Abhishek,
It seems you can't recall 84 riots all over India, where in New Delhi, Capital of India, 4000 people were burnt alive in 3 days. Rest of India number was over 7000 and country PM was Sonia's Husband welcomed such revenge.
Don't be selective when it suits you. Read country history first. Don't ignore muslim community which always starts riots in India. Now other so called minorities are competing in same venture in different form.
All riots related post will be moved to Gujarat riots thread.
If BJP had won 2004, it would have been hailed as the victory for non-sectarianism, as BJP didn't even once ask for 'hindu' votes during the 2004 campaign.
But somehow BJP's loss in 2004 is claimed as a loss for the 'hindus'.
Simply stated: if BJP had won, 'hindus' would have supposedly lost. And BJP's loss is anyway a loss for the hindus. A nice case of having ones cake and eating it too. Or as they say 'heads you lose, tails I win'.
I think the fault of Mr Modi was that being the Chief Minister of Gujrat he was not able to get handle over the situation and stop the riots. I can give the benefit of doubt to Mr Modi that he did not incite the riots. But as he is responsible for all the law and order situation so he is directly implicated, remember there is something called Rajdharma(as we are talking about hindu cause so we should remeber hindu values also). You cannot kill you own citizen whom you are supposed to protect. It is grossly and completely wrong
Regarding the Dorky indian media the less said the better. I know that unusual media attention has been given and the signal has been amplified way too much and mind you this will get back to those bastards, becuase finally truth does come out. As now these people are hiding there face all over after the growth story of gujrat is coming out. The amount of amplification and vilification of modi as hitler and all those things has to be fought and we will discredit these secularist for all there ulterior motives. Indeed after the visagate incident these NGO types have been totally discredited now you dont see any media report about gujrat
But the fact remains that revenge is not the basis for any society. It brings a continuous cycle of hatred and further revenge. I know that you people will not accept it. You have your views, i have my own
The way we are discussing number over here that 700 died and not 2000 or something sounds very hollow. I will become a bleeding heart or something over here but the fact is that no civilized society thrives on revenge, or number crunching of number of people killed in a revenge.
The delimma of muslim agression is always there and it has to be handled politically. Those people have to be handled by law(sounds hollow, and i know that it is not all easy with the money and resources available, but still street level rioting cannot be encouraged). When we talk of rioting and revenge as a deterrance, it is effective for a small time, becuase it leads the adversary to an even bigger conflict situation which will explode sometime later(more terrorist attacks, radicalisation of muslims and hindus, bigger conflict situations leading to more unrest, we dont want this in an india which is trying to develop at 8% annually). The longer term deterrance of effective policing, policy restriction and the fear of a legal and social system leads to better deterrence(and i would prefer that method of instilling fear in muslim extremists and hanging them by there balls). I dont know whether forum members will agree but the whole concept of legal system is based on fear of the legal system which is based on deterrance and as far as study of jurisprudence shows that it is the best form developed as of yet, otherwise we should goto the tribal concept of instant revenge(which starts a hate cycle and hence lesser economic development) rather than detailed investigation and then pinning down the actual culprits.
I would really like to know what forum members have to say about the basic concept of criminal laws and jurisprudence in this regard. All studies have shown that a detailed investigation by investigating authorities and then catching of culprits leads to lesser conflicts and more consensus reaching and peaceful resolution of problems, leading to better economic development and living standards.
I know I am talking totally against the forum views and maynot be able to impress much. Just giving my views. Would like to get response if you deem it fit. I would prefer to get laws enacted and better funding to police adminstration and good training to effectively get those muslim exremists and get them implicated which will have a ripple effect in muslim society and create a better and long lasting deterrance system against there jihadi instincts with no ill will towards the whole society. Muslims are here to stay, they are not going anywhere whatever we may think or wish.
You are making no sense. From your own post you have jumped straight from "benefit of doubt" to "rajdharma" and then straight to "You cannot kill you own citizen whom you are supposed to protect". A big jump dont you think ? I suggest you make up your mind whether you are implicating Modi of negligence or deliberate criminal behaviour.
The rest of your post sounds very sweet but doesnt mean anything. When folks in ahmedabad saw bodies of women and children charred beyond recognition they didnt start evaluating how to solve law and order problem and long term and short term vagera vagera.. They just went nuts. And these people werent some hard core terrorists who went wild - it was your aam-aadmi, middle class people, women. There was no message involved either. It was just pure and simple rage. And the magnitude would have swept ANY administration - it just so happened that Modi was the CM and in my opinion did a darn good job of getting a hold of the situation.
