11-13-2005, 10:40 PM
(This post was last modified: 11-13-2005, 11:09 PM by Bharatvarsh.)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->But if a Pakistani liar goes around claiming himself to be a Rajput, Jat, Brahmana, Chamar or any other well known Hindu Jati then clearly I have to expose them.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree with this.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Besides how can you verify whether the Pakistanis are lying or telling the truth.
Vast majority of Pakistanis are of Arab, Turk or Persian ancestory. Just look at their faces and see the features!<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol that is exactly what Pakistanis say and you seem to believe their nonsense, 90% of them have Hindu ancestory which they try to cover up, even during Guru Nanank's time I think West Punjab was Hindu majority (as witnessed by the fact that there were only 2 Muslims near his village of Talwindi) so how do they suddenly get arab ancestry as u imply, people don't just become Arab becuase they claim they are Arab.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->They are not Indian at all. They have some Indian blood mixed in them, but that does not make them Indian.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most of them have Hindu ancestors and were forcibly converted by Muslim rulers, a tiny minority of them are of foreign origin, the rest are all of Hindu origin (as witnessed by the fact that foreign origin Muslims despise many of the native muslims even in Pakistan).
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Pakistanis are proud of their Arab culture and ancestory. They consider themselves racially superior to Hindus. So let them take pride in it.
Why should I care what a foreigner believes in?
Why should I impose Hinduism on a foreigner?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are confusing issues, first off when did I say we need to impose Hinduism on foreigners, I said if a person of foreign ancestry wishes to become a Hindu then he/she can do so (as David Frawley and Yvette Rosser did) but you go around saying that a person of mixed or foreign ancestry can't become Hindu when infact the Vedas say "Krinvanto Vishvam Aryam - Make This World Noble.", they didn't ask us to measure the nasal index and DNA of a person to see if he is of foreign origin if he wanted to follow Sanatana Dharma.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem I have with Islam is that they stole our land and are illegally occuping it. If they pack their bags and go to Arabia, I don't have any problems with them at all.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Typical RSS thinking, everything is reduced to a territorial problem (national vs anti national), by this logic we should have no problem if Nazis just wanted to establish themselves in Germany since Nazism originated there, Islam is an ideology and according to it all earth belongs to Muslims so Muslims will never simply leave for arabia, assuming that they leave what guarantee is there that they won't launch future incursions again into Bharat since Islam teaches them to do jihad against kaffirs (so as long as an ideology called Islam exists there will always be problems with Muslims for Hindus), so the permanent solution for Islam in Bharat atleast is to bring back all Muslims into Hindu society as the Arya Samaj tried to do, even Shivaji reconverted Netaji Palkar. Sita Ram Goel, Ram Swarup and countless other Hindu thinkers did not spend their entire lives saying that Muslims should leave for Arabia, they wanted Muslims to be brought back into Hinduism and Hindu society. The following passage by Elst is relevant to this topic so here it is:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->This futile attempt to identify the Islam problem in terms of "Indian" vs. "foreign" implies a second similarity with certain undesirable xenophobic trends in the West. Semi-literate xenophobic ideologues in Europe identify Islam as "a foreign religion, fit for Asiatics but not for Europe". In their opinion, there is nothing wrong with Islam, <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>as long as it remains in its country of origin. </span> This is not too different from the applause given in Hindutva publications to Anwar Shaykh's thesis that "Islam is the Arab national movement". In his book Islam, the Arab National Movement, the Pakistan-born apostate author from Cardiff (with a death-warrant fatwa on his head since 1994) accurately documents how islamization has meant external arabization (names, clothes, script) for most converted populations, but wrongly infers that Islam is a form of Arab nationalism or Arab imperialism.
