Deja vu. Think everything I've written in this thread I wrote a long time back in some other IF threads. Apologies to anyone who minds the repetition.
More points have been raised. The most important being:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I have seen a great deal of anger at conversions but no clear explanation as to why Hindus should be against conversions - other than that they are angry.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I have made attempts to read some good arguments, but have found none that convinces me enough. The one argument I have heard is the state of affairs in NE India and their anti-nationalism. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Whatever the motivation of the people in the North east - a rigid paranoia of Christianity is not in our interest. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Paranoia implies unnecessary fear - often of what is not there. It does not apply here, because there is <i>every reason</i> for any sane (wo)man to fear christianity, just like there is to fear islam.
<b>The simplest - and only reason even needed - to fear christianity and conversions is this: that of intolerance. Intolerance is ingrained in christianity as it is in islam. </b>I've often argued that they are two quarelling sects of one the same intolerant religion.
But let's discuss christianity. Indians tend to think of the Goa inquisitions as a one-off. That the genocide of the native Americans was done by christians ignorant of the 'good teachings' of their religion. That the witch hunts and inquisitions in Europe were the result of the barbarity of the middle ages. The list is endless and is even now being appended to.
But the one constant in this entire list - and curiously the one thing overlooked by all - is the part the christian ideology has played in it. Even the Indians who have learnt to recognise the hand of islam in past and present islamoterrorism, are either too afraid or ignorant to see the unmistakable signature of christianity in all the horrid events just listed.
And the more ignorant would say: remember how the Romans persecuted the christians?
Someone mentioned anti-nationalism. Yes, it's indeed a very regular consequence of conversions. It is but <i>one</i> consequence however. And not even the worst.
You've asked the questions. The answers will take some reading on your part, if you're willing. First just read through my post if you will, then if you're interested you can choose to read the stuff at the links.
<b>Let's start with Rome.</b> The Romans are made out to have persecuted christianity ruthlessly. It turns out that historians have exposed that the opposite was in fact the case, and that of the allegations against many Roman emperors, only a few of them persecuted and that these were infinitely milder than the christian claims made them out to be:
- http://freetruth.50webs.org/B3b.htm <i>"Persecuted by Rome" and more lies</i>
Although the Ancient Romans were trying to be respectful, the christians kept flouting their intolerant ideology in their faces and insulting the Roman Religion and Gods, vandalising Roman temples and other nasty behaviour.
This section also shows how christians were in fact traitors to the pagan Roman Empire (but loyal subjects of the same when it came under christian dictatorship and the christian religion started to be <i>forced</i> on the Romans)
- http://freetruth.50webs.org/B3b.htm#EdictAndCodes <i>Who did the persecuting?</i>
How christians had to force the terrorist ideology down Roman throats
- http://freetruth.50webs.org/A2b.htm <i>Age of Ignorance</i>
how christianity destroyed all the schools in the Roman empire and reduced it from a nation where most (even slaves) were literate into christian lands where the aristocrats could do no more than put a cross down as their 'signature'.
- http://freetruth.50webs.org/B3c.htm#Morality <i>Christian morality versus that of ancient Rome</i>
Why Romans did not consider christianity an 'attractive, virtuous' religion in spite of the dawaganda and history whitewash the church has made of it today
<b>Then moving on to Greece:</b>
- http://www.ysee.gr/index-eng.php?type=en...ovestories <i>Christian persecution against the Hellenes</i>
How the Greeks resisted conversions, so the christians murdered many - in <b>concentration camps</b>
- http://freetruth.50webs.org/A1.htm <i>Hatred for Ancient Greek culture</i> (and again, Rome too)
How christians destroyed Greco-Roman temples to build churches over them. You have one poor old Greco-Roman (retired?) official authoring a book <i>Pro Templis</i> ('In defense of the temples') to explain why the temples ought to be spared and protected against the raging christian monks bringing the temples and libraries down.
http://freetruth.50webs.org/A2a.htm <i>The Early Church Councils: murder, heresy and shaping future beliefs</i>
How once the christians had wrested control of the Roman Empire, the various christian sects - already drunk on the blood of the Romans of the Old Religion - started persecuting each other. Why? Intolerant ideology, of course. It never gets along. Finding heresies and identifying heretics was their favourite pastime.
The history of the conversion of the rest of Europe was brutal (
http://freetruth.50webs.org/ ). I'm sure one can find other sites and books detailing these things.
In Persia too, christianity was attempting all kinds of anti-national things. And it was not only in the early centuries that this happened. When the church turned its roving eye onto Asia, its conversion drives in Japan, China, Thailand, Vietnam all went coupled with great persecutions of the Buddhist and Taoist and Shintoist local populace. Of course, another consequence was once again anti-national movements. ( http://freetruth.50webs.org/A4c.htm and http://freetruth.50webs.org/A4d.htm )
Oh, but that was all in the past, you say. How right you are. The inquisitions, reformations, none of it matters. The 8-9 million women murdered by the witch hunts - peanuts, right? It wasn't Ze True Christianity people might say (what is?)
