Atlantic City from Las Vegas.

Davuluri captivated the judges and the crowd with an energetic Bollywood fusion dance and by her intelligent responses. She plans to apply the $50,000 scholarship winnings toward tuition at the medical school she plans to attend. Her father is a doctor in her hometown of Fayetteville near Syracuse.

(Oh no, not again. Bollywho dancing has replaced traditional Hindu dancing as the new "Indian culture".)

First runner-up Crystal Lee of San Francisco is just as brainy and ambitious as Davuluri — and not afraid to show it. Her pageant platform was “Women in STEM’ (Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math). She has two Stanford degrees, one in biology and a master’s in communication. Even her talent segment was highbrow — classical ballet. Her ambition is to start a tech company.

Among the contestants vying against Crystal Lee, Miss California, was Crystal Lee, Miss Hawaii. The alphabetical introduction of the talent performances of two contestants of Chinese heritage with same a murmur through an audience who thought it was a gaffe. But Hawaii’s Crystal Lee — a graduate of the University of Hawaii — set herself apart with a contemporary dance number.

Fourth runner-up Rebecca Yeh, 20, of Nisswa, Minnesota is a junior at Ohio Northern University where she’s studying to become a clinical pharmacist. She has been earning money as a violin instructor since the age of 13. She also performs regularly as a soloist, as a member of a string trio and a string quartet.

The crowning of Nina Davuluri wasn’t greeted with universal applause. Those who had trouble grasping the concept of a non-white Miss America sniped at her with racist tweets.

“I have to rise above that,” Davuluri said at her press conference. “I always viewed myself as first and foremost American.”

Here were the expectations:

a. One *expects* the racist outbursts to have been along the lines of "An arab/muslim/al qaeda has won". These are WASPy Americans fuming after all. They see a brown person and declare that if it doesn't look South East Asian (i.e. no hint of what they'll find is "Mongolian" by race) they will declare it is Arab. Just like even India's pre-christoislamic south Hindu classical music is frequently used in western cinema for islamic settings in the middle east/Arabia. [<= Which deliberate ignorance is a form of white racism by the way. It is a form of negationism of Hindu religio-culture and the christowestern selling off of said Hindu religio-culture to islam. Everything brown, in the christowest's mind, is islamic and hence belongs to a monotheism that way.]

b. The winner's parents are Hindus originating from Andhra Pradesh according to Wacky. It was relevant to find this out beforehand, because I wanted to know how well I can predict the AmeriKKKan mindset. (And I did.) So the next part of the prediction:

c. Then when people reveal she's not muslim let alone arab but of Hindu parentage (from the Indian subcontinent), one knows that WASPies will descend for a second round and declare that "Hindus butcher muslims and christians in India" and are hence "even worse than Al Qaeda" and are "racists because they are casteists" - never mind that subcontinental Hindus are one ethnicity. (Oh, you know this is going to happen. It always happens. When does a christist NOT bring up "Hinduism=caste=the *worst* form of 'racism' known to mankind. It's *even* worse than the christoislamic slavery of Africans, because we say so (and we want to draw attention away from our own christian racism that killed over tens of millions of Africans)." And of course, never mind that Europe until a rather recent century had castes and casteism/untouchability also, flourishing under devout christianism no less.

- Turns out that, as expected, Americans had indeed been identifying her with islam (the way Sikhs tend to get regularly attacked as "muslims" for being turbaned). They have accused her of being linked with Al Qaeda etc.

This is typical WASPy treatment of all people of the Indian subcontinent, especially all Dharmics: AmeriKKKans think - they don't just think, they *want* - all the Indian subcontinent to be islamic. The Indian who acted as part of a duo with John Cho in the movie that allowed the latter to move on to bigger movies like Star Trek - "Harold and Kumar" - that movie's Indian protagonist as well as [or who is the same as?] the Indian director-actor of some minor US movies were regularly dissed by Americans as being "Arabs", "Go back to Arabia". Despite the Indian actor-director not being islamic or even christian. (Don't know if he was a Hindu, but IIRC imdb said he was a vegetarian. I could be remembering wrong or confusing him with some other Indian American in US cinema, but I *do* remember the comments.)

