Sunder:
See above re: refusal to be called "member". My key to peaceful existence is to do what cats do when drinking milk. Close ur eyes to extraneous stuff unless forced to take note and bare claws, canines etc. or to run.
With all religions and sub-classes thereof, one has to carefully hunt for the good and ignore the other cra* as long as it is not really hurting other people.
My view is the the ISKCON does not actively conduct anti-Hindu or anti-Indian propaganda or proselytization, and they generally mind their business. Not much danger, IMHO, regardless of their "acceptance" of other religions, of Abdul Musharraf or Pat Robertson going around singing and dancing to "Hare Krishna, Hare Rama", so I don't worry about whatever they say about those religions. My take on their policy there is that they operate in the depths of non-Hindu-majority places, and of course they have to project themselves as accepting of all faiths. Fundamentally, I see nothing there that conflicts with the basic "all paths lead to ME" belief.
ISKCON, by its mode of evolution and its history of survival, bridges western (and eastern, non-Hindu) society to Indian Hinduism. It does so not at the university academic level, but at the level of street people. This is where I think its largely a waste of time to analyze the statements they make in their propaganda books.
I have spent some time observing the people who sit through their "discourses". Many are really down-and-out in their own societies, and come there, really looking for solace. They have their own childhood religious upbringing, and they hear the news and talk to others, and they are good citizens of their own countries. What would you have ISKCON do? Tell them to
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> "Accept ****** as the Only ****** or Burn in The Fires of He**! <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
or
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Hey, dear child, the Almighty welcomes you, whatever your basic beliefs and upbringing, u r part of Creation. Ur *** is fine, same as ours. Sit and pray with us, and u may feel better and get some strength <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I vote for the latter. These people have no lack of powerful entities hammering them with the former, and they are running away in disillusionment and fear from that sort of cra*, trying to find someone who will accept them for what they are, with all their faults and failures, and not browbeat them, while still giving them a chance to reflect and have some hope of improving.
The cuisine doesn't hurt either. For many of those I see there, that's not just a tasty meal, its the ONLY meal they've had in a while. At the same time, the ISKCON does enforce some common-sense discipline about not showing up intoxicated, and having to behave - and to be treated with respect, with no patronizing stuff. EXCELLENT strategy, very conspicuously absent from most "Places of Worship" which rate devotion and human worth on the $$ scale.
You sit there and consider the prospect of getting through to those good people with deep nuances of the differences between Yindooism and other religions, and you quickly see why the ISKCON's approach is a heck of a lot more pragmatic.
Supercilious attitude towards the rest of Hinduism? Well.... I haven't asked them about that, but my guess is that dedicated (some may say "indoctrinated") "members" of any sect will launch into fierce defenses of their own superiority. It comes with the mindset that makes one a dedicated member, willing to devote full-time to the welfare and propagation of the sect. My deep-down guess is that if u go ask someone in the Chinmaya Ashram what they REALLY think of, say, Sai Baba, Mata Amritanandamai or Sri^2 Ravishankar, you will hear something that can again be described as "supercilious attitude". No need to go that far - my buddies who were in the Chemical Engg. branch in the IIT had that attitude about other branches. Its mostly insecurity and ignorance (as we tried to explain to them, to get a rise out of them). Same as asking a Microsoft employee about Linux, or a Boeing employee about EADS.
I know dam* well that if I discuss deep philosophy with (or spend more than 2 minutes listening to) almost any of the "experts" at ANY religious institution - I will lose my temper and make some nasty crack. So I just eat and shut up and think of the good they do.
By the same token, I don't discuss ISKCON with my local Yindoo friends who go to the fine, huge $$$-based temple south of town. I would think "supercilious" would be too weak a term to describe THEIR attitude. Same for other sects. Recently, I heard a member of one such (very rich) sect declare in a meeting with the City Mayor present, that "civilization is about to arrive in ******" (their temple was slated to open in a few months). One just sits back, allows such hot air to wash over, and enjoy the samosas.
I think one thing our Yindoo friends need to learn is actual, understanding tolerance. Not "Ich bin sehr Tolerant uber alles!" as a philosophy. We have too little resources to fight the REAL bigots, to waste it on the relatively harmless types such as ISKCON, who share most of the same problems, and many of the beliefs, that the rest of us do.
So my advice there is "accept what you sensibly can, disagree when needed, ignore otherwise unless its really harmful". Enjoy the food and the rhythm, help them do good, and don't get too far taken in. Spend ur energies attacking some REAL oiseules such as the RISA or the South Asia baboons.
Actually the best discourse on Yindooism I've ever heard is one I heard by accident - the only reason I was hanging around there (futilely as it turned out) was in the forlorn hope that someone else might be around there - <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='rolleyes.gif' /><!--endemo--> but the discourse was by Swami Ranganathananda of the Ramakrishna Ashram (who passed away a couple of weeks back). Set me straight on a LOT of things about belief, ritual, why different forms of worship are needed to make sense to different people, etc. etc. Took about 15 to 30 minutes max, and I had completely forgotten why I was there in the first place.
Awesome. And when he was done (it was the most lucid, simple presentation I've heard) the local Holy BigShot of the Ashram (or maybe he was from the Chinmaya Ashram - can't remember) came on to "Explain" to the assemblage what the Swamiji had just said. And proceeded to proclaim the absolute opposite of everything he had said. The difference in mental quality between the two was like the difference between Gandhiji and Laloo.
