SV:
B4 this thread rockets off into the fine traditions of communal relations, would it be possible to at least list the major resources that should be gathered and made accessible (I mean websites/ threads).
1. Slokas and their sources. This is classy, no doubt, all of us would like to be able to recite the appropriate slokam for the situation ... which of course implies understanding what the slokam means.
Some of us are right now constrained by the shallowness of our education to remember only such gems as "Kabir ke dohe" (modified as per IIT traditions and hence not possible to repeat here), or Tulsi Ke Dohe (likewise).
Have not associated enough with KV graduates who actually remembered any slokas to know how they had modified those, sorry. Most of the KV grads I knew were usually flying, without benefit of wings or engines.
2. The fables. The Panchatrantra are the best-known source, translated to many languages, but what is their original source and where can one find the closest to the originals, plus translations?
3. Much of what is known as Grimm's Fairy Tales and Hans Anderson's Fairy Tales are closely related to stories that have been around in India for the usual 145,000,000,000,000,000 years. Where are those stories located originally?
4. <b>I[/I]f an "ABCD" youth asks me where s(he) can find the inside scoop on what Hinduism says, in particular, to treat depression arising from, say, being in the middle of a Hurricane-hit city, where should I guide him/her? (yes, question arises from urgent need). More to the point, question arises from "comparison of what Catholicism says vs. Hinduism says" and there are two authorities helping out with finding the "good books" on Catholicism</b>.
(Help!!)
5. Digging out the science, and separating it from the distortions and glorifications added to it by the ancient and modern versions of the ddm when describing stuff that they didn't quite grasp.
*******************************************************************************
Well I guess that if I launch off into any stuff about communal relationsthat will be the nd of getting the Hindu narrative - it will be about everyone else's narrative.
So let me put a hold on that and try an let narayanan's suggestions sink in.
The last paragraph about "comparative theology" is a great one. Again - I wonder if a thread can be started on "comparative theology" catholicism vs Hinduism, but the thread will be trash unless someone has done some serious reading. However - maybe that is something I can start doing right away - because you don't require REAL knowledge to be an expert - only working knowledge and a long tongue.
I do not for one minute recommend any serious theology. That is someone else's work.
I do recommend an attack on the aspect that need to be attacked. i.e the morality of evangelism. (and morality in general). Give me some time..
04-15-2007, 06:50 PM (This post was last modified: 04-15-2007, 07:19 PM by Husky.)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->3. Much of what is known as Grimm's Fairy Tales and Hans Anderson's Fairy Tales are closely related to stories that have been around in India for the usual <mocking1> years. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Ummm. Before someone comes to ridicule this, Hans-Christiaan Andersen wrote practically all his own stories (exceptions are very mild: Der Sieben Schwaene is his own version of Der Sieben Raben or was it vice-versa).
Many of the well-known fairy tales have been in Europe and Russia for ages, from times well before christianity. They are the oldest non-religious stories in the European continent.
Cinderella of course has variations around the world (including one of the oldest ones in China). That's the context where the 'smallest foot' bit ever made sense in.
In my own family, we have heard my grandmother, then mother and aunt narrate the Indian version of German Frau Holle/Russian Father Frost. Recalling this is when my sister realised that what western scholars say about fairy tales originating in India was true.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"comparative theology" catholicism vs Hinduism<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->There is no theology in Hinduism. The minute people start talking about some 'Hindu theology' or 'Hindu doctrines' or whatever, is the minute they stop talking about Hindu Dharma and start talking about christoislamic views on Hinduism.
