<!--QuoteBegin-Raju+Nov 18 2007, 04:22 PM-->QUOTE(Raju @ Nov 18 2007, 04:22 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->There is even a town in deep south called 'Nagar' Kovil. And 'Sarpa' Kaavu abound in deep south of India.[right][snapback]75345[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Nagarkoil is a place, I've been there. And so is Nagapatnam, for instance. But it refers to Nagadevas, Nagapambu.
I can tell you that "Naga" in the Sarpam/Pambu sense is a common word in Thamizh. Names like Nagarcoil and Nagapattinam do not prove anything more than that we do Snake worship as we've always done.
Many of our Kovils contain/have adjoining sacred Naga Deva areas (Naga in the meaning of Pambu/Sarpam - as I already said) where us visitors perform our rituals around the sacred carvings in our worship of Naga Divinities. In general, we also show respect to Pambu puttu (sp?) - 'snake hills'.
Worship of Nagapambu is not confined to us, I think. (Seeing Snakes as divinity is a practise in the rest of India too, IIRC.) This is part of Hindu tradition - definitely in Thamizh Nadu and bordering regions.
<b>See image:</b> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Naga_Cult_Kanchipuram.jpg
Wikipedia image of the kind of sacred Naga temple grounds that I mean.
Captioned "Naga-worship next to the Sri Vaigunda Perumal Temple in Kanchipuram"
They patronisingly refer to it as "Naga Cult Kanchipuram" and "Very interesting iconographic mixture with Vaishnavite symbolism" and all. But Naga Deva worship is mainstream Hinduism (leastways, where I come from). And Adishesha/Sheshanaga was always associated with Mahavishnu.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The 'Nairs' of Kerala are believed to belong to be Naga vamshajar. The entire Nair history is replete with references to Naga, even their ornaments are related to Naga symbols.
'Naga Sundari' mare // beautiful nair women<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->If they are called Naga, this does not prove anything about their relation to the Mayans, or even about Nairs and the Nagas of the NE. Are the Nairs genetically related to the Indian Nagas of the NE - over and above their genetic kinship with other Indians, that is? Or, if the genetics thereof is as yet unknown, is their (historic/native) language - which I so far thought was Malayalam in the case of Nairs - more closely related to that of the NE population who are called Nagas?
With "Vamshajar" do you mean "Vamsham" like Ramar is of Raghuvamsam (Solar dynasty) while the Pandavas and/or Yadavas (or someone from the MB, I think) are Lunar dynasty?
Then do the Nagas of the NE also declare they are Naga Vamsham like the Nairs? That would then be something that indicates kinship. Though even if that were so, I suppose it's still possible for any community to have the name of "Naga" without it automatically connecting them with other communities/dynasties called Naga in other parts of India. Just like many communities may take on variations of the name "Singham": Hindu Singh from C India (Rajput?), Sikh Singh, SL Sinha and yet not necessarily be connected.
But in any case, no connection has yet been shown between the Nagapambu/-deva places in our temples with the Mayans.
- I'm not even convinced of a connection between any of the Indian meanings of "Naga" with Mayans.
- I've read some modern theories straining to connect the Nagas of NE with the Nagapambu worship in the South. (We have some millennia of tradition concerning our Naga Devas - the Pambu. Complete evidence of them being some human community is required to overturn the long-standing understanding we have of our beliefs, customs and practises.)
This 'theory' of our Naga Pambu worship being related to Nagas of the NE (let alone Mayans) has only surfaced in more recent times. Theories based on similarities of words and names remain just that until people show hard evidence.
At least 4 things need to be proven:
(1) that Naga pambu and related traditions (sacredness of puttu, and the like) are connected to Nagas of NE
(2) that Nairs are connected to Nagas of NE
(3) that the beings called Nagas in Mahabharatam (Uloopi and her kind) are connected to Nagas of NE
(According to Thamizh tradition, Uloopi is said to have governed a place in TN, near what's a temple now http://www.hindubooks.org/temples/tamilnad...koil/page13.htm
- but that's related to (2) again: what does it have to do with the Nagas of the NE? Also, doesn't MB describe Uloopi's people as not human and not looking entirely human - weren't they snake or something from the waist down?) So how is it the MB Nagas would magically match up with a rather human community of the same name? And if so, is this the DIT: us "Dravidians" now "drove the Nagas up to the NE" - all while we still worship "them"? <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It feels more likely that the Nairs might recognise an affiliation with the Naga Devas or Uloopi's Nagas - in fact, I always thought these last two might be the same (at least in TN, since our state is at the coast of the ocean and Uloopi's kind of Nagas were described as great water-snake people who live in the water, isn't it?).
