11-18-2007, 10:56 AM
Again related to Raju's #213:
See also the above post (#214), where I took serious exception to totally unnecessary "guesses" from your end on the origin of Thamizh temple construction/architecture.
I ran a search on some combination like Agama Hindu Temple Construction Mayan, and the only page that I found which seemed to know what it was talking about when it came to Hindu temples - <i>and</i> which seemed to talk about some of the things you appear to have alluded to (but no mention of the "Thamizh Kovils are Maya Asura style") - was the following.
http://www.bnaiyer.com/studies/agamas-01.html
<b>Title:</b> Ancient Hindu Scriptures
A G A M A S - SCIENCE AND ART OF TEMPLE CONSTRUCTION
POORNA PRAGNA - Srinivasaprasad Kidambi
The entire excerpt is good to read for different reasons, but I've coloured the relevant portions blue.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Ancient cultures for centuries all across the continents built huge structures for places of worship, observatories, burial places. The size and layout was so complex and perfect to indicate that the basis of such constructions must be sound scientific principles of most advanced branches of engineering sciences. The need for such huge places also must have been dictated by more pressing and practical concerns in public policy, agriculture and public health rather than just to show the pomp of a king. Many of these structures all over the world are now available in ruins or completely destroyed excepting many of the structures in India and across the East Asian Buddhist countries like Burma, China and Japan. This successful destruction was perpetuated from 4th century onwards by various plethoras of groups of religious zealots, hate groups and several nomadic tribes as a tool to propagate their faiths and religious beliefs and intimidate the society following existing cultures and traditions. In the modern day when such atrocious acts cannot be perpetuated, the some societies are using multinational corporations, rebellious armies, Religious fundamentalists and some hate groups to destroy these structures in the name of land reforms, modernization of agriculture and industrialization.
Â
If nothing works, they achieve their goal by organizing and creating terrorist and separatist groups . Recently a spate of these structures are being discovered in Middle East, South America, North America, Europe, India and Australia on land and under sea. These newly discovered sites remarkably resemble in design, content and construction, with existing Oriental (Asian, Indian) structures. In the absence of any knowledge about these structures in India or in Asia or deliberately omitting them from even mentioning as existing, or by deliberately not encouraging the authoritative texts in this field of architecture dealing with such constructions from being translated in to western languages, the western academia is throwing lot of new theories of speculative nature. Their bias towards Judeo- Christian origin and development of civilization is so missionary that they even want to destroy these texts by encouraging third world governments to not to support the small press that helps to publish the texts that deal with the scientific principles of such constructions.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->The above does not appear to imply any appriopriation nor directionality. (Which would be unnecessary.) That is, it is conceivable that various ancient cultures across the world developed reasoning/sciences for constructing sacred temples independently, and that these sciences led to the some kind of similarities in structures because they were directed toward the same consistent understanding of God.
Raju, here's the only mention of Mayans on the above page - and it also mentions the name of divine architect Vishwakarma:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Mata</b> means opinion. It is the rendering or approach towards a particular Agama Principle, theory by practicing Shilpi, at a particular geographical location or after a particular astronomical event or after a particular lapse of time (usually more than 432,000 year cycles). These rendering are made only to make the agama theory workable after a major astronimical or geological event in the process of evolution. This is like a corollary to the main theory or an exception under certain given circumstances. Maya Mata (practiced in Americas, north and south, in native Indian cultures and by Mayans, Azetics, Tolemics erc), Viswakarma Mata (as practiced in Africa, Europe) are such two important texts.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->This last bit seems a bit far-out to me. Where's the evidence that it is indeed "Vishwakarma Mata" being practised in Africa and Europe and that Americas practise the equally Hindu-sounding "Maya Mata" (<- what is that - is that the Maya Asura you referred to above?) Where's the support that it is indeed Hindu Agama principles they are following? (For instance, have they got Hindu texts? Did they historically declare that they had Hindu texts?)
I've noticed that the local indigenous religion where I live constructs temples/shrines/sacred community spaces based on some principles and science of their own. But they're not based on Hindu Agamas, but their own. Just like the reasoning behind Greek temple construction/design was Greek.
It doesn't seem that any appropriation is intended on that page - rather it looks like it sees a greater interconnection between ancient religious cultures (that is, on the occasions where these other cultures are mentioned) - but I can't see that this world-wide temple construction is based on <i>Hindu</i> scriptures/is of Hindu origin the world over. There's certainly no evidence given for that.