When Hindus start using the same terms, they're already entering into the christian paradigm. Sigh. When one can't use ones own terms to discuss something (or, though even this is insufficient, <i>utterly redefine</i> another language's terms to do the same) but is forced to use another language/framework's terms, is when you're at a severe disadvantage. A disadvantage there's no recovering from.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I[/I]f an "ABCD" youth asks me where s(he) can find the inside scoop on what Hinduism says, in particular, to treat depression arising from, say, being in the middle of a Hurricane-hit city, where should I guide him/her?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->If an authentic situation, then guide them to the Gita.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->If an authentic situation, then guide them to the Gita.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be exactly the wrong thing to do, and yet so typical of the attitude that too many Hindus take towards practical application of our religion. Note that the Catholics, given the same question, did not tell him/her:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Go Read the Bible. Old Testament and New Testament. In Aramaic and Latin. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The policy advice to peasants attributed (probably as propaganda) to the late unlamented Her Majesty Queen Marie Antoinette is also technically accurate. One has to think to see why that was such a hit with the pitch-fork and guillotine operators.
<!--QuoteBegin-narayanan+Apr 15 2007, 05:59 PM-->QUOTE(narayanan @ Apr 15 2007, 05:59 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->1. Slokas and their sources. This is classy, no doubt, all of us would like to be able to recite the appropriate slokam for the situation ... which of course implies understanding what the slokam means. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since most of sanskrit literature (which is huge in itself) is in verse-form, instead of prose, this excercise is going to be of a huge scale. So multilevel classification will be required. The same mantra-shloka can be linked through many ways, e.g. original-text, devatA, rishi, message, use etc.
<b>I see a fullscale relational-database here, not just a collection or a webpage.</b>
Also, shlokas are what Valmiki introduced, a 4-part verse. For example Gita contains shlokas, where each verse is in two lines and each with two parts (total of 4 parts).
<i>
yadA yadA hi dharmasya
glAnirbhavati bhArata
abhyththAnamadharmasya
tadAtmAnaM sR^ijAmyaham</i>
In comparison, Vedic mantras (not called shlokas) had different arrangements of parts. The most popular metre Gayatri had 3-parts (tripadA), although other kinds of gAyatrI are also mentioned.
<i>tat-savitur-vareNyaM
bhargo-devasya dhImahi
dhiyo yo naH prachodayAt</i>
So, that quote from Br. Upanishad "asato mA sadgamaya..." is not really a shloka but a mantra.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->2. The fables. The Panchatrantra are the best-known source, translated to many languages, but what is their original source and where can one find the closest to the originals, plus translations?
3. Much of what is known as Grimm's Fairy Tales and Hans Anderson's Fairy Tales are closely related to stories that have been around in India for the usual 145,000,000,000,000,000 years. Where are those stories located originally? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ancient collections of stories include:
1. panchatantra (teaching politics through stories)
2. hitopadesha (similar to panchatantra)
3. kathA-sarit-sAgara (part of a lost much bigger collection bR^ihat-kathA)
4. jAtaka-kathA (stories of buddha's previous incarnations)
5. vetAla-panchavinshati (vikarm & vetAla for chandAmAmA fans)
6. siMhAsana-dvAtriMshikA (stories told by 32 statues on king vikramaditya's throne)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->4. <b>I[/I]f an "ABCD" youth asks me where s(he) can find the inside scoop on what Hinduism says, in particular, to treat depression arising from, say, being in the middle of a Hurricane-hit city, where should I guide him/her? (yes, question arises from urgent need). More to the point, question arises from "comparison of what Catholicism says vs. Hinduism says" and there are two authorities helping out with finding the "good books" on Catholicism</b>. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For someone with limited exposure and a pressing need, theological debates are useless.
It will be most desirable to have dedicated texts (such as addressing depression/loss etc) available for such situations. Otherwise it is best to read talks/question-answers etc from the great sages in such a situation. For a modern mind modern sages may make more sense, such as Q&A/discourse kind of texts from:
Vivekananda, Ramakrishna, Ramana-maharshi, Aurobindo, Yogananda, Sai baba, Ammachi etc.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->5. Digging out the science, and separating it from the distortions and glorifications added to it by the ancient and modern versions of the ddm when describing stuff that they didn't quite grasp. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is lot of scientific/mathematical-virtue in ancient texts. For example, the binary-system maths that pingala had used in his text on metres (chhandaH-sUtra), and the ingenious error-checking mechanisms used to preserve the sAmavedic texts and songs.
