Digvijay, (from post # 29)
In general, it is very interesting to read Ramayana and seek the historical, geographical, and military science related hints from there. It is a bit challenging too because unlike Mahabharata, the language of Ramayana is very alankrit. So telling an obvious or a simple fact away from the literary exaggeration is a little bit challenging.
Regarding your mention of Rama being from landlocked Ayodhya, and therefore limited capabilities of Vanara army at sea. The army that fought for Rama was not Ayodhya's army but Kishkindha's army led by Sugreeva. Kishkindha was located roughly around Karnataka of today, and must have had control to shores because Sugreeva's army moved without any resistance or intervention of any other kingdom up to the ocean.
In the Yudhha Kandam of Valmiki Ramayan, there is a description of Ravana's army, organization etc and the code of war.
Take for eaxmple this verse:
sa taam pariSadam kRitsnaam samiikshya samitimjayaH |
prabodhayaamaasa tadaa prahastam vaahiniipatim ||
senaapate yathaa te syuH kRitavidyaashcaturvidhaaH |
yodhaa nagararakshaayaam tathaa vyaadeSTumarhasi ||
(Valmiki Ramayan, Yuddha Kandam Sarg 12 -1&2)
(Then, Ravana, having seen all an eminent persons gathered in the assembly, instructed Prahasta, the chief general of his army (as follows): "O, General! You are entrusted/ordered to command the well-trained warriors belonging to the four divisions of my army. Issue orders to them to ensure the defense of the city."
So my question would be : which are those caturvidhas of army Ravana is talking about. If it is Cavalry, Artillery, Infantry then which is fourth? If he meant Army, Naval, and Airforce then which one is fourth vidha he is referring to?
Likewise, let us take another referenece from the same Kandam. Context is that Rama and others were exploring the options to get the army to Lanka but Ocean was not cooperating. Rama gets enraged and speaks thus:
athovaaca raghushreSThaH saagaram daaruNam vacaH |
adya tvaam shoSayiSyaami sapaataalam mahaarNava ||
sharanirdagdhatoyasya parishuSkasya saagara |
mayaa nihatasattvasya paamsurutpadyate mahaan
matkaarmukanisR^iSTena sharavarSeNa saagara |
param tiiram gamiSyanti padbhireva plavaN^gamaaH
(Valmiki Ramayan, Yuddha Kandam, Sarg 22-1,2,3)
[Then, Rama spoke these harsh words to the ocean: âO, ocean! I will make you dry up now along with where your shores meet the Patala region. O, Ocean! A vast stretch of sand will appear, when your water gets consumed by my arrows; you will get dried up and the creatures inhabiting you get destroyed by me. By a gush of arrows released by my bow, our army can proceed to the other shore even by foot; O, ocean!â]
This means that indeed there was an awareness of the land at the other farthest side of the ocean called Patala, and it is misconception that Patala meant underground.
Another question I have. Then the Ocean God appeared in front of Rama. This is described thus:
tato madhyaat samudrasya saagaraH svayam utthitaH |
udayan hi mahaashailaan meroriva divaa karaH ||
(Valmiki Ramayan, Yuddha Kandam, Sarg 22-17)
[Then, Sagara himself rose from the middle of the ocean as the sun rises at dawn from the huge mountain of Meru.]
Rising of ocean is compared to the rising of Sun from behind the mountain of Meru. The above can be said by a person who resides to the west of Meru parvat to be able to witness the sunrise from behind Meru. So where is Meru? The deseart of Maru/Meru are identified with Marwad (Meruwad) of Rajasthan, but where could be Mountain of Meru? Valmiki lived to the west of it?
raamasya vachanam shrutvaa tam ca dR^iSTvaa mahaasharam ||
mahodadhirmahaatejaa raaghavam vaakyamabraviit |
uttareNaavakaasho.asti kashchitpuNyataro mama ||
drumakulya iti khyaato loke khyaato yathaa bhavaan |
ugradarshanakarmaaNo bahavastatra dasyavaH ||
aabhiirapramukhaaH paapaaH pibanti salilam mama |
tairna tatsparshanam paapam saheyam paapakarmabhiH ||
amoghaH kriyataam raama tatra teSu sharottamaH |
tasya tadvacanam shrutvaa saagarasya mahaatmanaH ||
mumoca tam sharam diiptam param saagaradarshanaat |
tena tanmarukaantaaram p^ithivyaam kila vishrutam
vipaatitaH sharo yatra vajraashanisamaprabhaH |
...
