04-20-2007, 08:51 AM
I am cross posting some thoughts I had in the conflicting narratives thread to start a new topic. I leave it to forum leaders to decide its fate.
As part of a discussion I was having there - it seems to me that organized and forced conversions basically amount to sedition.
Sedition is defined (in an online dictionary) as
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> The raising of commotion in a state, not amounting to
   insurrection; conduct tending to treason, but without an
   overt act; excitement of discontent against the
   government, or of resistance to lawful authority.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason I say this is based on the discussion cross posted
<!--QuoteBegin-saik+Apr 19 2007, 09:33 PM-->QUOTE(saik @ Apr 19 2007, 09:33 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->What Hinduism says, is correct about the concept of following "any thing/person" as God, as long on realizes that it does not make difference.. but inclusion of Allah and Jesus means, the concept fails in its premise.
These western religion (xitian, muslim etc) followers does not accept Hindu ways.. hence, the acceptance of Hindu concepts is a problem for these folks. If that is the case, then it is required to make EJ proof, that we should not include Allah and Jesus from the texts of making all these Gods are okay to be followed.
I say, NO. If you are following Hinduism, then its NOT OK to follow Jesus or Allah, as they don't subscribe to Hindu way of living.
Hence, lets get out of this mentality of making the "hindu concept for all" theories, and rather stick to SD purely. The moment Jesus and Allah-ism enters, SDism is trashed.. they are totally opposite to understandings and realizations. Why include Jesus and Allah.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK these are interesting observations, but to me your observations raise more prickly questions.
If the universal philosophy of the Hindu dharma cannot accommodate two more "Gods" Allah and Jehovah, how is the philosophy "universal" as claimed. It is just another viewpoint like the viewpoint held by Allah/Yahweh followers?
If we were to argue that Allah/Jehovah are not Gods at all, then how is the Hindu viewpoint any different from Allah saying "There is no God but me" and all other "Gods" are false.
With respect SaiK - I think you are misinterpreting the Hindu concept of "God" (as being the same as oneness/unity) to serve a particular narrow need to reject Allah and Yahweh. I believe that is wrong.
As long as a person accepts that it is OK to worship Allah or Shiva, and both are the same - he subscribes to the Hindu scheme of things.
If, however, he says that Shiva is out, only Allah/Yahweh are in, then that is a closing of the mind that goes against the tenets of Hinduism. Similarly saying that Shiva is in, Allah is out <i>could be</i> a closing of one's mind.
But this "closing of the mind" also raises some questions. Hindu thought has always accepted that minds could be closed and Hindu literature is rife with examples and guidelines of how one can open one's mind. It requires an opening of one's mind to put ALL Gods on an equal footing. More importantly there is a Hindu acceptance that different people can have different Gods, which means that different people can see or feel God of different human descriptions, but the important rider the Hindu dharma puts on all these Gods is that they refer to the same ultimate reality. There is no traditional Hindu reference to giving ranks to God as far as I know and would accept being corrected in this regard.
But when I speak of "traditional Hindu references" we have to see what references and knowledge exists in Hindu thought after Hindus became aware of the existence of closed mind concepts like Allah and Yahweh. In terms of "Yet another God" Allah and Yahweh offer nothing new to Hindu thought. But in terms of social and destructive military organization built around Allah and Yahweh, Hindus thinkers have hardly had a chance to cope with the consequences.
How many Hindu thinkers would have survived and continued their thinking in the middle of a tornado. That is what Alllah's followers did to Hindus and that is what Yahweh's followers are doing in a different way. How much locigal Hindu thought has gone into accepting or rejecting what Allah and Yahweh bring us? Vivekananda again is one of the few people we can rely on as a basis for coping with the flood of questions.
The point I am trying to make, is a I believe a very important one in terms of understanding just what SORT of threat is posed by Islamism and malignant evangelism.
The presence of an Allah or a Yahweh is no threat. Hinduism can shake off any Gods that exist or that are yet to come.
But the real threat is in the forcible closing of minds that is required by the active spread of Islam and Christianity by conversion. Those who seek to close minds by forcing belief in a particular direction are a threat to freedom.
The argument that is used for allowing conversions is that one is allowed freedom of belief. Fine, but does belief in Jehovah or Allah give you freedom to believe in Shiva too? If not, then conversions have nothing to do with freedom. Using the word freedom is basically deceit. Freedom of religion does not amount to freedom of deceit.
I believe that it is important to have very clearly in our minds, the reason why conversion is a threat. Conversion to a thought process that accepts no other God is an assault on the identity of India. Indians have always accepted other faiths as equals. The survival of India as a secular state as per the Indian constitution demands that no thought process or religion should undermine the equality of all religions and Gods. This is perfectly compatible with Hindu thought as expressed in the post by Acharya above:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Hinduism never state it has monopoly on truth or God. According to Hinduism, God & truth are universal.
Rig Veda states: 'ekam sat viprah bahudaa vadanti' â¦meaning Truth or God is one but learnt men describe it in many ways.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anyone who attempts to upset that equality by preaching the supremacy of one God over the other is anti-national and must be opposed as an assault on the constitution. Organized or forced Conversion (or conversion by its Islamic name "reversion") is sedition.