Claiming scientific nature unjustifiably and/or prematurely is definitely damaging from many quarters. It may lead to disappointment for an enthusiast who jumped in expecting great science, but eventually got disillusioned. It also may lead to ridicule from more sophisticated opponents who would find tiniest holes, and ridicule whole of the effort in front of influential but otherwise ignorant/innocent people. There can also be an extremist streak in scientific enthusiasts, who could use supposed scientific nature to criticise a large body of extant hindu traditions. A great care is needed in this department to not throw away the baby with the bathwater.
If someone claims scientific nature for some ancient text, put them to strictest scientific gruelling. Going by the fact that no major modern scientific discovery has been based on a "prediction" from an ancient text ( it is always a post justification), one must be very discrete in such cases. And a first and vocal critique must come from hindus themselves and not others.
In the same vein, it is important to puncture the hellenistic bias in western history of science. Based on rather flimsy threads, western historians can weave a glorious fabric regarding greek science. But Indian evidences are never given similar enthusiastic treatment, they are rather suppressed. Europe needed their narrative of past scientific glory in the 18th-19th century and it created such a narrative. Indians need to write their own narrative for history of science too.
04-15-2007, 08:53 PM (This post was last modified: 04-15-2007, 08:54 PM by Bodhi.)
Thank you Ashok Kumar Ji. Good to read from you again.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->1. panchatantra (teaching politics through stories)
2. hitopadesha (similar to panchatantra)
3. kathA-sarit-sAgara (part of a lost much bigger collection bR^ihat-kathA)
4. jAtaka-kathA (stories of buddha's previous incarnations)
5. vetAla-panchavinshati (vikarm & vetAla for chandAmAmA fans)
6. siMhAsana-dvAtriMshikA (stories told by 32 statues on king vikramaditya's throne)
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also Jain literature is very rich in stories - some in Prakrit, while some in Sanskrit. One particular collection of fables with focus on morals and values for youth is: kuvalayamAlA (series of unfortunate events).
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->If someone claims scientific nature for some ancient text, put them to strictest scientific gruelling. Going by the fact that no major modern scientific discovery has been based on a "prediction" from an ancient text ( it is always a post justification), one must be very discrete in such cases. And a first and vocal critique must come from hindus themselves and not others.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Absolutely. Those sentences should in fact form the signature on many discussions. This tradition of open (yet discreet) discussions where criticism is voiced, and debate encouraged, must be nurtured. Unfortunately today, it descends into questions regarding the motivations of the questioner (usually attributed to CIA, ISI, 'psec", Congress, yada yada yada). As a result, anyone who is not lobotomized, is rapidly kicked out of "Hindu" discourse. <!--emo&:flush--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Flush.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='Flush.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Today not only are Hindus in Hindustan under attack from the 4Ms (mullah, missionaries, marxist and media) lobby but also never in the last 60 years did Congress, so openly and unapologetically, blatantly gone ahead with minority appeasement policies (e.g. speech about Muslims having the 1st right to resources, Muslim count in army etc). Also, when Godhra happens, Loloo appoints Banerjee committee, which declared fire happened in train by accident (Thank God courts struck down appointment of this committee finding as illegal). Add to this the Evangelist threat (states like Tripura etc have become Christian states) and suddenly Hindus find themselves cornered and feel they are in a no win situation. Hindu religious places are attacked/bombed regularly but even any talk of Hindu retaliation is immediately seen by media as growing Hindu intolerance.
Over the centuries Hindustan has shrunk (we all already know countries like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc were parts of Hindustan once) & is still shrinking. Hindu influence at one time stretched as far as to countries like Thailand, Indonesia, Bali etc but has kept waning over the centuries. 80 million Hindus were massacred over the centuries and more then 300 million forcibly converted yet our history books still harp about talking of positive outcomes of Muslim Invasions. Many Hindus are not even aware of the atrocities committed by Portuguese on Hindus when they ruled Goa. Some of our scientific achievements were stolen and looted by Arabs from where they found their way to Europe etc, repackaged and passed off as Western achievements. India, with 35% share of Worldâs GDP & 25% of world share in World trade till 17th century was reduced to a poor nation by the time Brits left India. Apart from the economic loot, millions of deaths (Bengal famine etc), there was damage through âmental colonizationâ Brits did by distorting they way Hindus look at their past history (legacy carried on by Commies after Independence)which will take years to be undone.
