<!--QuoteBegin-Singhi Kaya+Aug 15 2006, 10:15 AM-->QUOTE(Singhi Kaya @ Aug 15 2006, 10:15 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Don't you think step 1 & 2 can be interchanged given that finding an authentic sat-guru is so tricky these days??[right][snapback]55659[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These days, those days, or any days - finding a suitable Guru is indeed very tricky. Even in the days of Siddhartha Gautam, he had to go from one Guru to the other a dozens of times not finding a suitable Guru. In Tretayug too, Janak had to struggle to find a suitable Guru before Ashtavakra himself came to him.
Yes indeed, identifying a right Guru is very difficult. But earth is never devoid of Gurus. And finding a guru is a must. Guru can not be substituted by anything easily, not for the ordinary minds. God also helps one in finding ones Guru, if there is the urge. In fact Guru is also on the look out for the seeker. (Incidently even Ramakrishna told Narendra when they met for the the first time - I was waiting for you, where were you?)
Step 1 and 2 are not sequencial and I had mentioned it already in my post. One can still live his life as per the ideals mentioned in shastras and parallely look out for the Guru. In Sant Marg this process is called Nij-Kripa, Ish-Kripa, Guru-Kripa. First seeker has to bestow grace upon himself by trying to become suitable for Sadhana, then God graces him by makig him meet his Guru, and ultimately Guru graces him by helping with God-realization/self-realization.
<!--QuoteBegin-Singhi Kaya+Aug 15 2006, 10:15 AM-->QUOTE(Singhi Kaya @ Aug 15 2006, 10:15 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->And instead of Yama and Niyamas, I think Sri Krishna's Deva-Asur Sampad Bhibag Yog lists a much complete sets of qualities regarding what leads to truth and what leads to the path away from God.[right][snapback]55659[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was only giving a suggestion to member Mitradena, when he asked the steps of being a "better" hindu, and yam-niyam were some of the basic starting points in my opinion. Means of acheiving yam-niyam may differ.
Yam and Niyam are neither "instead" nor exclusive with what Bhagvan Sri Krishna describes in Devasur Sampad Vibhag Yog (BG Chapter 16). If you want we can go into detail, but just go through that chapter and you would see how Sri Krishna describes all practical aspects of life - with no contradiction with Yams-Niyams at all. Like his wonderful explanation about "Daan" and you may argue where is Daan in Yam-Niyam. Daan is one mode of the "Tap" which is one of the Niyams. Likewise are other practical aspects of Yam-Niyam too.
In Shanti Parva of Mahabharat, Pitamah Bheeshma has referred to "YamNiyamam" as embodiment of Sri Krishna himself (read Vishnu Sahastranaamam).
<!--QuoteBegin-Singhi Kaya+Aug 15 2006, 10:15 AM-->QUOTE(Singhi Kaya @ Aug 15 2006, 10:15 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Yama, Niyama is true but since some essential divine qualities (Like Tejas) has been skipped in the yogic yama and niyama, it's application in all aspects of life outside astanga yoga may make one weak. And it is a fully byakti dharma. Deva-Asur Sampad Vibhag Yog applies to a byakti and Samaj equally.
[right][snapback]55659[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tejas skipped by Yam-Niyam
===========================
Your comparing Tejas with Yam-Niyam shows that you have not understood Yam and Niyam. While Yam-Niyams are disciplines and restraints which are "practiced", "Tejas" is only a virtue and not a practice. A practicener may practice the Yams - Truthfulness, Non-violence, Non-stealing, Bramhacharya, non-accumulating and Niyams - cleaneliness, Contentment, Tapas, retrospection, and Ishwar-Pranidhan. On the other hand, Tejas is a divine virtue by which wrongful opponents become weak when confronted. How do you think should one "practice" the quality of Tejas that you think is "skipped" by Yam-Niyam? In fact, Tejas comes naturally to someone who follows Yam(brahmacharya) and Niyam(Tapasya). Example role models of Tejas - Bheeshma, Hanuman, Lakshman, Parashuram. And they are also role-models of fourth Yam-Brahmacharya and third Niyam-Tapasya.
Likewise some other divine virtues which you did not mention along with Tejas are Veeryam, Balam, Ojas, Manyur, and Sahyam (from the very famous Rigved prayer "Tejo Asi Tejo Mayi Dhehi, Veeryo Asi Veeryo Mayi Dhehi...) - and all of these virtues are surely inculcated by the the practice of Yam-Niyam. And yes, one may follow Sri Krishna's explaination of it, if that suits that person better. It really is most excellent explanation.
