Noo relation to the sudden spate of petitions etc. I presume...
***********************************************************************
One must congratulate "Bodhi" whose posts I am supposed to have "not responded to" (perhaps because no postor of that name posted here before???) for the faithful generation of the science to match the policy decisions.
Now for some of the points above.
1. So we are asked to believe that the part of the archipelago/sandbank/Oldest ManMadeStructure that is between the Mainland and Pamban, is NOT part of the Ramar Sethu. It is NOT important to the Cultural History and Tradition and everything else of India. In other words, did Ramar and the entire Vanara Sena simply fly over, or did they ride across on the Dhanushkodi Passenger Train like I used to do? My mother always used to show us those huge boulder lying under the Pamban bridge and tell us the legends, and I used to wonder at the biceps on those heroic Vanaras who tossed them there.
No doubt, thank you, but have you watched the TV epic Ramayana? <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tongue.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Since Shri Ramar did not even have shoes, having left his shoes in Ayodhya as Bodhi so accurately points out, I do postulate that the devoted Vanara Sena would have bridged the first mile, before bridging the next 22 miles beyond. I know that science or engineering are not supposed to have anything to do with the miraculous Bridge, but to mere mortals, would it not make sense to make THAT land bridge first so that the boulders could be carried across by the squirrels, not to mention the Vanara Sena, much easier than taking them across in boats or swimming with them???
<i>So there goes any iota of legitimacy behind this obstruction campaign. "Bodhi" is willing to let that FIRST MILE of the Ramar Sethu - that FIRST MILE that was so heroically built so long ago, be cut, and lie cut, under the Pamban bridge, but is all cut up, no pun intended, about the proposed channel a dozen miles out in the sea.</i>
*******************************************************
OK, now that we have disposed of that, let's look at the other points raised so far:
1.
Ah! Perhaps from misreading some of those shrill Petitions etc. above, starting from the one in the first post? A few days before that, the same author sent around a shrill demand for the Supreme Court to stop the project.
So now I am told that there is no objection to the Canal, just to its precise alignment to "not destroy the Ramar Sethu". That is indeed an improvement, I am happy to note.
<b><i>What! And risk that Tsunami which is due to arrive in 2064??? Won't it destroy Kerala now any more? </i></b> Shocking! Shocking!
2.
We are now told that the real risk is of setting a precedent. IOW, Sri Lanka MIGHT take advantage and cut a channel on THEIR side. <b><i>Not now, but maybe 100 years from now.</i> </b>
Is this reason enough to obstruct a project that is vital to Indian security? Whose side are these people on?
3.
Er... when there is a cyclone, the rail system tends to be affected, you see, for several miles inland. In 1965, that bridge was destroyed, and lay destroyed for quite some time, probably a few years. The bridge was in the water, so the channel was also blocked. A LOT of help that is in getting emergency help through to the stranded, starving people.
But again, that would have taken all of a moment's thought. Would that be too much to spend for someone so concerned about the children of India??
4.
I certainly don't claim to be objective - I don't give a flip about the Suez Canal or Panama Canal. But I DO think it is important for Indians to be able to travel in a continuous path along the Indian coastline without having to take a 350 mile detour through deep water, open ocean, around an often-hostile island. I suppose the patriots here (who, by the way, "certainly don't oppose the Canal" <!--emo&:whistle--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/whistle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='whistle.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) do not see that as a priority, being so objective??
My point was whether the canal is "essential" or not. If Indians don't need this canal, and should have to "spend a few more days" going around Sri Lanka to go from Toothukuti to Chennai, why shouldn't ocean-going vessels, aircraft carriers etc, not have to go around Africa or South America? Its only a few more days, and it's not even their own country?
5. Bodhi and Husky go to great pains to argue that other religious monuments / great traditional structures do not come with the stipulation that you should not poo on them, or step on them or lay roads through them.
But WHERE did Shri Ramar say that future generations should be idle, and not do esssential engineering, when his own Vanara Sena did not hesitate to undertake a massive, 30-mile causeway across a stormy sea, to go rescue Shri Sita?
