12-08-2006, 10:22 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-digvijay+Dec 8 2006, 08:42 AM-->QUOTE(digvijay @ Dec 8 2006, 08:42 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Bharatvarsh+Dec 8 2006, 07:26 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bharatvarsh @ Dec 8 2006, 07:26 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->(Though it is a different matter that once you leave Hinduism you cannot be called a rajput. But I guess blood does have something to do with bravery).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really, until Shivaji many Marathas were serving under Muslims and did not have any fame like they do now, the Tamils were declared non martial by the British but I am sure you must have heard of the LTTE (still the most organised terrorist/guerilla group in the world).
Bengalis were also declared non martial but most of the people who shot dead British officials came from that province not the so called martial classes like Rajputs or Gurkhas.
[right][snapback]61815[/snapback][/right]
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Hello Bharat,
History of India is a long one. People of Maharashtra had kings who fought many many wars before the time of Shivaji. Similar things happened in Tamil Nadu/ Bengal and pretty much all parts of India.
So do not give much credence to what British say.
Indian kingdoms, throughout the length and breadth, were organized according to the classical varna system and kshatriya abounded in all parts of India.
-Digvijay
[right][snapback]61816[/snapback][/right]
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Peshwa Bajirao I and other brave guys of his lineage Chimnaji Appa, his son Sadashivrao were no kshatriyas. Shivaji's warriors were drawn from the lowest of classes and had courageous soldiers from them. Holkar and Shindes had pretty humble origins. When caste system is not that rigid, people from different classes can move across professions. Typically in ancient India you have mostly kshatriya origins and to some extent Brahmin origins of various dynasties for e.g. Sungas, Kanvas, Satavahanas (possibly), Vakatakas, Kadambas, Chach's line in Sind, Saluva dynasty of Vijayanagara (possibly), Peshwas. Also there were Brahmins who were generals under various regimes. Even under Mughals Giridhar Bahadur who was the governor of Malwa was a Brahmin. Kshatriyas and Brahmins were dominant castes, but you find rulers of other lineage as well like shudra dynasty which ruled before Chach in Sind, Palas have a disputed origin, Nanda dynasty, even Mauryas it is so claimed
"The origin of the Palas is nowhere clearly stated in any of the numerous of the Pala records. But Gopala is stated to have belonged to Kshatriya lineage. According to Taranatha, Gopala was born of a Kshatriya family near Pundravardhan (north Bengal) and was later selected a ruler of Bhangala (Vangala). But some of the historical writings of this period claim that Palas belonged to Shudra caste. Some later writings even claim the Palas were Kayasthas as some of the Pala descendents claimed to belong to the sub-caste."
As you can see there is a doubt. Sometimes people claimed lineage to kshatriya caste to justify their claim to rule and to intermarry with other royal lineages to make their claims secure.
But I think our philosophy is exalted about all these things about caste and profession. In Mahabharata there is a story about how a sage learns wisdom from a butcher. You are a Brahmana if you think and act like one, you are a kshatriya if you think and act like one. Shivaji had to go through a ritual purification process to become a kshatriya, but considering his track record he doesn't require a ritual to prove him a kshatriya.
"There is a story in the Mahabharata which illustrates how neglecting oneâs duty can become himsa (injurious) to yourself and others. A young monk sitting under a tree was meditating when the droppings of a bird fell on him. The monk got very angry and looked up at the bird which resulted in the bird being burnt to death. The monk later went to a nearby village to beg for food. He stopped at one house and asked for food. The lady of the house came out and asked him to wait while she went back inside. The impatient monk raised his voice in anger at which the lady came out and said, âI am not the little bird that you can burn with your anger.â The monk was taken aback and asked how she knew about the incident. The lady replied, âFirst come inside and have food. I was not sitting idle while you were waiting. I was doing my duty of attending to my sick husband, and now I am ready to serve you. I am an ordinary housewife, discharging my duties with love for God. If you want to know more go to the butcher in the next village and he will teach you.â
This puzzled the monk even more. He could not understand how a butcher who lived by killing animals and selling their flesh could be his teacher. But he decided to see for himself and approached the butcher. The butcher looked at him and said, âI know that the lady from the next village sent you. Please wait till I finish my work and we will go home and have a discussion.â When the butcher took him home, he first attended to his old parents by serving them food and making them comfortable. Then he served some food to the monk before he himself took his food. After eating he said, âI know you are curious about how the lady and I know about you. Each human life is full of duties and responsibilities. We are not great yogis or scholars. We try to do our duties in the best possible manner. You are a young man with few attachments, yet your father is old with nobody to take care of him. Have you thought about him? Being the only son you have neglected your duty towards him, which has caused him pain. Please go back home and serve your ailing father. Do your assigned duty well and everything else will come to you.â"
There are various stories in Upanishads which uphold one way of life or other, but you got to do good at your job, thats the import. So if a Brahmin picks up a sword and decides he is going to have a life of soldiery, he should become good at it. If a Kshatriya decides that he is going to start trade, then he should strive to do his best. But at all times you should be guided by the dhrama.