Yam-Niyam may make one weak!!
=============================
Really!! Please explain/substanciate.
Vyakti Vs Samaj
=================
True Dharma can only be Vyaktigat or personal. In fact extremely personal. As many men that many paths without hindering each others - all leading unto same goal - anyways there is but only one goal. Can you quote Bhagvad Gita where it says "Samaj" has to fllow certain dharma? That concept - Dharma of samaj - is western in itself. In east, samaj is a convenient and logical system of "Samashti" allowing individuals (Vyashti) to follow their own individual Dharma peacefully.
<!--QuoteBegin-Singhi Kaya+Aug 15 2006, 10:15 AM-->QUOTE(Singhi Kaya @ Aug 15 2006, 10:15 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->-----------------RANT ON------------------------
...
---------------RANT OFF----------------------------
[right][snapback]55659[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is meant by "RANT" and why did you tag the text you posted as RANT? Unnecessary displays dwesha and anger on such a great forum that we have. I thought we were dis-passionately discussing an extremely serious and meaningful topic.
But post of yours is not alone. Here we go:
<!--QuoteBegin-prem+Aug 15 2006, 05:16 PM-->QUOTE(prem @ Aug 15 2006, 05:16 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Onlee the fanatic followers of egoistic (Humility , the first sign ripe soul)  Prabupad or charltan ( no control over desires and Indriyas) Rajneesh or Sivanda (greedy) cultists etc will find solace in the exclusive fameworks proposed by supossed specialists. Snatani dont need to cut others down to show Snatan Dharma's greatness
[right][snapback]55690[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Prem, I think this is both sad and strange. On one hand you say Sanatanees done have to cut others down, and yet you have hurled three stones to three great spiritual leaders in the previous sentance! Only displays an attempt of proving 'my well is the largest ocean of the world, all others are smaller'.
I can only remind what Yudhishthir had told Kauravs ad Pandavs - "Vayam Panch-adhikam Shatam" - we are one hundred plus five, when faced by an enemy.
Today all branches of Hindu/Indic/Sanatan/Sikh/Bauddha/Jain/etc/etc/etc are facing common enemies hell-bent on finishing this tree off, and here we are busy in showing each other's small branches down instead of saving the tree itself. Why should we also not say - 'Vayam Panch-adhikam Shatam' and discourage all voices of disunity???
These days, those days, or any days - finding a suitable Guru is indeed very tricky. Even in the days of Siddhartha Gautam, he had to go from one Guru to the other a dozens of times not finding a suitable Guru. In Tretayug too, Janak had to struggle to find a suitable Guru before Ashtavakra himself came to him.
Yes indeed, identifying a right Guru is very difficult. But earth is never devoid of Gurus. And finding a guru is a must. Guru can not be substituted by anything easily, not for the ordinary minds. God also helps one in finding ones Guru, if there is the urge. In fact Guru is also on the look out for the seeker. (Incidently even Ramakrishna told Narendra when they met for the the first time - I was waiting for you, where were you?)
Step 1 and 2 are not sequencial and I had mentioned it already in my post. One can still live his life as per the ideals mentioned in shastras and parallely look out for the Guru. In Sant Marg this process is called Nij-Kripa, Ish-Kripa, Guru-Kripa. First seeker has to bestow grace upon himself by trying to become suitable for Sadhana, then God graces him by makig him meet his Guru, and ultimately Guru graces him by helping with God-realization/self-realization.
<!--QuoteBegin-Singhi Kaya+Aug 15 2006, 10:15 AM-->QUOTE(Singhi Kaya @ Aug 15 2006, 10:15 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->And instead of Yama and Niyamas, I think Sri Krishna's Deva-Asur Sampad Bhibag Yog lists a much complete sets of qualities regarding what leads to truth and what leads to the path away from God.[right][snapback]55659[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was only giving a suggestion to member Mitradena, when he asked the steps of being a "better" hindu, and yam-niyam were some of the basic starting points in my opinion. Means of acheiving yam-niyam may differ.
Yam and Niyam are neither "instead" nor exclusive with what Bhagvan Sri Krishna describes in Devasur Sampad Vibhag Yog (BG Chapter 16). If you want we can go into detail, but just go through that chapter and you would see how Sri Krishna describes all practical aspects of life - with no contradiction with Yams-Niyams at all. Like his wonderful explanation about "Daan" and you may argue where is Daan in Yam-Niyam. Daan is one mode of the "Tap" which is one of the Niyams. Likewise are other practical aspects of Yam-Niyam too.
