07-02-2007, 05:27 AM
Good job karan! <!--emo&:cool--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/specool.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='specool.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->'I take no responsibility for what Pratibha does'
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Karan Thapar: Hello and welcome to Devilâs Advocate. The Left has claimed credit for proposing Pratibha Patil as a candidate for the Presidency of India. So how do they react to the serious allegation she faces? Thatâs the issue I shall raise with the General Secretary of the Communist Party of India (CPI) A B Bardhan.
Mr Bardhan when Pratibha Patil was first suggested as the UPA-Left candidate for the Presidency, you said â âI was one of those who jumped on it because it was a very good name.â Today, after the spate of newspaper stories questioning her integrity and her beliefs, do you think you have chosen the wrong person for the Presidency?
A B Bardhan: I never thought you will fall for the lies manufactured by BJPâs dirty tricks.
Karan Thapar: You call them lies, but lets explore some of them in detail. Let us begin with the Pratibha Mahila Sahakari Bank. She was itâs chairperson and later its director. And even when she hasnât held those posts, she has been the critical person running the bank.
In 2003, when the Reserve Bank of India closed the bank, it commented â âallowing the bank to carry on banking business would be detrimental to the interest of present and future shareholders and hence itâs license is hereby cancelled.â
Should a woman who virtually presided over a failed bank be the next President of India?
A B Bardhan: Well, so many institutions fail. Thatâs quite another question. But she was the chairperson only for a certain period.
Karan Thapar: I am afraid I have to correct you.
A B Bardhan: Facts have been proved before.
Karan Thapar: You are talking about facts, let me draw your attention to Board Resolution number 23 of the Pratibha Mahila Sahakari Bank passed on January 22, 2002. It authorised Pratibha Patil to appoint the Board of Directors and the Chief Executive. So even when she wasnât the chairperson, she was running the bank.
A B Bardhan: As the promoter and most important person there.
Karan Thapar: Regardless of what capacity, she was running the bank. When she fails, she takes responsibility for the failure.
A B Bardhan: I think the full answer has been given. Documents have shown that she was the chairperson only for a certain period. But if thereâs any responsibility that accrues to her, the Reserve Bank is there to take note of it.
Karan Thapar: In fact itâs not just the Reserve Bank, Iâm afraid Pratibha Patil stands accused in front of the Aurangabad Bench of the Bombay High Court, and she is charged with mismanagement of the bank and misappropriation of funds. Should a woman so accused in a High Court, be the next President of India?
A B Bardhan: When, how and who has challenged her? All types of litigations can come in now.
Karan Thapar: But the case has been admitted by the court. She is respondent number eight.
A B Bardhan: When was this case filed?
Karan Thapar: A couple of years ago.
A B Bardhan: Then why is she respondent number eight if she was the chairperson?
Karan Thapar: Because for the simple reason that all the other members of the board take precedence over her. But as I quoted to you on January 22 by Board Resolution number 23, she was authorised to appoint the directors and chief executive. She is the person running the bank.
A B Bardhan: I think you can go on to the next question because it so happens that so many banks and co-operatives fail. It only shows that she was not a very great executive director in all these economic affairs.
Karan Thapar: A woman who presided over a failed bank is the right choice for the President of India? Thatâs a bizarre decision.
A B Bardhan: A person who was charged with a hawala transaction, a person who was guilty of destroying a masjid (mosque), whose case was in court, wanted to be a Deputy Prime Minister.
Karan Thapar: So you have chosen Pratibha Patil in competition with L K Advani?
A B Bardhan: It is only he and his party who are levelling all these charges. Itâs a fascistic trick to throw sufficient mud at a person so that some of it might stick.
Karan Thapar: Iâm afraid itâs no mud. Letâs look more carefully at the charges. The Pratibha Mahila Sahakari Bank was set up as a co-operative to help empower poor women. At the very top of the list are her brothers, her sisters-in-law, nephews and nieces. A sum of Rs 2.25 crore was loaned to family members, and is now a non-performing asset. A further sum of Rs 41 lakh itâs alleged has been waived as interest to her family members. Isnât this corruption and nepotism?
A B Bardhan: Itâs neither corruption nor nepotism.
Karan Thapar: What is it then?
A B Bardhan: You see in a co-operative bank, if members of the family are there, what is there so surprising?
Karan Thapar: A co-operative bank that is meant to empower women has loans given to her brothers and her nephews.
A B Bardhan: Some of them have paid back as far as I know.
Karan Thapar: Iâm afraid you are talking about the interest waivers that have perhaps been questioned by the Congress party. I can show you a list published by the Reserve Bank of India, which lists Dilip Patil â her brother, Kishore Dilip Singh Patil â her nephew, Randhir Singh Dilip Singh Rajput â her nephew, Rajeshwari Kishore Singh Patil â her niece, Uddhav Singh Rajput â her brotherâs kin.