Of course, none of this changes anything I said in the previous post: I still dispute your guess on the origin of TN's Kovils construction design.
On another matter, that link ( http://www.bnaiyer.com/studies/agamas-01.html )
mentions communist China's interest in occupying Tibet and their declaration to use translated Samskritam documents for their space programme. (I think I recall this matter being discussed somewhere on this thread?)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->All Darshanas belonging to Upa Vedas are either unavailable, burnt, lost, [or given away to many universities across USA, Germany, Canada by Indian immigrants whose ancestors preserved them from centuries of oppression] or still preserved either in Nepal or in Tibet in monastries where they were taken when Nalanda and Taxila Universities were burned by the aliens. The apex text Shilpa Sutras supposed to be written by Maharishi Viswakarma or Sthapathya Sutras is not available.
Though Agama philosophy is referred to within each of these Vedas, the general principles of all elements of Agamas are found primarily within the Atharva Veda and in its branches or declensions, and codified in Shilpa sutras. Expanding upon the general outline contained in Atharva Veda are the Shilpa Sutras by Rishi Viswakarma. In addition to the apex Sutra Literature, there are Vedic sources which can be divided in to six tiers: 1)Upanishads, 2)Samhithas, 3) Tantras 4) Agamas and 5) Pradipikaas, Karikas, Matas 6) Vyakhyanas (Special renderings or commentaries).
(Given as intra-text 'foot'note
Â
There is now evidence available to prove that the Chinese invasion of Tibet is partly motivated by the fact that they want to posses the ancient texts preserved. And infact there is evidence that they send some of these manuscripts to Chandigarh University to translate. Dr. Ruth Renya translated them and sent them back to both Chinese and to Indian scientists stating that the manuscripts contained detailed descriptions regarding building interstellar space ships. Few years latter Chinese announced that they are including parts of the process detailed in the texts in their space missions. Anti Gravity Hand Book, pp 130-135,Compiled by D. Hatcher Childress, Network/Adventures Unlimited Press., Stelle, Illinois 60919. (See the Appendix for photocopy of the page 130)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See also the above post (#214), where I took serious exception to totally unnecessary "guesses" from your end on the origin of Thamizh temple construction/architecture.
I ran a search on some combination like Agama Hindu Temple Construction Mayan, and the only page that I found which seemed to know what it was talking about when it came to Hindu temples - <i>and</i> which seemed to talk about some of the things you appear to have alluded to (but no mention of the "Thamizh Kovils are Maya Asura style") - was the following.
http://www.bnaiyer.com/studies/agamas-01.html
<b>Title:</b> Ancient Hindu Scriptures
A G A M A S - SCIENCE AND ART OF TEMPLE CONSTRUCTION
POORNA PRAGNA - Srinivasaprasad Kidambi
The entire excerpt is good to read for different reasons, but I've coloured the relevant portions blue.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Ancient cultures for centuries all across the continents built huge structures for places of worship, observatories, burial places. The size and layout was so complex and perfect to indicate that the basis of such constructions must be sound scientific principles of most advanced branches of engineering sciences. The need for such huge places also must have been dictated by more pressing and practical concerns in public policy, agriculture and public health rather than just to show the pomp of a king. Many of these structures all over the world are now available in ruins or completely destroyed excepting many of the structures in India and across the East Asian Buddhist countries like Burma, China and Japan. This successful destruction was perpetuated from 4th century onwards by various plethoras of groups of religious zealots, hate groups and several nomadic tribes as a tool to propagate their faiths and religious beliefs and intimidate the society following existing cultures and traditions. In the modern day when such atrocious acts cannot be perpetuated, the some societies are using multinational corporations, rebellious armies, Religious fundamentalists and some hate groups to destroy these structures in the name of land reforms, modernization of agriculture and industrialization.