- Even *more* predictably, the defensive Americans made a great point of accusing the overt-racists in America of their racism in their labelling her "a muslim and Arabian", by explaining that 'Arabia is not India. And not all Indians are in the Al Qaeda.' Never mind most Indians are not even in islam let alone in the Al-Qaeda and that most Indians are of the kind that islam [and christianism, such as the christo US] considers its primary victim/prey. E.g. AmeriKKKan Baptist money funds the christian terrorist outfit NLFT etc which has genocided Hindus in Tripurar/Nagaland area.

What the Defensive American forgot to explain is that Hindus are the anti-thesis of islam. And that islam/al Qaeda being a missionary monotheism has more in common with christianism (incl. the WASPy kind) than islam/christianism has in common with Hindus. Indeed, that Hindus have more in common with Chinese, Greek, Japanese, pre-christian African, native American and pre-christian European religions than with christoislamism.

Instead, no mention of how her ancestry never was muslim and was instead the victim of islam. To the tune of at least 90 million Hindus genocided by islam before the colonial period, as per Ali Sina and his FaithFreedom site.

By not distinguishing between Hindu and muslim, the Defensive American side is making the same *racist* mistake as seen in the western film music composers who regularly pass of Hindu classical as firstly "ethnic" and then especially as "the sounds of the middle-east and islam" in western movies. I've already discussed examples of this once before, will try to find it again and link it here. Western cinema also regularly likes to cast Indians as middle-eastern islamics. IIRC, Aishwarya Rai was roped in to play some middle-eastern muslim (or it was on her schedule at one point, she was meant to play an Algerian I think), because to the christowest there is no heathen east. To the ueber-racist christowest, people are either 1. [christian or ex-christian] caucasian west, 2. islamic middle-east aka Arabian (which subsumes Iran as "Arabia", hence Persian Gulf got dubbed Arab Gulf during the previous US-Arab wars, and Hindu *India* is clubbed as islamic Arabia by extension too; and so the christowest is already perfectly happy with TSP and BD taking over India for islam: they already think Hindus *are* muslims) AND 3. "Mongolian" race of the Far East and SE Asia (who are dubbed as having no religion and especially no Gods, "only philosophies" - which is another arch-racism.

- Angry comments responding to the Defensive American's distinction between Arabia and India and especially that Andhra Pradesh is almost 90% Hindu naturally followed along the lines of my prediction in c: (implicitly: her being Hindu is "worse" because) Hindus are even more hateful than muslims/islam, because - "don't you know" - the US media (last seen inventing mass graves of muslim albanians by Serbs in Yugoslavia, followed by reporting that Modi's election to BJP's PM candidate *caused* the muzaffarnagar *backwards* in time)... The sentence again: Hindus are "even more hateful" because US media lied to the all-too-willing-to-believe, anti-heathen christo Americans that "Hindus are the ones persecuting muslims (and christians) in India". [Sort of like how US media kept saying it was Serbs persecuting the muslim Albanians and catholic Croats and Americans believe that too, though it was the other way around.]

Christowest sides with christoislam - they're natural allies because christianism=islam - since there is an instinctive aversion to all "paganism". To the colonial Brits in India too, muslims were their "unruly friends", the more "savage" version of themselves, they believed in a god and had a religion they could understand, whereas the christobrits viewed Hindus as their real enemies in India: the muslims believed in an invisible mono-god and had a religion the christoBrits could therefore understand and at least relate to.

- I didn't immediately see "Hindu caste and racism" (or "Indians and skin-colour") pop up in the American Defence article. Maybe it was because the writer in question was South American(?) - or something not WASPy at any rate.