The total number of loans amounts to Rs 2.25 crore. And those on the list have been defaulted on and are officially recorded as non-performing assets.
A B Bardhan: Who else, but we have exposed all the non-performing assets that have been there.
Karan Thapar: But today you are giving her strange promotion to Presidency.
A B Bardhan: And let me tell you that all those people who are guilty of that are now holding high posts. And not only from the Congress or our side, but many other sides too.
Karan Thapar: You are not answering my question. You are justifying her on the grounds of lower standards of other politicians. Thatâs a strange argument.
A B Bardhan: Iâve never justified her as a very great economic expert or as a great chief executive of a bank.
Karan Thapar: What about the woman of integrity? That is what is being questioned here.
A B Bardhan: Who has questioned her integrity?
Karan Thapar: The Union. Let me quote to youâ¦
A B Bardhan: It is the BMS Union and I know that Union very well.
Karan Thapar: I am afraid it is the Union regardless of what sort of polemic you use to brand it with. The Pratibha Mahila Sahakari Karamchari Sang (union) has said in a memo to the management dated December 3, 2001, and I quote â âFounder chairperson Pratibha Patil has facilitated the loot of large sums of money in the form of unlawful loans without surety extended to her own relatives, and to people close to her.â
As a former general secretary of the All India Trade Union Congress, are you disregarding the opinion of fellow union leaders?
A B Bardhan: I know this union. It is a BMS union led by the BJP. And it is the starting point of all the slander against her.
Karan Thapar: It was the official union of a bank headed by a Congress woman and founded, as you say, by a Congress woman recognised by that woman and her management. It is the legitimate voice of the depositors in this instance.
A B Bardhan: You will have to refer it to the all India Bank Employees Association which is the major union of bank employees in this country.
Karan Thapar: Itâs a very interesting quibble that you are coming up with. I donât think it fits well in the mouth of a former general secretary of the All India Trade Union Congress. But itâs your prerogative.
Let me draw your attention to some of the other charges, not just by the union this time, but endorsed by the liquidator appointed by the Reserve Bank. Itâs alleged that Pratibha's brother Dilip Singh Patil has acquired in his house a bank phone that he used for his personal stock market transactions, and he ran up a bill of Rs 20 lakh. It's alleged that unsecured, and therefore, unlawful loans were given to her sugar factory, which later had to default. Itâs alleged that her relatives were given jobs in the bank in disregard of SC and ST reservations.
A B Bardhan: You will have to prove that all she did was for her brother, and she is responsible for what her brother did. After all she is not her brother's keeper. If her brother is guilty of any crimes, he should be prosecuted.
Karan Thapar: She is effectively the lady who ran the bank when she wasnât chairperson. The Board Resolution I quoted proved that. If her brother, nephews and nieces become beneficiaries and then defaulters, is it happening without her knowledge? That is too much of a coincidence to be possible.
A B Bardhan: I wish that in future all those who are heads of banks and other economic institutions will see that none of their kin get employed.
Karan Thapar: Let me put it a little differently. The money in the Pratibha Mahila Sahakari Bank was the deposit of poor women. It was their hard-earned earnings for a rainy day. Who took the loans and ran away with the money? Her brothers, nephews and nieces. Can you as a Communist support that a woman of this background becomes President?
A B Bardhan: I do not support any non-performing assets and any loans taken this way.
Karan Thapar: Then why donât you reconsider her nomination?
A B Bardhan: But what has that got to do with her I want to know.
Karan Thapar: Because she was the person running the bank in effect.
A B Bardhan: If she had anything to do with this, by now there would have been so many criminal cases against her.
Karan Thapar: But there is a case filed against her in the Aurangabad Bench of the Bombay High Court. She is respondent number eight. She is accused of mismanagement of the bank and misappropriation of funds.
A B Bardhan: They served her a notice. They served her a chargesheet?
Karan Thapar: The case has been pending in court for the last two years. Let me quote to you Vijay Kumar Kakade, former president of the Employeesâ Union, he says â âPratibha Patil was responsible for this. We want to tell our countrymen that such a person is going to occupy the highest office.â
A B Bardhan: This of course is the latest statement by one BJP fellow.
Karan Thapar: This is not a BJP fellow. He is Vijay Kumar Kakade, President of the Pratibha Mahila Sahakari Bank Karamchari Sangh.
A B Bardhan: Which as I have said is a BJP unit.
Karan Thapar: So does that make such a big difference? That is the officially recognised union.
A B Bardhan: It makes a difference because they are out to malign a Presidential candidate.