In Shanti Parva of Mahabharat, Pitamah Bheeshma has referred to "YamNiyamam" as embodiment of Sri Krishna himself (read Vishnu Sahastranaamam).
<!--QuoteBegin-Singhi Kaya+Aug 15 2006, 10:15 AM-->QUOTE(Singhi Kaya @ Aug 15 2006, 10:15 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Yama, Niyama is true but since some essential divine qualities (Like Tejas) has been skipped in the yogic yama and niyama, it's application in all aspects of life outside astanga yoga may make one weak. And it is a fully byakti dharma. Deva-Asur Sampad Vibhag Yog applies to a byakti and Samaj equally.
[right][snapback]55659[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tejas skipped by Yam-Niyam
===========================
Your comparing Tejas with Yam-Niyam shows that you have not understood Yam and Niyam. While Yam-Niyams are disciplines and restraints which are "practiced", "Tejas" is only a virtue and not a practice. A practicener may practice the Yams - Truthfulness, Non-violence, Non-stealing, Bramhacharya, non-accumulating and Niyams - cleaneliness, Contentment, Tapas, retrospection, and Ishwar-Pranidhan. On the other hand, Tejas is a divine virtue by which wrongful opponents become weak when confronted. How do you think should one "practice" the quality of Tejas that you think is "skipped" by Yam-Niyam? In fact, Tejas comes naturally to someone who follows Yam(brahmacharya) and Niyam(Tapasya). Example role models of Tejas - Bheeshma, Hanuman, Lakshman, Parashuram. And they are also role-models of fourth Yam-Brahmacharya and third Niyam-Tapasya.
Likewise some other divine virtues which you did not mention along with Tejas are Veeryam, Balam, Ojas, Manyur, and Sahyam (from the very famous Rigved prayer "Tejo Asi Tejo Mayi Dhehi, Veeryo Asi Veeryo Mayi Dhehi...) - and all of these virtues are surely inculcated by the the practice of Yam-Niyam. And yes, one may follow Sri Krishna's explaination of it, if that suits that person better. It really is most excellent explanation.
Yam-Niyam may make one weak!!
=============================
Really!! Please explain/substanciate.
Vyakti Vs Samaj
=================
True Dharma can only be Vyaktigat or personal. In fact extremely personal. As many men that many paths without hindering each others - all leading unto same goal - anyways there is but only one goal. Can you quote Bhagvad Gita where it says "Samaj" has to fllow certain dharma? That concept - Dharma of samaj - is western in itself. In east, samaj is a convenient and logical system of "Samashti" allowing individuals (Vyashti) to follow their own individual Dharma peacefully.
<!--QuoteBegin-Singhi Kaya+Aug 15 2006, 10:15 AM-->QUOTE(Singhi Kaya @ Aug 15 2006, 10:15 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->-----------------RANT ON------------------------
...
---------------RANT OFF----------------------------
[right][snapback]55659[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is meant by "RANT" and why did you tag the text you posted as RANT? Unnecessary displays dwesha and anger on such a great forum that we have. I thought we were dis-passionately discussing an extremely serious and meaningful topic.
But post of yours is not alone. Here we go:
<!--QuoteBegin-prem+Aug 15 2006, 05:16 PM-->QUOTE(prem @ Aug 15 2006, 05:16 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Onlee the fanatic followers of egoistic (Humility , the first sign ripe soul)  Prabupad or charltan ( no control over desires and Indriyas) Rajneesh or Sivanda (greedy) cultists etc will find solace in the exclusive fameworks proposed by supossed specialists. Snatani dont need to cut others down to show Snatan Dharma's greatness
[right][snapback]55690[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Prem, I think this is both sad and strange. On one hand you say Sanatanees done have to cut others down, and yet you have hurled three stones to three great spiritual leaders in the previous sentance! Only displays an attempt of proving 'my well is the largest ocean of the world, all others are smaller'.
I can only remind what Yudhishthir had told Kauravs ad Pandavs - "Vayam Panch-adhikam Shatam" - we are one hundred plus five, when faced by an enemy.
Today all branches of Hindu/Indic/Sanatan/Sikh/Bauddha/Jain/etc/etc/etc are facing common enemies hell-bent on finishing this tree off, and here we are busy in showing each other's small branches down instead of saving the tree itself. Why should we also not say - 'Vayam Panch-adhikam Shatam' and discourage all voices of disunity???