04-03-2007, 05:29 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't see why the Devas have to now be re-interpreted as being either the one (faculty, phenomenon) or the other (Gods), when the Vedas make it rather clear that they are both: the Gods presiding over various things in the world as well as the embodiment of those things.
It certainly doesn't make the Vedas any less scientific.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it certainly does not make them less scientific. We need to differentiate between Indian polytheism and pantheism and Western polytheism and pantheism(such as Odinism)
If we overlap the two, we get really twisted interpretations. Such as Doniger's interpretation of Rig Veda, who cannot seem to understand that the Devas are symbolic or presiding forces over natural phenomena. She uses an odinist interpretation, where each god is a person in heaven and attributes acts of incest, war and homosexuality to the gods.
I read her translation a long time ago in the library. She interpreted a verse describing the birth of Indra as being an act of incest. Indra is born, murders his mother, and is afraid of his father(something like this, my memory is vague of this obscene freudian interpretation)
This marks the inability of Western scholars to understand how one Deva comes out the other. How Agni can come from Surya etc.
So we shouldn't use the same interpretation. Deva means, if I understand correctly shining(please correct me if I'm wrong). This conveys a sense of energy, not some deity-being controlling nature from heaven(as in Odinism)
If we read the Rig Veda's creation verse. The entire universe exitsts in a state beyond existence and non-existence(Avyaktam Prakriti) The supreme energy(Purush) that exists, then causes nature to come into being(Prakriti in a differentiated state) It is then the Devas come into being. Thus the Devas are part of the phenomenal universe. If we look at the chronology of their birth:
The first Deva is Hiryangarbh(which means the cosmic or golden wom) and the second-born is Virat(which means universe/macrocosm), which then expands and from Virat is born Brahma(self-expanding) and from Brahma we got Brahmanda(self-expanding in the shape of the egg) which is also a modern term for solar system.
This is basically the big-bang theory, and each Deva represents a phenomena. Hiryangarbh is the primeval fireball; Virat is the expanding universe; Brahma is the galaxy; Brahmanda is a solar system. Brahman(is all of existence, spaceless and timeless)
In the Purush Sukta(which illterate westerners have taken to mean "the sacrifice of man" and put forward an argument that the Vedic risis performed human sacrifice) we learn how the cosmic spirit(Purush) divides himself and forms the universe, devas, planets, plants, animals, humans, socities. In a sense the entire universe and everything within is is imbued with his spirit and is sacred. Therefore the governing forces of the universe(Devas) are in a sense living intelligence, because they are a manifestation of one aspect of the supreme soul.
Surya is the manifestation of the life-sustaining force; the dispeller of darkness; the upholder of our solar system; the brightness of the intellect. Therefore by deifying the Sun, we are symbolically worshipping that supreme soul, that is manifest as the Sun.
In that sense Santana Dharma is Pantheistic, but not Polytheistic. As we only recognise one supreme soul, and everything else as a manifestation of it.
Therefore in light of the above, there are ground to reinterpret the Devas in the Vedas. To define each according to it's etymology, to ascertain its role and its principle. The beauty of Sanskrit allows us to do that, as we know each word is formed of parts, and its meaning can be arrived by studying the parts.
I loved this Bodhi:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Then GurutvakarshaNa may be more accurately understood like this. Guru does not only mean master, but other things too. 'Gu' means darkness, 'ru' means removing, 'tva' is 'ness', 'karsh' is pulling. GurutvakarshaNa means 'the pull by the one that is remover of the darkness'. In more basic sense 'guru' means heavy too. so gurutvakarshaNa may mean 'attraction because of the virtue of heaviness'. Very interesting/<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This shows that not only is meaning being produced by just suffix and prefix, but by individual sounds - phonemes. I did not understand why Guru means heavy though? Is that denotative or connotative?
I always wanted to know the meaning of these Sanskrit words, will you help me translate them using the same analytical technique. These are words used by Western interpreters to put forward that Vedic Risi's performed cow, horse and human sacrifice:
Gomedha
Ashwamedha
Purushmedha
I have more words, but they would be inappropriate for this thread. I'll post them in the Sanskrit thread.