Not really, until Shivaji many Marathas were serving under Muslims and did not have any fame like they do now, the Tamils were declared non martial by the British but I am sure you must have heard of the LTTE (still the most organised terrorist/guerilla group in the world).
Bengalis were also declared non martial but most of the people who shot dead British officials came from that province not the so called martial classes like Rajputs or Gurkhas.
[right][snapback]61815[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hello Bharat,
History of India is a long one. People of Maharashtra had kings who fought many many wars before the time of Shivaji. Similar things happened in Tamil Nadu/ Bengal and pretty much all parts of India.
So do not give much credence to what British say.
Indian kingdoms, throughout the length and breadth, were organized according to the classical varna system and kshatriya abounded in all parts of India.
-Digvijay
[right][snapback]61816[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Peshwa Bajirao I and other brave guys of his lineage Chimnaji Appa, his son Sadashivrao were no kshatriyas. Shivaji's warriors were drawn from the lowest of classes and had courageous soldiers from them. Holkar and Shindes had pretty humble origins. When caste system is not that rigid, people from different classes can move across professions. Typically in ancient India you have mostly kshatriya origins and to some extent Brahmin origins of various dynasties for e.g. Sungas, Kanvas, Satavahanas (possibly), Vakatakas, Kadambas, Chach's line in Sind, Saluva dynasty of Vijayanagara (possibly), Peshwas. Also there were Brahmins who were generals under various regimes. Even under Mughals Giridhar Bahadur who was the governor of Malwa was a Brahmin. Kshatriyas and Brahmins were dominant castes, but you find rulers of other lineage as well like shudra dynasty which ruled before Chach in Sind, Palas have a disputed origin, Nanda dynasty, even Mauryas it is so claimed
"The origin of the Palas is nowhere clearly stated in any of the numerous of the Pala records. But Gopala is stated to have belonged to Kshatriya lineage. According to Taranatha, Gopala was born of a Kshatriya family near Pundravardhan (north Bengal) and was later selected a ruler of Bhangala (Vangala). But some of the historical writings of this period claim that Palas belonged to Shudra caste. Some later writings even claim the Palas were Kayasthas as some of the Pala descendents claimed to belong to the sub-caste."
As you can see there is a doubt. Sometimes people claimed lineage to kshatriya caste to justify their claim to rule and to intermarry with other royal lineages to make their claims secure.
But I think our philosophy is exalted about all these things about caste and profession. In Mahabharata there is a story about how a sage learns wisdom from a butcher. You are a Brahmana if you think and act like one, you are a kshatriya if you think and act like one. Shivaji had to go through a ritual purification process to become a kshatriya, but considering his track record he doesn't require a ritual to prove him a kshatriya.
"There is a story in the Mahabharata which illustrates how neglecting oneâs duty can become himsa (injurious) to yourself and others. A young monk sitting under a tree was meditating when the droppings of a bird fell on him. The monk got very angry and looked up at the bird which resulted in the bird being burnt to death. The monk later went to a nearby village to beg for food. He stopped at one house and asked for food. The lady of the house came out and asked him to wait while she went back inside. The impatient monk raised his voice in anger at which the lady came out and said, âI am not the little bird that you can burn with your anger.â The monk was taken aback and asked how she knew about the incident. The lady replied, âFirst come inside and have food. I was not sitting idle while you were waiting. I was doing my duty of attending to my sick husband, and now I am ready to serve you. I am an ordinary housewife, discharging my duties with love for God. If you want to know more go to the butcher in the next village and he will teach you.â
This puzzled the monk even more. He could not understand how a butcher who lived by killing animals and selling their flesh could be his teacher. But he decided to see for himself and approached the butcher. The butcher looked at him and said, âI know that the lady from the next village sent you. Please wait till I finish my work and we will go home and have a discussion.â When the butcher took him home, he first attended to his old parents by serving them food and making them comfortable. Then he served some food to the monk before he himself took his food. After eating he said, âI know you are curious about how the lady and I know about you. Each human life is full of duties and responsibilities. We are not great yogis or scholars. We try to do our duties in the best possible manner. You are a young man with few attachments, yet your father is old with nobody to take care of him. Have you thought about him? Being the only son you have neglected your duty towards him, which has caused him pain. Please go back home and serve your ailing father. Do your assigned duty well and everything else will come to you.â"
There are various stories in Upanishads which uphold one way of life or other, but you got to do good at your job, thats the import. So if a Brahmin picks up a sword and decides he is going to have a life of soldiery, he should become good at it. If a Kshatriya decides that he is going to start trade, then he should strive to do his best. But at all times you should be guided by the dhrama.