1947 provided a golden opportunity for Hindus to ask all IMs to leave India(partition was on religious lines as some Indian Muslims had stated they could not peacefully co-exist with Hindus) yet 60 years after Independence we are back to square one with unofficially population of IMs in India now being 20 crores, some political parties tripping over each other to appease IMs for sake of votes and ISI in connivance with some local people continuing terrorist activities in India. Meanwhile Congress turning a blind eye(even encouraging) Bangladeshi Muslims to cross the border and settle in Assam and other parts of India.
What lead to such a state that Hindus find themselves cornered today from all sides? Hindus seem to have become the favorite âwhipping boyâ and are expected to keep taking punishment without even a slight whimper. How much are Hindus themselves to be blamed for the sorry state of affairs? What can be done to stop the rot and reverse it?
Most of Western countries see themselves as a âChristian blockâ while Muslims countries stretching from Middle East to Pakistan to Turkey talk about Islamic brotherhood. We Hindus cannot look to other Hindu nations (just had Nepal but even that is now under Marxist influence) so all we have just left is Hindustan which is still had Hindu majority. Madarassas are being funded by money from abroad, Evangelists with millions of grants from abroad are not only indulging in psy op by keep talking about caste system etc but Evangelists are also busy in harvesting of souls by conversion while Hindus are expected to just stand and watch like mute spectators. The idea of Uniform Civil code is vetoed by the âpseudo-secularâ lobby for being against the interests of Muslims though the Courts have clearly backed the idea of implementation of UCC.
But any talk of Hindu narrative has to be suppressed by âPseudo-secularâ lobby for the sake of âCommunal Harmonyâ. Add to this the relentless anti-Hindu foreign propaganda (aided by our own leftist media) is increasing the anger amongst Hindus.
If no one else is bothered about protecting the interests of Hindus, I suppose we Hindus will have to do it on our own. Time we Hindus also openly started talking about concepts like Pan Hinduism.
<!--QuoteBegin-Husky+Apr 15 2007, 06:50 PM-->QUOTE(Husky @ Apr 15 2007, 06:50 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"comparative theology" catholicism vs Hinduism<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->There is no theology in Hinduism. The minute people start talking about some 'Hindu theology' or 'Hindu doctrines' or whatever, is the minute they stop talking about Hindu Dharma and start talking about christoislamic views on Hinduism.
When Hindus start using the same terms, they're already entering into the christian paradigm. Sigh. When one can't use ones own terms to discuss something (or, though even this is insufficient, <i>utterly redefine</i> another language's terms to do the same) but is forced to use another language/framework's terms, is when you're at a severe disadvantage. A disadvantage there's no recovering from.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see no problem in using the word "Hindu theology vs whatever theology" as long as you are on the offensive ("you farted") right from the beginning and are in slash and burn mode - tearing down all that you are against.
The "vs" bit is only a title and has nothing to do with content. Pointedly it is NOT debate and I personally will not waste any time in worrying about the semantics of theology. If some better word comes up - fine - but till then I will interest myself only in the content of what needs to be said rather than the rightness or not of the title.
The point I am getting at is that it is wrong to allow the other to get on the offensive by making you explain yourself and explain what "dharma" is so he can play dumb or ridicule as he likes. You go on the offensive right off by saying why what he stands for is all balls. For that you need to know his theology more than you need to worry about whether Hinduism has theology or not. To an extent - worrying about the title when the job in hand is to take something down by wherever means, fair or foul is a mistake. Like Arjuna worrying on the battle field.
I had spoken about "conflicting narratives" for a reason.
There are two goals here
a) Bringing forward the positive Hindu narrative that has been suppressed
b) Equally exposing the negative Christian and Islamic narrative that has been suppressed.
