12-21-2006, 02:55 AM
X-Posted from BR
ramana wrote
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Has anyone seen the new Umrao Jaan and saw the strains of social decay in Islamic heartland in India, that led to the revival in post 1857 society?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kakkaji wrote
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->ramana:
The 'social decay' of the Delhi-Awadh heartland in that time (after Aurangzeb) is well-known and personified by Mohammad Shah 'Rangeela' and Wazid Ali Shah. It was one reason why many Indians helped the British during 1857 because they did not want to bring back the Mughal+Awadh rule.
Post 1857, when the 'old' order had been brutally and finally put down by the British, the environment became conducive for social reformers to rise from among the new english-educated elite like Raja Rammohan Roy who could confront the social evils that pervaded Hindu society. Even among the Muslims, Sir Syed Ahmed brought about a new, english-educated elite which could not have been possible before the events of 1857.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AnandK wrote
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The "Mohammedan Revival" following 1857 Revolt sought a <b>return</b> to those very "good old days" of Nawabdoms, fawning European lobbyists and salesmen, Tawaifs and Nautch Girls, pan, pulao..... and the occasional old Mullah/Sufi to add some cool "spirituality" to life. IIRC right here in BRF, Singha(?) said something about the RAPE/Indian Islamist's nostalgia for the "Umrao Jaan" and "Pakeezah" lifestyle.
The original Kotha culture vanished because there were no more Nawabs and assorted Pooh-Bah's to patronize these institutions. The Angrez masters, being the true "Wham! Bam! Righto, Ma'am!" British they were, preferred discreet little Zenanas while the lesser officers/subalterns/sepoys were presented with whole Red-Light *Districts* like Kamathipura, G.B.Road, Gandha Gully etc. They had no time for the elaborate rituals, (the usually educated and cultured... and hence too expensive) Tawaifs and their performing arts, the splendor of the Kotha or the social etiquettes the Tawaifs were supposed to teach the adolescent members of Nobility.
Dalrymple's City of Jinns talk about some old Ashraf types's nostalgia for the Kothas..... some maintain these Kothas weren't "just" brothels, but finishing schools, extended arts appreciation tours and what not! <!--emo&:lol:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='laugh.gif' /><!--endemo--> Well, there might be an amount of truth in this too... given Ulema's stance on Music and Dance and of course, <i>Zina</i>. Can't learn all that stuff in a "vetted" Mullah Fakruddin's Madrassa for Young Men [estb. 606 H.E.], eh? Kothas which functioned under direct patronage of the high and mighty, and hence out of Shariyat jurisdiction and other such trifles could provide that....
The point is, loss of this grand lifestyle was a major blow to H&D. AFAIK, the "debauchery" was not seen as any virtue by the beards (and even the reformist beards), but they didn't hold this singularly responsible for loss of power. There were no serious efforts to teach the Moimeen about the real stuff; the virtues of Emancipation, a little Victorian Morality, Monogamy, Science etc..... and they didn't rail against all those Medieval Islamic *institutions* as such. What the Syed Ahmad Khan types did was to infuse a wee little bit of modernity to Muslim society, learn some <i>Angrezi</i>, toady out some preferential treatment from the Brits.....<b> so that they (at least the upper class Muslims) don't get left behind too far</b>.
----------------
BTW,
The character played by AB is a Pathan.... and apparently their types are all around the heartland as Chota and Bada Nawabs. This points to that period in History when Afghan freebooters and soldiers-of-fortune entered India and took advantage of the twilight of the Islamic and Hindu powers. (IIRC our Nawab of Pataudi's ancestor came to India as a mercenary for the Nawab of Bhopal). This is another aspect of the decay in India during those times....<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Quote Kakkaji
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The 'social decay' of the Delhi-Awadh heartland in that time (after Aurangzeb) is well-known and personified by <b>Mohammad Shah 'Rangeela'</b> and Wazid Ali Shah. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahhh yes.... if you think Urmila went too naughty in her Rangeela, you haven't met THIS guy. A hilarious, yet pathetic (mebbe exaggerated) picture is given in Khushwant Singh's "Delhi" :oops:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ramana replied:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->So Kakkaji and AnandK, How much of the Shia power was swept away from the heartland of Northern India in the British respons? I think this led to the rise of the Sunni hardliners in that area post 1857. Maybe in another thread?
BTW one comment I heard was that this version lacked substance when compared to the older version.
