04-12-2007, 11:55 PM
Greg wrote:<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->BTW Acharya, I was intrigued by your post sometime back claiming that Hindu caste system emerged as a british artifact. I was wondering if you would oblige me with a short clarification on what exactly you meant. Are you saying that caste-based segregation that was prominent during the Raj and later was NOT present before the British took power? What exactly is the Hindu narrative on this matter? I dont want to jump to conclusions based on common stereotypes about Hinduism although I noted that Sajan's views (supported by selective data) were in sync with that stereotype.
You obviously did not read mine or AnandK's posts on the issue.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Acharya is right the Caste system as we know it today emerged as a British artifact. No, it does not mean that caste - known as Jati based segregation was invented by the British but its codifications, limitation of movement, rigidification was a process that got nailed by the British.
Here is another startling view or hypothesis - were it not for the British, the caste system as we know it today, would likely be a non-issue and dead.
----------
SwamyG wrote:<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Acharya: My age does not even matter one paise to the discussion. You can laugh all you want. It further does not matter if I am old or newbie to this subject.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dont worry I am not laughing at you. There is no prepared list of books.
You have to roll up your sleeves and hit the book shelf.
Here is a partial list at http://voiceofdharma.com/books.html
Here is an example of book banning
http://voiceofdharma.org/books/ayodhya/ch12.htm
Quote:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In the same week when the Kar Seva was due, the speaker of the Uttar Pradesh Assembly, H.K. Srivastava, made a proposal to attack the problem of communal friction at what he apparently considered its roots. He wanted all press writing about the historical origins of temples and mosques to be banned. And it is true : the discussion of the origins of some mosques is fundamental to this whole issue. For, it reveals the actual workings of an ideology that, more than anything else, has caused countless violent confrontations between the religious communities.
The real target of this proposal was the book Hindu Temples : What Happened to Them (A Preliminary Survey) by Arun Shourie and others. In the same period, there has been a proposal in the Rajya Sabha by Congress MP Mrs. Aliya to get this book banned, in spite of the fact that about half the book had already legally been published in different papers. The police dropped by the printer and later the publisher to get a few copies for closer inspection.
The really hard part of the book is a list of some two thousand Muslim buildings that have been built on places of previous Hindu worship (and for which many more than two thousand temples have been demolished). In spite of the threat of a ban on raking up this discussion, on November 18 the U.P. daily Pioneer has published a review of this book, by Vimal Yogi Tiwari, which I reproduce here in full.
The book is a collection of articles written by Arun Shourie, dr. Harsh Narain, Jay Dubashi, Ram Swarup and Sita Ram Goel. It is perhaps the first endeavor on the part of scholars to dig from the graveyard of history the identity of some 2000 temples destroyed by the Muslim invaders and rulers. The book is not an exercise in rewriting history, but is an effort to present the facts and give a bird's eye view of the truth hitherto unknown. The book has as its subject matter not only the Ram temple at Ayodhya but nearly 2000 temples throughout the length and breadth of the country which met the same fate as that of Ayodhya, Mathura and Varanasi.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
----
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Greg wrote:
Acharya wrote:
SwamyG wrote:
Acharya: Is someone stopping anybody from publishing a book extolling the virtues of Hinduism or narrating the "Hindu narrative"?
Yes, It has been stopped from publishing at the school textbooks, universities and history depts for 60 years.
Laughing Obviously you are new to this. If I may How old are you?
@ Acharya
I think he meant publish it via an international book publisher and have it sold in the bookstores (or disseminated free with donated funds if possible). Other ways to spread the message would be via documentaries and movies. Indian movie industry is pretty big...