This has nothing to do with opposing nice people.I love all nice people who are my brothers and sisters no matter what their religious, sexual or dietary persuasion might be.
This has everything to do with the fact that
a) The "visible" Hindu narrative is all negative and is available to people to beat Hindus with if there is a whiff of a Hinduism mentioned. That visibly negative narrative is always contarsted with the "egalitarianism" of Islam - and the "love" of Christianity.
b) For Hindus in India the the Hindu narrative automatically exposes the manner in which both Christianity and Islam have been pushed into India.
These represent the conflicting narratives.
Islam came in with murder, looting and wanton destruction
Christianity has used more subtle methods of coercion and blackmail - except in Goa where it has been Islamlike murder, looting and destruction
Why is it difficult for Muslims and Christians to face that if Hindus can face their own history?
May I point out with respect that there is no point in talking of "dharma' if Hindus feel embarrassed to speak facts. On the other hand, if a Hindu does feel embarrassed in speaking these facts - then he should not be treated with contempt. Contempt only attempts to show that "I" (who do not feel embarrassed) am superior to "you" (who is feeling embarrassed to speak the truth and may be a dhimmi). Contempt at dhimmi Hindu is laughable - like a slave ridiculing at another. We are in the same boat and should not be against each other. The dhimmi has to be converted. And he can be converted only if you show confidence and affectionate conviction. Not uncertainty and contempt. It is easy to suppress contempt, but uncertainty can be removed only with knowledge of your own narrative.
Equally important is not to attempt to show anger or triumphalism at Muslims or Christians because that often puts off Hindus who are a sensitive people - who look for visible justice. You may score a "victory" over Islamic or Christian narrative -but if you laugh or mock - you are offending the sensitive Hindu who believes that such behavior is not mandated by proper Hindus. A vulgar display of anything - be it anger or triumphalism will often push Hindus to take the other's side because Hindus are brought up to see everything as a balance of good and bad, darkness and light, sorrow and happiness. If you create sorrow for the Christian and create joy for yourself, you will not win allies among Hindus as you will be seen as doing an injustice NOW, You will not be seen as righting a historic wrong. Until you have worked on the Hindu so that he understands that it is not your intention to "wrong" a Christian or a Muslim, but only to set right a historic misconception about the badness of Hindus and the goodness of other faiths. This is a game that needs more finesse than I have seen displayed by many well meaning and concerned Hindus.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Apr 15 2007, 08:53 PM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ Apr 15 2007, 08:53 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Also Jain literature is very rich in stories - some in Prakrit, while some in Sanskrit. One particular collection of fables with focus on morals and values for youth is: kuvalayamAlA (series of unfortunate events).
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you!
That title kuvalayamAlA (A series of unfortunate events) is very interesting! Despite there being more jainas at present in India than buddhists, apparently it is easy to find jataka-katha stories (in childrens's books section including amar-chitra-katha) than say kuvalayamala stories. It appears that buddhistic studies were taken up with much more gusto by the europeans and their followers in India than Jaina studies. The result is a paucity of info in the popular domain on Jaina tradition. There are of course many scholarly texts available.
I have seen copies of kuvalayamAlA in the library but haven't borrowed it yet. Jaina literature is so vast, and not yet fully tapped, that I have been postponing getting into that corpus. My understanding is that there are many texts that possibly have mathematical/scientific value. Also most of the information about early Brahmi script comes from Jaina sources. Remembered a quote: "Namo bambhIye livaye" (In sanskrit: "namo brAhmyae lipyae", or salutations to the brahmi-script)
<!--QuoteBegin-Ashok Kumar+Apr 15 2007, 12:31 PM-->QUOTE(Ashok Kumar @ Apr 15 2007, 12:31 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->The result is a paucity of info in the popular domain on Jaina tradition. There are of course many scholarly texts available.