IOW, it was OK for the Indian Army of 500,000,000,000,000 years or whatever ago, to undertake such a mammoth man-made project in the ocean, without Environmental Impact Studies or consideration of the 60-year tsunami cycle, BUT.... today's Indian Navy must take its ships around Sri Lanka to go from Chennai to Kochi??? If the LTTE kidnaps Indian fishermen, today's Indian armed forces cannot go after them?
Also, that it is fine for the FIRST part of the Sethu to be destroyed, and have tall sailboats pass right across at Pamban - BUT the part in the middle of the Palk Strait is sacred, not to be touched except by sharks?
<b><i>WHAT epic says this?</i></b> Where is the authority for the RSS or Shri Kalyanaraman (assuming these are different thinking entities..) to declare that the Ramar bridge should be neglected in any future engineering project, and left sunken and useless under the Palk Strait? Did Ramar appear in a dream, perhaps? Or is this in the Ramayana?
Or isn't this sheer shunakah-in-goshala obstructionism and backwardness?
*****************************************************************
So let's summarize where we stand:
1. The RSS (and Shri Kalyan / Bodhi) do NOT oppose the construction of the SethuSamudram Canal.
2. Their opposition is to the precise present design. They have proposed 5 alternatives, but not bothered to submit a full System Design Study on any of them. They feel that whatever System Studies done todate by competent authorities should be tossed out, and the project delayed indefinitely, until one of these un-studies "alternative" is accepted (at which time other obstructions will presumably be devised..)
3. Shri Bodhi / Kalyan apparently would like us to forget about his <b><i>Tsunami Is Coming! Only 57 more years! </i></b>shrill hype that was in the post that led me to start this thread. It violates the laws of conservation of mass and momentum, to say the least. Also, the Recommended Course there - to direct the northern mouth of the SSC to the West, towards the coast, would guarantee that the backwashed debris from any tsunami (or even a cyclone) would choke up the Canal, rendering it useless when it is most needed. IOW, this is a dumb suggestion.
A small snippet of the author Kalyanaraman's understanding of Dr. Murthy's recommendation, that he endorsed fully, is seen in the following. Here is the original comment from Murthy, as reported from his interview:
Here is Kalyanaraman's re-statement of that (see first post of this thread):
Ah! An "explanation" that comes with such clear understanding of what Murthy was recommending!
The ancient saying about the Ramayana, invariant across all Indian languages, comes to mind:
Or the Malayalam saying, which translates to:
4. There is absolutely no evidence of corruption in this project, contrary to Shri Kalyan's claim of "60% bribes" made in one of his first posts before he morphed into "Bodhi". Pressed on this claim he revealed that "60% is the going rate". IOW, that WOULD HAVE BEEN THE EXPECTED BRIBE IF his preferred clients had been the ones to start this project.
5. The project has been in planning and system studies for decades; however, THE ONLY PROGRESS IN THE SIX YEARS OF NDA RULE was some "NEERI" study, which PROVED THE ECONOMIC FEASIBILITY and minimum potential of the project. SINCE 2004, the project has moved ahead, according to the plans.
6. There has been no redirection of the plan since the 2004 tsunami, and this is cited as one of the major criticisms.
However, Indian Remote Sensing satellite images confirm the earlier NASA images, and show that the Ramar Sethu sandbanks/ Coral Reefs / ManMade Structure did not suffer in any visible manner during the tsunami, although the sea bottom was severely scoured in regions where the tsunami DID come through. IOW, this region was sheltered from the tsunami, being in the lees of Sri Lanka, as should be obvious. This debunks the objections based on tsunami dangers etc.
7. In summary, the main objection appears to be that the project is <b>actually being moved</b> under the UPA government, whereas the previous government failed miserably to make useful progress in six years. Whatever I may think about this or previous governments, the fact is that they were elected by the voters of India. So that IS the government of the time, and as long as that is the case, the present objections stink of partisan politicking. The opponents do NOT have a well-studied, well-documented, objective plan for the project - instead they have five half-baked "alternatives". Their rantings about the tsunami are not only bogus as in violating basic laws of physics, the conclusions are demonstrably disastrous if implemented and a tsunami ever does come through there from the expected direction.