Karan Thapar: But these statements were made much earlier. Let me quote to you a letter written by the President of the Bank, the Vice-President of the Bank and Secretary, all three top officials, on March 13, 2002. At least five years before her nomination, even before she became governor of Rajasthan. This is what they wrote â âThere is a threat to our lives and to the lives of our family members from you. You have already communicated this to us in our meeting with you. If something happens to us accidentally or otherwise, you will be responsible.â
Can you as a formal general secretary of the AITUC support as President a woman who threatens allegedly trade union leaders?
A B Bardhan: What are you trying to say Karan? I know of people who threaten, conspire.
Karan Thapar: But do you make them President?
A B Bardhan: And this simple woman who has not been charged of any crime, who has never been dragged to a court.
Karan Thapar: Simple if sheâs giving loans like that to her brothers, nephews and nieces? And she is facing a case in the Bombay High Court. She is in court already.
A B Bardhan: Who is there already? I might be in the court as the 20th respondent.
Karan Thapar: If tomorrow should she be elected and the High Court finds her guilty, how embarrassed will you be?
A B Bardhan: Let us see.
Karan Thapar: You are prepared to take the risk?
A B Bardhan: The people who are leveling charges now never blinked an eye when one would-be prime minister was charged and tried in court.
Karan Thapar: Mr Bardhan, these charges are levied by P B Mathur, Executive Director of the Reserve Bank of India in a report on February 25, 2003, when he closed down the bank. Heâs the one who says the bank has been mismanaged. It is his liquidator that has identified the non-performing assets and connected them to her family members.
A B Bardhan: Itâs her family members. How does it indict her?
Karan Thapar: You see it as coincidence that while she ran the bank, her family members got loans and then defaulted?
A B Bardhan: My bother commits some crime, and Iâm responsible for it? Iâm not my brotherâs keeper.
Karan Thapar: But itâs a different matter if you happen to be heading the bank at the time when the brother gets loans or if youâre effectively running the bank. Thatâs what I am pointing out.
A B Bardhan: She was the head only for sometime.
Karan Thapar: I quoted the resolution which shows that she was heading the board of directors.
A B Bardhan: Itâs not very correct.
Karan Thapar: How do you know itâs not very correct?
A B Bardhan: Facts have been put on record by Priyaranjan Dasmunsi (Parliamentary Affairs Minister) showing that she wasâ¦
Karan Thapar: Iâm afraid those are partial facts. They are questionable facts. I am quoting to you facts put on record by the RBI.
A B Bardhan: You only pick on some facts. So you are a pick and choose man.
Karan Thapar: Let me put it like this. Regardless of the facts which you or I pick on, what she stands accused of is a heinous set of imputations on her integrity, sincerity and character. Should she not at least come forward and defend herself?
A B Bardhan: Iâm quite sure she will defend herself.
Karan Thapar: She hasnât as yet.
A B Bardhan: But why should she? Just because somebody levies a charge?
Karan Thapar: Because her integrity is being impugned.
A B Bardhan: She will reply.
Karan Thapar: When?
A B Bardhan: After the nomination is over.
Karan Thapar: Why after? Why not before?
A B Bardhan: Why before?
Karan Thapar: Because the advantage of doing it afterwards is that itâs too late to withdraw. In other words you want it to become a fait accompli?
A B Bardhan: Somebody raises a charge, somebody raises a howl, somebody reduces it the most degrading episode and then you want her to withdraw for that? Let somebody else withdraw who stands as an independent candidate.
Karan Thapar: You refuse to accept the seriousness of charges or the fact that she owes a responsibility not to the country, but to herself.
A B Bardhan: I take no responsibility for whatever she might have done or her family might have done.
Karan Thapar: But you still nominate her to President?
A B Bardhan: I am only responsible for supporting her candidature.
Karan Thapar: And I am pointing out that you are supporting someone knowing that she faces hideous and serious charges.
A B Bardhan: And I am telling you that no such charges were levied when she was the minister, MLA, deputy chairperson of the Rajya Sabha or when she the governor of Rajasthan.
Karan Thapar: So what? Theyâve been provoked before the nomination, that doesnât mean they are invalid.
A B Bardhan: During all that period there was the BJP rule in the Centre and they did nothing about it.
Karan Thapar: Speaking in the Maharashtra Assembly as health minister on December 10, 1975, Mrs Pratibha Patil said we are thinking of forcible sterilisation of people with hereditary diseases. First of all, do you approve of forcible sterilisation?
A B Bardhan: I don't, I don't, but that doesn't mean I agree with everything she does or says.
Karan Thapar: Letâs explore this a little further. People with hereditary diseases include people with heart disorders, infertility, diabetes, even people with bad sight and bad hearing. Should such people be forcibly sterilised?
A B Bardhan: I don't think there should be forcible sterilisation of at any stage.
Karan Thapar: So, you completely disagree with her?
A B Bardhan: I disagreed with this whole policy of Congress at one stage.
Karan Thapar: Then how come such a woman who said this in the Assembly - it is recorded in the Assembly records - is your nominee for President?