...
vikhyaatam triSu lokeSu madhukaantaarameva ca ||
shoSayitvaa tu tam kukshim raamo dasharathaatmajaH |
varam tasmai dadau vidvaanmarave.amaravikramaH ||
(Valmiki Ramayan, Yuddha Kandam, Sarg 22-30to35 then 39,40)
Hearing Ramaâs words and seeing that powerful arrow, the large splendid Ocean spoke the following words to Rama: âTowards my northern side, there is a holy place. It is well known as Drumatulya, in the same way as you are well known to this world. Numerous robbers of fearful aspect and deeds, having the sinful Abhiras as their chief, drink my waters there. I am not able to bear that touch of those wicked people, the evil doers, O, Rama! Let this excellent arrow with out vain be released over them there. Hearing those words of the high-soled Ocean, Rama released that excellent and splendid arrow towards that place as directed by the ocean. The place where the arrow, whose splendor was akin to that of a thunder and a thunder bolt, was descended by Rama- that place is indeed famous as desert of Maru on this earth. â
Where could "Drumatulay" be as spoken? It though mentions Maru deseart. If it indeed the deseart of Rajasthan mentioned here, then river Saraswati must have already dried up by Rama's (or at least Valmiki's) time?
Another hint at the (absence of) River Saraswati:
Little earlier in the Sarg, Valmiki describes the decorations of Saagara the ocean god as he appeared in front of Rama.
gaN^gaasindhupradhaanaabhiraapagaabhiH samaavR^itaH |
devataanaam saruupaabhirnaanaaruupaabhiriishvaraH ||
(Valmiki Ramayan, Yuddha Kandam, Sarg 22. 23)
[...escorted by rivers mainly the Ganga and Sindhu, endowed with diverse forms resembling various deities, approached Rama with joined palms...]
It mentions that Saagar appeared with pradhana rivers like Ganga and Sindhu (no Saraswati mentioned.)
So, just wandering and stray thoughts and questions I had. No defined objective.
In general, it is very interesting to read Ramayana and seek the historical, geographical, and military science related hints from there. It is a bit challenging too because unlike Mahabharata, the language of Ramayana is very alankrit. So telling an obvious or a simple fact away from the literary exaggeration is a little bit challenging.
Regarding your mention of Rama being from landlocked Ayodhya, and therefore limited capabilities of Vanara army at sea. The army that fought for Rama was not Ayodhya's army but Kishkindha's army led by Sugreeva. Kishkindha was located roughly around Karnataka of today, and must have had control to shores because Sugreeva's army moved without any resistance or intervention of any other kingdom up to the ocean.
In the Yudhha Kandam of Valmiki Ramayan, there is a description of Ravana's army, organization etc and the code of war.
Take for eaxmple this verse:
sa taam pariSadam kRitsnaam samiikshya samitimjayaH |
prabodhayaamaasa tadaa prahastam vaahiniipatim ||
senaapate yathaa te syuH kRitavidyaashcaturvidhaaH |
yodhaa nagararakshaayaam tathaa vyaadeSTumarhasi ||
(Valmiki Ramayan, Yuddha Kandam Sarg 12 -1&2)
(Then, Ravana, having seen all an eminent persons gathered in the assembly, instructed Prahasta, the chief general of his army (as follows): "O, General! You are entrusted/ordered to command the well-trained warriors belonging to the four divisions of my army. Issue orders to them to ensure the defense of the city."
So my question would be : which are those caturvidhas of army Ravana is talking about. If it is Cavalry, Artillery, Infantry then which is fourth? If he meant Army, Naval, and Airforce then which one is fourth vidha he is referring to?
