P. K. Manansala picks up some more obfuscating verbiage which downplays the S. Asian input into C Asia - in one of the genetic papers:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akandabara...sage/20126
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->From: "Paul Kekai Manansala" <p.manansala@...>
Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005Â 10:49 am
Subject: Re: Fwd: AIT in deep trouble :-)
--- In akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com, "ulagankmy" <ulagankmy@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In IndianCivilization@yahoogroups.com, "Rajita Rajvasishth"
> <rajita_rajvasishth@y...> wrote:
>
> P
Therefore, our data do not support models that invoke
> a pronounced recent genetic input from Central Asia to explain the
> observed genetic variation in South Asia. R1a1 and R2 haplogroups
> indicate demographic complexity that is inconsistent with a recent
> single history. Associated microsatellite analyses of the
> high-frequency R1a1 haplogroup chromosomes indicate independent recent
> histories of the Indus Valley and the peninsular Indian region.
<b>This looks like an "advance to the rear" strategy.</b>
While admitting that Central Asians had little Holocene impact on
South Asia in terms of Y chromosomes, they are also cutting off any
possible South Asian origin for markers in Central Asia and Europe.
<b>In other words, when R1a1 was thought to have indicated an Indo-Aryan
invasion/migration it had one origin, now that it could possibly show
migrations the other way around, it possibly has multiple independent
origins.</b>
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
http://sambali.blogspot.com/
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As usual, Manansala is merciless in his analysis:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akandabara...sage/20154<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->From: "Paul Kekai Manansala" <p.manansala@...>
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005Â 10:21 am
Subject: Re: Nailing the coffin of AIT/AMT: genetic study confirms indigenous origins,
<b>The recent Sengupta study amplifying something already brought out
publicly by Oppenheimer is a great blow to the AMT theory, which had
shifted toward male lineage evidence.</b>
The fact that ancestral R haplotypes have their highest diversity in
India, in tribals followed by lower castes, might even supports
out-of-India arguments.
There is actually more evidence of a female migration into India, in
the form of rather rare U haplotypes, rather than an herrenvolk invasion.
<b>The only hope for the AIT/AMT people is to find ancient DNA samples
and hope they test differently in a manner positive to their theories.</b>
Then they can suggest that the lineages of the old invaders/migrants
simply died out.
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
http://sambali.blogspot.com/<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Note that U is a daughter of Rohani. Both are firmly anchored in continental India.
Manansala's suggestion of testing ancient DNA, eg from Tarim in C Asia, would only further magnify the the ancient Manju clades emanating from Inida. The signature of these Indian Maju clades was overlaid by the Mongolid (east Asian) Manju Clades during the Mongol-turk-altai expansion. Hemphill's craniometric study of Qawrighul confirmed this general pattern. Sadly, we can also tease out obfuscating statements from Hemphill's paper.
Manansala summarizes:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akandabara...sage/20186
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->From: "Paul Kekai Manansala" <p.manansala@...>
Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005Â 9:59 pm
Subject: Fwd: Re: AIT in deep trouble :-)Â
--- In akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com, "ulagankmy" <ulagankmy@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In IndianCivilization@yahoogroups.com, "Rajita Rajvasishth"
> <rajita_rajvasishth@y...> wrote:
>
> Of course the presence of L1 shared by Marathas, Dravidian tribes and
> Lower Castes and Iyer+IYengar suggests that some of the latter
> brahmins are indeed secondary claimants to that status.
>
The genetic data itself suggests nothing but that the brahmins are an
indigenous caste raised mainly from local R haplotypes.
<b>The cline maps show almost all frequency and variance clines going
from south to north, or east to west.</b>
Only the R1a1 variance cline shows a clear west to east pattern, but
at odds with its own frequency cline. Otoh, R2 has a east to west
variance cline.
<b>It really does look like the modern male population arises mainly from
the south and east of India supporting somewhat the Puranic legends</b>
(time resolution though is low).
This was the first study to show O haplotype in India, so I'm guessing
there's still a lot to learn about Indian Y chromosome demography.
Also, I have no idea why such a small SE Asian sample (6 from
Cambodia) was taken given the Austric presence in India.