There was a desire to present the Mallika e- Jahan in Nawabi grab for the sake of the pure ones across the border to let them know what was missed when they chose to go away. Please look for images in IRoT of this film to get my drift.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ramana wrote
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Has anyone seen the new Umrao Jaan and saw the strains of social decay in Islamic heartland in India, that led to the revival in post 1857 society?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kakkaji wrote
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->ramana:
The 'social decay' of the Delhi-Awadh heartland in that time (after Aurangzeb) is well-known and personified by Mohammad Shah 'Rangeela' and Wazid Ali Shah. It was one reason why many Indians helped the British during 1857 because they did not want to bring back the Mughal+Awadh rule.
Post 1857, when the 'old' order had been brutally and finally put down by the British, the environment became conducive for social reformers to rise from among the new english-educated elite like Raja Rammohan Roy who could confront the social evils that pervaded Hindu society. Even among the Muslims, Sir Syed Ahmed brought about a new, english-educated elite which could not have been possible before the events of 1857.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AnandK wrote
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The "Mohammedan Revival" following 1857 Revolt sought a <b>return</b> to those very "good old days" of Nawabdoms, fawning European lobbyists and salesmen, Tawaifs and Nautch Girls, pan, pulao..... and the occasional old Mullah/Sufi to add some cool "spirituality" to life. IIRC right here in BRF, Singha(?) said something about the RAPE/Indian Islamist's nostalgia for the "Umrao Jaan" and "Pakeezah" lifestyle.
The original Kotha culture vanished because there were no more Nawabs and assorted Pooh-Bah's to patronize these institutions. The Angrez masters, being the true "Wham! Bam! Righto, Ma'am!" British they were, preferred discreet little Zenanas while the lesser officers/subalterns/sepoys were presented with whole Red-Light *Districts* like Kamathipura, G.B.Road, Gandha Gully etc. They had no time for the elaborate rituals, (the usually educated and cultured... and hence too expensive) Tawaifs and their performing arts, the splendor of the Kotha or the social etiquettes the Tawaifs were supposed to teach the adolescent members of Nobility.
Dalrymple's City of Jinns talk about some old Ashraf types's nostalgia for the Kothas..... some maintain these Kothas weren't "just" brothels, but finishing schools, extended arts appreciation tours and what not! <!--emo&:lol:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='laugh.gif' /><!--endemo--> Well, there might be an amount of truth in this too... given Ulema's stance on Music and Dance and of course, <i>Zina</i>. Can't learn all that stuff in a "vetted" Mullah Fakruddin's Madrassa for Young Men [estb. 606 H.E.], eh? Kothas which functioned under direct patronage of the high and mighty, and hence out of Shariyat jurisdiction and other such trifles could provide that....
The point is, loss of this grand lifestyle was a major blow to H&D. AFAIK, the "debauchery" was not seen as any virtue by the beards (and even the reformist beards), but they didn't hold this singularly responsible for loss of power. There were no serious efforts to teach the Moimeen about the real stuff; the virtues of Emancipation, a little Victorian Morality, Monogamy, Science etc..... and they didn't rail against all those Medieval Islamic *institutions* as such. What the Syed Ahmad Khan types did was to infuse a wee little bit of modernity to Muslim society, learn some <i>Angrezi</i>, toady out some preferential treatment from the Brits.....<b> so that they (at least the upper class Muslims) don't get left behind too far</b>.
----------------
BTW,
The character played by AB is a Pathan.... and apparently their types are all around the heartland as Chota and Bada Nawabs. This points to that period in History when Afghan freebooters and soldiers-of-fortune entered India and took advantage of the twilight of the Islamic and Hindu powers. (IIRC our Nawab of Pataudi's ancestor came to India as a mercenary for the Nawab of Bhopal). This is another aspect of the decay in India during those times....<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Quote Kakkaji
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The 'social decay' of the Delhi-Awadh heartland in that time (after Aurangzeb) is well-known and personified by <b>Mohammad Shah 'Rangeela'</b> and Wazid Ali Shah. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahhh yes.... if you think Urmila went too naughty in her Rangeela, you haven't met THIS guy. A hilarious, yet pathetic (mebbe exaggerated) picture is given in Khushwant Singh's "Delhi" :oops:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ramana replied:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->So Kakkaji and AnandK, How much of the Shia power was swept away from the heartland of Northern India in the British respons? I think this led to the rise of the Sunni hardliners in that area post 1857. Maybe in another thread?
BTW one comment I heard was that this version lacked substance when compared to the older version.
There was a desire to present the Mallika e- Jahan in Nawabi grab for the sake of the pure ones across the border to let them know what was missed when they chose to go away. Please look for images in IRoT of this film to get my drift.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->