Thanks for the info Bodhi.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Also what about Egypt - more details?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Don't really know much about this. The Great Pyramids and other monuments of Ancient Egypt are generally attributed to the labours of numerous enslaved people. Also, saw some pictures posted on-line of wall paintings showing Ancient Egyptians having enslaved what looked particularly like depictions of Africans. Quite sad and painful.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The Mahabharat has great soliloquies against slavery by Arjuna addressing Uttara Kumara.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->the speech that Arjuna gives to Uttara Kumara after the Utaara Go grahana about the miserable existence of dasas<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Amongst other things, Tuladhar certainly speaks against slavery. (He even lays down the morals and animal rights!)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Interesting that in India, like in Rome in later times, there were people in power or people with an audience who made it a point to speak out against slavery. (Something the christian churches never attempted even when the abolition was enforced on their world.)
See Rome:
http://freetruth.50webs.org/B3c.htm#AncientSlavery
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->By the first century the Stoics openly condemned slavery. Other Greek moralists besides the Stoics condemned it. Plutarch condemned it. Epicurus had come near to condemning it three centuries earlier when he had defined the slave as "a friend in an inferior condition"; and the Epicurean Hegesias had maintained that slaves were the equals of free men. Florentinus and Ulpian, the two famous Stoic jurists, declared that the enslavement of a man was against the law of nature, the supreme standard of the Stoic. Seneca insisted that the slaves were our "lowly friends," and he pleaded repeatedly and nobly for them. Pliny shows us in his letters that by the second century the slaves were very humanely treated even on provincial estates. Juvenal fiercely attacked inhumanity to slaves.
-- The Story Of Religious Controversy, by Joseph McCabe<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->ABOUT the year 100 A.D. two remarkable lectures on slavery were delivered in Rome.
...the eloquent Greek Stoic, Dion Chrysostom, or "Dion of the Golden Mouth" ...an intimate friend [of] the great emperor, Trajan. The idol of the thoughtful section of the Roman nobility.
And for the two days -- the subject was too large for one day -- Dion had announced as his subject "Slavery": a delicate topic, one would imagine, if pagan Rome were quite the slave-driving city it is commonly supposed to have been, unless the aristocratic orator intended to justify the institution for his aristocratic audience, every member of which owned many slaves.
But Dion, as we read in the extant lectures, denounced slavery as unjust.
About the same time there was in Rome a very democratic poet named Juvenal who was putting in fiery verse, or satire, certain statements about the brutality of the Roman aristocrats to their slaves. Every religious writer in the world knows those "Satires" of Juvenal; although every classical authority in the world will warn you not to take their statements seriously. But no religious writer in the world seems ever to have heard of Dion Chyrsostom and his denunciation of slavery.
It is quite formal, explicit and lengthy. It fills two lectures. Here is an express and honorable condemnation of slavery, by a well-known friend of the emperor, in the most public and effective circumstances, at a time when the Christians were a mere handful of obscure folk, mumbling a Greek liturgy and debating whether the end of the world was not at hand.
-- The Story Of Religious Controversy, by Joseph McCabe<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->This is what I admire about the Greeks and Romans. They evolved as a society and showed promise of becoming much better (if christianity hadn't come along). There were among them people who were not going to let the petty characteristics of humanity stop them, and continued to fight against these even when they were in power and could afford to forget about others. Rather than continue to ignore it, they chose to insist that mankind become more noble and improve the lives of fellow humans. <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
So too in ancient India. Arjuna could have forgotten about the plight of the Dasas, but he didn't. Thumbs up for Tuladhara for speaking on animal rights too.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Husky, Ramana, these are just some unanalyzed references only. Please don't take these uncritically. All I say is, we must do honest analysis, even if it sounds uncomfortable.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->No problem for me. Constant striving for improvement should be any human's aim, so too that of Hindus as a collective community. Best to know of and face the worst that there is/was, so we can at least make things better in the present and future. Because it is far worse to remain in ignorance of miserable things and in that way do nothing about them.
If Arjuna and Tuladhara, Dion Chrysostom and those other Greco-Romans, and the Deist Thomas Paine spoke against slavery, at least we can try to ensure their visions are forever implemented. Modern slavery includes what's happening to the Sudanese this very moment, child labour, trafficking of women and children - the list is endless.
And of course kidnapped mistreated animals, like bears made to 'dance'.
When one doesn't even like to see a bird or mouse in a cage, how can any approve of owning another person (let alone tormenting them)?