In short, the Opposition's objections are not about the interests of the PEOPLE of India, but the interests of certain political entities.
Q.E.D.
My thanks to Kalyan97 / Bodhi etc. for the clear presentations that lead unerringly to this conclusion. Yes, I think it is time to lock the thread if the admins want to do so - I have satisfied my curioisity about this whole ruccus.
Quote:Hands off Ramar bridge: RSS
NT Bureau
Chennai, Mar 12:
The national council of the RSS has warned the Central government that it should be ready to face the consequences, if it destroyed the Ramar bridge in the Palk straits for the construction of Sethu samudram project.
On the concluding day of the three day Akhil Bhartiya Prathinidi Sabha (ABPS) � the national council meet at Lucknow, the RSS said by going ahead with the destruction of Ramar bridge, the government trampled upon the sentiments of crores of Hindus.
'The project smacks of a sinister design to destroy Bharat's age old heritage and world's most ancient man made structure much older than the pyramids of Egypt (4500 years) and the Great wall of China (2600 years),' a resolution passed at the end of the meet said and wanted to know why the government should not go ahead with alternative routes that do not destroy the Rama Sethu bridge.
The objections raised by the environmentalists and the livelihood concerns of thousands of fishermen were brushed aside and experts from the marine archaeology were not consulted.
'The ABPS wishes to remind all that Taj Mahal and Kutub Minar were saved from destruction. While these were only a few hundred years old, the Ramar bridge's historical antiquity goest back to several millennia.'
Even the British gazette records mention that people used to cross the sea over that bridge till 15th century. NASA images also show a 30km long chain of unique sand shoals.
'There is also a strong local tradition irrespective of religion that attaches great sacredness to the Rama Sethu bridge. The government should respect the senitiments of the people and protect it as a heritage site under UNESCO mandate.' Several other resolutions were also passed at the end of the three day national council meeting.
***********************************************************************
One must congratulate "Bodhi" whose posts I am supposed to have "not responded to" (perhaps because no postor of that name posted here before???) for the faithful generation of the science to match the policy decisions.
Now for some of the points above.
Quote:First of all, check your data! Ramar Setu does NOT even start at Pamban!!!
1. So we are asked to believe that the part of the archipelago/sandbank/Oldest ManMadeStructure that is between the Mainland and Pamban, is NOT part of the Ramar Sethu. It is NOT important to the Cultural History and Tradition and everything else of India. In other words, did Ramar and the entire Vanara Sena simply fly over, or did they ride across on the Dhanushkodi Passenger Train like I used to do? My mother always used to show us those huge boulder lying under the Pamban bridge and tell us the legends, and I used to wonder at the biceps on those heroic Vanaras who tossed them there.
Quote:you have no basic understanding of even the epic called Ramayana.
Sri Ram lived barefooted all through his years during the vanavasa, as was befitting for vanavasi.
No doubt, thank you, but have you watched the TV epic Ramayana? <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tongue.gif' /><!--endemo--> Since Shri Ramar did not even have shoes, having left his shoes in Ayodhya as Bodhi so accurately points out, I do postulate that the devoted Vanara Sena would have bridged the first mile, before bridging the next 22 miles beyond. I know that science or engineering are not supposed to have anything to do with the miraculous Bridge, but to mere mortals, would it not make sense to make THAT land bridge first so that the boulders could be carried across by the squirrels, not to mention the Vanara Sena, much easier than taking them across in boats or swimming with them???
<i>So there goes any iota of legitimacy behind this obstruction campaign. "Bodhi" is willing to let that FIRST MILE of the Ramar Sethu - that FIRST MILE that was so heroically built so long ago, be cut, and lie cut, under the Pamban bridge, but is all cut up, no pun intended, about the proposed channel a dozen miles out in the sea.</i>
*******************************************************
OK, now that we have disposed of that, let's look at the other points raised so far:
1.
Quote:Also you are sounding as if anyone is opposing the creation of the canal itself!!!