     For the Sangh, this thesis was doubly welcome: it recast the Islam problem in the familiar, safely secular-sounding terms of nationalism, and it legitimized Islam ("See we're not against Islam?") all while limiting its legitimate geographical domain so as to exclude India from it. The implication is that Hinduism is Indian nationalism, and Islam is Arab nationalism. This is grossly unjust to the Arabs and the native Arab culture which Islam destroyed. There is nothing Arab about Islam, a doctrine confabulated by Mohammed from half-digested bits and pieces of Jewish and Christian lore, combined with his own extraordinary self-image and the hallucinations registered on his sensory nerves (the Quranic voice he "heard"). Except for a small minority of people attracted to Mohammed out of gullibility or lust for booty and power, the Arabs were only forced under the yoke of Islam after valiantly resisting it. For the sake of comparison, Communism was not the "Chinese national movement" just because Chairman Mao's Communists militarily wrested the country from the legitimate Nationalist Government of Chiang Kai-shek. The genuine Arab national movement was the so-called Ridda ("return" to god-pluralism) uprising against the Islamic state after Mohammed's death, in which the Arabs tried to restore their pluralistic culture.[7]
     The review of Anwar Shaykh's work in Organiser was titled "Muslim proud of his Aryan heritage". This was, first of all, an untruthful statement. It is true that Anwar Shaykh has rediscovered the "Aryan" (i.e. Vedic) heritage which his great-grandfather had abandoned by converting to Islam.[8] But the consequence of this rediscovery was precisely the opposite of what the Organiser title suggests: he quit Islam, becoming a <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>"non-Muslim proud of his Aryan heritage".</span> Secondly, this title sent the wrong message to Indian Muslims. The message which Organiser sought to convey was that Indian Muslims should follow Anwar Shaykh's example: remain Muslim all while rediscovering their Aryan heritage (or with an older term, "indianizing" themselves). This was a replay of the Gandhian myth of the "nationalist Muslim" for whom Islam and Indianness are not incompatible.[9] But the case of Anwar Shaykh proved just the opposite: by rediscovering his Hindu heritage, a Muslim loses his Muslim identity. Islamic fanatics are wholly aware of this phenomenon, which is why they try to nip it in the bud, e.g. by forbidding Hindu religious music on Pakistani radio. The message of the Organiser should have been: "Indian Muslims, follow Anwar Shaykh's example, rediscover your Vedic heritage, and abandon Islam."
A similar case is that of BJP office-bearer Sikander Bakht. Mr. Bakht is a thorough gentleman, but his main value for the BJP is that he is a born Muslim. He is often shown off as the party's token Muslim, but just as often, angry Muslims write letters to the editor to explain that Mr. Bakht is not a Muslim at all. They say that he actually converted to Hinduism on the occasion of his marriage to a Hindu lady, and that his children were raised as Hindus. Now, when I am to choose between the BJP version and the Muslim version, I tend to attribute more credibility to the latter. If it is true that Mr. Bakht is a convert, I certainly applaud the BJP policy of giving due prominence to him. Only, they should have the sincerity and the wisdom to add the correct message, which is not: "We have Muslims as well", but: "We welcome Indian Muslims seeking the way out of Islam back into their ancestral culture."
http://koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com/book.../section14.html<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The following applies to Pakistani Muslims as well "Pakistani Muslims, follow Anwar Shaykh's example, rediscover your Vedic heritage, and abandon Islam."
Agree with this.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Besides how can you verify whether the Pakistanis are lying or telling the truth.
Vast majority of Pakistanis are of Arab, Turk or Persian ancestory. Just look at their faces and see the features!<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol that is exactly what Pakistanis say and you seem to believe their nonsense, 90% of them have Hindu ancestory which they try to cover up, even during Guru Nanank's time I think West Punjab was Hindu majority (as witnessed by the fact that there were only 2 Muslims near his village of Talwindi) so how do they suddenly get arab ancestry as u imply, people don't just become Arab becuase they claim they are Arab.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->They are not Indian at all. They have some Indian blood mixed in them, but that does not make them Indian.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most of them have Hindu ancestors and were forcibly converted by Muslim rulers, a tiny minority of them are of foreign origin, the rest are all of Hindu origin (as witnessed by the fact that foreign origin Muslims despise many of the native muslims even in Pakistan).
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Pakistanis are proud of their Arab culture and ancestory. They consider themselves racially superior to Hindus. So let them take pride in it.
Why should I care what a foreigner believes in?