Well Abhishek, there is only problem - for effective "law enforcement", the said citizenry of all hues, colors, and religions MUST believe in law. Ain't gonna work even if tiny segment of the population - regardless of religion - flout it day in day out. This chamberlain-isque cries about "law enforcement", "Peace at any cost" will not stop modern day Lenins and Hitlers, as miuch as it did not prior to the run up to WWII. Now, pray tell me, how do you impress the other side, that they are Indians first and Obey the Law next. Theological discussions, and gratuitous linkages to religion for common day problems is not the solution.
I live in real life and in real life revenge works, just look at East Punjab today, it is now almost devoid of Muslims because of what Hindus and Sikhs did during partition as a retaliation for Muslim atrocities, now Punjab is the most prosperous state with not much of a Muslim problem, on the other hand look at West Bengal, West Bengali Hindus listened to Gandhi and in a few decades they will be ethnically cleansed out of Bengal by Muslims. Even better look at Spain, they reconquered their whole country and made it devoid of Muslims thru inquisition, so Spain was free of Muslims until the 20th cent (when they foolishly allowed Muslims to immigrate), the so called law and order never protected Hindus and will never protect Hindus in the future either, even then revenge involves a lot of bloodshed so personally I prefer an economic boycott mixed in with Hindu counter breeding and shuddhi, that is the only solution to Muslim problem, u cannot have sizeable Muslim minority and have peace, sooner or later they will try and make the country Dar-ul-Islam and law and order can never solve this problem (what law are u going to make preventing muslims from becoming majority and how r u going to implement it), so Hindus may use the other methods I proposed.
Well I know that forum members will not accept what i am saying. I accept that my approach will not find favor, but again it is the only long term solution that is available for us. I will suggest one thing. Can someone suggest an alternative solution to this problem(whatever you feel lets consider a genocide also) or are we just going to whine about muslims starting riots, citing cases of muslim extremism. Give me solutions.
See I will again define the problem as i see. The problem is that there is a group of people who see things entirely different from us. There priorities are different and there perspective is different.
Now in this problem. What is the solution. The basic point i am trying to make is that revenge(as we call it riots) is a method of deterrance. It creates fear in the adversary that if he does it again he will get it back. Now what method of deterrance is best, can law and order as a deterrance work???, i believe that with enough resources and political will it can work.
Lets start finding the best possible deterrance system and talk about it. If riots are the best possible deterrance then lets agree on riots as the policy that we want to follow.
Regarding my confusion, well truly i am in a confused state of mind, becuase something is being justified in the name of my religion and i want to understand what it means. I want to understand how is riot(killing of innocent people, mind you in this revenge we are talking of innocent people, again maybe i will become a bleeding heart)related to be pro-hindu???. A bitter question indeed very bitter but has to be answered.
Ok this will be my last post that will stray from the topic of Gujarat riots:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"Can someone suggest an alternative solution to this problem(whatever you feel lets consider a genocide also) or are we just going to whine about muslims starting riots, citing cases of muslim extremism. Give me solutions."<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I already did, first make Hindus aware, then do some counter breeding mixed in with economic boycott and shuddhi, that is the only realistic solution, law and order can never prevent Muslims from becoming majority and once they become majority Hindus will get ethnic cleansed and forcibly converted. So reconvert Muslims and do counter breeding along with an economic boycott.
Abhishek first read some history and then read the Quran before u say nonsense like Islam is not the problem, then come back and post on topics such as this and good luck with ur so called research on sufism.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I thought we were discussing gujrat riots. Anyways I can be banned. Please go ahead and do that. It will be an easier option.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The easier option is the one you've already taken â something akin to searching for a lost wallet on a lit street because thereâs no light on the street where you lost it.
You want to discuss Gujarat riots, fine. Mind you it's Gujarat - not Gujrat which I believe is the way Pakis spell and I hope you arenât one (else Iâm wasting my time).
So what do you know about Gujarat riots? Yes there was one in Feb 2002 which erupted in Godhara after about 58+ train passengers were burnt alive and a mob prevented any attempts to rescue them. Your bhasans about Modi are fine and dandy, but what about the communal riots in that very same Godhara in 1947, 52, 59, 61, 65, 67, 72, 74, 80, 83, 89 and 90? Was Modi around then too? What about the riots in '69 where more than 1000+ were killed when Hitendra Desai of Cong was the CM? Who's going to pick up the tab over 200 incidents communal flare up in 80s when there was a power struggle amongst Congress ruled CMs like Solanki, Amarsingh etc? Mind you I'm not picking on any particular community here since all listed names so far are Hindu. Just trying to figure out if one particular CM is any better or less than the other in Gujarat.
Frankly, I agree with you that we shouldn't be splitting hair over 700+ dead or 2000+ dead because even death of one Indian is a death too many. However, donât you think itâs a bit disingenuous of you to deliberately turn a blind eye towards couple thousands of dead in over hundred plus riots in this very same state of Gujarat and with a straight face talk about dead in one riot when Modi ruled the state?