A B Bardhan: She is not going to forcibly sterilise anybody, she is not going to follow those policies, and she is not called upon to.
Karan Thapar: But she stood for it. Sheâs never recanted. She hasnât apologised.
A B Bardhan: We are electing a President within the framework of the Indian Constitution.
Karan Thapar: But she still has views and beliefs. She has not recanted or apologised.
A B Bardhan: Iâm not called upon to support her views and beliefs.
Karan Thapar: Should she clear the air and recant and apologise for this?
A B Bardhan: Why should she?
Karan Thapar: So she stands by it and you are happy to support her?
A B Bardhan: Many wrong things, mistaken things have been said and done by the Congress and more so by the BJP.
Karan Thapar: Mr Bardhan this is not just a wrong thing. To many people Pratibha Patilâs comments sound as if she is advocating something similar to Hitlerâs 1933 âLaw for the Prevention of Heriditary Diseased Offspringâ. And that, as you know, was central to his plan for a master race. Pratibha Patilâs views sound uncannily similar. Should she not at least recant?
A B Bardhan: I admire the way you are trying to connect her with Hitler. If thereâs anything to be connected with Hitler it is that lie factory of the BJP.
Karan Thapar: So youâre prepared to forget and forgive even though she may stand by it?
A B Bardhan: I donât know whether she will stand by it.
Karan Thapar: But if you donât know whether sheâll stand by it shouldnât she publicly say she has recanted?
A B Bardhan: Anyway, itâs not the President who will lay down the policy.
Karan Thapar: May be, but this could be a President who has these views. She will be the symbol of India.
A B Bardhan: Many people in this country from the BJP, Congress and many other parties believe in godmen, godwomen, and God knows what else.
Karan Thapar: The point is you are not choosing many people such as that to be the President. You have chosen Pratibha Patil. Are you embarrassed by her views on forced sterilisation?
A B Bardhan: I donât agree with them. Thatâs all.
Karan Thapar: So shouldnât she clear the air and apologise or, at least, recant?
A B Bardhan: For everything that has been said in the past?
Karan Thapar: Why not?
A B Bardhan: There was a policy of forcible sterilisation followed even in the Emergency. Should she apologise for that?
Karan Thapar: May be but should she not clear the air before she becomes the President?
A B Bardhan: Why? Because sheâs not going to follow those policies and sheâs not called upon to lay down the policy.
Karan Thapar: Let me call upon your attention to something that she declared on June 17. She has made it clear that she believes in divine spirits. On June 17 she said that she had had a conversation with a man who died in 1969 because the man had manifested himself in the body of a woman.
You are laughing because itâs hilarious. But do you acknowledge that such a woman should be President?
A B Bardhan: Most of your leaders be the Congress or the BJP believe in godmen, spirits and astrologists.
Karan Thapar: But you are not promoting most of them to be Presidents. You are promoting her.
A B Bardhan: I am not called upon to follow all that.
Karan Thapar: Do you think Pratibha Patil has the rational, forward looking liberal temperament that a President needs?
A B Bardhan: Where have we laid down the condition that she should be a rationalist?
Karan Thapar: So you could have an orthodox, reactionary, backward looking person?
A B Bardhan: No in matters of political policy it is another thing.
Karan Thapar: What about matter of pronouncements in the public? If she starts making speeches about speaking to men who are dead 40 years ago, would you be happy if your President did that?
A B Bardhan: Iâm quite sure it will not be done.
Karan Thapar: How do you know? She did it right now.
A B Bardhan: Iâm quite sure when she becomes the President, she will not do it.
Karan Thapar: How do you know that?
A B Bardhan: As a President she will have to follow the policies laid down by the Government. We have a Parliamentary democracy here not a Presidential election.
Karan Thapar: They say Caesarâs wife should be above suspicion. Doesnât that apply to the President in India?
A B Bardhan: President of India is a Constitutional head.
Karan Thapar: So it can be suspected?
A B Bardhan: A Constitutional head is not called upon to lay policy.
Karan Thapar: The Constitutional head is the symbol of the country. Should the symbol of the country be under suspicion?
A B Bardhan: The Constitutional head is the symbol of the country whose policies will be laid down by the government.
Karan Thapar: The one thing that the Communist Party has is moral authority. No longer do you have political influence. Why are you squandering your moral authority supporting a woman who is not fit for the top turf? Why are donât you admit you made a mistake nominating her?
A B Bardhan: Our moral authority is demonstrated in the fact that we insisted that no communal person or belonging to a communal party, to the RSS and the BJP should be nominated.
Karan Thapar: So you can have a potentially corrupt person, instead you can have a woman who stands for forcible sterilisation, or have an orthodox woman who believes in spirits.
A B Bardhan: She has more than 40 years of political career.
