05-24-2007, 07:11 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->1. Is there a one-to-one correspondence between the above? e.g. Kesh->Truth etc?
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As an absolute Truth that hair are grown natural and thus should not be cut. Guru Gobind Singh wanted to create a Soldier and thus give them fericious manly look as well as totally independent (no need to visit barber or to carry extra stuff)., also ancient indian people (ram krishna and others) always had long hairs. All Saints in India have long beards. A person with long beard is automatically thought of "Sadhu/Saint". In fact many "fanatic Khalsa" sikhs do not even let doctors shave off their hairs before any type of surgery.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->2. These 5 are very much within the ageless 5 yams (Satya:Truth-Ahinsa:non-violence-Asteya:non-stealing/righteouseness-Bramhacharya-Aparigraha:non-accumulating) as taught in ashtangayoga, countless shastras and Acharyas of Dharma, including Ashta-patha of Bhagwan Buddha. Symbolism might be new, but message is ageless and consistant. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All the others except for "Brahmacharya" are pretty much sikhi. Sri Guru Nanak dev rejected Brahmacharya (though Guru Gobind Singh practiced it after he had four sons)., Guru Nanak Dev's Son became ascetic (Brahmchari) and Guru Nanak dev outrigt told his Sikhs (Shishya is a new word Sikh is an ancient word for
Disciple or shishya) that his son is not fit to be a Sikh.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Do Sikhs acknowledge this fact that the essence of Guru Granth attests to what Bhagwan Krishna explains, and also Bhagwan Buddha? (In my experience, the unfortunate thing is that most youngster Sikhs take objection to this, if shown).
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Off course! all Sikhs acknowledge the fact that Dharma is an outright message of Mahabharata and Gita and Truth, Satya is an outright message of Ramayana.
Young Sikhs object because they do not know.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Is there anything that wise Sikhs or Gurudwaras doing to show the commonness to youngser Sikhs?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any valid granthi that is educated by SGPC or Nirmala schools know this and often go right into Gita or Mahabharata or Ramayana to explain what SGGS is saying. Sikhi is suppose to be very very liberal (liberal in the sense of accepting others as equal to them but not Sex, drugs or alcohol). Just visit any Gurudwara in the world and check it out for yourself. It might be hard for you to understand punjabi but in western countries (usa, canada, uk) these days we have a projector and a laptop through which translated Gurbani is displayed across the whole gurdwara.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->3. If you translate Sikh=Shishya and that Hindus today need to become Sikh, I wouldnt object in that catholic sense of Sikhi. But you also mentioned that if a person today follows any living Guru in human form, he is automatically a non-Sikh.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sikh is Disciple or Student
Guru is Teacher or Ustaad
Guru Gobind Singh when dying told his people that
"Aagya bhai akal ki tabhi chalayo panth, Sabb Sikhan ko hukam hai guru manya granth"
"By the order of Akal (timeless, genderless spirit) I started this new Panth, I order all Sikhs to take this Granth as their Guru"
"Guru Granth ji manyo pragat guran ki deh, jo gur ko mil boch hai, khoj shabad mein lei"
"Make this Granth as if a Guru's body is present in front of you, If anybody wants to take an advice of Guru, open up the book and read the first page you get".
So!! from that day onwards... Sikh Gurudwara Services go like this..
1. SGGS Prakash is started.. i.e. the Book is taken out of a Bed and put in as if a King/Guru is seated... then a Granthi reads the Japu ji sahib (the first prayer as told by Guru Nanak dev).
2. Then... aaasa di waar is either sung in Gurbani or Granthi just reads it.
3. Shabad Kirtan is sung.. as Fifth Guru when compiling Guru Granth SAhib included the name of Raaga to go along with each verse.. So the Raagis (trained classical vocalists) sing whatever is appropriate (there are Shabads for each month and each day of the year).
4. The Rahiraas is sung.. or read.
5. Then Ardaas (prayer) is said to Guru and to God... then.. prasad is distributed.. This prayer has many political things or if somebody requests stuff lke "birthday","death",etc..
6. Then.. Sukhaasan is done.. i.e. book is closed and taken out to Bed.
7.. Then langar...
So!! as you can see!! the Book lives to be a living Guru.. According to Guru Gobind Singh all knowledge that any living guru can give you is already in the book so read and comprehend it.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Meaning Sri Guru Govind Singh was the 'last' human Guru, and humanity will never be blessed with another Guru in human form? AT least this part is where the biggest inconsistence of Dharmic traditions and Sikh"ism" come in play. Other Dharmic traditions tell us that the parampara of living Gurus, appearing from time to time, to teach humanity will not come to an end. Therefore this doubt. Have you first hand studied the message of tenth Guru to interpret the above? Insistance upon 'Last Guru and no more' thing is really a foundation of Messianic religions, and not Dharmic traditions. Is it possible that the tenth Guru may have very well designated Sri Grath Sahib as the 11th Guru but might not have meant 'no more human Gurus'? (just asking. If you have considered the question in that light.)