(4) that Nagas of NE are connected to Mayans. (Or that any of the other Nagas mentioned in (1) to (3) are connected to Mayans.)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Intrigued by the possible relationship between Maya, the Godly architect in Hindu tradition, and the Mayan people of South and Central America, he traveled throughout that region visiting ancient monuments and meeting with modern Mayan representatives. Repeatedly he was astounded by similarities between Hindu construction design and that of the Mayans, right down to the use of the same measurements and proportions. No explanation has been offered as to how this occurred, as the two peoples were never known to have been in Contact.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Hinduwisdom noted several deep similarities between our two cultures (as well as some strained bits in there). There could well be some connection or ancient relations. But not knowing what that is, no point theorising about the different references to "Nagas" as pointing to one-and-the-same-thing, just yet. (It doesn't take much for guessing games to grow out of hand. Lots of old-generation Hindus also started accepting the AIT after continuous exposure to it, and then wrote on about it. Was it G. Tilak who wrote about some oryans "from the Arctic"? Besides, Dr Sthapati in the above text has not declared anything more than being astounded by similarities - he certainly doesn't appear to be theorising on their cause; although he's obviously aware of/"intrigued" by a possible relationship with Mayans, as it says.)
But there needs to be hard evidence (like genetics) to support this ever-expanding theory of "Mayans are NE-Nagas are the Nairs"; and that they are somehow related to the Naga Pambu we worship and are connected to Thamizh temple construction via the Hindu character of architect Maya.
Maya is a very common name in Hinduism without needing to refer to Mayans at all (and, separately, without his architecture being connected to Nagas from the NE).
I never liked word-based guessing games. Less so those centred around two-syllable words.
I have more questions. Which Kovils are the "Naga <i>origin</i> Kovils" you referred to in your post 213:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I am guessing that most Naga <i>origin</i> temples/KOVILS in deep south India etc have Maya Asura's influence.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->How do you know they are "Naga origin": do you mean they were built by Nairs or others who were of Nagavamsham?
Or do you merely mean they are dedicated to Nagadevas and 'therefore' they are connected to Nagas from NE and 'therefore' connected to Mayans?
I can tell you that "Naga" in the Sarpam/Pambu sense is a common word in Thamizh. Names like Nagarcoil and Nagapattinam do not prove anything more than that we do Snake worship as we've always done.
Many of our Kovils contain/have adjoining sacred Naga Deva areas (Naga in the meaning of Pambu/Sarpam - as I already said) where us visitors perform our rituals around the sacred carvings in our worship of Naga Divinities. In general, we also show respect to Pambu puttu (sp?) - 'snake hills'.
Worship of Nagapambu is not confined to us, I think. (Seeing Snakes as divinity is a practise in the rest of India too, IIRC.) This is part of Hindu tradition - definitely in Thamizh Nadu and bordering regions.
<b>See image:</b> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Naga_Cult_Kanchipuram.jpg
Wikipedia image of the kind of sacred Naga temple grounds that I mean.
Captioned "Naga-worship next to the Sri Vaigunda Perumal Temple in Kanchipuram"
They patronisingly refer to it as "Naga Cult Kanchipuram" and "Very interesting iconographic mixture with Vaishnavite symbolism" and all. But Naga Deva worship is mainstream Hinduism (leastways, where I come from). And Adishesha/Sheshanaga was always associated with Mahavishnu.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The 'Nairs' of Kerala are believed to belong to be Naga vamshajar. The entire Nair history is replete with references to Naga, even their ornaments are related to Naga symbols.
'Naga Sundari' mare // beautiful nair women<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->If they are called Naga, this does not prove anything about their relation to the Mayans, or even about Nairs and the Nagas of the NE. Are the Nairs genetically related to the Indian Nagas of the NE - over and above their genetic kinship with other Indians, that is? Or, if the genetics thereof is as yet unknown, is their (historic/native) language - which I so far thought was Malayalam in the case of Nairs - more closely related to that of the NE population who are called Nagas?
With "Vamshajar" do you mean "Vamsham" like Ramar is of Raghuvamsam (Solar dynasty) while the Pandavas and/or Yadavas (or someone from the MB, I think) are Lunar dynasty?
