12-16-2005, 11:51 PM
Shaurya,
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> My question though still remains. How does it matter in the complex world of today. How do we determine who we are by nature and by profession.? Is the Varna system applicable today? How? The world today is way too complex for a simplistic pre-industrial age Varna system classification.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Although your question is aimed to Sunder I will give an answer. Varna as traditionally interpreted does not have any relevance in today's world. Such a position will make a portion of the teaching of the Gita also irrelevant and thus undesirable. Gita is after all a universal text applicable for all of mankind and for all time. We need to search for a different interpretation in order to keep the entire teaching of Gita relevant. Is there any other interpretation of varna in our smritis? The answer is yes. The different interpretation is there in Mahabharata itself. I give below an alternative interpretation given in the Mahabharata itself:
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The serpent said," O Yudhisthira, say - Who is a Brahmana and what should be
known? .."
Yudhisthira said," O foremost of serpents, he, it is asserted by the wise, in
whom are seen truth, charity, forgiveness, good conduct, benevolence,
observance of the rites of his order, and mercy is a Brahmana. And, O serpent,
that which should be known is even the supreme Brahma, in which is neither
happiness nor misery ---- and attaining which beings are not affected with
misery; what is thy opinion?"
The serpent said," O Yudhisthira, truth, charity, forgiveness, benevolence,
benighnity, kindness and the Veda which worketh the benefit of the four orders
, which is the authority in matters of religion and which is true, are seen
even in the Sudra. As regards the object to be known and which thou allegest
is without both happiness and misery, I do not see any such that is devoid of
these."
Yudhisthira said," Those characteristics that are present in a Sudra do not
exist in a Brahmana; nor do those that are in a Brahmana exist in a Sudra.
AND A SUDRA IS NOT A SUDRA BY BIRTH ALONE - NOR A BRAHMANA IS
BRAHMANA BY BIRTH ALONE. He, it is said by the wise, in whom are seen
those virtues is a Brahmana. And people term him a Sudra in whom qualities
do not exist, even though he be a Brahmana by birth. And again, as for thy
assertion that the object be known (as asserted by me) doth not exist, because
nothing exists that is devoid of both (happiness and misery), such indeed is the
opinion, O serpent, that nothing exists that is without (them) both. But as in cold, heat
doth not exist, nor in heat, cold, so there can not exist an object in which both
(happiness and misery) can not exist?"
The serpent said, "O king, if thou recognize him as a Brahmana by
characteristics, then, O long-lived one, the distinction of caste becometh
futile as long as conduct doth not come into play."
Yudhisthira said, " In human society, O mighty and highly intelligent serpent,
it is difficult to ascertain one's caste, because of promiscuous intercourse
among the four orders. This is my opinion. Men belonging to all orders
(promiscuously) begat offspring upon women of all the orders. And of men,
speech, sexual intercourse, birth and death are common. And to this the Rishis
have borne testimony by using as the beginning of a sacrifice such expressions
as -- of what caste server may be, we celebrate the sacrifice. Therefore,
those that are wise have asserted that CHARACTER IS THE CHIEF ESSENTIAL
REQUISITE. .... WHATSOEVER NOW CONFORMS TO THE RULES OF PURE
AND VIRTOUS CONDUCT, HIM HAVE I, ERE NOW, DESIGNATED AS A
BRAHMANA." (Aranya Parva CLXXIX)
**************************************************************************************************
So you see that even during the time of Mahabharata, someone thought that varna
by birth into a jati is irrelevant. I will post a different interpretation of varna by Swami
Tapasyananda next.
Gangajal
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> My question though still remains. How does it matter in the complex world of today. How do we determine who we are by nature and by profession.? Is the Varna system applicable today? How? The world today is way too complex for a simplistic pre-industrial age Varna system classification.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Although your question is aimed to Sunder I will give an answer. Varna as traditionally interpreted does not have any relevance in today's world. Such a position will make a portion of the teaching of the Gita also irrelevant and thus undesirable. Gita is after all a universal text applicable for all of mankind and for all time. We need to search for a different interpretation in order to keep the entire teaching of Gita relevant. Is there any other interpretation of varna in our smritis? The answer is yes. The different interpretation is there in Mahabharata itself. I give below an alternative interpretation given in the Mahabharata itself:
*****************************************************************************************************
The serpent said," O Yudhisthira, say - Who is a Brahmana and what should be
known? .."
Yudhisthira said," O foremost of serpents, he, it is asserted by the wise, in
whom are seen truth, charity, forgiveness, good conduct, benevolence,
observance of the rites of his order, and mercy is a Brahmana. And, O serpent,
that which should be known is even the supreme Brahma, in which is neither
happiness nor misery ---- and attaining which beings are not affected with
misery; what is thy opinion?"
The serpent said," O Yudhisthira, truth, charity, forgiveness, benevolence,
benighnity, kindness and the Veda which worketh the benefit of the four orders
, which is the authority in matters of religion and which is true, are seen
even in the Sudra. As regards the object to be known and which thou allegest
is without both happiness and misery, I do not see any such that is devoid of
these."
Yudhisthira said," Those characteristics that are present in a Sudra do not
exist in a Brahmana; nor do those that are in a Brahmana exist in a Sudra.
AND A SUDRA IS NOT A SUDRA BY BIRTH ALONE - NOR A BRAHMANA IS
BRAHMANA BY BIRTH ALONE. He, it is said by the wise, in whom are seen
those virtues is a Brahmana. And people term him a Sudra in whom qualities
do not exist, even though he be a Brahmana by birth. And again, as for thy
assertion that the object be known (as asserted by me) doth not exist, because
nothing exists that is devoid of both (happiness and misery), such indeed is the
opinion, O serpent, that nothing exists that is without (them) both. But as in cold, heat
doth not exist, nor in heat, cold, so there can not exist an object in which both
(happiness and misery) can not exist?"
The serpent said, "O king, if thou recognize him as a Brahmana by
characteristics, then, O long-lived one, the distinction of caste becometh
futile as long as conduct doth not come into play."
Yudhisthira said, " In human society, O mighty and highly intelligent serpent,
it is difficult to ascertain one's caste, because of promiscuous intercourse
among the four orders. This is my opinion. Men belonging to all orders
(promiscuously) begat offspring upon women of all the orders. And of men,
speech, sexual intercourse, birth and death are common. And to this the Rishis
have borne testimony by using as the beginning of a sacrifice such expressions
as -- of what caste server may be, we celebrate the sacrifice. Therefore,
those that are wise have asserted that CHARACTER IS THE CHIEF ESSENTIAL
REQUISITE. .... WHATSOEVER NOW CONFORMS TO THE RULES OF PURE
AND VIRTOUS CONDUCT, HIM HAVE I, ERE NOW, DESIGNATED AS A
BRAHMANA." (Aranya Parva CLXXIX)
**************************************************************************************************
So you see that even during the time of Mahabharata, someone thought that varna
by birth into a jati is irrelevant. I will post a different interpretation of varna by Swami
Tapasyananda next.
Gangajal