Â
If nothing works, they achieve their goal by organizing and creating terrorist and separatist groups . Recently a spate of these structures are being discovered in Middle East, South America, North America, Europe, India and Australia on land and under sea. These newly discovered sites remarkably resemble in design, content and construction, with existing Oriental (Asian, Indian) structures. In the absence of any knowledge about these structures in India or in Asia or deliberately omitting them from even mentioning as existing, or by deliberately not encouraging the authoritative texts in this field of architecture dealing with such constructions from being translated in to western languages, the western academia is throwing lot of new theories of speculative nature. Their bias towards Judeo- Christian origin and development of civilization is so missionary that they even want to destroy these texts by encouraging third world governments to not to support the small press that helps to publish the texts that deal with the scientific principles of such constructions.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->The above does not appear to imply any appriopriation nor directionality. (Which would be unnecessary.) That is, it is conceivable that various ancient cultures across the world developed reasoning/sciences for constructing sacred temples independently, and that these sciences led to the some kind of similarities in structures because they were directed toward the same consistent understanding of God.
Raju, here's the only mention of Mayans on the above page - and it also mentions the name of divine architect Vishwakarma:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Mata</b> means opinion. It is the rendering or approach towards a particular Agama Principle, theory by practicing Shilpi, at a particular geographical location or after a particular astronomical event or after a particular lapse of time (usually more than 432,000 year cycles). These rendering are made only to make the agama theory workable after a major astronimical or geological event in the process of evolution. This is like a corollary to the main theory or an exception under certain given circumstances. Maya Mata (practiced in Americas, north and south, in native Indian cultures and by Mayans, Azetics, Tolemics erc), Viswakarma Mata (as practiced in Africa, Europe) are such two important texts.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->This last bit seems a bit far-out to me. Where's the evidence that it is indeed "Vishwakarma Mata" being practised in Africa and Europe and that Americas practise the equally Hindu-sounding "Maya Mata" (<- what is that - is that the Maya Asura you referred to above?) Where's the support that it is indeed Hindu Agama principles they are following? (For instance, have they got Hindu texts? Did they historically declare that they had Hindu texts?)
I've noticed that the local indigenous religion where I live constructs temples/shrines/sacred community spaces based on some principles and science of their own. But they're not based on Hindu Agamas, but their own. Just like the reasoning behind Greek temple construction/design was Greek.
It doesn't seem that any appropriation is intended on that page - rather it looks like it sees a greater interconnection between ancient religious cultures (that is, on the occasions where these other cultures are mentioned) - but I can't see that this world-wide temple construction is based on <i>Hindu</i> scriptures/is of Hindu origin the world over. There's certainly no evidence given for that.
Of course, none of this changes anything I said in the previous post: I still dispute your guess on the origin of TN's Kovils construction design.
On another matter, that link ( http://www.bnaiyer.com/studies/agamas-01.html )
mentions communist China's interest in occupying Tibet and their declaration to use translated Samskritam documents for their space programme. (I think I recall this matter being discussed somewhere on this thread?)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->All Darshanas belonging to Upa Vedas are either unavailable, burnt, lost, [or given away to many universities across USA, Germany, Canada by Indian immigrants whose ancestors preserved them from centuries of oppression] or still preserved either in Nepal or in Tibet in monastries where they were taken when Nalanda and Taxila Universities were burned by the aliens. The apex text Shilpa Sutras supposed to be written by Maharishi Viswakarma or Sthapathya Sutras is not available.
Though Agama philosophy is referred to within each of these Vedas, the general principles of all elements of Agamas are found primarily within the Atharva Veda and in its branches or declensions, and codified in Shilpa sutras. Expanding upon the general outline contained in Atharva Veda are the Shilpa Sutras by Rishi Viswakarma. In addition to the apex Sutra Literature, there are Vedic sources which can be divided in to six tiers: 1)Upanishads, 2)Samhithas, 3) Tantras 4) Agamas and 5) Pradipikaas, Karikas, Matas 6) Vyakhyanas (Special renderings or commentaries).
(Given as intra-text 'foot'note
 There is now evidence available to prove that the Chinese invasion of Tibet is partly motivated by the fact that they want to posses the ancient texts preserved. And infact there is evidence that they send some of these manuscripts to Chandigarh University to translate. Dr. Ruth Renya translated them and sent them back to both Chinese and to Indian scientists stating that the manuscripts contained detailed descriptions regarding building interstellar space ships. Few years latter Chinese announced that they are including parts of the process detailed in the texts in their space missions. Anti Gravity Hand Book, pp 130-135,Compiled by D. Hatcher Childress, Network/Adventures Unlimited Press., Stelle, Illinois 60919. (See the Appendix for photocopy of the page 130)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->