Ah! Perhaps from misreading some of those shrill Petitions etc. above, starting from the one in the first post? A few days before that, the same author sent around a shrill demand for the Supreme Court to stop the project.
So now I am told that there is no objection to the Canal, just to its precise alignment to "not destroy the Ramar Sethu". That is indeed an improvement, I am happy to note.
<b><i>What! And risk that Tsunami which is due to arrive in 2064??? Won't it destroy Kerala now any more? </i></b> Shocking! Shocking!
2.
Quote:You would create a precedence for Sri Lanka to also do something like this if they liked on their side of the water, to Ramar Bridge. Today Srilanka does not have such a need or resources, but who knows after 100 years? 200 years - the way Christos are recolonizing Sri Lanka?
We are now told that the real risk is of setting a precedent. IOW, Sri Lanka MIGHT take advantage and cut a channel on THEIR side. <b><i>Not now, but maybe 100 years from now.</i> </b>
Is this reason enough to obstruct a project that is vital to Indian security? Whose side are these people on?
3.
Quote:Railway brigde exists since 1911, and is collapsible which allows ships of smaller size to pass beneath it. (There goes one NEED of relief traffic reaching the dying children on east coast from the west coast, that you mentioned earlier, but did not respond to my post).
Er... when there is a cyclone, the rail system tends to be affected, you see, for several miles inland. In 1965, that bridge was destroyed, and lay destroyed for quite some time, probably a few years. The bridge was in the water, so the channel was also blocked. A LOT of help that is in getting emergency help through to the stranded, starving people.
But again, that would have taken all of a moment's thought. Would that be too much to spend for someone so concerned about the children of India??
4.
Quote:Suez Canal saves the circumnavigation of the entire continent of Africa and Panama Canal saves that of South America. Setu Sagar Canal will save the shipping distance of about 350 miles, and a few hours of travel. Very comparable! Hats off to your objectivity!
I certainly don't claim to be objective - I don't give a flip about the Suez Canal or Panama Canal. But I DO think it is important for Indians to be able to travel in a continuous path along the Indian coastline without having to take a 350 mile detour through deep water, open ocean, around an often-hostile island. I suppose the patriots here (who, by the way, "certainly don't oppose the Canal" <!--emo&:whistle--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/whistle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='whistle.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) do not see that as a priority, being so objective??
My point was whether the canal is "essential" or not. If Indians don't need this canal, and should have to "spend a few more days" going around Sri Lanka to go from Toothukuti to Chennai, why shouldn't ocean-going vessels, aircraft carriers etc, not have to go around Africa or South America? Its only a few more days, and it's not even their own country?
5. Bodhi and Husky go to great pains to argue that other religious monuments / great traditional structures do not come with the stipulation that you should not poo on them, or step on them or lay roads through them.
But WHERE did Shri Ramar say that future generations should be idle, and not do esssential engineering, when his own Vanara Sena did not hesitate to undertake a massive, 30-mile causeway across a stormy sea, to go rescue Shri Sita?
IOW, it was OK for the Indian Army of 500,000,000,000,000 years or whatever ago, to undertake such a mammoth man-made project in the ocean, without Environmental Impact Studies or consideration of the 60-year tsunami cycle, BUT.... today's Indian Navy must take its ships around Sri Lanka to go from Chennai to Kochi??? If the LTTE kidnaps Indian fishermen, today's Indian armed forces cannot go after them?
Also, that it is fine for the FIRST part of the Sethu to be destroyed, and have tall sailboats pass right across at Pamban - BUT the part in the middle of the Palk Strait is sacred, not to be touched except by sharks?
<b><i>WHAT epic says this?</i></b> Where is the authority for the RSS or Shri Kalyanaraman (assuming these are different thinking entities..) to declare that the Ramar bridge should be neglected in any future engineering project, and left sunken and useless under the Palk Strait? Did Ramar appear in a dream, perhaps? Or is this in the Ramayana?
Or isn't this sheer shunakah-in-goshala obstructionism and backwardness?