But then, of course AmeriKKKan media - courtesy of Huffington Post this time - would get a willing *native*-looking vocalist to argue "Indians are more racist (hence Americans are less racist), I know because I am Indian <cue excerpts from random Indian people who agree and from unrepresentative Indians>". The willing native that the christowest hired to badmouth Indians - since HuffPo's "white" reporters can't call "brown" Hindus racists after all, since racism is christoislamic and not heathen, and since Hindus were always the victims of christoislamic racism incl colonialism and slavery -

the native hireling then disses India [and with it Hindu religion - though only by implication here - since Hindus are the majority, and since many of the accusers are predictably Indian christians]. Will get to this latter tactic in HuffPo after the proof of the American Defense:

cont. in next post
Post 2/?

2. theatlanticwire.com/entertainment/2013/09/first-indian-american-miss-america-has-racists-very-very-confused/69439/

Quote:The First Indian-American Miss America Has Racists Very, Very Confused

Alexander Abad-Santos 198,914 Views

Sep 16, 2013

Last night, the first Indian-American Miss America was crowned and opened the door for many racists to complain about her skin color and reveal their troglodyte-like understanding of geography and religion. These racists showed that Americans are not only capable of being racists, but also very un-educated racists. Here are some of the night's racist comments and just how sad America can be:

Racism Fail: "An Arab/Muslim Won Miss America"

Nina Davuluri is Indian-American. She was born in Syracuse to parents of Indian ancestry. She has has lived in Oklahoma, Michigan, and now New York City. She is not an Arab. The actual distance between Saudi Arabia and India is over 3,000 miles—about the distance from Georgia (the state) to Bolivia.

Also, the country from where Davuluri is from (the United States) is not a predominantly Muslim country (and it shouldn't matter if Davuluri is Muslim or Arab). The part of India where Davuluri's parents hail from, Andhra Pradesh, is not predominantly Muslim, either. It's around 88.8 percent Hindu.

Racism Fail: Miss USA Is Not a Part of Al Qaeda Because She Is Indian-American

There are claims that Davuluri is an Al Qaeda plant. These people don't seem to honestly believe Davuluri is a member of Al Qaeda (but hey, who knows), but are making the claim because they want to call her patriotism into question by equating her with terrorists who they mistakenly believe are the same ethnicity as her. They don't seem to understand that Al Qaeda is not a race or ethnicity. Again, take note of the map above and remember that the majority of 9/11 hijackers were Saudi Arabian citizens. They were not American. They were not New Yorkers. They were also not Indian.

Racism Fail: Bollywood-style Dances Are Not "Egyptian"

Davuluri performed what she called "Bollywood" dance, which is the name for India's extremely long, musical-and-dance heavy movies. These are modern-day dances which have evolved over time. That, on the right is a <crossed out word: sari> gagra-choli or lenga-choli and it is very different from a burqa. And the headscarf Davuluri is wearing is worn very differently than a hijab.

(If people can't tell the difference between a midriff-baring gagra choli and an all-covering burqa, AmeriKKKans are more ignorant than I thought.

Also, why is the traditional Hindu dress like gagra choli etc being associated with bollywho and item numbers in India?)


Typical ignorance. A lot of what gets passed off as islamic "culture" is actually Indian even Hindu in origin. E.g. what's now called Iranian and Egyptian "belly dancing" is actually dancing that was taken there by the "Gypsies". Same thing for how Gypsy music often gets passed off as "Middle-Eastern" or even "east-European/Russian" or even "(modern) Greek" and "Spanish".

Also, there's no evidence that the ancient Egyptians - the *actually* ethnic/native Egyptians, not to be confused with the Copts then other Middle-Easterners/Arabs who invaded Egypt and ethnically replaced the locals - ever did so-called "belly dancing".

Even today, it is dancing done in harems in Arabia to Tunisia, and in private Iranian homes too. This was "imported" from India along with the enslaved Hindus that islam forcibly "imported" from India, who evolved into the Gypsies.

The reason one can still hear authentic Indian Hindu folk music in northern Indian villages that sounds like "gypsy" music to western ears, is because gypsy music is *derived* from that Hindu folk music. C.f. how you can find authentic bluegrass and all kinds of jazz-roots music in African villages: they didn't copy African Americans, it's because "modern" African-American musical genres are rooted in their historical music back in their African homelands.