My understanding is that there are many texts that possibly have mathematical/scientific value. Also most of the information about early Brahmi script comes from Jaina sources. Remembered a quote: "Namo bambhIye livaye" (In sanskrit: "namo brAhmyae lipyae", or salutations to the brahmi-script)
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Asok Kumar Ji, It seems like my own exact thouths put in words so nicely by you. The day, when Jain literature will be studied in full, will be the day when several of lost links of our history will come to light. I am no scholar, and yet when I read any of the Jaina text, I get this feeling.
Of all pauranik literature of Bharat - Jainas have best preserved the most accurate historic and cultural treasure of Bharat - less poetically, more scientifically. Especially on Ayurveda and Mathematics, we shall have a wealth of information from Jaina literature. Need faithful, honest, indigenous scholarly research.
I remember and love this salutation from Jaina Shastras the most: 'Om Namo VItarAgAy'
<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Apr 15 2007, 10:23 PM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ Apr 15 2007, 10:23 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->The day, when Jain literature will be studied in full, will be the day when several of lost links of our history will come to light. I am no scholar, and yet when I read any of the Jaina text, I get this feeling.Â
Of all pauranik literature of Bharat - Jainas have best preserved the most accurate historic and cultural treasure of Bharat - less poetically, more scientifically. Especially on Ayurveda and Mathematics, we shall have a wealth of information from Jaina literature. Need faithful, honest, indigenous scholarly research.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This question is both to Bodhi and Shiv (sengotuvel):
Does/should the hindu narrative include Jaina, Bauddha and Sikh narrative or not?
I don't want to disturb the flow of the thread, but posting here nevertheless in consonance with what was requested earlier [wrt. new member introductions].
Next few weeks I'll be reading up on what's been posted here, to get attuned, and figure out where I can contribute/participate.
If there are important things, that new members should be aware of apart from the forum guidelines, please do let me know.
<!--QuoteBegin-narayanan+Apr 15 2007, 09:10 PM-->QUOTE(narayanan @ Apr 15 2007, 09:10 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> This tradition of open (yet discreet) discussions where criticism is voiced, and debate encouraged, must be nurtured. Unfortunately today, it descends into questions regarding the motivations of the questioner (usually attributed to CIA, ISI, 'psec", Congress, yada yada yada). As a result, anyone who is not lobotomized, is rapidly kicked out of "Hindu" discourse. <!--emo&:flush--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Flush.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='Flush.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-sengotuvel+Apr 15 2007, 09:51 PM-->QUOTE(sengotuvel @ Apr 15 2007, 09:51 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->On the other hand, if a Hindu does feel embarrassed in speaking these facts - then he should not be treated with contempt. Contempt only attempts to show that "I" (who do not feel embarrassed) am superior to "you" (who is feeling embarrassed to speak the truth and may be a dhimmi). Contempt at dhimmi Hindu is laughable - like a slave ridiculing at another. We are in the same boat and should not be against each other. The dhimmi has to be converted. And he can be converted only if you show confidence and affectionate conviction. Not uncertainty and contempt. It is easy to suppress contempt, but uncertainty can be removed only with knowledge of your own narrative.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Both these quotes are important.
Hinduism is too big and diverse to mould into a single sharp entity. Many sects have tried that in the past and have remained sects. Hindus who have extremist views about a certain approach will end up being alienated from a large part of hinduism. It may seem desirable and even feasible from such a viewpoint to "convert" all of hinduism to that sharp viewpoint, in practice it will pit hindu aganist hindu and likely end up in rancour and division.
Is it possible to convert anyone to a certain viewpoint by showing contempt towards that person?
Even evanjihadis would "show" lot of "love" for the person being converted. Even though they simultaneously heap contempt on his existing religion/culture. But the trick is always to calibrate the contempt for the religion/culture so that person himself never feels that he is the direct target of contempt.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ashok Kumar+Apr 15 2007, 10:56 PM-->QUOTE(Ashok Kumar @ Apr 15 2007, 10:56 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Apr 15 2007, 10:23 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bodhi @ Apr 15 2007, 10:23 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->The day, when Jain literature will be studied in full, will be the day when several of lost links of our history will come to light. I am no scholar, and yet when I read any of the Jaina text, I get this feeling.Â
Of all pauranik literature of Bharat - Jainas have best preserved the most accurate historic and cultural treasure of Bharat - less poetically, more scientifically. Especially on Ayurveda and Mathematics, we shall have a wealth of information from Jaina literature. Need faithful, honest, indigenous scholarly research.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This question is both to Bodhi and Shiv (sengotuvel):
Does/should the hindu narrative include Jaina, Bauddha and Sikh narrative or not?