Likewise, let us take another referenece from the same Kandam. Context is that Rama and others were exploring the options to get the army to Lanka but Ocean was not cooperating. Rama gets enraged and speaks thus:
athovaaca raghushreSThaH saagaram daaruNam vacaH |
adya tvaam shoSayiSyaami sapaataalam mahaarNava ||
sharanirdagdhatoyasya parishuSkasya saagara |
mayaa nihatasattvasya paamsurutpadyate mahaan
matkaarmukanisR^iSTena sharavarSeNa saagara |
param tiiram gamiSyanti padbhireva plavaN^gamaaH
(Valmiki Ramayan, Yuddha Kandam, Sarg 22-1,2,3)
[Then, Rama spoke these harsh words to the ocean: âO, ocean! I will make you dry up now along with where your shores meet the Patala region. O, Ocean! A vast stretch of sand will appear, when your water gets consumed by my arrows; you will get dried up and the creatures inhabiting you get destroyed by me. By a gush of arrows released by my bow, our army can proceed to the other shore even by foot; O, ocean!â]
This means that indeed there was an awareness of the land at the other farthest side of the ocean called Patala, and it is misconception that Patala meant underground.
Another question I have. Then the Ocean God appeared in front of Rama. This is described thus:
tato madhyaat samudrasya saagaraH svayam utthitaH |
udayan hi mahaashailaan meroriva divaa karaH ||
(Valmiki Ramayan, Yuddha Kandam, Sarg 22-17)
[Then, Sagara himself rose from the middle of the ocean as the sun rises at dawn from the huge mountain of Meru.]
Rising of ocean is compared to the rising of Sun from behind the mountain of Meru. The above can be said by a person who resides to the west of Meru parvat to be able to witness the sunrise from behind Meru. So where is Meru? The deseart of Maru/Meru are identified with Marwad (Meruwad) of Rajasthan, but where could be Mountain of Meru? Valmiki lived to the west of it?
raamasya vachanam shrutvaa tam ca dR^iSTvaa mahaasharam ||
mahodadhirmahaatejaa raaghavam vaakyamabraviit |
uttareNaavakaasho.asti kashchitpuNyataro mama ||
drumakulya iti khyaato loke khyaato yathaa bhavaan |
ugradarshanakarmaaNo bahavastatra dasyavaH ||
aabhiirapramukhaaH paapaaH pibanti salilam mama |
tairna tatsparshanam paapam saheyam paapakarmabhiH ||
amoghaH kriyataam raama tatra teSu sharottamaH |
tasya tadvacanam shrutvaa saagarasya mahaatmanaH ||
mumoca tam sharam diiptam param saagaradarshanaat |
tena tanmarukaantaaram p^ithivyaam kila vishrutam
vipaatitaH sharo yatra vajraashanisamaprabhaH |
...
...
vikhyaatam triSu lokeSu madhukaantaarameva ca ||
shoSayitvaa tu tam kukshim raamo dasharathaatmajaH |
varam tasmai dadau vidvaanmarave.amaravikramaH ||
(Valmiki Ramayan, Yuddha Kandam, Sarg 22-30to35 then 39,40)
Hearing Ramaâs words and seeing that powerful arrow, the large splendid Ocean spoke the following words to Rama: âTowards my northern side, there is a holy place. It is well known as Drumatulya, in the same way as you are well known to this world. Numerous robbers of fearful aspect and deeds, having the sinful Abhiras as their chief, drink my waters there. I am not able to bear that touch of those wicked people, the evil doers, O, Rama! Let this excellent arrow with out vain be released over them there. Hearing those words of the high-soled Ocean, Rama released that excellent and splendid arrow towards that place as directed by the ocean. The place where the arrow, whose splendor was akin to that of a thunder and a thunder bolt, was descended by Rama- that place is indeed famous as desert of Maru on this earth. â
Where could "Drumatulay" be as spoken? It though mentions Maru deseart. If it indeed the deseart of Rajasthan mentioned here, then river Saraswati must have already dried up by Rama's (or at least Valmiki's) time?
Another hint at the (absence of) River Saraswati:
Little earlier in the Sarg, Valmiki describes the decorations of Saagara the ocean god as he appeared in front of Rama.
gaN^gaasindhupradhaanaabhiraapagaabhiH samaavR^itaH |
devataanaam saruupaabhirnaanaaruupaabhiriishvaraH ||
(Valmiki Ramayan, Yuddha Kandam, Sarg 22. 23)
[...escorted by rivers mainly the Ganga and Sindhu, endowed with diverse forms resembling various deities, approached Rama with joined palms...]
It mentions that Saagar appeared with pradhana rivers like Ganga and Sindhu (no Saraswati mentioned.)
So, just wandering and stray thoughts and questions I had. No defined objective.