12-17-2005, 12:29 AM
[quote=Ashok Kumar,Dec 16 2005, 11:00 PM]
[QUOTE]I think Arjuna's worries and Vidura's treatment by society are not at the same level as Sri Krishna's sayings. Even then Arjuna's worries about kula-strIs can be understood through the worries about varNa samkaratA.[/QUOTE]
Yes, no one reads the Gita to read Arjuna's opinions. Gita is read to read Krishna's teachings.
[QUOTE]Regarding Chapter 9 shlokas 32, I read 'pApayoniH' not as an adjective as you have done but as a noun. In fact a anvaya+tranlation that I have has interpreted the word as a noun. In the next shloka Sri Krishna also talks about brahmanas and kshatryiyas. The overall import of shlokas 32,33 is that strIs, vaishyas, shudras, brahmanas, kshatriyas, and even the pApayoniH (people born in sin) are saved if they focus their attention towards God.
Shloka 33 doesn't say that it is any easier for brahmanas and kshatriyas to be saved than others. It says that it is easier for brahmanas who are 'puNyas' that is pious and kshtriyas who are like sages (rAjarShi), to be saved, not just any brahmanas and any kshatriyas. Duryodhana was a kshatriya, but wasn't really a rAjarShi![/QUOTE]
The word Papayoni in Gita 9.32 can not be taken literally as born in sin. After all Gita 9.32 says:
O son of Pritha! Taking refuge in Me, women, Vaishyas, Sudras, and likewise
even papayoni (men born in sin) , attain to the highest spiritual goal. (Gita 9.32)
How can anyone put half of mankind, women, in the same status as papayoni if papayoni is taken literally to mean "men born in sin"? This just doesn't make any sense. The context suggests that
the word papayoni means, "socially handicapped". So what Gita is saying here is that even people who are socially handicapped will attain the highest goal. This is Krishna's answer to Arjuna's statement early in the Gita about women being corrupted and varnashankar occuring. Krishna knew that Arjuna looked down upon women as socially inferior.
This interpretation also jives in with what Gita says next:
Then how much more so in the case of holy Brahmanas and also of devoted royal
sages! Having come into this imparmanent and unhappy world, engage yourself in My
worship. (Gita 9.33)
Krishna knows that Arjuna looks up to Brahmanas and royal sages. So what Krishna is saying
in these two verses is that social background is NOT an obstacle to God realization. There is another question here. If varna is through conduct then why is Krishna talking about holy Brahmanas. The answer is that Krishna has not yet defined the terms Brahmana etc (he will define in chapter 18) and he is using these examples (women, vaishya, holy Brahmanas, Royal sages) to show that social background is NOT an obstacle to God realization.
Gangajal
[QUOTE]I think Arjuna's worries and Vidura's treatment by society are not at the same level as Sri Krishna's sayings. Even then Arjuna's worries about kula-strIs can be understood through the worries about varNa samkaratA.[/QUOTE]
Yes, no one reads the Gita to read Arjuna's opinions. Gita is read to read Krishna's teachings.
[QUOTE]Regarding Chapter 9 shlokas 32, I read 'pApayoniH' not as an adjective as you have done but as a noun. In fact a anvaya+tranlation that I have has interpreted the word as a noun. In the next shloka Sri Krishna also talks about brahmanas and kshatryiyas. The overall import of shlokas 32,33 is that strIs, vaishyas, shudras, brahmanas, kshatriyas, and even the pApayoniH (people born in sin) are saved if they focus their attention towards God.
Shloka 33 doesn't say that it is any easier for brahmanas and kshatriyas to be saved than others. It says that it is easier for brahmanas who are 'puNyas' that is pious and kshtriyas who are like sages (rAjarShi), to be saved, not just any brahmanas and any kshatriyas. Duryodhana was a kshatriya, but wasn't really a rAjarShi![/QUOTE]
The word Papayoni in Gita 9.32 can not be taken literally as born in sin. After all Gita 9.32 says:
O son of Pritha! Taking refuge in Me, women, Vaishyas, Sudras, and likewise
even papayoni (men born in sin) , attain to the highest spiritual goal. (Gita 9.32)
How can anyone put half of mankind, women, in the same status as papayoni if papayoni is taken literally to mean "men born in sin"? This just doesn't make any sense. The context suggests that
the word papayoni means, "socially handicapped". So what Gita is saying here is that even people who are socially handicapped will attain the highest goal. This is Krishna's answer to Arjuna's statement early in the Gita about women being corrupted and varnashankar occuring. Krishna knew that Arjuna looked down upon women as socially inferior.
This interpretation also jives in with what Gita says next:
Then how much more so in the case of holy Brahmanas and also of devoted royal
sages! Having come into this imparmanent and unhappy world, engage yourself in My
worship. (Gita 9.33)
Krishna knows that Arjuna looks up to Brahmanas and royal sages. So what Krishna is saying
in these two verses is that social background is NOT an obstacle to God realization. There is another question here. If varna is through conduct then why is Krishna talking about holy Brahmanas. The answer is that Krishna has not yet defined the terms Brahmana etc (he will define in chapter 18) and he is using these examples (women, vaishya, holy Brahmanas, Royal sages) to show that social background is NOT an obstacle to God realization.
Gangajal