05-15-2007, 12:20 AM
An e-mail exchange
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Brother Steve,
The exchanges began with a question regarding what did Tagore mean by 'our goal.' I've assumed that he had a Hindu sense of what the goal of life is and tried to explain what I guessed he might have meant. <b> I personally believe the Hindu explanation is indeed the right one, and provides clarification to the deepest meaning of the Bible and Jesus' Gospel. Reasonable and well-intentioned people can disagree on this point. It's ok with me that you don't agree that Hinduism (and Islam and Buddhism and Zoroastrianism etc etc) sheds light on the meaning of the Bible.</b>
Brother Earl
Earl,
<b>Sorry, but I cannot agree all religions are unified in this sense. If you believe the Bible, it says that it was Satan who said that he would ascend the throne and be like God, or become God.</b>
The Bible has a very different message then self-actualization. Check out Hebrews as one example. It says in the second chapter that "because of God's great kindness, Jesus tasted death for everyone in all the world.  And it was right and proper that God, who made everything for his own glory, should allow Jesus to suffer, for in doing this he was bringing vast multitudes of God's people to heaven; for his suffering made Jesus a perfect leader, one fit to bring them into their salvation. ......... We who have been made holy by Jesus, now have the same Father he has. That is why Jesus is not ashamed to call us his brothers. For he says in the book of Psalms, "I will talk to my brothers about God my Father, and together we will sing His praises". It warns us that we must not neglect so great a salvation than other than to trust in the shed blood of Jesus to cleanse us from our sins.
<b>This seems very different and diametrically opposed to the Hindu ideas of God and reality. It clearly speaks of real things as being made and that you and I are not God. It also very clearly emphasizes that we must acknowledge the fact that we are sinners and need a saviour, not self actualization. And by the way, the Bible is "Eastern wisdom" as well, and would add, the true wisdom.</b>
- Steve
Earl wrote:
<b>I am going to make the assumption that Tagore held that all souls have the same life-goal, since that is a fundamental tenet of Hindu philosophy.
Another fundamental tenet of that philosophy is that Atman IS Paramatman. Atma refers to the individualized soul (I believe the Sanskrit root is the same as the root of the Greek atom); Paramatman means literally 'oversoul' or 'greatest soul.' This means God.</b>
So...<b>the principle is that the search is to realize the true nature of your individualized soul or self. When you come to know your true nature, you discover that you are none other than Infinite and Holy God, for only God truly exists.</b>
The motto of Sufism Reoriented is 'God alone is Real, and the Goal of Life is to be united with Him through Love.' It is my opinion that this is what Tagore is saying. <b>I would further offer that this is the principle that underlies all true Religion -- recognition of the Real Existence and seeking to realize that Real Existence within one's own being through Love -- of God and neighbor.
May we prosper in the One, True Religion -- Love for God.</b>
Earl
________________________________________
From: Stephen
However, you quoted Tagore to say "our activity", not his activity. So I don't see that Ali is incorrect. Tagore's saying seemed to be directed toward everyone's personal activity.
<b>Referring to your answer, by god-realization, do you mean to say that this is a realization that says "I, myself, am God!" ??? Clarification please!
- Steve</b>
Earl wrote:
<b>Ali's thought highlights a defect in circulating one-line quotations lifted out of their context. One would have to consult the body of Tagore's work to know what he presumed the goal to be.</b> Since he was a Hindu, he probably understood the goal of life to be Self-realization (God-realization). <b>If I am correct, then he is saying that we should seek our true Self, God, in the midst of all of our worldly activity -- not just in temple, church, mosque worship or on retreat isolated from everyday life.</b>
Though I agree with him, I still want to retire in about one year -- switch to other everyday activities in which to seek my true Self! That may appear to be, and indeed may be, retreating from the battlefield
Earlism
________________________________________
From: Ali
Subject: RE: Today's Eastern Wisdom
<b>However, the dilemma we face is being certain that our goal aligns with the Divine purpose for our lives¬to err here is to spend our lives on a perpetual search.
Just a thought!