If you want to discuss, please bring fresh prespective to table and have a open mind to discuss all issues in totality. Not the only ones that fit your argument which gets repeated ad nauseum like a stuck record-needle. There's a dime a dozen secular hoot and scoot artists that have stopped by this forum over years with their holier-than-thou advise, hopefully you'll have stay around bring some persuasive arguments to the table as to why one should view one death in Gujarat any different than the other.
Abhishek, you have no idea of the mood of the people. Modi did act on time. By far the fastest response from the army ever. If he had not, you would have seen much much worse.
As for the law and order situation, I agree there is much desired in all of India. Specially Bihar. But according to some high clout think tank sponsored by the Congress that takes after the name of a certain deceased ex Congressi PM - the best law and order situation exists in .........<b>Gujarat!</b> <!--emo&:o--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohmy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ohmy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Go figure <!--emo&:unsure:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='unsure.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Thanks to forum members for giving me a chance to respond. I hope I will not divert the topic.
As regards Islam. I know all the problems from concepts of dar-ul-islam, dar-ul-harb, kafir, seperatism, everything. I have been doing lot of reading. Though I dont know much about quran, but enough to understand the venom and terrorist tendencies it can create in certain people(mind you not all people, but as a community it has a problem), OBL is there because of islam, let me assure you I am no islam sympathiser. But ya i donot believe that muslims should be killed, kicked out or sent to pakistan. There is a problem and most importantly lets identify the problem and then shoot(it is more difficult but definitely more fruitful). Secondly I have certain ideas like individual liberty, secularism, democracy, freedom, equal rights and economic prosperity. These are the ideas which are under attack from some of these islamists. And I want to preserve these ideas and fight for these ideas. So all me responses against islamists will be based on these ideals. If I start supporting riots then i am going against all my cherished ideals indeed i become a reverse or mirror islamist. (maybe i again become an idealist, but then it is better that i stop thinking about these issues and play cricket and have fun nothing is going to change for me like a normal hindu)
Now regarding all the riots that independent india has seen. It boils my blood to the hilt and at times i think what the heck just do it. When i read about Direct Action Day or about the brutality of partition it creates a lot of anger. It does create a lot of resentment. But i firmly believe that an effective deterrance system with a clear cut targetted approach like madarssas, hate creating places should be targetted and not an innocent person, he may have a family(just like the godhra victims), he had nothing to do with what happened in godhra. Riot is a crude method of deterrance, a more sophisticated deterrance method can be created, we are good enough for that, definitely we are good enough
About the response in gujrat. Well atleast lets accept what happened in gujrat was wrong, and most importantly it was the rajdharma of Modi to protect the citizens. Lets accept if, if he tried, then good enough, he should then try to prosecute the perpetrators and the people who killed those innocent people. It is the duty of every individual to save another person, atleast an innocent person.
I hope i donot cross any lines over here. Just putting my thought. I also have a deep resentment from partition to kashmir to godhra, no doubt about that, but the question is what is my response. Will I stick to what i believe in or just become a mirror image of my adversary. Further I have a firm belief in my ideas and i know that they are strong and will win over every situation, i have strong belief in my method of thinking.
Bhagwan Krishna asked for just 5 villages from kaurav to avoid war, to avoid suffering and to avoid numerous soldiers getting killed. He was no coward. He tried his utter best to avoid war. Whet to the kauravs as shantidoot. My ideals come from this. A lord himself went all the way to bring love and peace. I will do all that i can. And then again as krishna if i am denied my rights. Then I will fight. Then I will fight, fight for my dharma and then it will become a dharmayudh. I guess I have become too idealist. But anyways this is a forum for ideas.
This forum needs more life, and without contrasting viewpoints that is not possible.
Abhishek, I am not a moderator, but I think you don't have to write each post with some sentences worrying about being banned or censored. I believe you won't be banned or censored for merely having another view on this forum. That worry is unnecessary and is demeaning to the forum.
Regarding your ideas/ideals, I agree with them to a degree. Law & order and protecting citizens is prime responsibility of a government, and any government which doesn't do so, is culpable.
The proverbial cake keeps reappearing too. If some members talk about 'solving' muslim problem through riots, then why should they complain if others and media portray hindutva supporters as fascists?
The constitution has some flaws regarding minority protection. It went in overdrive 'assuming' majority was a danger to the minorities, and that majority didn't need any protection itself. It is clear Indian constitution gives the majority a raw deal based on some imaginary fears regarding its treatment of minorities. So, lets try to change the constituion through democratic means!