But here is a great one-line summary of christianity, by none other than that Doctor of the Church, celebrated Saint and all-round christian hero Aquinas:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"Unbelievers deserve not only to be separated from the Church, but also... to be exterminated from the World by death."
<i>- Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, 1271</i><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Just in case you think you know better than him: don't try it. The man's a pro in his field.
<b>Christianity doesn't behave like this anymore, you might argue. You'd be wrong.</b>
Introducing peoples you never knew and soon might not have chance to know thanks to the genocidal christian machine carrying on the grand old tradition:
The Akha, Bayak Pygmees and numerous others. Some mentioned here:
http://freetruth.50webs.org/Overview4.htm
<b>Most important example of all, because it is the most succinct and highly illustrative of the activities of christianity in modern times in an Asian nation:</b>
<b>Please do read the stuff at these three links, and see the images on the last:</b>
http://www.buddhapia.com/eng/tedesco/2.html <b>Buddhism under Siege in Korea 1982-1996</b>
http://www.buddhapia.com/eng/tedesco/3.html <b>Chronology of Events January</b> 1997-December 1998
And look at <b>some images of what christianity has accomplished in S Korea</b> - thanks to the good christian converts:
http://www.buddhapia.com/eng/tedesco/pic1/list.html
This is what I mean with christianity = intolerance
Things are never going to change, unless christians (and muslims) toss out their scriptures altogether. Because you can have individual christians being tolerant, accepting even, of others - but they do so <i>against</i> their religion. Their children may not be so charitable, as we can see daily with the 'fundamentalists' of islam (who are the true muslims, because they are following the koran); or the genocidal christian missionaries working with the Akha and African and S American communities.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The rigidest followers are mostly the Priests (the Church) and Mullahs and supporting Sultans whose power depends on it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->No. As you can see from that last link, bottom most image:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"If I acted on what I believed I, too, could have vandalized temples. When I consider those who commit such acts I think to myself that they have a much stronger faith than me."
-- Deacon Lee Bahn-Sung "a former Buddhist turned Christian", BBC-World (TV), Asia Today, May 21, 1999. [Link]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->As you can see, this deacon (priest) is referring to the actual actions of lay christian S Koreans. And as is apparent from those images, regular converts are no less practised in the art of being good christians, off to cleanse the world of idolatrous images, making sure that they shall 'have no other Gods' before them, nor anyone else either!
More points have been raised. The most important being:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I have seen a great deal of anger at conversions but no clear explanation as to why Hindus should be against conversions - other than that they are angry.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I have made attempts to read some good arguments, but have found none that convinces me enough. The one argument I have heard is the state of affairs in NE India and their anti-nationalism. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Whatever the motivation of the people in the North east - a rigid paranoia of Christianity is not in our interest. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Paranoia implies unnecessary fear - often of what is not there. It does not apply here, because there is <i>every reason</i> for any sane (wo)man to fear christianity, just like there is to fear islam.
<b>The simplest - and only reason even needed - to fear christianity and conversions is this: that of intolerance. Intolerance is ingrained in christianity as it is in islam. </b>I've often argued that they are two quarelling sects of one the same intolerant religion.
But let's discuss christianity. Indians tend to think of the Goa inquisitions as a one-off. That the genocide of the native Americans was done by christians ignorant of the 'good teachings' of their religion. That the witch hunts and inquisitions in Europe were the result of the barbarity of the middle ages. The list is endless and is even now being appended to.
But the one constant in this entire list - and curiously the one thing overlooked by all - is the part the christian ideology has played in it. Even the Indians who have learnt to recognise the hand of islam in past and present islamoterrorism, are either too afraid or ignorant to see the unmistakable signature of christianity in all the horrid events just listed.
And the more ignorant would say: remember how the Romans persecuted the christians?
Someone mentioned anti-nationalism. Yes, it's indeed a very regular consequence of conversions. It is but <i>one</i> consequence however. And not even the worst.
You've asked the questions. The answers will take some reading on your part, if you're willing. First just read through my post if you will, then if you're interested you can choose to read the stuff at the links.
<b>Let's start with Rome.</b> The Romans are made out to have persecuted christianity ruthlessly. It turns out that historians have exposed that the opposite was in fact the case, and that of the allegations against many Roman emperors, only a few of them persecuted and that these were infinitely milder than the christian claims made them out to be:
- http://freetruth.50webs.org/B3b.htm <i>"Persecuted by Rome" and more lies</i>
Although the Ancient Romans were trying to be respectful, the christians kept flouting their intolerant ideology in their faces and insulting the Roman Religion and Gods, vandalising Roman temples and other nasty behaviour.