BTW Acharya, I was intrigued by your post sometime back claiming that Hindu caste system emerged as a british artifact. I was wondering if you would oblige me with a short clarification on what exactly you meant. Are you saying that caste-based segregation that was prominent during the Raj and later was NOT present before the British took power? What exactly is the Hindu narrative on this matter? I dont want to jump to conclusions based on common stereotypes about Hinduism although I noted that Sajan's views (supported by selective data) were in sync with that stereotype.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Either way there are books available. The marxist version of the history has been made dominant narrative by the Frankfurt groups of socialists in the 60s.
More important the ICHR and history dept have been dominated by the marxist historians for over 50 years now who have actively suppressed the Hindu narrative and created a media campaign against the nationalist history making it untouchable. So books available in the free markets are also held as 'communal' by the intellectual class.
Check out the dialogue here for caste
http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index....wtopic=937
http://www.britishempire.co.uk/article/castesystem.htm
http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index....topic=1679
http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index....topic=1302
http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index....topic=1659
If you read the Book by Dirk, You will start seeing Hindus in a new way.
Quote:<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->
Arnold, David. Police Power and Colonial Rule. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1986.
Asad, Talal.(ed.) Anthropology and the Colonial Encounter. New York: Humanities Press, 1973.
Barrier, N. Gerald. (ed.) The Census in British India. New Delhi: Manohar Publications. 1981.
Bayly, C. A. Rulers, Townsmen and Bazaars. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1983.
Biswas, P.C. The Ex-Criminal Tribes of Delhi State. Delhi: Hindustan Publishing House Corp, 1960. 153pp.
Bhowmick, P. K. Some Aspects of Indian Anthropology. Calcutta: Subarnarekha, 1980.
Bopegamage, A., P. V. Veeraraghavan Status Images in Changing India. Bombay: P. C. Manaktalas and Sons Private Ltd., 1967.
Buch, M. A. Rise and Growth of Indian Liberalism. Baroda: No publisher listed, Ph. D.thesis at the University of London in Political Science, 1938.
Chamberlain, M. E. Britain and India: The Interaction Between Two Peoples. Newton Abbot, Devon: David and Charles (Holdings) Ltd., 1974.
Cohn, B. S. The Development and Impact of British Administration in India. New Delhi: The Indian Institute of Public Administration, 1961.
Cohn, B. S. India: The Social Anthropology of a Civilization. Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey: Prentice-Hall, Inc., 1971.
Cohn, B.S. An Anthropologist Among the Historians. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1987.
Crane, Robert I. and N. Gerald Barrier. British Imperial Policy in India and Sri Lanka 1858-1912. New Delhi: Heritage Publishers, 1981.
Crooke, W. The Tribes and Castes of the North Western India. Vol., 2, 3 and 4. Delhi: Cosmo Publications, 1974.
Dalton, E. T. The Tribal History of Eastern India. Calcutta: Office of the Superintendent of Government Printing, 1872.
deGiustino, D. Conquest of the Mind. London: Croon Helm Ltd., 1975.
Dirks, Nicholas B. "Castes of Mind," Representations. 37, Winter 1992.
Dyson, K. K. A Various Universe. Delhi: Oxford University Press, 1978.
Fienberg, Stephen E. "A Brief History of Statistics in Three and One-Half Chapters," Historical Methods. Vol. 24, Number 3, Summer 1991.
Griffiths, P. The British Impact on India. London: Frank Cass and Co,. Ltd., 1952.
Guha, Ranajit (ed.). Subaltern Studies V. Delhi: Oxford University Press, 1987. 296pp.
Gupta, Anandswarup. The Police in British India 1861-1947. New Delhi: Concept Publishing Co., 1979.
Inden, Ronald. "Orientalist Constructions of India". Journal of Modern Asian Studies, 20, 3 (1986) pp. 401-446.
Inden, Ronald. Imagining India. Cambridge, Mass.: Basil Blackwell Ltd., 1990.
Kulkarni, V. B. British Statesmen in India. Bombay: Orient longmans Ltd., 1961.
Mackenzie, Donald A. Statistics in Britain 1865-1930. Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press, 1981.
