<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><span style='color:red'>Should we accept the tribal gods of others?</span>
By M.S.N. Menon
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->[right][snapback]70706[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I want to harp on some more about this.
Ashok Kumar 5 posts above wrote some points on "Re: Indra being tribal God of Indians". Wanted to say more myself, but he beat me to it (thank goodness). Nevertheless, wish to add a few things, however superfluous.
This verse about Indra is from the Rg Vedam I think:
"Good Lord of wealth is he to whom all Aryas, Dasas here belong."
Even <i>were</i> we forced to count the first ('Arya') as some ideologically-identified tribe, that makes Indra the God to whom all Aryas and Dasas belong, even though the same Rg Vedam when taken literally makes it out that the Iranians (Dasas) and Vedic Indians were fighting. Regardless of their enmity, Indra was father to both. How untribal Mahendran was, even <i>if</i> the peoples in question might (?) have been very tribal.
Yes, yes, I know, Vedic Indians were all the time praying to Indra to give them strength in their fight against the Dasas, Dasyus and other enemies. Quelle surprise that people would call on their Gods in or before battle (example: Zoroastrian battle cry of Hurrah - short for 'Ahura!' apparently). Of course, that does not mean that Indra might not have watched over both affectionately so long as both were behaving.
I don't need to repeat what every Hindu knows: the compassionate Mahendra is the friend of all outsiders, rejects, loners and lone wolves. Maybe that makes all these introverts into a tribe of their own... a global 'tribe' of Remis, I guess. (Remi 'Alone in the World' is a character from a French book: it's about a lonely kid separated from his family by circumstance.)
Oooh look, here's another 'tribal' Hindu God, Shiva:
Jambhukeshwara. Tamil people will know who he is, others might have heard of him from the song Jambupathe - his temple is famous for many events concerning this Lingam which is one of the Panchabhutams. One of the famous events is that of the Spider and the Elephant (often depicted next to the moorthy in paintings of the temple). In brief:
A Spider, living near the Lingam noticed an Elephant coming toward the Lingam. Afraid that this big dawdling thing would harm its Lord the sacred Lingam, the Spider created a strong web to cover it. The Elephant, which had come to do Puja to its beloved Ishtadevam saw the web and was mortified that a puny, unenlightened spider dared to obstruct the sacred Lingam with its threads, so the Elephant slashed through the web with its trunk. The Spider, more certain than ever that the elephant was there to cause damage seeing as how it had waved its trunk destructively about and broken the protective web, quickly made another web to shield the Lingam. Yet again, the Elephant - enraged at the insolent spider's audacity - slashed through the web. This went on and on, both certain that they were acting in Shiva's best interest and for the preservation of the beauteous Lingam, until finally the wonderful Mahadeva himself manifested before them. He praised and blessed them both for their great devotion to him, and told them that neither was wrong in trying to protect him, but also that neither was in fact ever intent on harming or disrespecting the Lingam as the other had imagined.
Needless to add, one can safely assume that at the end of their lives both the Arachnid and the Elephant got Moksham and went to Kailasa. The above - not an allegory (but can't stop anyone from reading it that way if they can't swallow it by other means) - makes it so obvious that Shiva is the tribal God of the Spider Tribe. Oh, and the Elephant Tribe. And the Bhoota Tribe too. And as Pashupati - the Lord of all creatures - he is the God of the Creature Tribe, including the critter penning this post at present.
Now, I must not forget the Divine Mother. She's known to look after lost babies and all babies really. So, I guess that makes her the God of the 'Baby Tribe'. And being Jagadamba, Mother of The All (the Universe), her tribe is.... Ooooh, I worked myself into a corner there, didn't I? Never mind. Moving on.
Coming to yet another 'tribal' God of the Hindoos. Here he is, saying something so obviously tribal that I must and shall repeat it:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In the Bhagavad Gita, Lord Krishna assures the adherents of all religions that "those who pray with devotion to another god, it is to Me that they pray."<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> http://www.aumnamoshivaya.com/Hinduism.htm (Link name - Did someone confuse Om Namo Narayana(ya) with Om Namah Shivaya maybe; or is Om Namo Shivaya also a done thing?)
But how 'tribal' of Krishna in the Gita to declare such a thing! He says that if you were a truly peaceful Muslim praying to some mistaken idea of a benign allah (it's not in keeping with islamic scriptures I know, but it's true that there's such muslims around in India) that such offerings of love and sincerity were accepted by Krishna, Brahman. How petty of Krishna that he can't rise to biblical heights and declare himself to be a JEALOUS gawd and threaten you with Eternal DAMNATION if you were to ever think of having 'other Gods before you'. After all, that's the sign of a universal gawd apparently...