Cont. in next
Post 3/?

But back to the matter at hand.

3. Anyone could have seen this next coming: in timely fashion, an "indigenous" voice hired specifically to badmouth Hindu India as "more racist" than American racists. Not merely to neutralise the American racism and make people forget the christoracist comments against the Indian-American crowned as Miss America, but to generate and turn the indignation onto Indians: to "teach" readers about the "India and Indian behaviour/culture/civilisation [religion]" that the christowest wants its readers to take from all this. I.e. as usual, christowest controls the discourse on what Indians "actually" think - and as usual, by hiring a native to say the White Words. This thread's actual topic is coincidentally useful in that there is already a term. I.e. the hired natives are the Indian Kingstonians (the Romila Tapars). Once their writing establishes the "Indian's opinions/views", the west will feel comfortable in taking over the topic from there and repeating the same: 'look, our hired token Indian and her selective quoting "proves" what we're saying: <note we - the christowest - are invisible in this dialogue>, it was *she* who said/"proved" that Indians are the "real" racists. We're merely using her "data". And never mind that we specifically hired her for her views aligning with us, and never mind that moreover our social engineers - shaping modern Indian and Indians - *trained* her in her pompous "righteous indignation" attitude to diss her country of ethnic origin and its people, and *trained* her on what part of the "Indian" psyche to perceive and believe in and consequently to "reveal"/narrate/parrot to our own audience.'

[Note that that same behaviour is experienced by Asian Americans in what they call "Kingstonianism": Asian faces - like Maxine Hong Kingston - hired by the christowest to smear Asian culture as an evil, using -NOTE- a *christowestern* script instilled into the Asian hirelings' mouths via social engineering. So the robots are programmed to pronounce views that "magically" coincide with what the christowest likes to have propagated about eastern Asians/E-Asian culture and likes to hear, as a feeling of "confirmation from a native". The christowest thereafter pretends it is merely repeating what "Asians" have "established about Asians' own culture" - but which was merely the christowestern perspective on Asian culture ventriloquised through their programmed Asian mental-likenesses. I will get to the example in the final post, which at least does belong in this thread. But first:]

So the ventriloquist in this next newspiece is the christowest - via its media arm, the US media, HuffPost.

The sockpuppet in question is the native hireling and her handpicked voices who reflect back to the christowest the "India" they want to believe in/the idea of India they want to popularise, which reflection she was socially-engineered for (and there are countless clones of her all over, more even than Asian American Kingstonians I suspect).

Note all discourse on automatic American racism is always reduced to - by American puppeteers even when ventriloquising through sockpuppets - "but you all - whom our kind are racist against, as we just demonstrated loudly again - are racists too. To your own kind! How could you! And you're worse at racism than we are! Proof? See our hireling, who tells it like it is/like we want it to be known."

This particular autoresponse is very KKK: Remember the response to charges of racism of the white supremacist director of the arch-racist pro-KKK movie "Birth of a Nation". First as a background: this infamous movie is revered by KKK and neo-nazi types for like-minded supremacist Wagner's track "pseudo-valkyries" soundtracking the "saviour" KKK riding down to "deliver" their "white women" from the molestations of the -horror of all white supremacists- "evil-because-miscegenated half-African half-Europeans" (dubbed "mullatoes" or something). [Note the molestations existed only in the movie, which did not pretend to be historical but to "predict" what would happen - as per the fears of christo AmeriKKKa back then - if Africans were liberated and got equal rights: they would grab power, forcibly "miscegenate" with 'white' women, and produce "miscegenated" people who would then be evil because they would be as "intelligent" as the white man and as "evil" as the African.]