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well... SGGS is a Guru according to Sikhs but... any new person who comes along has to be in the boundries of SGGS as well as he/she can take the title of "Jathedar" i.e. "Leader" but not Guru.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Finally, Dharma followers need to be united by so many things that bind them together, rather than be divided upon so little that divides. Got to learn this much from our history at least. 'One who does not learn from his history, is bound to live through it again.' <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
off course! but as long as we have fraud Gurus and gullible Sangat... there is very dim hope.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As an absolute Truth that hair are grown natural and thus should not be cut. Guru Gobind Singh wanted to create a Soldier and thus give them fericious manly look as well as totally independent (no need to visit barber or to carry extra stuff)., also ancient indian people (ram krishna and others) always had long hairs. All Saints in India have long beards. A person with long beard is automatically thought of "Sadhu/Saint". In fact many "fanatic Khalsa" sikhs do not even let doctors shave off their hairs before any type of surgery.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->2. These 5 are very much within the ageless 5 yams (Satya:Truth-Ahinsa:non-violence-Asteya:non-stealing/righteouseness-Bramhacharya-Aparigraha:non-accumulating) as taught in ashtangayoga, countless shastras and Acharyas of Dharma, including Ashta-patha of Bhagwan Buddha. Symbolism might be new, but message is ageless and consistant. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All the others except for "Brahmacharya" are pretty much sikhi. Sri Guru Nanak dev rejected Brahmacharya (though Guru Gobind Singh practiced it after he had four sons)., Guru Nanak Dev's Son became ascetic (Brahmchari) and Guru Nanak dev outrigt told his Sikhs (Shishya is a new word Sikh is an ancient word for
Disciple or shishya) that his son is not fit to be a Sikh.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Do Sikhs acknowledge this fact that the essence of Guru Granth attests to what Bhagwan Krishna explains, and also Bhagwan Buddha? (In my experience, the unfortunate thing is that most youngster Sikhs take objection to this, if shown).
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Off course! all Sikhs acknowledge the fact that Dharma is an outright message of Mahabharata and Gita and Truth, Satya is an outright message of Ramayana.
Young Sikhs object because they do not know.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Is there anything that wise Sikhs or Gurudwaras doing to show the commonness to youngser Sikhs?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Any valid granthi that is educated by SGPC or Nirmala schools know this and often go right into Gita or Mahabharata or Ramayana to explain what SGGS is saying. Sikhi is suppose to be very very liberal (liberal in the sense of accepting others as equal to them but not Sex, drugs or alcohol). Just visit any Gurudwara in the world and check it out for yourself. It might be hard for you to understand punjabi but in western countries (usa, canada, uk) these days we have a projector and a laptop through which translated Gurbani is displayed across the whole gurdwara.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->3. If you translate Sikh=Shishya and that Hindus today need to become Sikh, I wouldnt object in that catholic sense of Sikhi. But you also mentioned that if a person today follows any living Guru in human form, he is automatically a non-Sikh.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sikh is Disciple or Student
Guru is Teacher or Ustaad
Guru Gobind Singh when dying told his people that
"Aagya bhai akal ki tabhi chalayo panth, Sabb Sikhan ko hukam hai guru manya granth"
"By the order of Akal (timeless, genderless spirit) I started this new Panth, I order all Sikhs to take this Granth as their Guru"
"Guru Granth ji manyo pragat guran ki deh, jo gur ko mil boch hai, khoj shabad mein lei"
"Make this Granth as if a Guru's body is present in front of you, If anybody wants to take an advice of Guru, open up the book and read the first page you get".
So!! from that day onwards... Sikh Gurudwara Services go like this..
1. SGGS Prakash is started.. i.e. the Book is taken out of a Bed and put in as if a King/Guru is seated... then a Granthi reads the Japu ji sahib (the first prayer as told by Guru Nanak dev).
2. Then... aaasa di waar is either sung in Gurbani or Granthi just reads it.
3. Shabad Kirtan is sung.. as Fifth Guru when compiling Guru Granth SAhib included the name of Raaga to go along with each verse.. So the Raagis (trained classical vocalists) sing whatever is appropriate (there are Shabads for each month and each day of the year).
4. The Rahiraas is sung.. or read.
5. Then Ardaas (prayer) is said to Guru and to God... then.. prasad is distributed.. This prayer has many political things or if somebody requests stuff lke "birthday","death",etc..
6. Then.. Sukhaasan is done.. i.e. book is closed and taken out to Bed.
7.. Then langar...
So!! as you can see!! the Book lives to be a living Guru.. According to Guru Gobind Singh all knowledge that any living guru can give you is already in the book so read and comprehend it.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Meaning Sri Guru Govind Singh was the 'last' human Guru, and humanity will never be blessed with another Guru in human form? AT least this part is where the biggest inconsistence of Dharmic traditions and Sikh"ism" come in play. Other Dharmic traditions tell us that the parampara of living Gurus, appearing from time to time, to teach humanity will not come to an end. Therefore this doubt. Have you first hand studied the message of tenth Guru to interpret the above? Insistance upon 'Last Guru and no more' thing is really a foundation of Messianic religions, and not Dharmic traditions. Is it possible that the tenth Guru may have very well designated Sri Grath Sahib as the 11th Guru but might not have meant 'no more human Gurus'? (just asking. If you have considered the question in that light.)
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well... SGGS is a Guru according to Sikhs but... any new person who comes along has to be in the boundries of SGGS as well as he/she can take the title of "Jathedar" i.e. "Leader" but not Guru.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Finally, Dharma followers need to be united by so many things that bind them together, rather than be divided upon so little that divides. Got to learn this much from our history at least. 'One who does not learn from his history, is bound to live through it again.' <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
off course! but as long as we have fraud Gurus and gullible Sangat... there is very dim hope.