It certainly doesn't make the Vedas any less scientific.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it certainly does not make them less scientific. We need to differentiate between Indian polytheism and pantheism and Western polytheism and pantheism(such as Odinism)
If we overlap the two, we get really twisted interpretations. Such as Doniger's interpretation of Rig Veda, who cannot seem to understand that the Devas are symbolic or presiding forces over natural phenomena. She uses an odinist interpretation, where each god is a person in heaven and attributes acts of incest, war and homosexuality to the gods.
I read her translation a long time ago in the library. She interpreted a verse describing the birth of Indra as being an act of incest. Indra is born, murders his mother, and is afraid of his father(something like this, my memory is vague of this obscene freudian interpretation)
This marks the inability of Western scholars to understand how one Deva comes out the other. How Agni can come from Surya etc.
So we shouldn't use the same interpretation. Deva means, if I understand correctly shining(please correct me if I'm wrong). This conveys a sense of energy, not some deity-being controlling nature from heaven(as in Odinism)
If we read the Rig Veda's creation verse. The entire universe exitsts in a state beyond existence and non-existence(Avyaktam Prakriti) The supreme energy(Purush) that exists, then causes nature to come into being(Prakriti in a differentiated state) It is then the Devas come into being. Thus the Devas are part of the phenomenal universe. If we look at the chronology of their birth:
The first Deva is Hiryangarbh(which means the cosmic or golden wom) and the second-born is Virat(which means universe/macrocosm), which then expands and from Virat is born Brahma(self-expanding) and from Brahma we got Brahmanda(self-expanding in the shape of the egg) which is also a modern term for solar system.
This is basically the big-bang theory, and each Deva represents a phenomena. Hiryangarbh is the primeval fireball; Virat is the expanding universe; Brahma is the galaxy; Brahmanda is a solar system. Brahman(is all of existence, spaceless and timeless)
In the Purush Sukta(which illterate westerners have taken to mean "the sacrifice of man" and put forward an argument that the Vedic risis performed human sacrifice) we learn how the cosmic spirit(Purush) divides himself and forms the universe, devas, planets, plants, animals, humans, socities. In a sense the entire universe and everything within is is imbued with his spirit and is sacred. Therefore the governing forces of the universe(Devas) are in a sense living intelligence, because they are a manifestation of one aspect of the supreme soul.
Surya is the manifestation of the life-sustaining force; the dispeller of darkness; the upholder of our solar system; the brightness of the intellect. Therefore by deifying the Sun, we are symbolically worshipping that supreme soul, that is manifest as the Sun.
In that sense Santana Dharma is Pantheistic, but not Polytheistic. As we only recognise one supreme soul, and everything else as a manifestation of it.
Therefore in light of the above, there are ground to reinterpret the Devas in the Vedas. To define each according to it's etymology, to ascertain its role and its principle. The beauty of Sanskrit allows us to do that, as we know each word is formed of parts, and its meaning can be arrived by studying the parts.
I loved this Bodhi:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Then GurutvakarshaNa may be more accurately understood like this. Guru does not only mean master, but other things too. 'Gu' means darkness, 'ru' means removing, 'tva' is 'ness', 'karsh' is pulling. GurutvakarshaNa means 'the pull by the one that is remover of the darkness'. In more basic sense 'guru' means heavy too. so gurutvakarshaNa may mean 'attraction because of the virtue of heaviness'. Very interesting/<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This shows that not only is meaning being produced by just suffix and prefix, but by individual sounds - phonemes. I did not understand why Guru means heavy though? Is that denotative or connotative?
I always wanted to know the meaning of these Sanskrit words, will you help me translate them using the same analytical technique. These are words used by Western interpreters to put forward that Vedic Risi's performed cow, horse and human sacrifice:
Gomedha
Ashwamedha
Purushmedha
I have more words, but they would be inappropriate for this thread. I'll post them in the Sanskrit thread.