Macmunn, George. The Underworld of India. London: Jarrolds Publishers, 1933.
Marshall, P. J. and Glyndwr Williams. The Great Map of Mankind. London: J. M. Dent and Son Ltd., 1982.
Nigam, Sanjay. "Disciplining and Policing the `criminals by birth' Part 2: The development of the disciplinary system, 1871-1900", The Indian Economic and Social History Review, 2, 1990.
Nigam, Sanjay. "The Making of a Colonial Stereotype-The Criminal Tribes and Castes of Northern India", The Indian Economic and Social History Review, 3, 1990.
Pant, Rashmi. "The cognitive status of caste in colonial ethnography: A Review of Some literature on the North West Provinces and Oudh," The Indian Economic and Social History n Review, 24, 2, 1987.
Porter, Theodore M. The Rise in Statistical Thinking 1820-1900. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1986.
Prakash, Gyan. "Writing Post-Orientalist Histories of the Third World: Perspectives from Indian Historiography". Comparative Study of Society and History, 32 1990.
Ray N. R.(ed.) Western Colonial Policy vol. 1 & 2. Calcutta: Institute of Historical Studies, 1981.
Risely, Herbert. The People of India. Ed. W. Crooke. Delhi: Oriental Books Reprint Corp. 1969. First edition, 1915.
Sharif, Ja`far. Islam In India. Ed. W. Crooke. Trans. G. A. Herklots. New Delhi: Oxford University Press, 1921.
Sinha, R. K. Risely, Herbert. Alienation Among Scheduled Castes. Delhi: Manas Publications, 1986.
Sommervell, D. C. The British Empire. London: Christophers, 1930.
Spurzheim, J. G. Phrenology. Boston: Marsh, Capen and Lyon, 1833.
Srivastava, Ratish.(ed.) Social Anthropology in India. New Delhi: Books Today, 1978.
Stokes, Eric. The Utilitarians and India. Delhi: Oxford University Press, 1989.
Yang, Anand A. (ed.) Crime and Criminality in British India. Tucson, Arizona: The University of Arizona Press, 1985.
Imperial Gazetteer of India. The Indian Empire, Vol., IV. New Delhi: Today and Tomorrow's Printers and Publishers, 1907.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You obviously did not read mine or AnandK's posts on the issue.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Acharya is right the Caste system as we know it today emerged as a British artifact. No, it does not mean that caste - known as Jati based segregation was invented by the British but its codifications, limitation of movement, rigidification was a process that got nailed by the British.
Here is another startling view or hypothesis - were it not for the British, the caste system as we know it today, would likely be a non-issue and dead.
----------
SwamyG wrote:<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Acharya: My age does not even matter one paise to the discussion. You can laugh all you want. It further does not matter if I am old or newbie to this subject.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dont worry I am not laughing at you. There is no prepared list of books.
You have to roll up your sleeves and hit the book shelf.
Here is a partial list at http://voiceofdharma.com/books.html
Here is an example of book banning
http://voiceofdharma.org/books/ayodhya/ch12.htm
Quote:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In the same week when the Kar Seva was due, the speaker of the Uttar Pradesh Assembly, H.K. Srivastava, made a proposal to attack the problem of communal friction at what he apparently considered its roots. He wanted all press writing about the historical origins of temples and mosques to be banned. And it is true : the discussion of the origins of some mosques is fundamental to this whole issue. For, it reveals the actual workings of an ideology that, more than anything else, has caused countless violent confrontations between the religious communities.
The real target of this proposal was the book Hindu Temples : What Happened to Them (A Preliminary Survey) by Arun Shourie and others. In the same period, there has been a proposal in the Rajya Sabha by Congress MP Mrs. Aliya to get this book banned, in spite of the fact that about half the book had already legally been published in different papers. The police dropped by the printer and later the publisher to get a few copies for closer inspection.