Karan Thapar: Alright Mr Bardhan, you can have the last word. A pleasure talking to you. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->'I take no responsibility for what Pratibha does'
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Karan Thapar: Hello and welcome to Devilâs Advocate. The Left has claimed credit for proposing Pratibha Patil as a candidate for the Presidency of India. So how do they react to the serious allegation she faces? Thatâs the issue I shall raise with the General Secretary of the Communist Party of India (CPI) A B Bardhan.
Mr Bardhan when Pratibha Patil was first suggested as the UPA-Left candidate for the Presidency, you said â âI was one of those who jumped on it because it was a very good name.â Today, after the spate of newspaper stories questioning her integrity and her beliefs, do you think you have chosen the wrong person for the Presidency?
A B Bardhan: I never thought you will fall for the lies manufactured by BJPâs dirty tricks.
Karan Thapar: You call them lies, but lets explore some of them in detail. Let us begin with the Pratibha Mahila Sahakari Bank. She was itâs chairperson and later its director. And even when she hasnât held those posts, she has been the critical person running the bank.
In 2003, when the Reserve Bank of India closed the bank, it commented â âallowing the bank to carry on banking business would be detrimental to the interest of present and future shareholders and hence itâs license is hereby cancelled.â
Should a woman who virtually presided over a failed bank be the next President of India?
A B Bardhan: Well, so many institutions fail. Thatâs quite another question. But she was the chairperson only for a certain period.
Karan Thapar: I am afraid I have to correct you.
A B Bardhan: Facts have been proved before.
Karan Thapar: You are talking about facts, let me draw your attention to Board Resolution number 23 of the Pratibha Mahila Sahakari Bank passed on January 22, 2002. It authorised Pratibha Patil to appoint the Board of Directors and the Chief Executive. So even when she wasnât the chairperson, she was running the bank.
A B Bardhan: As the promoter and most important person there.
Karan Thapar: Regardless of what capacity, she was running the bank. When she fails, she takes responsibility for the failure.
A B Bardhan: I think the full answer has been given. Documents have shown that she was the chairperson only for a certain period. But if thereâs any responsibility that accrues to her, the Reserve Bank is there to take note of it.
Karan Thapar: In fact itâs not just the Reserve Bank, Iâm afraid Pratibha Patil stands accused in front of the Aurangabad Bench of the Bombay High Court, and she is charged with mismanagement of the bank and misappropriation of funds. Should a woman so accused in a High Court, be the next President of India?
A B Bardhan: When, how and who has challenged her? All types of litigations can come in now.
Karan Thapar: But the case has been admitted by the court. She is respondent number eight.
A B Bardhan: When was this case filed?
Karan Thapar: A couple of years ago.
A B Bardhan: Then why is she respondent number eight if she was the chairperson?
Karan Thapar: Because for the simple reason that all the other members of the board take precedence over her. But as I quoted to you on January 22 by Board Resolution number 23, she was authorised to appoint the directors and chief executive. She is the person running the bank.
A B Bardhan: I think you can go on to the next question because it so happens that so many banks and co-operatives fail. It only shows that she was not a very great executive director in all these economic affairs.
Karan Thapar: A woman who presided over a failed bank is the right choice for the President of India? Thatâs a bizarre decision.
A B Bardhan: A person who was charged with a hawala transaction, a person who was guilty of destroying a masjid (mosque), whose case was in court, wanted to be a Deputy Prime Minister.
Karan Thapar: So you have chosen Pratibha Patil in competition with L K Advani?
A B Bardhan: It is only he and his party who are levelling all these charges. Itâs a fascistic trick to throw sufficient mud at a person so that some of it might stick.
Karan Thapar: Iâm afraid itâs no mud. Letâs look more carefully at the charges. The Pratibha Mahila Sahakari Bank was set up as a co-operative to help empower poor women. At the very top of the list are her brothers, her sisters-in-law, nephews and nieces. A sum of Rs 2.25 crore was loaned to family members, and is now a non-performing asset. A further sum of Rs 41 lakh itâs alleged has been waived as interest to her family members. Isnât this corruption and nepotism?
A B Bardhan: Itâs neither corruption nor nepotism.
Karan Thapar: What is it then?
A B Bardhan: You see in a co-operative bank, if members of the family are there, what is there so surprising?
Karan Thapar: A co-operative bank that is meant to empower women has loans given to her brothers and her nephews.
A B Bardhan: Some of them have paid back as far as I know.
Karan Thapar: Iâm afraid you are talking about the interest waivers that have perhaps been questioned by the Congress party. I can show you a list published by the Reserve Bank of India, which lists Dilip Patil â her brother, Kishore Dilip Singh Patil â her nephew, Randhir Singh Dilip Singh Rajput â her nephew, Rajeshwari Kishore Singh Patil â her niece, Uddhav Singh Rajput â her brotherâs kin.