This section also shows how christians were in fact traitors to the pagan Roman Empire (but loyal subjects of the same when it came under christian dictatorship and the christian religion started to be <i>forced</i> on the Romans)
- http://freetruth.50webs.org/B3b.htm#EdictAndCodes <i>Who did the persecuting?</i>
How christians had to force the terrorist ideology down Roman throats
- http://freetruth.50webs.org/A2b.htm <i>Age of Ignorance</i>
how christianity destroyed all the schools in the Roman empire and reduced it from a nation where most (even slaves) were literate into christian lands where the aristocrats could do no more than put a cross down as their 'signature'.
- http://freetruth.50webs.org/B3c.htm#Morality <i>Christian morality versus that of ancient Rome</i>
Why Romans did not consider christianity an 'attractive, virtuous' religion in spite of the dawaganda and history whitewash the church has made of it today
<b>Then moving on to Greece:</b>
- http://www.ysee.gr/index-eng.php?type=en...ovestories <i>Christian persecution against the Hellenes</i>
How the Greeks resisted conversions, so the christians murdered many - in <b>concentration camps</b>
- http://freetruth.50webs.org/A1.htm <i>Hatred for Ancient Greek culture</i> (and again, Rome too)
How christians destroyed Greco-Roman temples to build churches over them. You have one poor old Greco-Roman (retired?) official authoring a book <i>Pro Templis</i> ('In defense of the temples') to explain why the temples ought to be spared and protected against the raging christian monks bringing the temples and libraries down.
http://freetruth.50webs.org/A2a.htm <i>The Early Church Councils: murder, heresy and shaping future beliefs</i>
How once the christians had wrested control of the Roman Empire, the various christian sects - already drunk on the blood of the Romans of the Old Religion - started persecuting each other. Why? Intolerant ideology, of course. It never gets along. Finding heresies and identifying heretics was their favourite pastime.
The history of the conversion of the rest of Europe was brutal (
http://freetruth.50webs.org/ ). I'm sure one can find other sites and books detailing these things.
In Persia too, christianity was attempting all kinds of anti-national things. And it was not only in the early centuries that this happened. When the church turned its roving eye onto Asia, its conversion drives in Japan, China, Thailand, Vietnam all went coupled with great persecutions of the Buddhist and Taoist and Shintoist local populace. Of course, another consequence was once again anti-national movements. ( http://freetruth.50webs.org/A4c.htm and http://freetruth.50webs.org/A4d.htm )
Oh, but that was all in the past, you say. How right you are. The inquisitions, reformations, none of it matters. The 8-9 million women murdered by the witch hunts - peanuts, right? It wasn't Ze True Christianity people might say (what is?)
But here is a great one-line summary of christianity, by none other than that Doctor of the Church, celebrated Saint and all-round christian hero Aquinas:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"Unbelievers deserve not only to be separated from the Church, but also... to be exterminated from the World by death."
<i>- Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, 1271</i><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Just in case you think you know better than him: don't try it. The man's a pro in his field.
<b>Christianity doesn't behave like this anymore, you might argue. You'd be wrong.</b>
Introducing peoples you never knew and soon might not have chance to know thanks to the genocidal christian machine carrying on the grand old tradition:
The Akha, Bayak Pygmees and numerous others. Some mentioned here:
http://freetruth.50webs.org/Overview4.htm
<b>Most important example of all, because it is the most succinct and highly illustrative of the activities of christianity in modern times in an Asian nation:</b>
<b>Please do read the stuff at these three links, and see the images on the last:</b>
http://www.buddhapia.com/eng/tedesco/2.html <b>Buddhism under Siege in Korea 1982-1996</b>
http://www.buddhapia.com/eng/tedesco/3.html <b>Chronology of Events January</b> 1997-December 1998
And look at <b>some images of what christianity has accomplished in S Korea</b> - thanks to the good christian converts:
http://www.buddhapia.com/eng/tedesco/pic1/list.html
This is what I mean with christianity = intolerance
Things are never going to change, unless christians (and muslims) toss out their scriptures altogether. Because you can have individual christians being tolerant, accepting even, of others - but they do so <i>against</i> their religion. Their children may not be so charitable, as we can see daily with the 'fundamentalists' of islam (who are the true muslims, because they are following the koran); or the genocidal christian missionaries working with the Akha and African and S American communities.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The rigidest followers are mostly the Priests (the Church) and Mullahs and supporting Sultans whose power depends on it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->No. As you can see from that last link, bottom most image:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"If I acted on what I believed I, too, could have vandalized temples. When I consider those who commit such acts I think to myself that they have a much stronger faith than me."
-- Deacon Lee Bahn-Sung "a former Buddhist turned Christian", BBC-World (TV), Asia Today, May 21, 1999. [Link]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->As you can see, this deacon (priest) is referring to the actual actions of lay christian S Koreans. And as is apparent from those images, regular converts are no less practised in the art of being good christians, off to cleanse the world of idolatrous images, making sure that they shall 'have no other Gods' before them, nor anyone else either!