The really hard part of the book is a list of some two thousand Muslim buildings that have been built on places of previous Hindu worship (and for which many more than two thousand temples have been demolished). In spite of the threat of a ban on raking up this discussion, on November 18 the U.P. daily Pioneer has published a review of this book, by Vimal Yogi Tiwari, which I reproduce here in full.
The book is a collection of articles written by Arun Shourie, dr. Harsh Narain, Jay Dubashi, Ram Swarup and Sita Ram Goel. It is perhaps the first endeavor on the part of scholars to dig from the graveyard of history the identity of some 2000 temples destroyed by the Muslim invaders and rulers. The book is not an exercise in rewriting history, but is an effort to present the facts and give a bird's eye view of the truth hitherto unknown. The book has as its subject matter not only the Ram temple at Ayodhya but nearly 2000 temples throughout the length and breadth of the country which met the same fate as that of Ayodhya, Mathura and Varanasi.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
----
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Greg wrote:
Acharya wrote:
SwamyG wrote:
Acharya: Is someone stopping anybody from publishing a book extolling the virtues of Hinduism or narrating the "Hindu narrative"?
Yes, It has been stopped from publishing at the school textbooks, universities and history depts for 60 years.
Laughing Obviously you are new to this. If I may How old are you?
@ Acharya
I think he meant publish it via an international book publisher and have it sold in the bookstores (or disseminated free with donated funds if possible). Other ways to spread the message would be via documentaries and movies. Indian movie industry is pretty big...
BTW Acharya, I was intrigued by your post sometime back claiming that Hindu caste system emerged as a british artifact. I was wondering if you would oblige me with a short clarification on what exactly you meant. Are you saying that caste-based segregation that was prominent during the Raj and later was NOT present before the British took power? What exactly is the Hindu narrative on this matter? I dont want to jump to conclusions based on common stereotypes about Hinduism although I noted that Sajan's views (supported by selective data) were in sync with that stereotype.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Either way there are books available. The marxist version of the history has been made dominant narrative by the Frankfurt groups of socialists in the 60s.
More important the ICHR and history dept have been dominated by the marxist historians for over 50 years now who have actively suppressed the Hindu narrative and created a media campaign against the nationalist history making it untouchable. So books available in the free markets are also held as 'communal' by the intellectual class.
Check out the dialogue here for caste
http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index....wtopic=937
http://www.britishempire.co.uk/article/castesystem.htm
http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index....topic=1679
http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index....topic=1302
http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index....topic=1659
If you read the Book by Dirk, You will start seeing Hindus in a new way.
Quote:<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->
Arnold, David. Police Power and Colonial Rule. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1986.
Asad, Talal.(ed.) Anthropology and the Colonial Encounter. New York: Humanities Press, 1973.
Barrier, N. Gerald. (ed.) The Census in British India. New Delhi: Manohar Publications. 1981.
Bayly, C. A. Rulers, Townsmen and Bazaars. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1983.
Biswas, P.C. The Ex-Criminal Tribes of Delhi State. Delhi: Hindustan Publishing House Corp, 1960. 153pp.
Bhowmick, P. K. Some Aspects of Indian Anthropology. Calcutta: Subarnarekha, 1980.
Bopegamage, A., P. V. Veeraraghavan Status Images in Changing India. Bombay: P. C. Manaktalas and Sons Private Ltd., 1967.
Buch, M. A. Rise and Growth of Indian Liberalism. Baroda: No publisher listed, Ph. D.thesis at the University of London in Political Science, 1938.
Chamberlain, M. E. Britain and India: The Interaction Between Two Peoples. Newton Abbot, Devon: David and Charles (Holdings) Ltd., 1974.
Cohn, B. S. The Development and Impact of British Administration in India. New Delhi: The Indian Institute of Public Administration, 1961.
Cohn, B. S. India: The Social Anthropology of a Civilization. Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey: Prentice-Hall, Inc., 1971.
Cohn, B.S. An Anthropologist Among the Historians. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1987.