The total number of loans amounts to Rs 2.25 crore. And those on the list have been defaulted on and are officially recorded as non-performing assets.
A B Bardhan: Who else, but we have exposed all the non-performing assets that have been there.
Karan Thapar: But today you are giving her strange promotion to Presidency.
A B Bardhan: And let me tell you that all those people who are guilty of that are now holding high posts. And not only from the Congress or our side, but many other sides too.
Karan Thapar: You are not answering my question. You are justifying her on the grounds of lower standards of other politicians. Thatâs a strange argument.
A B Bardhan: Iâve never justified her as a very great economic expert or as a great chief executive of a bank.
Karan Thapar: What about the woman of integrity? That is what is being questioned here.
A B Bardhan: Who has questioned her integrity?
Karan Thapar: The Union. Let me quote to youâ¦
A B Bardhan: It is the BMS Union and I know that Union very well.
Karan Thapar: I am afraid it is the Union regardless of what sort of polemic you use to brand it with. The Pratibha Mahila Sahakari Karamchari Sang (union) has said in a memo to the management dated December 3, 2001, and I quote â âFounder chairperson Pratibha Patil has facilitated the loot of large sums of money in the form of unlawful loans without surety extended to her own relatives, and to people close to her.â
As a former general secretary of the All India Trade Union Congress, are you disregarding the opinion of fellow union leaders?
A B Bardhan: I know this union. It is a BMS union led by the BJP. And it is the starting point of all the slander against her.
Karan Thapar: It was the official union of a bank headed by a Congress woman and founded, as you say, by a Congress woman recognised by that woman and her management. It is the legitimate voice of the depositors in this instance.
A B Bardhan: You will have to refer it to the all India Bank Employees Association which is the major union of bank employees in this country.
Karan Thapar: Itâs a very interesting quibble that you are coming up with. I donât think it fits well in the mouth of a former general secretary of the All India Trade Union Congress. But itâs your prerogative.
Let me draw your attention to some of the other charges, not just by the union this time, but endorsed by the liquidator appointed by the Reserve Bank. Itâs alleged that Pratibha's brother Dilip Singh Patil has acquired in his house a bank phone that he used for his personal stock market transactions, and he ran up a bill of Rs 20 lakh. It's alleged that unsecured, and therefore, unlawful loans were given to her sugar factory, which later had to default. Itâs alleged that her relatives were given jobs in the bank in disregard of SC and ST reservations.
A B Bardhan: You will have to prove that all she did was for her brother, and she is responsible for what her brother did. After all she is not her brother's keeper. If her brother is guilty of any crimes, he should be prosecuted.
Karan Thapar: She is effectively the lady who ran the bank when she wasnât chairperson. The Board Resolution I quoted proved that. If her brother, nephews and nieces become beneficiaries and then defaulters, is it happening without her knowledge? That is too much of a coincidence to be possible.
A B Bardhan: I wish that in future all those who are heads of banks and other economic institutions will see that none of their kin get employed.
Karan Thapar: Let me put it a little differently. The money in the Pratibha Mahila Sahakari Bank was the deposit of poor women. It was their hard-earned earnings for a rainy day. Who took the loans and ran away with the money? Her brothers, nephews and nieces. Can you as a Communist support that a woman of this background becomes President?
A B Bardhan: I do not support any non-performing assets and any loans taken this way.
Karan Thapar: Then why donât you reconsider her nomination?
A B Bardhan: But what has that got to do with her I want to know.
Karan Thapar: Because she was the person running the bank in effect.
A B Bardhan: If she had anything to do with this, by now there would have been so many criminal cases against her.
Karan Thapar: But there is a case filed against her in the Aurangabad Bench of the Bombay High Court. She is respondent number eight. She is accused of mismanagement of the bank and misappropriation of funds.
A B Bardhan: They served her a notice. They served her a chargesheet?
Karan Thapar: The case has been pending in court for the last two years. Let me quote to you Vijay Kumar Kakade, former president of the Employeesâ Union, he says â âPratibha Patil was responsible for this. We want to tell our countrymen that such a person is going to occupy the highest office.â
A B Bardhan: This of course is the latest statement by one BJP fellow.
Karan Thapar: This is not a BJP fellow. He is Vijay Kumar Kakade, President of the Pratibha Mahila Sahakari Bank Karamchari Sangh.
A B Bardhan: Which as I have said is a BJP unit.
Karan Thapar: So does that make such a big difference? That is the officially recognised union.
A B Bardhan: It makes a difference because they are out to malign a Presidential candidate.
Karan Thapar: But these statements were made much earlier. Let me quote to you a letter written by the President of the Bank, the Vice-President of the Bank and Secretary, all three top officials, on March 13, 2002. At least five years before her nomination, even before she became governor of Rajasthan. This is what they wrote â âThere is a threat to our lives and to the lives of our family members from you. You have already communicated this to us in our meeting with you. If something happens to us accidentally or otherwise, you will be responsible.â
Can you as a formal general secretary of the AITUC support as President a woman who threatens allegedly trade union leaders?
