11-08-2006, 09:06 AM
Bodhi,
Thanks for the comments.
I agonized over the same thoughts. A nation appears and acts like an individual in many situations. So does a family, a caste, a religion, fans of a cine-star, fans of a crtain sports team, a lynching mob ..., all these groupings can act like individuals and have individual personalities etc.
In my opinion there are two kinds of belonging of an 'individual' to a 'general'. One kind of belonging is non-essential (even optional), other type is essenial.
Non-essential membership is like being a fan of a certain sports team. Essential type is like being a human. As long I live I will be a human. But even being human is not an essential type of belonging if we assume that a soul or jiva survives death. If that jiva is reborn as a member of another species, then that means belonging to the group of humans is also not an essential type of membership.
According to vedanta, all identifications and memberships are in the non-essential category except the one identification of the individual jiva with the universal brahman. Only that identity can't be negated/subrated. All other identities can. Even while living in the world, an individual can increasinglybecome aware of the essential identity of his deepest being with the universl Brahman, (the Atman that is Brahman).
But karma-phala etc work at a lower level, where time is active and cause-effect have their play.
Karma-phala principle presumes existence of a law, an ethical law, the dharma or the R^ita, breaking which is pApa and following which is puNya. It also presumes that there is a mechanism to enforce that law. In hinduism, the mechanism is called dharma or dharmarAja. Ostensibly dhrmarAja (or yamarAja) decides what a person deserves according to his/her actions. Whether dharmarAja is an individual, a commitee, or simply a complicated mechanism of action-reaction is not important for our discussion.
There are interventions (in the action of the law of dharma) possible, specifically a saint or God's grace can lessen the karma-phala. But usually it is said that avoiding one's karma is very hard. Even when a saint takes over someone's karma, that saint still has to suffer on the behalf of that person. Only true intervention allowed is divine-grace that can neutralize anything, since divine is eternally free and not bound by any laws.
If we start talking about karma of nations, for example, then we will have to presume existence of a dharmic law for the nations and an enforcing mechanism.
Sri Krishna in Gita says he is present as the self in all the beings. But he doesn't mean that he is present as the self in all possible identifications a person can make, such as a nation, or a religion.
To me it appears that it is sufficient to presume existence of dharma (karma-phala etc follow dharma) for individuals. The effects for any collective identifications then follow from the individuals' karma.
Lets say that certain ideologies, practices etc that are in general agreement with the Dharma, will be favoured by the dharmic law in making certain meritorious individuals to become member of that group. So if the practices of a nation or a religion etc are in line with the Dharma, then dhArrmic law would use membership in those groupings to reward meritorious souls. In turn those groupings get strengthened by further actions of those meritorious souls as long as they are in accordance with the dharma. On the other hand adhArmic groupings will accrue less meritorious souls as members and suffer accordingly.
In this sense may be we can propose a 'karma' of a grouping or a nation. Although it is still based fundamentally on the 'karma' of the individual.
To consider a physics analogy, it is like saying a phonon is a fundamental particle although it is basically a result of all the vibrations taking place in a solid lattice, and therefore a phonon is not on the same fundamental footing as an electron or proton.
Thanks for the comments.
I agonized over the same thoughts. A nation appears and acts like an individual in many situations. So does a family, a caste, a religion, fans of a cine-star, fans of a crtain sports team, a lynching mob ..., all these groupings can act like individuals and have individual personalities etc.
In my opinion there are two kinds of belonging of an 'individual' to a 'general'. One kind of belonging is non-essential (even optional), other type is essenial.
Non-essential membership is like being a fan of a certain sports team. Essential type is like being a human. As long I live I will be a human. But even being human is not an essential type of belonging if we assume that a soul or jiva survives death. If that jiva is reborn as a member of another species, then that means belonging to the group of humans is also not an essential type of membership.
According to vedanta, all identifications and memberships are in the non-essential category except the one identification of the individual jiva with the universal brahman. Only that identity can't be negated/subrated. All other identities can. Even while living in the world, an individual can increasinglybecome aware of the essential identity of his deepest being with the universl Brahman, (the Atman that is Brahman).
But karma-phala etc work at a lower level, where time is active and cause-effect have their play.
Karma-phala principle presumes existence of a law, an ethical law, the dharma or the R^ita, breaking which is pApa and following which is puNya. It also presumes that there is a mechanism to enforce that law. In hinduism, the mechanism is called dharma or dharmarAja. Ostensibly dhrmarAja (or yamarAja) decides what a person deserves according to his/her actions. Whether dharmarAja is an individual, a commitee, or simply a complicated mechanism of action-reaction is not important for our discussion.
There are interventions (in the action of the law of dharma) possible, specifically a saint or God's grace can lessen the karma-phala. But usually it is said that avoiding one's karma is very hard. Even when a saint takes over someone's karma, that saint still has to suffer on the behalf of that person. Only true intervention allowed is divine-grace that can neutralize anything, since divine is eternally free and not bound by any laws.
If we start talking about karma of nations, for example, then we will have to presume existence of a dharmic law for the nations and an enforcing mechanism.
Sri Krishna in Gita says he is present as the self in all the beings. But he doesn't mean that he is present as the self in all possible identifications a person can make, such as a nation, or a religion.
To me it appears that it is sufficient to presume existence of dharma (karma-phala etc follow dharma) for individuals. The effects for any collective identifications then follow from the individuals' karma.
Lets say that certain ideologies, practices etc that are in general agreement with the Dharma, will be favoured by the dharmic law in making certain meritorious individuals to become member of that group. So if the practices of a nation or a religion etc are in line with the Dharma, then dhArrmic law would use membership in those groupings to reward meritorious souls. In turn those groupings get strengthened by further actions of those meritorious souls as long as they are in accordance with the dharma. On the other hand adhArmic groupings will accrue less meritorious souls as members and suffer accordingly.
In this sense may be we can propose a 'karma' of a grouping or a nation. Although it is still based fundamentally on the 'karma' of the individual.
To consider a physics analogy, it is like saying a phonon is a fundamental particle although it is basically a result of all the vibrations taking place in a solid lattice, and therefore a phonon is not on the same fundamental footing as an electron or proton.