I can't remember the details, but we studied this segment - and the summary of the movie - in how cinema was often used for dawaganda. (IIRC this famous US movie of around the WWI era or so inspired much of the following nazi propaganda movies in Germany too. Recall that most nazi "innovations" have an AmeriKKKan inspiration, e.g. euthanising disabled people and other "undesirables".) Anyway, when the racist director of Birth of a Nation was called out on his intolerance by mildly-troubled voices in the christowest, the director decided to make an even louder and brasher movie/series of movies/"epic" of n hours long on Intolerance. I think it was called Intolerance too. IIRC this was on another christist/biblical theme about Jews being discriminated against by the ancient Egyptians and enslaved by the latter. Cinema analysis explained this latest product of the director as him essentially saying that he wasn't racist because, Look, he sympathised with the poor biblical Jews being set upon by the evil Egyptian pagans: "that was truly evil slavery and evil racism/discrimination", but his/KKK's blind hatred of Africans and especially of "miscegenation" was "justified" racism, he argued.

People can try to minimise this mentality as being but "typical" of the time and place, but the one-drop rule still exists, no? And American govt policy included sterilising native American women upto the late 1970s. In the 1930s that other hyper-pro-KKK Margaret Mitchell wrote her pro-KKK racist trash Gone With The Wind, which got turned into another "epic" movie - fortunately the directors left out the pro-KKK segments from the book (which I didn't read - I don't read junk - but its KKK stance is famous. Note: it's not merely the general American racism against Africans seen at the time the story was set in, the book/author itself is specifically in agreement with the KKK's views). Yet people still swoon all over not just the movie, but the book as "great" literature too. Only Hitler's crap got banned. Then again, the bible's still not banned and it's been demonstrated to be the source of racism.


Found via wacky, of course (can note how quick it is in collecting all such views). Original contains many links in the body of the text, as well as screengrabs of twitty/facebleh type quotations.

Quote:Why Miss America, Nina Davuluri, 'Would Never Win Pageants In South Asia'

The Huffington Post | By Mallika Rao Posted: 09/16/2013 4:11 pm EDT | Updated: 09/18/2013 1:26 am EDT

Last night, Nina Davuluri from Syracuse, NY, became the first Indian-American Miss America. She took a calculated risk -- pitching herself as the "diverse" contestant, and dancing to a Bollywood song in the talent segment even though contest insiders reportedly warned her the performance would be "too foreign."

The risk paid off. While the usual suspects took to Twitter to wail about Davuluri's win, most tweets were peppered in happy exclamation marks.

But there was an unfortunate irony to the win, noted mostly by Indian and Indian-American writers.* Davuluri is dark-skinned. In India, where skin color is a national obsession, you likely wouldn't see someone of her complexion in a pageant, much less winning one.

* Speaks of the Indian equivalent of the Asian Americans' Kingstonians. No one else saw any irony here. The girl might not be considered the "most beautiful woman in India" for other reasons: in a country of a billion Indians, there are likely to be some Indian women who are prettier still. For reasons of statistical probability: since there are many more Indian-looking women in India to choose from.

But christoconditioned hireling has found christo- and other christoconditioned voices like herself to agree with her. Christianism is obvious from Syrian christian names, and christoconditioning is obvious even from the title referring to Indian as "South Asia".

Twit feed screengrab follows:

Quote:Anna John (a 'indian'-christian American girl): "What's interesting is Miss America Nina Davuluri would never win pageants in South Asia because she'd be too dark to be considered beautiful."

Kushan Mitra: "The question is whether a girl as dark as Nina Davuluri could possibly have won Miss India? Knowing our fascination for fairness, maybe not!"

Satish Kolluri: "Newly crowned Miss America Nina Davuluri is too dark to win Miss India in India"

Note: Kushan above (and Satish Kolluri too) exemplifies my earlier comment made on Indian male fembots, but which equally applies to anti-Hindus too who always start with "As a Hindu myself, I hate <general Hindus, i.e. all other and actual Hindus> for <insert accusation against Hinduism>".