Then do the Nagas of the NE also declare they are Naga Vamsham like the Nairs? That would then be something that indicates kinship. Though even if that were so, I suppose it's still possible for any community to have the name of "Naga" without it automatically connecting them with other communities/dynasties called Naga in other parts of India. Just like many communities may take on variations of the name "Singham": Hindu Singh from C India (Rajput?), Sikh Singh, SL Sinha and yet not necessarily be connected.
But in any case, no connection has yet been shown between the Nagapambu/-deva places in our temples with the Mayans.
- I'm not even convinced of a connection between any of the Indian meanings of "Naga" with Mayans.
- I've read some modern theories straining to connect the Nagas of NE with the Nagapambu worship in the South. (We have some millennia of tradition concerning our Naga Devas - the Pambu. Complete evidence of them being some human community is required to overturn the long-standing understanding we have of our beliefs, customs and practises.)
This 'theory' of our Naga Pambu worship being related to Nagas of the NE (let alone Mayans) has only surfaced in more recent times. Theories based on similarities of words and names remain just that until people show hard evidence.
At least 4 things need to be proven:
(1) that Naga pambu and related traditions (sacredness of puttu, and the like) are connected to Nagas of NE
(2) that Nairs are connected to Nagas of NE
(3) that the beings called Nagas in Mahabharatam (Uloopi and her kind) are connected to Nagas of NE
(According to Thamizh tradition, Uloopi is said to have governed a place in TN, near what's a temple now http://www.hindubooks.org/temples/tamilnad...koil/page13.htm
- but that's related to (2) again: what does it have to do with the Nagas of the NE? Also, doesn't MB describe Uloopi's people as not human and not looking entirely human - weren't they snake or something from the waist down?) So how is it the MB Nagas would magically match up with a rather human community of the same name? And if so, is this the DIT: us "Dravidians" now "drove the Nagas up to the NE" - all while we still worship "them"? <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It feels more likely that the Nairs might recognise an affiliation with the Naga Devas or Uloopi's Nagas - in fact, I always thought these last two might be the same (at least in TN, since our state is at the coast of the ocean and Uloopi's kind of Nagas were described as great water-snake people who live in the water, isn't it?).
(4) that Nagas of NE are connected to Mayans. (Or that any of the other Nagas mentioned in (1) to (3) are connected to Mayans.)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Intrigued by the possible relationship between Maya, the Godly architect in Hindu tradition, and the Mayan people of South and Central America, he traveled throughout that region visiting ancient monuments and meeting with modern Mayan representatives. Repeatedly he was astounded by similarities between Hindu construction design and that of the Mayans, right down to the use of the same measurements and proportions. No explanation has been offered as to how this occurred, as the two peoples were never known to have been in Contact.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Hinduwisdom noted several deep similarities between our two cultures (as well as some strained bits in there). There could well be some connection or ancient relations. But not knowing what that is, no point theorising about the different references to "Nagas" as pointing to one-and-the-same-thing, just yet. (It doesn't take much for guessing games to grow out of hand. Lots of old-generation Hindus also started accepting the AIT after continuous exposure to it, and then wrote on about it. Was it G. Tilak who wrote about some oryans "from the Arctic"? Besides, Dr Sthapati in the above text has not declared anything more than being astounded by similarities - he certainly doesn't appear to be theorising on their cause; although he's obviously aware of/"intrigued" by a possible relationship with Mayans, as it says.)
But there needs to be hard evidence (like genetics) to support this ever-expanding theory of "Mayans are NE-Nagas are the Nairs"; and that they are somehow related to the Naga Pambu we worship and are connected to Thamizh temple construction via the Hindu character of architect Maya.
Maya is a very common name in Hinduism without needing to refer to Mayans at all (and, separately, without his architecture being connected to Nagas from the NE).
I never liked word-based guessing games. Less so those centred around two-syllable words.
I have more questions. Which Kovils are the "Naga <i>origin</i> Kovils" you referred to in your post 213:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I am guessing that most Naga <i>origin</i> temples/KOVILS in deep south India etc have Maya Asura's influence.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->How do you know they are "Naga origin": do you mean they were built by Nairs or others who were of Nagavamsham?
Or do you merely mean they are dedicated to Nagadevas and 'therefore' they are connected to Nagas from NE and 'therefore' connected to Mayans?