Islamism inside India can be tackled as a law & order problem and must be solved using constitutional measures and individual efforts. Constitution may need to be amended to get the proper legal backing, but that is only feasible if a party of coalition gets 2/3 majority. BJP is hamstrung by the NDA, as even if it gets a majority it would not be able to do anything deemed controversial.
Judiciary' recent judgements about IMDT act and advice to the minority commission to act towards successive shortening of the minorities list, instead of continuously adding to it, suggest another hopeful avenue. Where politician have shown no backbone, judiciary has stepped in. Election commision's new directive about politician being disqualified from contesting if police couldn't deliver warrant's to their addresses for 6 months, shows another instance where politicians couldn't clean up their mess, but a constitutional body showed some creativity.
We need to be very very supportive of the constitution and the constitutional authorities. Politicians and babudom have too many priviledges for them to seriously try to change the system. If we harm the basics of the constituition a lot of harm will be done to India in general. Just look at Pakistan as a case in point. In 1947 feudalism was no less prevalent in India than in Pakistan. But Pakistan today is still stuck deep in the feudal morass, while India has tried to rescue itself in many areas. Still, CMs like Lalu think they are present kings with all the powers and no responsibility, but they are not the absolute norm. The constituitional requirements of periodic elections, EC and judiciary keep such aspiring feudals in check.
Islamism outside India is a problem for diplomacy, Indian military and secret services. Let Indian response be as nasty as needed, as India is not responsible for citizens of other countries. But inside India the Indian law must hold primacy.
abhishek_d,
Have you ever lived in a place where Muslim population is over 15%? Your hollow philosophy tells you have no experience. Your thoughts are good on paper or on dreams. Country where law, Justice System and politicians extra are not mature enough, people use all options to protect themselves. Hindus have been lectured lot and butchered lot in history.
Have your families involved in Godhra what you will do? Sit and do bhajan or carry red banner or go to Mosque for Namaz?
When 2000 Muslims in daylight burn 58 innocent women and children in a city, police etc were unable to stop them, what do you think when whole state is out on road and where there family member were victims. Plus opposition comes out and blame victims.
What will happen when 2000 Hindus go out and burn train full of people returning from Haj?
Public will tolerate nonsense when law and judiciary will take action. In a country where politician give damn to majority population and worry about Muslim appeasement gets what they deserve.
I believe in protecting every citizen without any discrimination. But in India, every Indian Muslim gets up in morning and start lecturing how Hindu should behave and Modi and Gujarat. Somebody ask them why they go into deep sleep when there brother go on rampage and butchering innocent whenever they had personal problem or returning from Friday prayer.
While I agree that Hindus belive in priciples like secularism, equal treatment, opportunity to everybody etc... but when thing really comes like in your face.... you can't control even a sane person like you abhishek will be hard press to respond...
Now do you think the gujjus who rioted were all communal people not believing in secularism (why there is no problem with jains/sikhs) in gujarat.
I'll give you a example.. now I think people of Calcutta (Bangalis) are the most 'Secular' (in term of tolerating mullas) but there was article recently in telegraph they refused to rent thier house to mullas.
every thing is fine till you have not witness riots or have not lived in area near to muslims ghettos....I have.... I think what happend is Gujarat is nothing , compared to what is been happing in bombay (nagpada/chor bazar) every now and then til 1992.
what do you think congress believe in secularim in real sense, even they will not stay in muslim areas or rent space to mulllas...
Well I can very understand your point that we should not stoop thier level but l'll ask to just 1 questions... what if the dath toll in gujarat was 750 hindus/250 muslims and VHP has burnt alive 50 mullas coming back from haj.
What would have ben your reaction.......what was the reation of britons after 1st ever attack on thier way of live ... (sikhs,hindus are also targeted in racial attackes and they started saggrigating people and wait till you hear immigration reforms by Uk govts.)
Mostly agree with your post but methinks Islamism is more then just a law and order problem. Its an ideology that will either consume India or be destroyed by it.
Abhishek_D
Given the circumstances, Modi did alright. There is no need for rajdharma bhashans.
I dont know your familiarity with riots but most of the times its tough to prosecute and punish rioters. There were 2000 pigs who gheraoed Sabarmati Express. Is it possible to arrest and punish those 2000 pigs ? So what can the govt machinery do ? Catch a few pigs here and there (lets say 10) - what kind of cases will be filed against them ? Arson, vandalism, murder lets say. Murder for 58 women and children ? Or 10 ? What about the rest of 48 ? And what about the rest of 1990 pigs ? What kind of deterrence is this ? This tells your average pig "hey i can roast anybody i want and 1990/2000 times i go free".
And once again keep one thing in mind - the reaction to Godhra was pure and simple rage. People didnt go nuts because they didnt want a repeat of Godhra. They went nuts because they couldnt see women and children burnt alive. If someone wants to learn from it, good for them.