Ali </b>
________________________________________
From: Earl
Subject: Today's Eastern Wisdom
<b>It is in the very heart of our activity that we search for our goal. -- Rabindranath Tagore</b>
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Brother Steve,
The exchanges began with a question regarding what did Tagore mean by 'our goal.' I've assumed that he had a Hindu sense of what the goal of life is and tried to explain what I guessed he might have meant. <b> I personally believe the Hindu explanation is indeed the right one, and provides clarification to the deepest meaning of the Bible and Jesus' Gospel. Reasonable and well-intentioned people can disagree on this point. It's ok with me that you don't agree that Hinduism (and Islam and Buddhism and Zoroastrianism etc etc) sheds light on the meaning of the Bible.</b>
Brother Earl
Earl,
<b>Sorry, but I cannot agree all religions are unified in this sense. If you believe the Bible, it says that it was Satan who said that he would ascend the throne and be like God, or become God.</b>
The Bible has a very different message then self-actualization. Check out Hebrews as one example. It says in the second chapter that "because of God's great kindness, Jesus tasted death for everyone in all the world.  And it was right and proper that God, who made everything for his own glory, should allow Jesus to suffer, for in doing this he was bringing vast multitudes of God's people to heaven; for his suffering made Jesus a perfect leader, one fit to bring them into their salvation. ......... We who have been made holy by Jesus, now have the same Father he has. That is why Jesus is not ashamed to call us his brothers. For he says in the book of Psalms, "I will talk to my brothers about God my Father, and together we will sing His praises". It warns us that we must not neglect so great a salvation than other than to trust in the shed blood of Jesus to cleanse us from our sins.
<b>This seems very different and diametrically opposed to the Hindu ideas of God and reality. It clearly speaks of real things as being made and that you and I are not God. It also very clearly emphasizes that we must acknowledge the fact that we are sinners and need a saviour, not self actualization. And by the way, the Bible is "Eastern wisdom" as well, and would add, the true wisdom.</b>
- Steve
Earl wrote:
<b>I am going to make the assumption that Tagore held that all souls have the same life-goal, since that is a fundamental tenet of Hindu philosophy.
Another fundamental tenet of that philosophy is that Atman IS Paramatman. Atma refers to the individualized soul (I believe the Sanskrit root is the same as the root of the Greek atom); Paramatman means literally 'oversoul' or 'greatest soul.' This means God.</b>
So...<b>the principle is that the search is to realize the true nature of your individualized soul or self. When you come to know your true nature, you discover that you are none other than Infinite and Holy God, for only God truly exists.</b>
The motto of Sufism Reoriented is 'God alone is Real, and the Goal of Life is to be united with Him through Love.' It is my opinion that this is what Tagore is saying. <b>I would further offer that this is the principle that underlies all true Religion -- recognition of the Real Existence and seeking to realize that Real Existence within one's own being through Love -- of God and neighbor.
May we prosper in the One, True Religion -- Love for God.</b>
Earl
________________________________________
From: Stephen
However, you quoted Tagore to say "our activity", not his activity. So I don't see that Ali is incorrect. Tagore's saying seemed to be directed toward everyone's personal activity.
<b>Referring to your answer, by god-realization, do you mean to say that this is a realization that says "I, myself, am God!" ??? Clarification please!
- Steve</b>
Earl wrote:
<b>Ali's thought highlights a defect in circulating one-line quotations lifted out of their context. One would have to consult the body of Tagore's work to know what he presumed the goal to be.</b> Since he was a Hindu, he probably understood the goal of life to be Self-realization (God-realization). <b>If I am correct, then he is saying that we should seek our true Self, God, in the midst of all of our worldly activity -- not just in temple, church, mosque worship or on retreat isolated from everyday life.</b>
Though I agree with him, I still want to retire in about one year -- switch to other everyday activities in which to seek my true Self! That may appear to be, and indeed may be, retreating from the battlefield
Earlism
________________________________________
From: Ali
Subject: RE: Today's Eastern Wisdom
<b>However, the dilemma we face is being certain that our goal aligns with the Divine purpose for our lives¬to err here is to spend our lives on a perpetual search.
Just a thought!
Ali </b>
________________________________________
From: Earl
Subject: Today's Eastern Wisdom
<b>It is in the very heart of our activity that we search for our goal. -- Rabindranath Tagore</b>
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->