Why should I impose Hinduism on a foreigner?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are confusing issues, first off when did I say we need to impose Hinduism on foreigners, I said if a person of foreign ancestry wishes to become a Hindu then he/she can do so (as David Frawley and Yvette Rosser did) but you go around saying that a person of mixed or foreign ancestry can't become Hindu when infact the Vedas say "Krinvanto Vishvam Aryam - Make This World Noble.", they didn't ask us to measure the nasal index and DNA of a person to see if he is of foreign origin if he wanted to follow Sanatana Dharma.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem I have with Islam is that they stole our land and are illegally occuping it. If they pack their bags and go to Arabia, I don't have any problems with them at all.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Typical RSS thinking, everything is reduced to a territorial problem (national vs anti national), by this logic we should have no problem if Nazis just wanted to establish themselves in Germany since Nazism originated there, Islam is an ideology and according to it all earth belongs to Muslims so Muslims will never simply leave for arabia, assuming that they leave what guarantee is there that they won't launch future incursions again into Bharat since Islam teaches them to do jihad against kaffirs (so as long as an ideology called Islam exists there will always be problems with Muslims for Hindus), so the permanent solution for Islam in Bharat atleast is to bring back all Muslims into Hindu society as the Arya Samaj tried to do, even Shivaji reconverted Netaji Palkar. Sita Ram Goel, Ram Swarup and countless other Hindu thinkers did not spend their entire lives saying that Muslims should leave for Arabia, they wanted Muslims to be brought back into Hinduism and Hindu society. The following passage by Elst is relevant to this topic so here it is:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->This futile attempt to identify the Islam problem in terms of "Indian" vs. "foreign" implies a second similarity with certain undesirable xenophobic trends in the West. Semi-literate xenophobic ideologues in Europe identify Islam as "a foreign religion, fit for Asiatics but not for Europe". In their opinion, there is nothing wrong with Islam, <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>as long as it remains in its country of origin. </span> This is not too different from the applause given in Hindutva publications to Anwar Shaykh's thesis that "Islam is the Arab national movement". In his book Islam, the Arab National Movement, the Pakistan-born apostate author from Cardiff (with a death-warrant fatwa on his head since 1994) accurately documents how islamization has meant external arabization (names, clothes, script) for most converted populations, but wrongly infers that Islam is a form of Arab nationalism or Arab imperialism.
     For the Sangh, this thesis was doubly welcome: it recast the Islam problem in the familiar, safely secular-sounding terms of nationalism, and it legitimized Islam ("See we're not against Islam?") all while limiting its legitimate geographical domain so as to exclude India from it. The implication is that Hinduism is Indian nationalism, and Islam is Arab nationalism. This is grossly unjust to the Arabs and the native Arab culture which Islam destroyed. There is nothing Arab about Islam, a doctrine confabulated by Mohammed from half-digested bits and pieces of Jewish and Christian lore, combined with his own extraordinary self-image and the hallucinations registered on his sensory nerves (the Quranic voice he "heard"). Except for a small minority of people attracted to Mohammed out of gullibility or lust for booty and power, the Arabs were only forced under the yoke of Islam after valiantly resisting it. For the sake of comparison, Communism was not the "Chinese national movement" just because Chairman Mao's Communists militarily wrested the country from the legitimate Nationalist Government of Chiang Kai-shek. The genuine Arab national movement was the so-called Ridda ("return" to god-pluralism) uprising against the Islamic state after Mohammed's death, in which the Arabs tried to restore their pluralistic culture.[7]
     The review of Anwar Shaykh's work in Organiser was titled "Muslim proud of his Aryan heritage". This was, first of all, an untruthful statement. It is true that Anwar Shaykh has rediscovered the "Aryan" (i.e. Vedic) heritage which his great-grandfather had abandoned by converting to Islam.[8] But the consequence of this rediscovery was precisely the opposite of what the Organiser title suggests: he quit Islam, becoming a <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>"non-Muslim proud of his Aryan heritage".</span> Secondly, this title sent the wrong message to Indian Muslims. The message which Organiser sought to convey was that Indian Muslims should follow Anwar Shaykh's example: remain Muslim all while rediscovering their Aryan heritage (or with an older term, "indianizing" themselves). This was a replay of the Gandhian myth of the "nationalist Muslim" for whom Islam and Indianness are not incompatible.[9] But the case of Anwar Shaykh proved just the opposite: by rediscovering his Hindu heritage, a Muslim loses his Muslim identity. Islamic fanatics are wholly aware of this phenomenon, which is why they try to nip it in the bud, e.g. by forbidding Hindu religious music on Pakistani radio. The message of the Organiser should have been: "Indian Muslims, follow Anwar Shaykh's example, rediscover your Vedic heritage, and abandon Islam."
A similar case is that of BJP office-bearer Sikander Bakht. Mr. Bakht is a thorough gentleman, but his main value for the BJP is that he is a born Muslim. He is often shown off as the party's token Muslim, but just as often, angry Muslims write letters to the editor to explain that Mr. Bakht is not a Muslim at all. They say that he actually converted to Hinduism on the occasion of his marriage to a Hindu lady, and that his children were raised as Hindus. Now, when I am to choose between the BJP version and the Muslim version, I tend to attribute more credibility to the latter. If it is true that Mr. Bakht is a convert, I certainly applaud the BJP policy of giving due prominence to him. Only, they should have the sincerity and the wisdom to add the correct message, which is not: "We have Muslims as well", but: "We welcome Indian Muslims seeking the way out of Islam back into their ancestral culture."
http://koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com/book.../section14.html<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The following applies to Pakistani Muslims as well "Pakistani Muslims, follow Anwar Shaykh's example, rediscover your Vedic heritage, and abandon Islam."