So much for organized religion and its Holy Netas. <!--emo&:flush--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Flush.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='Flush.gif' /><!--endemo-->
See above re: refusal to be called "member". My key to peaceful existence is to do what cats do when drinking milk. Close ur eyes to extraneous stuff unless forced to take note and bare claws, canines etc. or to run.
With all religions and sub-classes thereof, one has to carefully hunt for the good and ignore the other cra* as long as it is not really hurting other people.
My view is the the ISKCON does not actively conduct anti-Hindu or anti-Indian propaganda or proselytization, and they generally mind their business. Not much danger, IMHO, regardless of their "acceptance" of other religions, of Abdul Musharraf or Pat Robertson going around singing and dancing to "Hare Krishna, Hare Rama", so I don't worry about whatever they say about those religions. My take on their policy there is that they operate in the depths of non-Hindu-majority places, and of course they have to project themselves as accepting of all faiths. Fundamentally, I see nothing there that conflicts with the basic "all paths lead to ME" belief.
ISKCON, by its mode of evolution and its history of survival, bridges western (and eastern, non-Hindu) society to Indian Hinduism. It does so not at the university academic level, but at the level of street people. This is where I think its largely a waste of time to analyze the statements they make in their propaganda books.
I have spent some time observing the people who sit through their "discourses". Many are really down-and-out in their own societies, and come there, really looking for solace. They have their own childhood religious upbringing, and they hear the news and talk to others, and they are good citizens of their own countries. What would you have ISKCON do? Tell them to
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> "Accept ****** as the Only ****** or Burn in The Fires of He**! <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
or
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Hey, dear child, the Almighty welcomes you, whatever your basic beliefs and upbringing, u r part of Creation. Ur *** is fine, same as ours. Sit and pray with us, and u may feel better and get some strength <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I vote for the latter. These people have no lack of powerful entities hammering them with the former, and they are running away in disillusionment and fear from that sort of cra*, trying to find someone who will accept them for what they are, with all their faults and failures, and not browbeat them, while still giving them a chance to reflect and have some hope of improving.
The cuisine doesn't hurt either. For many of those I see there, that's not just a tasty meal, its the ONLY meal they've had in a while. At the same time, the ISKCON does enforce some common-sense discipline about not showing up intoxicated, and having to behave - and to be treated with respect, with no patronizing stuff. EXCELLENT strategy, very conspicuously absent from most "Places of Worship" which rate devotion and human worth on the $$ scale.
You sit there and consider the prospect of getting through to those good people with deep nuances of the differences between Yindooism and other religions, and you quickly see why the ISKCON's approach is a heck of a lot more pragmatic.
Supercilious attitude towards the rest of Hinduism? Well.... I haven't asked them about that, but my guess is that dedicated (some may say "indoctrinated") "members" of any sect will launch into fierce defenses of their own superiority. It comes with the mindset that makes one a dedicated member, willing to devote full-time to the welfare and propagation of the sect. My deep-down guess is that if u go ask someone in the Chinmaya Ashram what they REALLY think of, say, Sai Baba, Mata Amritanandamai or Sri^2 Ravishankar, you will hear something that can again be described as "supercilious attitude". No need to go that far - my buddies who were in the Chemical Engg. branch in the IIT had that attitude about other branches. Its mostly insecurity and ignorance (as we tried to explain to them, to get a rise out of them). Same as asking a Microsoft employee about Linux, or a Boeing employee about EADS.
I know dam* well that if I discuss deep philosophy with (or spend more than 2 minutes listening to) almost any of the "experts" at ANY religious institution - I will lose my temper and make some nasty crack. So I just eat and shut up and think of the good they do.
By the same token, I don't discuss ISKCON with my local Yindoo friends who go to the fine, huge $$$-based temple south of town. I would think "supercilious" would be too weak a term to describe THEIR attitude. Same for other sects. Recently, I heard a member of one such (very rich) sect declare in a meeting with the City Mayor present, that "civilization is about to arrive in ******" (their temple was slated to open in a few months). One just sits back, allows such hot air to wash over, and enjoy the samosas.
I think one thing our Yindoo friends need to learn is actual, understanding tolerance. Not "Ich bin sehr Tolerant uber alles!" as a philosophy. We have too little resources to fight the REAL bigots, to waste it on the relatively harmless types such as ISKCON, who share most of the same problems, and many of the beliefs, that the rest of us do.
So my advice there is "accept what you sensibly can, disagree when needed, ignore otherwise unless its really harmful". Enjoy the food and the rhythm, help them do good, and don't get too far taken in. Spend ur energies attacking some REAL oiseules such as the RISA or the South Asia baboons.
Actually the best discourse on Yindooism I've ever heard is one I heard by accident - the only reason I was hanging around there (futilely as it turned out) was in the forlorn hope that someone else might be around there - <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='rolleyes.gif' /><!--endemo--> but the discourse was by Swami Ranganathananda of the Ramakrishna Ashram (who passed away a couple of weeks back). Set me straight on a LOT of things about belief, ritual, why different forms of worship are needed to make sense to different people, etc. etc. Took about 15 to 30 minutes max, and I had completely forgotten why I was there in the first place. Awesome. And when he was done (it was the most lucid, simple presentation I've heard) the local Holy BigShot of the Ashram (or maybe he was from the Chinmaya Ashram - can't remember) came on to "Explain" to the assemblage what the Swamiji had just said. And proceeded to proclaim the absolute opposite of everything he had said. The difference in mental quality between the two was like the difference between Gandhiji and Laloo.
So much for organized religion and its Holy Netas. <!--emo&:flush--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Flush.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='Flush.gif' /><!--endemo-->