That annoying bluish butter-snatching Krishna needs a whole new definition of 'tribal' to do his statement justice. I suggest we call it 'universalist tribalism'. Because anything you do with affection and sincerity ends up with him.
That reminds me, this is very likely where C.S. Lewis got the idea from for the best line in his 7th book of the Chronicles of Narnia (The Last Battle). C.S. Lewis intended to write some christian books for kids, but he added lots of Greco-Roman Gods and motifs into his stories, to the extent that even Aslan, who was <i>meant</i> to be a jesus-for-Narnia, ended up becoming very pagan by the end.
In this final book of the series, the character Emeth - who had worshipped Tash (the evil demonic 'deity' from Narnia's neighbouring country) all his life - comes face to face with Aslan. See here the line in question:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->(Emeth
Alas, Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Lewis never got this from the bible, that much is certain.
Oh, I will allow that Lewis could have used common sense. Any universal God would and should say such a thing on the topic, were he/she to mention it at all (else it can safely be assumed - for instance, about The Grand Spirit of the native North Americans who also created all the universe and like a mother gave it life).
But christoislamism never was universal and the idea expressed above is alien to christoislamism. In fact, one can read the preposterous invention of narrow-minded man (jehovallah) declaring the direct opposite: 'Me me me and no one else - Or HELL!'
So C.S. Lewis' readers are in for a nasty shock when they turn to the babble after Chronicles of Narnia to find out whether jesus is anything like the pleasant fiction Aslan...
As for whether Lewis could have been influenced in the writing of his statement by the Gita or other Hindu ideas, consider that he was not unaware of Hinduism. He made several comments about it, including:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"For my own part, I have sometimes told my audience that the only two things really worth considering are Christianity and Hinduism (Islam is only the greatest of the Christian heresies, Buddhism only the greatest of the Hindu heresies. Real Paganism is dead. All that was best in Judaism and Platonism survives in Christianity)."
- C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock, "Christian Apologetics"<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Of course, this is wrong. The "only things worth considering" are everything except christoislamicommunazism. Christoislamism tried to kill all of 'paganism'. But no matter, the natural religions survive in spite of everything. And no, christianism did not imbibe anything properly, so that whatever has been plagiarised has also been perverted.
And of course, it goes without saying, Buddhism is not a heresy. Only christians could see things that way.
By M.S.N. Menon
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->[right][snapback]70706[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I want to harp on some more about this.
Ashok Kumar 5 posts above wrote some points on "Re: Indra being tribal God of Indians". Wanted to say more myself, but he beat me to it (thank goodness). Nevertheless, wish to add a few things, however superfluous.
This verse about Indra is from the Rg Vedam I think:
"Good Lord of wealth is he to whom all Aryas, Dasas here belong."
Even <i>were</i> we forced to count the first ('Arya') as some ideologically-identified tribe, that makes Indra the God to whom all Aryas and Dasas belong, even though the same Rg Vedam when taken literally makes it out that the Iranians (Dasas) and Vedic Indians were fighting. Regardless of their enmity, Indra was father to both. How untribal Mahendran was, even <i>if</i> the peoples in question might (?) have been very tribal.
Yes, yes, I know, Vedic Indians were all the time praying to Indra to give them strength in their fight against the Dasas, Dasyus and other enemies. Quelle surprise that people would call on their Gods in or before battle (example: Zoroastrian battle cry of Hurrah - short for 'Ahura!' apparently). Of course, that does not mean that Indra might not have watched over both affectionately so long as both were behaving.
I don't need to repeat what every Hindu knows: the compassionate Mahendra is the friend of all outsiders, rejects, loners and lone wolves. Maybe that makes all these introverts into a tribe of their own... a global 'tribe' of Remis, I guess. (Remi 'Alone in the World' is a character from a French book: it's about a lonely kid separated from his family by circumstance.)
Oooh look, here's another 'tribal' Hindu God, Shiva:
Jambhukeshwara. Tamil people will know who he is, others might have heard of him from the song Jambupathe - his temple is famous for many events concerning this Lingam which is one of the Panchabhutams. One of the famous events is that of the Spider and the Elephant (often depicted next to the moorthy in paintings of the temple). In brief:
A Spider, living near the Lingam noticed an Elephant coming toward the Lingam. Afraid that this big dawdling thing would harm its Lord the sacred Lingam, the Spider created a strong web to cover it. The Elephant, which had come to do Puja to its beloved Ishtadevam saw the web and was mortified that a puny, unenlightened spider dared to obstruct the sacred Lingam with its threads, so the Elephant slashed through the web with its trunk. The Spider, more certain than ever that the elephant was there to cause damage seeing as how it had waved its trunk destructively about and broken the protective web, quickly made another web to shield the Lingam. Yet again, the Elephant - enraged at the insolent spider's audacity - slashed through the web. This went on and on, both certain that they were acting in Shiva's best interest and for the preservation of the beauteous Lingam, until finally the wonderful Mahadeva himself manifested before them. He praised and blessed them both for their great devotion to him, and told them that neither was wrong in trying to protect him, but also that neither was in fact ever intent on harming or disrespecting the Lingam as the other had imagined.