A B Bardhan: What are you trying to say Karan? I know of people who threaten, conspire.
Karan Thapar: But do you make them President?
A B Bardhan: And this simple woman who has not been charged of any crime, who has never been dragged to a court.
Karan Thapar: Simple if sheâs giving loans like that to her brothers, nephews and nieces? And she is facing a case in the Bombay High Court. She is in court already.
A B Bardhan: Who is there already? I might be in the court as the 20th respondent.
Karan Thapar: If tomorrow should she be elected and the High Court finds her guilty, how embarrassed will you be?
A B Bardhan: Let us see.
Karan Thapar: You are prepared to take the risk?
A B Bardhan: The people who are leveling charges now never blinked an eye when one would-be prime minister was charged and tried in court.
Karan Thapar: Mr Bardhan, these charges are levied by P B Mathur, Executive Director of the Reserve Bank of India in a report on February 25, 2003, when he closed down the bank. Heâs the one who says the bank has been mismanaged. It is his liquidator that has identified the non-performing assets and connected them to her family members.
A B Bardhan: Itâs her family members. How does it indict her?
Karan Thapar: You see it as coincidence that while she ran the bank, her family members got loans and then defaulted?
A B Bardhan: My bother commits some crime, and Iâm responsible for it? Iâm not my brotherâs keeper.
Karan Thapar: But itâs a different matter if you happen to be heading the bank at the time when the brother gets loans or if youâre effectively running the bank. Thatâs what I am pointing out.
A B Bardhan: She was the head only for sometime.
Karan Thapar: I quoted the resolution which shows that she was heading the board of directors.
A B Bardhan: Itâs not very correct.
Karan Thapar: How do you know itâs not very correct?
A B Bardhan: Facts have been put on record by Priyaranjan Dasmunsi (Parliamentary Affairs Minister) showing that she wasâ¦
Karan Thapar: Iâm afraid those are partial facts. They are questionable facts. I am quoting to you facts put on record by the RBI.
A B Bardhan: You only pick on some facts. So you are a pick and choose man.
Karan Thapar: Let me put it like this. Regardless of the facts which you or I pick on, what she stands accused of is a heinous set of imputations on her integrity, sincerity and character. Should she not at least come forward and defend herself?
A B Bardhan: Iâm quite sure she will defend herself.
Karan Thapar: She hasnât as yet.
A B Bardhan: But why should she? Just because somebody levies a charge?
Karan Thapar: Because her integrity is being impugned.
A B Bardhan: She will reply.
Karan Thapar: When?
A B Bardhan: After the nomination is over.
Karan Thapar: Why after? Why not before?
A B Bardhan: Why before?
Karan Thapar: Because the advantage of doing it afterwards is that itâs too late to withdraw. In other words you want it to become a fait accompli?
A B Bardhan: Somebody raises a charge, somebody raises a howl, somebody reduces it the most degrading episode and then you want her to withdraw for that? Let somebody else withdraw who stands as an independent candidate.
Karan Thapar: You refuse to accept the seriousness of charges or the fact that she owes a responsibility not to the country, but to herself.
A B Bardhan: I take no responsibility for whatever she might have done or her family might have done.
Karan Thapar: But you still nominate her to President?
A B Bardhan: I am only responsible for supporting her candidature.
Karan Thapar: And I am pointing out that you are supporting someone knowing that she faces hideous and serious charges.
A B Bardhan: And I am telling you that no such charges were levied when she was the minister, MLA, deputy chairperson of the Rajya Sabha or when she the governor of Rajasthan.
Karan Thapar: So what? Theyâve been provoked before the nomination, that doesnât mean they are invalid.
A B Bardhan: During all that period there was the BJP rule in the Centre and they did nothing about it.
Karan Thapar: Speaking in the Maharashtra Assembly as health minister on December 10, 1975, Mrs Pratibha Patil said we are thinking of forcible sterilisation of people with hereditary diseases. First of all, do you approve of forcible sterilisation?
A B Bardhan: I don't, I don't, but that doesn't mean I agree with everything she does or says.
Karan Thapar: Letâs explore this a little further. People with hereditary diseases include people with heart disorders, infertility, diabetes, even people with bad sight and bad hearing. Should such people be forcibly sterilised?
A B Bardhan: I don't think there should be forcible sterilisation of at any stage.
Karan Thapar: So, you completely disagree with her?
A B Bardhan: I disagreed with this whole policy of Congress at one stage.
Karan Thapar: Then how come such a woman who said this in the Assembly - it is recorded in the Assembly records - is your nominee for President?