Crane, Robert I. and N. Gerald Barrier. British Imperial Policy in India and Sri Lanka 1858-1912. New Delhi: Heritage Publishers, 1981.
Crooke, W. The Tribes and Castes of the North Western India. Vol., 2, 3 and 4. Delhi: Cosmo Publications, 1974.
Dalton, E. T. The Tribal History of Eastern India. Calcutta: Office of the Superintendent of Government Printing, 1872.
deGiustino, D. Conquest of the Mind. London: Croon Helm Ltd., 1975.
Dirks, Nicholas B. "Castes of Mind," Representations. 37, Winter 1992.
Dyson, K. K. A Various Universe. Delhi: Oxford University Press, 1978.
Fienberg, Stephen E. "A Brief History of Statistics in Three and One-Half Chapters," Historical Methods. Vol. 24, Number 3, Summer 1991.
Griffiths, P. The British Impact on India. London: Frank Cass and Co,. Ltd., 1952.
Guha, Ranajit (ed.). Subaltern Studies V. Delhi: Oxford University Press, 1987. 296pp.
Gupta, Anandswarup. The Police in British India 1861-1947. New Delhi: Concept Publishing Co., 1979.
Inden, Ronald. "Orientalist Constructions of India". Journal of Modern Asian Studies, 20, 3 (1986) pp. 401-446.
Inden, Ronald. Imagining India. Cambridge, Mass.: Basil Blackwell Ltd., 1990.
Kulkarni, V. B. British Statesmen in India. Bombay: Orient longmans Ltd., 1961.
Mackenzie, Donald A. Statistics in Britain 1865-1930. Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press, 1981.
Macmunn, George. The Underworld of India. London: Jarrolds Publishers, 1933.
Marshall, P. J. and Glyndwr Williams. The Great Map of Mankind. London: J. M. Dent and Son Ltd., 1982.
Nigam, Sanjay. "Disciplining and Policing the `criminals by birth' Part 2: The development of the disciplinary system, 1871-1900", The Indian Economic and Social History Review, 2, 1990.
Nigam, Sanjay. "The Making of a Colonial Stereotype-The Criminal Tribes and Castes of Northern India", The Indian Economic and Social History Review, 3, 1990.
Pant, Rashmi. "The cognitive status of caste in colonial ethnography: A Review of Some literature on the North West Provinces and Oudh," The Indian Economic and Social History n Review, 24, 2, 1987.
Porter, Theodore M. The Rise in Statistical Thinking 1820-1900. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1986.
Prakash, Gyan. "Writing Post-Orientalist Histories of the Third World: Perspectives from Indian Historiography". Comparative Study of Society and History, 32 1990.
Ray N. R.(ed.) Western Colonial Policy vol. 1 & 2. Calcutta: Institute of Historical Studies, 1981.
Risely, Herbert. The People of India. Ed. W. Crooke. Delhi: Oriental Books Reprint Corp. 1969. First edition, 1915.
Sharif, Ja`far. Islam In India. Ed. W. Crooke. Trans. G. A. Herklots. New Delhi: Oxford University Press, 1921.
Sinha, R. K. Risely, Herbert. Alienation Among Scheduled Castes. Delhi: Manas Publications, 1986.
Sommervell, D. C. The British Empire. London: Christophers, 1930.
Spurzheim, J. G. Phrenology. Boston: Marsh, Capen and Lyon, 1833.
Srivastava, Ratish.(ed.) Social Anthropology in India. New Delhi: Books Today, 1978.
Stokes, Eric. The Utilitarians and India. Delhi: Oxford University Press, 1989.
Yang, Anand A. (ed.) Crime and Criminality in British India. Tucson, Arizona: The University of Arizona Press, 1985.
Imperial Gazetteer of India. The Indian Empire, Vol., IV. New Delhi: Today and Tomorrow's Printers and Publishers, 1907.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->