In Kushan's case, see how he speaks about "*our* fascination for fairness" but he actually implies - with his whole "perceptive" comment (i.e. with the subtletly of a sledgehammer hammering away at your head) - that he is clearly not among those of this opinion, which is actually only held by all Other Indians than himself - minus those who would also diss All Other Indians like he would - else "why would he have made such a 'perceptive' remark if not to denounce such a view"? I.e. the use of the word "our" refers to Indians: his statement is actually, "(my) knowing *Indians'* fascination for fairness". "It is sadly epidemic in 'our' country. Among 'our' population. Among all those others who merely look like me. But I'm not infected, as I actually notice and denounce these things in Others, please note. See how quickly I denounce all others as less human than myself and less human than all christowestern society. Am I not an insightful, deeply introspective and humane person? A western person trapped in brown skin. *Confounded* to share my ethnicity and features with the criminal masses of Indians I just denounced? Am I not a better person morally?" I hate these losers. Huffpo should make Mallika Rao share her paycheck with this guy. Kach$$$ing.

But I (as in "Husky") and everyone else can psycho-analyse - and better than They can. I can make far more perceptive comments about what They all think. Because their minds are an open book. They're not just racists against their own ethnic population, they have a Messiah Complex of being the One True Good Guy/Gal or The Few Good Men. This is a christian complex: christianism pretends it is The Only Religion that invented Love (and Altruism), and that, until christianism invented it, the world - i.e. the pre-christian heathen populations - never had such notions. And that it took christianism to teach others these things.

Quote:Writing at FirstPost, Lakshmi Chaudhury quipped that Indians prefer their beauty queens "vanilla, preferably accessorised with blue contact lenses."

(I recently read some comment about this "Lakshmi Chaudhury" somewhere. I think it was she. The name sounds identical. IIRC the commenter listed her with Barkha Dutts and Suzanne 'Arundhati' Roy types.

Anyway, Chaudhury lies. It is not Indians who prefer this. It is the minority - and elitist - Indian *modeling* agencies who have this preference. And - as all know - India's modelling agencies work with, alongside and FOR the western cosmetic & fashion & fashion-ragazine industries. Famous for selling coloured contact lenses, skin-lightening lotions, stilleto heels, lame handbags, bad shampoos, hair lighteners, foundations and other make up junk, and lame wannabe-western 'Indian' counterparts to western fashion & men's ragazines, etc.)

She cites a stark fly-on-the-wall report from weekly training sessions for the 2003 Miss India contest. Every contestant was "taking some sort of medication to alter her skin, particularly in colour" according to the embedded writer, Susan Runkle. Indeed, the winner that year, Sonali Nagrani, looks more European than Indian.

(No. She is in the minority of fair Indians, but her features still resemble the range of Indian. Not European.)

Quote:Regimens were prescribed by the pageant's in-house doctor, a London-trained plastic surgeon named Jamuna Pai who had what Runkle called a "disturbingly casual" view to skin-lightening treatments concocted with acids and lasers.

I will to get back to this plastic surgeon type statement being projected onto all Indians, which is similar to how similar statements by some Chinese plastic surgeon were projected onto all Chinese by the christowest to declare that Chinese culture/society don't appreciate the natural beauty of their own women. Indeed christowest has projected Chinese cinema's preferences and those of the trendy elite classes as being representative of native Chinese society's alleged biases in exactly the same way.

And christowest has specifically used Kingstonian type voices for this: i.e. people that look Asian and reading from christowestern scripts to denounce their own native culture as inherently flawed, racist, sexist and evil.

Mallika Rao and her hand-selected voices - to showcase the opinions she wants showcased as the only or even the majority opinion - prove to be just as malleable to social engineering as their Whiggie counterparts in Asian American society.

I am however curious why Americans picked an Indian to win their crown rather than an American or E Asian. Maybe Indian American women are next up for American social engineering against their men? But *Hindus* don't marry out though.

Quote:"'When an Indian man looks for a bride, he wants one who is tall, fair and slim, and fairer people always get jobs first,'" Runkle says Pai told her. While she quotes Pai admitting that the binary is "being disproved because of the success internationally of dark-skinned models," (see: supermodel Lakshmi Menon), the shift was apparently imperceptible at home. "'We still lighten their skin here because it gives the girls extra confidence when they go abroad,'" Pai reportedly told Runkle.