A B Bardhan: She is not going to forcibly sterilise anybody, she is not going to follow those policies, and she is not called upon to.
Karan Thapar: But she stood for it. Sheâs never recanted. She hasnât apologised.
A B Bardhan: We are electing a President within the framework of the Indian Constitution.
Karan Thapar: But she still has views and beliefs. She has not recanted or apologised.
A B Bardhan: Iâm not called upon to support her views and beliefs.
Karan Thapar: Should she clear the air and recant and apologise for this?
A B Bardhan: Why should she?
Karan Thapar: So she stands by it and you are happy to support her?
A B Bardhan: Many wrong things, mistaken things have been said and done by the Congress and more so by the BJP.
Karan Thapar: Mr Bardhan this is not just a wrong thing. To many people Pratibha Patilâs comments sound as if she is advocating something similar to Hitlerâs 1933 âLaw for the Prevention of Heriditary Diseased Offspringâ. And that, as you know, was central to his plan for a master race. Pratibha Patilâs views sound uncannily similar. Should she not at least recant?
A B Bardhan: I admire the way you are trying to connect her with Hitler. If thereâs anything to be connected with Hitler it is that lie factory of the BJP.
Karan Thapar: So youâre prepared to forget and forgive even though she may stand by it?
A B Bardhan: I donât know whether she will stand by it.
Karan Thapar: But if you donât know whether sheâll stand by it shouldnât she publicly say she has recanted?
A B Bardhan: Anyway, itâs not the President who will lay down the policy.
Karan Thapar: May be, but this could be a President who has these views. She will be the symbol of India.
A B Bardhan: Many people in this country from the BJP, Congress and many other parties believe in godmen, godwomen, and God knows what else.
Karan Thapar: The point is you are not choosing many people such as that to be the President. You have chosen Pratibha Patil. Are you embarrassed by her views on forced sterilisation?
A B Bardhan: I donât agree with them. Thatâs all.
Karan Thapar: So shouldnât she clear the air and apologise or, at least, recant?
A B Bardhan: For everything that has been said in the past?
Karan Thapar: Why not?
A B Bardhan: There was a policy of forcible sterilisation followed even in the Emergency. Should she apologise for that?
Karan Thapar: May be but should she not clear the air before she becomes the President?
A B Bardhan: Why? Because sheâs not going to follow those policies and sheâs not called upon to lay down the policy.
Karan Thapar: Let me call upon your attention to something that she declared on June 17. She has made it clear that she believes in divine spirits. On June 17 she said that she had had a conversation with a man who died in 1969 because the man had manifested himself in the body of a woman.
You are laughing because itâs hilarious. But do you acknowledge that such a woman should be President?
A B Bardhan: Most of your leaders be the Congress or the BJP believe in godmen, spirits and astrologists.
Karan Thapar: But you are not promoting most of them to be Presidents. You are promoting her.
A B Bardhan: I am not called upon to follow all that.
Karan Thapar: Do you think Pratibha Patil has the rational, forward looking liberal temperament that a President needs?
A B Bardhan: Where have we laid down the condition that she should be a rationalist?
Karan Thapar: So you could have an orthodox, reactionary, backward looking person?
A B Bardhan: No in matters of political policy it is another thing.
Karan Thapar: What about matter of pronouncements in the public? If she starts making speeches about speaking to men who are dead 40 years ago, would you be happy if your President did that?
A B Bardhan: Iâm quite sure it will not be done.
Karan Thapar: How do you know? She did it right now.
A B Bardhan: Iâm quite sure when she becomes the President, she will not do it.
Karan Thapar: How do you know that?
A B Bardhan: As a President she will have to follow the policies laid down by the Government. We have a Parliamentary democracy here not a Presidential election.
Karan Thapar: They say Caesarâs wife should be above suspicion. Doesnât that apply to the President in India?
A B Bardhan: President of India is a Constitutional head.
Karan Thapar: So it can be suspected?
A B Bardhan: A Constitutional head is not called upon to lay policy.
Karan Thapar: The Constitutional head is the symbol of the country. Should the symbol of the country be under suspicion?
A B Bardhan: The Constitutional head is the symbol of the country whose policies will be laid down by the government.
Karan Thapar: The one thing that the Communist Party has is moral authority. No longer do you have political influence. Why are you squandering your moral authority supporting a woman who is not fit for the top turf? Why are donât you admit you made a mistake nominating her?
A B Bardhan: Our moral authority is demonstrated in the fact that we insisted that no communal person or belonging to a communal party, to the RSS and the BJP should be nominated.
Karan Thapar: So you can have a potentially corrupt person, instead you can have a woman who stands for forcible sterilisation, or have an orthodox woman who believes in spirits.
A B Bardhan: She has more than 40 years of political career.
Karan Thapar: Alright Mr Bardhan, you can have the last word. A pleasure talking to you. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->