06-01-2007, 01:52 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->> On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 16:29:20 +0000, fauxdk@comcast.net
> wrote:
> > List:
> >
> > Since I came under considerable heat in relation to my statements about the
> origins in place and time of R1a1 (M17), I thought a quote from Oppenheimer from
> his book, "The Real Eve" would be in order especially since it appears to have
> gained considerable respect in the academic community. If you recall I argued
> for an origin of M17 in Northern Pakistan or India and was basically "shouted
> down". You can now duke it out with Oppenheimer.
> >
> > "For me and for Toomas Kivsild, South Asia is logically the ultimate origin of
> M17 and his ancestors; and sure enough we find the highest rates and greatest
> diversity of the M17 line in Pakistan, India, and eastern Iran, and low rates in
> the Caucasus. M17 is not only more diverse in South Asia than in Central Asia,
> but diversity characterizes hits presence in isolated tribal groups in the
> south, thus undermining any theory of M17 as a marker of a 'male Aryan
> invasion' of India. One average estimate for the origin of this line in India
> is as much as 51,000 years. All this suggests that M17 could have found his way
> initially from India or Pakistan, through Kashmir, then via Central Asia and
> Russia, before finally coming into Europe". (p. 152)
> >
> > This statement, with which I entirely agree, is in direct competition with the
> views of Wells in his book, "The Journey of Man" where he has M17 as emerging in
> Europe and migrating to the east into Central Asia and ultimately bringing the
> Indo - European langugage into India. He also maintains that the highest
> diversity of M17 is in the Ukraine, thus bolstering his argument. This latter
> argument simply cannot be supported based on the databases to which I have
> access. <b>There is extremely low diversity in the Ukraine and adjacent areas, as
> well as eastern Central Asia. However the R1a1 (M17) diversity in Pakistan is
> immense - precisely as Oppenheimer has said. </b>> >
> > For those who chose to criticize my statements, you will have to realize that
> you are stuck in the late 1990s where it was simply a given that M17 emerged in
> the Ukraine. This pillar is crumbling under the weight of solid evidence to the
> contrary.
> >
> > David F.
> > <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
> wrote:
> > List:
> >
> > Since I came under considerable heat in relation to my statements about the
> origins in place and time of R1a1 (M17), I thought a quote from Oppenheimer from
> his book, "The Real Eve" would be in order especially since it appears to have
> gained considerable respect in the academic community. If you recall I argued
> for an origin of M17 in Northern Pakistan or India and was basically "shouted
> down". You can now duke it out with Oppenheimer.
> >
> > "For me and for Toomas Kivsild, South Asia is logically the ultimate origin of
> M17 and his ancestors; and sure enough we find the highest rates and greatest
> diversity of the M17 line in Pakistan, India, and eastern Iran, and low rates in
> the Caucasus. M17 is not only more diverse in South Asia than in Central Asia,
> but diversity characterizes hits presence in isolated tribal groups in the
> south, thus undermining any theory of M17 as a marker of a 'male Aryan
> invasion' of India. One average estimate for the origin of this line in India
> is as much as 51,000 years. All this suggests that M17 could have found his way
> initially from India or Pakistan, through Kashmir, then via Central Asia and
> Russia, before finally coming into Europe". (p. 152)
> >
> > This statement, with which I entirely agree, is in direct competition with the
> views of Wells in his book, "The Journey of Man" where he has M17 as emerging in
> Europe and migrating to the east into Central Asia and ultimately bringing the
> Indo - European langugage into India. He also maintains that the highest
> diversity of M17 is in the Ukraine, thus bolstering his argument. This latter
> argument simply cannot be supported based on the databases to which I have
> access. <b>There is extremely low diversity in the Ukraine and adjacent areas, as
> well as eastern Central Asia. However the R1a1 (M17) diversity in Pakistan is
> immense - precisely as Oppenheimer has said. </b>> >
> > For those who chose to criticize my statements, you will have to realize that
> you are stuck in the late 1990s where it was simply a given that M17 emerged in
> the Ukraine. This pillar is crumbling under the weight of solid evidence to the
> contrary.
> >
> > David F.
> > <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->