*****************************************************************
So let's summarize where we stand:
1. The RSS (and Shri Kalyan / Bodhi) do NOT oppose the construction of the SethuSamudram Canal.
2. Their opposition is to the precise present design. They have proposed 5 alternatives, but not bothered to submit a full System Design Study on any of them. They feel that whatever System Studies done todate by competent authorities should be tossed out, and the project delayed indefinitely, until one of these un-studies "alternative" is accepted (at which time other obstructions will presumably be devised..)
3. Shri Bodhi / Kalyan apparently would like us to forget about his <b><i>Tsunami Is Coming! Only 57 more years! </i></b>shrill hype that was in the post that led me to start this thread. It violates the laws of conservation of mass and momentum, to say the least. Also, the Recommended Course there - to direct the northern mouth of the SSC to the West, towards the coast, would guarantee that the backwashed debris from any tsunami (or even a cyclone) would choke up the Canal, rendering it useless when it is most needed. IOW, this is a dumb suggestion.
A small snippet of the author Kalyanaraman's understanding of Dr. Murthy's recommendation, that he endorsed fully, is seen in the following. Here is the original comment from Murthy, as reported from his interview:
Quote:"A re-orientation of the eastern entrance of the channel <b>towards the northwest </b>will fix the tsunami problem," he added.
Here is Kalyanaraman's re-statement of that (see first post of this thread):
Quote:The most devastating comment on the project comes from Dr. Tad S. Murthy: "I like this (Setusamudram) project but there is a flaw. The entrance to the channel should be re-oriented <b>towards the eastern side. </b>Otherwise, there is a chance that it may create a deepwater route for another devastating tsunami. This may cause huge destruction in Kerala." Let me explain why the warning should be taken seriously.
Ah! An "explanation" that comes with such clear understanding of what Murthy was recommending!
The ancient saying about the Ramayana, invariant across all Indian languages, comes to mind:
Quote: Saara Ramayan patha. Phir poocha: "Seeth ko Rama kaun thi?"
Or the Malayalam saying, which translates to:
Quote: Let me explain what antimony is. I know it. It looks white like turmeric powder
4. There is absolutely no evidence of corruption in this project, contrary to Shri Kalyan's claim of "60% bribes" made in one of his first posts before he morphed into "Bodhi". Pressed on this claim he revealed that "60% is the going rate". IOW, that WOULD HAVE BEEN THE EXPECTED BRIBE IF his preferred clients had been the ones to start this project.
5. The project has been in planning and system studies for decades; however, THE ONLY PROGRESS IN THE SIX YEARS OF NDA RULE was some "NEERI" study, which PROVED THE ECONOMIC FEASIBILITY and minimum potential of the project. SINCE 2004, the project has moved ahead, according to the plans.
6. There has been no redirection of the plan since the 2004 tsunami, and this is cited as one of the major criticisms.
However, Indian Remote Sensing satellite images confirm the earlier NASA images, and show that the Ramar Sethu sandbanks/ Coral Reefs / ManMade Structure did not suffer in any visible manner during the tsunami, although the sea bottom was severely scoured in regions where the tsunami DID come through. IOW, this region was sheltered from the tsunami, being in the lees of Sri Lanka, as should be obvious. This debunks the objections based on tsunami dangers etc.
7. In summary, the main objection appears to be that the project is <b>actually being moved</b> under the UPA government, whereas the previous government failed miserably to make useful progress in six years. Whatever I may think about this or previous governments, the fact is that they were elected by the voters of India. So that IS the government of the time, and as long as that is the case, the present objections stink of partisan politicking. The opponents do NOT have a well-studied, well-documented, objective plan for the project - instead they have five half-baked "alternatives". Their rantings about the tsunami are not only bogus as in violating basic laws of physics, the conclusions are demonstrably disastrous if implemented and a tsunami ever does come through there from the expected direction.
In short, the Opposition's objections are not about the interests of the PEOPLE of India, but the interests of certain political entities.
Q.E.D.
My thanks to Kalyan97 / Bodhi etc. for the clear presentations that lead unerringly to this conclusion. Yes, I think it is time to lock the thread if the admins want to do so - I have satisfied my curioisity about this whole ruccus.