Needless to add, one can safely assume that at the end of their lives both the Arachnid and the Elephant got Moksham and went to Kailasa. The above - not an allegory (but can't stop anyone from reading it that way if they can't swallow it by other means) - makes it so obvious that Shiva is the tribal God of the Spider Tribe. Oh, and the Elephant Tribe. And the Bhoota Tribe too. And as Pashupati - the Lord of all creatures - he is the God of the Creature Tribe, including the critter penning this post at present.
Now, I must not forget the Divine Mother. She's known to look after lost babies and all babies really. So, I guess that makes her the God of the 'Baby Tribe'. And being Jagadamba, Mother of The All (the Universe), her tribe is.... Ooooh, I worked myself into a corner there, didn't I? Never mind. Moving on.
Coming to yet another 'tribal' God of the Hindoos. Here he is, saying something so obviously tribal that I must and shall repeat it:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In the Bhagavad Gita, Lord Krishna assures the adherents of all religions that "those who pray with devotion to another god, it is to Me that they pray."<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> http://www.aumnamoshivaya.com/Hinduism.htm (Link name - Did someone confuse Om Namo Narayana(ya) with Om Namah Shivaya maybe; or is Om Namo Shivaya also a done thing?)
But how 'tribal' of Krishna in the Gita to declare such a thing! He says that if you were a truly peaceful Muslim praying to some mistaken idea of a benign allah (it's not in keeping with islamic scriptures I know, but it's true that there's such muslims around in India) that such offerings of love and sincerity were accepted by Krishna, Brahman. How petty of Krishna that he can't rise to biblical heights and declare himself to be a JEALOUS gawd and threaten you with Eternal DAMNATION if you were to ever think of having 'other Gods before you'. After all, that's the sign of a universal gawd apparently...
That annoying bluish butter-snatching Krishna needs a whole new definition of 'tribal' to do his statement justice. I suggest we call it 'universalist tribalism'. Because anything you do with affection and sincerity ends up with him.
That reminds me, this is very likely where C.S. Lewis got the idea from for the best line in his 7th book of the Chronicles of Narnia (The Last Battle). C.S. Lewis intended to write some christian books for kids, but he added lots of Greco-Roman Gods and motifs into his stories, to the extent that even Aslan, who was <i>meant</i> to be a jesus-for-Narnia, ended up becoming very pagan by the end.
In this final book of the series, the character Emeth - who had worshipped Tash (the evil demonic 'deity' from Narnia's neighbouring country) all his life - comes face to face with Aslan. See here the line in question:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->(Emeth
Alas, Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Lewis never got this from the bible, that much is certain.Oh, I will allow that Lewis could have used common sense. Any universal God would and should say such a thing on the topic, were he/she to mention it at all (else it can safely be assumed - for instance, about The Grand Spirit of the native North Americans who also created all the universe and like a mother gave it life).
But christoislamism never was universal and the idea expressed above is alien to christoislamism. In fact, one can read the preposterous invention of narrow-minded man (jehovallah) declaring the direct opposite: 'Me me me and no one else - Or HELL!'
So C.S. Lewis' readers are in for a nasty shock when they turn to the babble after Chronicles of Narnia to find out whether jesus is anything like the pleasant fiction Aslan...
As for whether Lewis could have been influenced in the writing of his statement by the Gita or other Hindu ideas, consider that he was not unaware of Hinduism. He made several comments about it, including:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"For my own part, I have sometimes told my audience that the only two things really worth considering are Christianity and Hinduism (Islam is only the greatest of the Christian heresies, Buddhism only the greatest of the Hindu heresies. Real Paganism is dead. All that was best in Judaism and Platonism survives in Christianity)."
- C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock, "Christian Apologetics"<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Of course, this is wrong. The "only things worth considering" are everything except christoislamicommunazism. Christoislamism tried to kill all of 'paganism'. But no matter, the natural religions survive in spite of everything. And no, christianism did not imbibe anything properly, so that whatever has been plagiarised has also been perverted.
And of course, it goes without saying, Buddhism is not a heresy. Only christians could see things that way.