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IMO it must.
In fact "Hindu narrative" must also include what has been done to it by Chrsitianity and Islam. The Hindu narrative naturally includes even the relationship between Judaism and Zoroastrianism and Hindus.
A narrative is a narrative. A story that tells ones view accurately without pulling any punches. There is no room for allowing YOUR story to be told and spread by a group who are obviously antagonistic to you. That has happened and our narrative must be reclaimed.
Every single Hindu has a narrative, or a story to tell (an autobiography of sorts) about himself and his beliefs. That is his narrative. The collective narratives of ALL Hindus is the Hindu narrative. The greater the number of Hindus who pitch in with their narrative the more form it gets and the more the consensus that can be reached about what binds rather than the story about what divided that has been spread about Hindus by others writing our narrative.
People like Vivekananda sensed the collective narrative by travelling and meeting people all over. Funnily enough, even Naipaul sensed it.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->If there are important things, that new members should be aware of apart from the forum guidelines, please do let me know. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just pick up a few threads and make them your own. I joined after UPA came to power and needed some reassurances. Never waited for a committee welcome. We're all well wishers of Bharat here.
04-16-2007, 12:20 AM (This post was last modified: 04-16-2007, 12:22 AM by Bodhi.)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->This question is both to Bodhi and Shiv (sengotuvel):
Does/should the hindu narrative include Jaina, Bauddha and Sikh narrative or not?
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my opinion, such a narrative shall not be complete without including these traditions. When an ordinary, non-scholarly, plain, simple, even uneducated but practicing Hindu thinks of his/her tradition, he is completey at home with Jaina, Bauddha, Sikh or several other unnamed indigenous traditions of Bharat.
The narrative should (also) serve as the synthesis of these, with due respect to the mutual differences, of different countless streams that flow within the broad Bramhaputra-like Bharat Dharma. Narrative has (also) to be a bridge across all. This narative must include ALL the traditions that have roots in Bharat.
In fact, if I may suggest, instead of calling it "Hindu" narrative, might we call it "Bharatiya" or "Dharmik" narrative? "Hindu" although accurate, often leads to readymade misunderstanding as an "-ism" or "religion" these days, thanks to the artificial definitions that have been now well-internalized. We may have to utilize a better-understood term.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->On the other hand, if a Hindu does feel embarrassed in speaking these facts - then he should not be treated with contempt. Contempt only attempts to show that "I" (who do not feel embarrassed) am superior to "you" (who is feeling embarrassed to speak the truth and may be a dhimmi). Contempt at dhimmi Hindu is laughable - like a slave ridiculing at another. We are in the same boat and should not be against each other. The dhimmi has to be converted. And he can be converted only if you show confidence and affectionate conviction. Not uncertainty and contempt. It is easy to suppress contempt, but uncertainty can be removed only with knowledge of your own narrative.
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This is very important. There is no place for contempt to dhimmi pseudo-Hindu. However if I may submit, narrative we are talking about, can not be altered/filtered/conditioned to appease the dhimmi Hindus or to make it "acceptable" for anyone else. It has got to be a natural phenomenon, an innocent understanding, not a concious creaion. Let it be uncomfortable to some, if it is
Also very important is to really have a forward looking appraoch of converting the dhimmi pseudo-Dharmik to Dharma. "Dharmik Narrative" will be a crucial tool. Please do consider that usually these dhimmi pseudo-Hindus show more 'confidence' (or belligerence) than the plain dharmik-Hindu.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Funnily enough, even Naipaul sensed it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shivji, why do you say 'funnily'?