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
http://sambali.blogspot.com/
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akandabara...sage/20126
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->From: "Paul Kekai Manansala" <p.manansala@...>
Date: Sat Dec 17, 2005Â 10:49 am
Subject: Re: Fwd: AIT in deep trouble :-)
--- In akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com, "ulagankmy" <ulagankmy@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In IndianCivilization@yahoogroups.com, "Rajita Rajvasishth"
> <rajita_rajvasishth@y...> wrote:
>
> P
Therefore, our data do not support models that invoke
> a pronounced recent genetic input from Central Asia to explain the
> observed genetic variation in South Asia. R1a1 and R2 haplogroups
> indicate demographic complexity that is inconsistent with a recent
> single history. Associated microsatellite analyses of the
> high-frequency R1a1 haplogroup chromosomes indicate independent recent
> histories of the Indus Valley and the peninsular Indian region.
<b>This looks like an "advance to the rear" strategy.</b>
While admitting that Central Asians had little Holocene impact on
South Asia in terms of Y chromosomes, they are also cutting off any
possible South Asian origin for markers in Central Asia and Europe.
<b>In other words, when R1a1 was thought to have indicated an Indo-Aryan
invasion/migration it had one origin, now that it could possibly show
migrations the other way around, it possibly has multiple independent
origins.</b>
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
http://sambali.blogspot.com/
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As usual, Manansala is merciless in his analysis:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akandabara...sage/20154<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->From: "Paul Kekai Manansala" <p.manansala@...>
Date: Mon Dec 19, 2005Â 10:21 am
Subject: Re: Nailing the coffin of AIT/AMT: genetic study confirms indigenous origins,
<b>The recent Sengupta study amplifying something already brought out
publicly by Oppenheimer is a great blow to the AMT theory, which had
shifted toward male lineage evidence.</b>
The fact that ancestral R haplotypes have their highest diversity in
India, in tribals followed by lower castes, might even supports
out-of-India arguments.
There is actually more evidence of a female migration into India, in
the form of rather rare U haplotypes, rather than an herrenvolk invasion.
<b>The only hope for the AIT/AMT people is to find ancient DNA samples
and hope they test differently in a manner positive to their theories.</b>
Then they can suggest that the lineages of the old invaders/migrants
simply died out.
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
http://sambali.blogspot.com/<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Note that U is a daughter of Rohani. Both are firmly anchored in continental India.
Manansala's suggestion of testing ancient DNA, eg from Tarim in C Asia, would only further magnify the the ancient Manju clades emanating from Inida. The signature of these Indian Maju clades was overlaid by the Mongolid (east Asian) Manju Clades during the Mongol-turk-altai expansion. Hemphill's craniometric study of Qawrighul confirmed this general pattern. Sadly, we can also tease out obfuscating statements from Hemphill's paper.
Manansala summarizes:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akandabara...sage/20186
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->From: "Paul Kekai Manansala" <p.manansala@...>
Date: Tue Dec 20, 2005Â 9:59 pm
Subject: Fwd: Re: AIT in deep trouble :-)Â
--- In akandabaratam@yahoogroups.com, "ulagankmy" <ulagankmy@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In IndianCivilization@yahoogroups.com, "Rajita Rajvasishth"
> <rajita_rajvasishth@y...> wrote:
>
> Of course the presence of L1 shared by Marathas, Dravidian tribes and
> Lower Castes and Iyer+IYengar suggests that some of the latter
> brahmins are indeed secondary claimants to that status.
>
The genetic data itself suggests nothing but that the brahmins are an
indigenous caste raised mainly from local R haplotypes.
<b>The cline maps show almost all frequency and variance clines going
from south to north, or east to west.</b>
Only the R1a1 variance cline shows a clear west to east pattern, but
at odds with its own frequency cline. Otoh, R2 has a east to west
variance cline.
<b>It really does look like the modern male population arises mainly from
the south and east of India supporting somewhat the Puranic legends</b>
(time resolution though is low).
This was the first study to show O haplotype in India, so I'm guessing
there's still a lot to learn about Indian Y chromosome demography.
Also, I have no idea why such a small SE Asian sample (6 from
Cambodia) was taken given the Austric presence in India.
Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala
http://sambali.blogspot.com/
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->