I do not want to derail this thread, so I wil start a new thread using this post - and will leave it to the froum leaders to decide whether it should survive or not.
As part of a discussion I was having there - it seems to me that organized and forced conversions basically amount to sedition.
Sedition is defined (in an online dictionary) as
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> The raising of commotion in a state, not amounting to
   insurrection; conduct tending to treason, but without an
   overt act; excitement of discontent against the
   government, or of resistance to lawful authority.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason I say this is based on the discussion cross posted
<!--QuoteBegin-saik+Apr 19 2007, 09:33 PM-->QUOTE(saik @ Apr 19 2007, 09:33 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->What Hinduism says, is correct about the concept of following "any thing/person" as God, as long on realizes that it does not make difference.. but inclusion of Allah and Jesus means, the concept fails in its premise.
These western religion (xitian, muslim etc) followers does not accept Hindu ways.. hence, the acceptance of Hindu concepts is a problem for these folks. If that is the case, then it is required to make EJ proof, that we should not include Allah and Jesus from the texts of making all these Gods are okay to be followed.
I say, NO. If you are following Hinduism, then its NOT OK to follow Jesus or Allah, as they don't subscribe to Hindu way of living.
Hence, lets get out of this mentality of making the "hindu concept for all" theories, and rather stick to SD purely. The moment Jesus and Allah-ism enters, SDism is trashed.. they are totally opposite to understandings and realizations. Why include Jesus and Allah.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK these are interesting observations, but to me your observations raise more prickly questions.
If the universal philosophy of the Hindu dharma cannot accommodate two more "Gods" Allah and Jehovah, how is the philosophy "universal" as claimed. It is just another viewpoint like the viewpoint held by Allah/Yahweh followers?
If we were to argue that Allah/Jehovah are not Gods at all, then how is the Hindu viewpoint any different from Allah saying "There is no God but me" and all other "Gods" are false.
With respect SaiK - I think you are misinterpreting the Hindu concept of "God" (as being the same as oneness/unity) to serve a particular narrow need to reject Allah and Yahweh. I believe that is wrong.
As long as a person accepts that it is OK to worship Allah or Shiva, and both are the same - he subscribes to the Hindu scheme of things.
If, however, he says that Shiva is out, only Allah/Yahweh are in, then that is a closing of the mind that goes against the tenets of Hinduism. Similarly saying that Shiva is in, Allah is out <i>could be</i> a closing of one's mind.
But this "closing of the mind" also raises some questions. Hindu thought has always accepted that minds could be closed and Hindu literature is rife with examples and guidelines of how one can open one's mind. It requires an opening of one's mind to put ALL Gods on an equal footing. More importantly there is a Hindu acceptance that different people can have different Gods, which means that different people can see or feel God of different human descriptions, but the important rider the Hindu dharma puts on all these Gods is that they refer to the same ultimate reality. There is no traditional Hindu reference to giving ranks to God as far as I know and would accept being corrected in this regard.
But when I speak of "traditional Hindu references" we have to see what references and knowledge exists in Hindu thought after Hindus became aware of the existence of closed mind concepts like Allah and Yahweh. In terms of "Yet another God" Allah and Yahweh offer nothing new to Hindu thought. But in terms of social and destructive military organization built around Allah and Yahweh, Hindus thinkers have hardly had a chance to cope with the consequences.
How many Hindu thinkers would have survived and continued their thinking in the middle of a tornado. That is what Alllah's followers did to Hindus and that is what Yahweh's followers are doing in a different way. How much locigal Hindu thought has gone into accepting or rejecting what Allah and Yahweh bring us? Vivekananda again is one of the few people we can rely on as a basis for coping with the flood of questions.
The point I am trying to make, is a I believe a very important one in terms of understanding just what SORT of threat is posed by Islamism and malignant evangelism.
The presence of an Allah or a Yahweh is no threat. Hinduism can shake off any Gods that exist or that are yet to come.
But the real threat is in the forcible closing of minds that is required by the active spread of Islam and Christianity by conversion. Those who seek to close minds by forcing belief in a particular direction are a threat to freedom.
The argument that is used for allowing conversions is that one is allowed freedom of belief. Fine, but does belief in Jehovah or Allah give you freedom to believe in Shiva too? If not, then conversions have nothing to do with freedom. Using the word freedom is basically deceit. Freedom of religion does not amount to freedom of deceit.
I believe that it is important to have very clearly in our minds, the reason why conversion is a threat. Conversion to a thought process that accepts no other God is an assault on the identity of India. Indians have always accepted other faiths as equals. The survival of India as a secular state as per the Indian constitution demands that no thought process or religion should undermine the equality of all religions and Gods. This is perfectly compatible with Hindu thought as expressed in the post by Acharya above:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Hinduism never state it has monopoly on truth or God. According to Hinduism, God & truth are universal.
Rig Veda states: 'ekam sat viprah bahudaa vadanti' â¦meaning Truth or God is one but learnt men describe it in many ways.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anyone who attempts to upset that equality by preaching the supremacy of one God over the other is anti-national and must be opposed as an assault on the constitution. Organized or forced Conversion (or conversion by its Islamic name "reversion") is sedition.
I do not want to derail this thread, so I wil start a new thread using this post - and will leave it to the froum leaders to decide whether it should survive or not.