<b>ADDED:</b>
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Husky, your essay on origin and progression of 'slave' was very eye-opening. Thanks for sharing that.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Actually, as indicated, it was entirely an excercise in copy-paste from that site. But if you're thanking me for my diligent copy 'n paste efforts, you're very welcome <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Also what about Egypt - more details?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Don't really know much about this. The Great Pyramids and other monuments of Ancient Egypt are generally attributed to the labours of numerous enslaved people. Also, saw some pictures posted on-line of wall paintings showing Ancient Egyptians having enslaved what looked particularly like depictions of Africans. Quite sad and painful.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The Mahabharat has great soliloquies against slavery by Arjuna addressing Uttara Kumara.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->the speech that Arjuna gives to Uttara Kumara after the Utaara Go grahana about the miserable existence of dasas<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Amongst other things, Tuladhar certainly speaks against slavery. (He even lays down the morals and animal rights!)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Interesting that in India, like in Rome in later times, there were people in power or people with an audience who made it a point to speak out against slavery. (Something the christian churches never attempted even when the abolition was enforced on their world.)
See Rome:
http://freetruth.50webs.org/B3c.htm#AncientSlavery
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->By the first century the Stoics openly condemned slavery. Other Greek moralists besides the Stoics condemned it. Plutarch condemned it. Epicurus had come near to condemning it three centuries earlier when he had defined the slave as "a friend in an inferior condition"; and the Epicurean Hegesias had maintained that slaves were the equals of free men. Florentinus and Ulpian, the two famous Stoic jurists, declared that the enslavement of a man was against the law of nature, the supreme standard of the Stoic. Seneca insisted that the slaves were our "lowly friends," and he pleaded repeatedly and nobly for them. Pliny shows us in his letters that by the second century the slaves were very humanely treated even on provincial estates. Juvenal fiercely attacked inhumanity to slaves.
-- The Story Of Religious Controversy, by Joseph McCabe<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->ABOUT the year 100 A.D. two remarkable lectures on slavery were delivered in Rome.
...the eloquent Greek Stoic, Dion Chrysostom, or "Dion of the Golden Mouth" ...an intimate friend [of] the great emperor, Trajan. The idol of the thoughtful section of the Roman nobility.
And for the two days -- the subject was too large for one day -- Dion had announced as his subject "Slavery": a delicate topic, one would imagine, if pagan Rome were quite the slave-driving city it is commonly supposed to have been, unless the aristocratic orator intended to justify the institution for his aristocratic audience, every member of which owned many slaves.
But Dion, as we read in the extant lectures, denounced slavery as unjust.
About the same time there was in Rome a very democratic poet named Juvenal who was putting in fiery verse, or satire, certain statements about the brutality of the Roman aristocrats to their slaves. Every religious writer in the world knows those "Satires" of Juvenal; although every classical authority in the world will warn you not to take their statements seriously. But no religious writer in the world seems ever to have heard of Dion Chyrsostom and his denunciation of slavery.
It is quite formal, explicit and lengthy. It fills two lectures. Here is an express and honorable condemnation of slavery, by a well-known friend of the emperor, in the most public and effective circumstances, at a time when the Christians were a mere handful of obscure folk, mumbling a Greek liturgy and debating whether the end of the world was not at hand.
-- The Story Of Religious Controversy, by Joseph McCabe<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->This is what I admire about the Greeks and Romans. They evolved as a society and showed promise of becoming much better (if christianity hadn't come along). There were among them people who were not going to let the petty characteristics of humanity stop them, and continued to fight against these even when they were in power and could afford to forget about others. Rather than continue to ignore it, they chose to insist that mankind become more noble and improve the lives of fellow humans. <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> So too in ancient India. Arjuna could have forgotten about the plight of the Dasas, but he didn't. Thumbs up for Tuladhara for speaking on animal rights too.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Husky, Ramana, these are just some unanalyzed references only. Please don't take these uncritically. All I say is, we must do honest analysis, even if it sounds uncomfortable.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->No problem for me. Constant striving for improvement should be any human's aim, so too that of Hindus as a collective community. Best to know of and face the worst that there is/was, so we can at least make things better in the present and future. Because it is far worse to remain in ignorance of miserable things and in that way do nothing about them.
If Arjuna and Tuladhara, Dion Chrysostom and those other Greco-Romans, and the Deist Thomas Paine spoke against slavery, at least we can try to ensure their visions are forever implemented. Modern slavery includes what's happening to the Sudanese this very moment, child labour, trafficking of women and children - the list is endless.
And of course kidnapped mistreated animals, like bears made to 'dance'.
When one doesn't even like to see a bird or mouse in a cage, how can any approve of owning another person (let alone tormenting them)?
<b>ADDED:</b>
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Husky, your essay on origin and progression of 'slave' was very eye-opening. Thanks for sharing that.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Actually, as indicated, it was entirely an excercise in copy-paste from that site. But if you're thanking me for my diligent copy 'n paste efforts, you're very welcome <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->