The statement of Pai - a plastic surgeon, for goodness' sake, of course he'd be trying to sell his wares by making women feel insecure - does not represent the view of the masses of Indians, but at most only represents the view of the select westernised elite - the fashionistas of Indian cinema and the catwalk - who hate to still be brown on the outside when they're already white on the inside anyway. At best they see it as an "ethnic" advantage to be fashionably "brown" overseas. And their claiming "brownness" comes in handy when it's time to project their racism and racist preferences onto other Indians who never even knew bollywho let alone modelling agencies exist in Bharatam (and don't care about these Loser things either).

And that is why this westernised/wannabe-western elite's opinions on looking down on native Indians - especially the native identity of ethnic Indians, i.e. Hindu religion - is identical to the opinion the christowest has of the same.

And then the syrian christist twit/gets to twit again:

Quote:Anna John ('Indian'-American christo girl): "...& the same is true for all those "Miss Indian American USA" pseudo-pageants held here as well. No darkies allowed in winner's circle."

(Said the girl who is probably Syrian christian - Syrians are not even dark, why is she talking about ethnic-Indians, as if their experience is her experience?)

Some tweeters insisted a discussion of skin color is no longer relevant. They cited Eastern hemisphere analogs to Davuluri: actress Priyanka Chopra and Lara Dutta, Indian pageant winners of the last decade with darker skin tones than most of their peers.

Priyanka Chopra looks typically Indian, with very typically Indian features.

Lara Dutta has European features because she *is* part European, which is why she was chosen. Just a couple of years ago, the christist rag MSN India was advertising that people like Lara Dutta were so beautiful *because* they're half-European - i.e. have European features. It was trying to brainwash the stupid angelsk-speaking readers to try to get with a western person and start making Eurasian offspring too. Actually, IIRC it literally suggested that.

And the christowest - e.g. TIME Magazine - even back in the mid or late 1990s but not later than early 2000 advertised for Eurasianism as the supposed preference of Asia (or rather, as the preference the christowest wanted Asians to have, in order to export the IR disparity into the Asian homeland) in a cover featuring part Polish-Irish and part Vietnamese Maggie Q, half-British half-Indian but very much likeable Asha Gill of Malaysia, and a third half-European half-eastern Asian female celebrity.

The TIME story/advert and others like it were considered infamous in the day among East Asians, who saw it for what it was: trying to sell the WM to the AF in the Asian homelands by advertising Eurasian designer babies as Da Next Thing. White supremacists were heard screeching "miscegenation", of course, and pretended absurdly that it was *Asians* who wanted to get with the west.

(This was well before India's christoislamic bollywho started its obsession with Eurasians on the screen.)

Quote:Pranav Hundekari: "@suitablegirl [Anna John], @utterflea Oh C'mon! Haha! PC, Lara Dutta, Diana Hayden were not particularly light-skinned."

Others point out these women don't fall at the dark end of the dark-skinned spectrum. Nor are they necessarily poster girls for the cause. Here's Chopra hamming it up in a commercial for Garnier Light, a cream advertised as a "no oil, no sweat fairness moisturizer."

Proving once more that it is the west - via cosmetic companies like Garnier et al - that is pushing the trend on what Indians are meant to consider attractive and aspire for.

I remember when Aishwarya Rai and Sushmita Sen won the Miss India and Miss Universe respectively - and there were a whole slew of wins for India thereafter - Eurasian Diya Mirza included: my cousin told me that this obviously-rigged pageant "winning streak" was only to offload beauty products onto Indian women and create a mass-market among Indian women for overseas make-up trash and hand-me-down fashion items, based on creating insecurity among Indian women into wanting to look like the pageant contestants/wanting to "dress western" and be "western", and turning them into brainless fashion-and-fame-chasers. [Note that China is getting the same treatment by international beauty pageants now - where in a recent year a beauty queen was elected - since China is another big market, but a much harder one to crack: not even chocolate could get a decent foothold there apparently. And the western wine and/or was it coffee industry is also shaking its head in desperation wondering Why Oh Why won't the Chinese fall for the usual PR that everyone fell for?] My cousin predicted that more Indians would win thereafter to bolster the trend and create the perception that such looks were 'within their reach' (since Rai and Sen were Indians): the world appreciated the "Indian" look was the pretence. (OK, yes it does sadly, but not for innocent reasons.)