<!--QuoteBegin-Ashok Kumar+Apr 15 2007, 05:26 PM-->QUOTE(Ashok Kumar @ Apr 15 2007, 05:26 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Apr 15 2007, 10:23 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bodhi @ Apr 15 2007, 10:23 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->The day, when Jain literature will be studied in full, will be the day when several of lost links of our history will come to light. I am no scholar, and yet when I read any of the Jaina text, I get this feeling.Â
Of all pauranik literature of Bharat - Jainas have best preserved the most accurate historic and cultural treasure of Bharat - less poetically, more scientifically. Especially on Ayurveda and Mathematics, we shall have a wealth of information from Jaina literature. Need faithful, honest, indigenous scholarly research.
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This question is both to Bodhi and Shiv (sengotuvel):
Does/should the hindu narrative include Jaina, Bauddha and Sikh narrative or not?
[right][snapback]67104[/snapback][/right]
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While I accept that such an inclusion will provide a more complete picture, I would ensure that those religions don't feel that they are being assimilated and absorbed into the Hindu narrative.
It should be a mosaic where the parts retain their distinct identity but add to the total picture and not a melting pot where they lose their identity.
Speaking of "parallel narratives" here is a bunch of our old friends spreading sweetness and light:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Note:
With the launch of the report, CSFH announces its six-month "Truth Out on HSCs" information campaign aimed at informing every desi American student of the two-faced methods of the HSC and the Sangh Parivar.
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 5:02:29 PM
  Subject: YSS-FOSA Conference press release
  <b>Campus Hindu Organization Conclusively Linked to the Sangh Parivar in North America and India
  "Desi-American Students Deceived by the Hindu Student Council" says New Report
</b>
  For More Info: hsctruthout@gmail.com
  New York , Friday, April 13, 2007: The Campaign to Stop Funding Hate (CSFH) will release a new report, Lying Religiously: The Hindu Students Council and the Politics of Deception, on Sunday, April 15, 2007. The report brings together evidence from multiple sources to demonstrate a web of connections between the Hindu Students Council (HSC) and the violent, hindu ultra-right Sangh Parivar, and exposes the deliberate efforts of the HSC leadership to conceal its links with the Sangh Parivar in order to deceive Hindu-American college students. The report provides the first comprehensive documentation of the origins, methods and practices of the HSC.
  Similar to "The Foreign Exchange of Hate," the 2003 report documenting the flow of money from the United States into the coffers of the Sangh Parivar in India, almost all of the documentation used to construct the current report comes from the archives of the HSC itself and from the publications of the Sangh Parivar in North America and elsewhere. Starting with the origin of the HSC in 1991, when Ajay Shah, the first president of the HSC, proudly declared that the HSC was part of the VHP of America, the report documents the rise of early HSC leaders into the ranks of Sangh Parivar leadership in North America, the detailed family connections between a significant section of the HSC leadership and the Sangh Parivar, and the central role played by the HSC in the creation and maintenance of the Sangh Parivar's internet infrastructure, including the web infrastructure of the Sangh Parivar's parent organization, the RSS.
  "Most of the young desi Americans who join the HSC have no clue as to the connections between the HSC and the militant and violent Hindu right wing in India" says Samip Mallick, one of the campaign coordinators for CSFH. "We fully support the creation and existence of Hindu student organizations on college campuses, but we are unable to condone the Hindu Student Council's continued misleading of college students regarding its ties to the Sangh Parivar," he continued. With the launch of the report, CSFH announces its six-month "Truth Out on HSCs" information campaign aimed at informing every desi American student of the two-faced methods of the HSC and the Sangh Parivar.
  The report will be released on Sunday, April 15 at 3:30 PM at a press conference hosted by the Youth Solidarity Summer at 451 West Street (@ Bank), New York, NY 10014. For more information on the press conference write to: hsctruthout@gmail.com or call 917 232 8437. Summary and full versions of the report will be available at the press conference. The report will also be available on this website after 3 PM on Sunday April 15. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