She said that Indian models would start entering Indian cinema en-masse, at first via the Miss contests, and this would then be used to further promote not just fashion but also the "only fair" look even more in Indian cinema - which has now evolved into Eurasian and even European preference in bollywho - to sell more beauty products and fashion to the masses, because more of the masses would be exposed to Indian cinema than to the pageants or Indian modelling. My cousin said that "modelling" would be turned into a primary business in India and that more and more progressive girls would consider it an ideal career path and start pursuing it. The cousin later even predicted that eventually a south Indian would be allowed to win an international title, with the western beauty industry hoping to repeat the north Indian success among south Indians, who thus far remained mostly immune. And indeed Parvaty O-something-kutty from Kerala won. The market hasn't quite taken off in South India though, for obvious reasons.

A bit of insecurity *was* there - has been there since the colonial era certainly. But the post-colonial industrial christowest has capitalised on this, magnified it by orders of magnitude, and now it has been deliberately *turned* into a *huge* business - with major foreign companies raking in a lot of the money. So the west may pretend to denounce such "Indian racism" but they're the ones fueling it to fund their own pocket. Half-alien faces are dominating Indian screens, just as TIME and other ragazines wanted for E and SE Asia before. Yet, I hear repeated objections from Hindus who wonder why we keep getting more "gora-looking" people in Indian cinema. Well, 'cause bollywho is christoislamic and hence alien by definition. [As it is, it is mostly Indian christian women who will be running off with WM anyway.]

Hindus in India (and even many NRIs) don't marry out. Not in the western direction certainly.

The real irony is that it is bollywho cinema - which is christoislamic - which projects those Indian women as desirable who look or can be made to look more European. As seen in how bollywho - against the will or representation of the Indian masses - goes out of its way to choose part-European part-Indians and even whole-Europeans, like a fully South American - was it Columbian? - woman playing an Indian in one famous movie, which apparently stunned some Indian viewers upon discovery as these didn't know she wasn't Indian at all. (I don't know the Indian movie, a friend pointed the matter out to me, remarking how far the issue has gone.)

There are no Hindus - not in India leastways - with European ancestry. There are however entire generations of Anglo-Indians, Indo-Portuguese etc christians. Aka Eurasians. Indo-Europeans! :grin: At last, the phrase fits a known *reality*. It is this Indo-European look that bollywho wants to promote on screen, disregarding the Hindu masses' interest in having representation of their own -i.e. native - look in "native" cinema. To repeat the earlier examples: there's half-Scottish catholic Lara Dutta, half-German non-Hindu Diya "Mirza" Handrich, half-Polish catholic Lisa Ray, 3/4-Mediterranean catholic Dino Morea, completely ethnically-non-Indian catholic John Abraham, half-British non-Hindu Katrina Kaif. Etc. Etc.

Note, the Hindu population always sought representation on Indian screen and can't identify with clearly half-alien looking people playing Indians. The half-alien-looking are predictably whole-aliens qua religious identity, whereas Hinduism is an ethnic religion.

It is christoislamic bollywho - close on the heels of the Indian modeling industry - that tries to promote "fairness of skin" as an ideal by trying to pretend Eurasianism is something the masses aspire to, rathern than that Eurasianism is what India's christos [and christoconditioned] aspire to be and the subcontinent's islamics aspire to possess - in their harem. Recall how many E and S European women were kidnapped into Arabian and Iranian harems.

The Hindu cinema that pre-dated present bollywho - which was by and for the natives, representing them physically and culturally - merely used a lot of lighting, also used by hollywho at the time. But it used *natives* to tell native stories.

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