07-07-2004, 11:08 PM
Absolutely not rambling... Thanks a million Ashok. <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Your flow of thoughts, and also the points raised has set me thinking. I still have a long way to go before I can sit back and smile like Gaudapada when such a question is raised. The mystery of life, though it's so simple, is also the most elusive. I have to reflect on what you said, and I shall meditate upon it tonite. But before that, I would like to clarify a few things (and get things clarified)..
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->But at some point of bodily damage our identification with the body becomes implausible. That is the moment of physical death. That is when our identification with the body doesn't remain valid anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are three other states where our identification with the physical body does not remain valid. They are, Swapna (Dream), Sushupthi (Deep Sleep), and Thuriyam or Chathurtham (The fourth state.) The Brahma Sutra also talks about "swooning" as half-dead state, where a person is not in sushupti, nor is he in the states of Vishva (Jagrut) or Taijasa (Swapna'avasta.) Thus, lack of identity with the body alone does not distinguish beteween life and death.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->At the time of the death of a human, the physical body is the first to die. The vital (prana) and manomaya bodies may still linger for some time. Vital (pranamaya) body dies next as it cannot sustain itself due to lack of nourishment coming through physical body. Manaomaya (mental) body disintegrates next. This is the reason why people do not retain physical/vital traits or mental memories of past lives.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Prana cannot "die", it will only stop functioning with respect to a particular body. IIRC, according to Brahma Sutra, Sri Shankara mentiones that on "death", the functions of the sense organs (indriyas) merge into the prana. The Prana merges into the manas(?) (mind), and the mind into the Jeeva. The jeeva snaps it's bonds with the body and leaves for it's next destination. (Usually Chandraloka for yogis and Brahmaloka for Gnanis.)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In the upanishads it is called the 'hiranmaya purusha' or tha 'angushtha-matra' purusha.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The flame in the heart is more like a <b>neevara-suka</b> fiber from a rice-paddy. The Narayana-sukta has an excellent-excellent description of the jeeva.
<i>
Brilliant like a streak of lightning set in the midst of the blue rain-bearing clouds, slender like the awn of a paddy grain, yellow (like gold) in colour, in subtlety comparable to the minute atom, (this Tongue of Fire) glows splendid.
In the Middle of That Flame, the Supreme Self dwells. This (Self) is Brahma (the Creator), Siva (the Destroyer), Hari (the Protector), Indra (the Ruler, the Imperishable, the absolute, the Autonomous Being.
http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/invoc/in_nar.html
</i>
This jeeva, as it is limited, identifies itself with the mind/body/intellect owing to the upadhis (limtations.)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Heart region consists of two major chakras. It is a dual chakra. The superficial chakra is the seat of 'emotion'.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did not know the heart had TWO chakras. I am aware of the Anahatha chakra. What is the other one? Is it a minor chakra? Or is it the one Sri Ramana Maharshi mentions, the one on the right side of the physical heart?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->For a human to be reborn as a worm, means a frightful descendence into the hell of ignorance.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now-a-days, even being born as a CPI-M or RJD mantri also means the same, or worse.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In that sense, soul/karana-sharira is not the ultimate self. The only real self is the Atman of upanishda/vedanta. And that Atman is same as Brhaman or the universal self/reality.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, the Karana sharira (Ananda maya kosha) is not permanent. It is still a sheath. Avaduthas and Durvasa (literally, one who cannot be clothed), are called so because he cannot be clothed even by the five sheaths.
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->Your flow of thoughts, and also the points raised has set me thinking. I still have a long way to go before I can sit back and smile like Gaudapada when such a question is raised. The mystery of life, though it's so simple, is also the most elusive. I have to reflect on what you said, and I shall meditate upon it tonite. But before that, I would like to clarify a few things (and get things clarified)..
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->But at some point of bodily damage our identification with the body becomes implausible. That is the moment of physical death. That is when our identification with the body doesn't remain valid anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are three other states where our identification with the physical body does not remain valid. They are, Swapna (Dream), Sushupthi (Deep Sleep), and Thuriyam or Chathurtham (The fourth state.) The Brahma Sutra also talks about "swooning" as half-dead state, where a person is not in sushupti, nor is he in the states of Vishva (Jagrut) or Taijasa (Swapna'avasta.) Thus, lack of identity with the body alone does not distinguish beteween life and death.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->At the time of the death of a human, the physical body is the first to die. The vital (prana) and manomaya bodies may still linger for some time. Vital (pranamaya) body dies next as it cannot sustain itself due to lack of nourishment coming through physical body. Manaomaya (mental) body disintegrates next. This is the reason why people do not retain physical/vital traits or mental memories of past lives.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Prana cannot "die", it will only stop functioning with respect to a particular body. IIRC, according to Brahma Sutra, Sri Shankara mentiones that on "death", the functions of the sense organs (indriyas) merge into the prana. The Prana merges into the manas(?) (mind), and the mind into the Jeeva. The jeeva snaps it's bonds with the body and leaves for it's next destination. (Usually Chandraloka for yogis and Brahmaloka for Gnanis.)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In the upanishads it is called the 'hiranmaya purusha' or tha 'angushtha-matra' purusha.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The flame in the heart is more like a <b>neevara-suka</b> fiber from a rice-paddy. The Narayana-sukta has an excellent-excellent description of the jeeva.
<i>
Brilliant like a streak of lightning set in the midst of the blue rain-bearing clouds, slender like the awn of a paddy grain, yellow (like gold) in colour, in subtlety comparable to the minute atom, (this Tongue of Fire) glows splendid.
In the Middle of That Flame, the Supreme Self dwells. This (Self) is Brahma (the Creator), Siva (the Destroyer), Hari (the Protector), Indra (the Ruler, the Imperishable, the absolute, the Autonomous Being.
http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/invoc/in_nar.html
</i>
This jeeva, as it is limited, identifies itself with the mind/body/intellect owing to the upadhis (limtations.)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Heart region consists of two major chakras. It is a dual chakra. The superficial chakra is the seat of 'emotion'.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did not know the heart had TWO chakras. I am aware of the Anahatha chakra. What is the other one? Is it a minor chakra? Or is it the one Sri Ramana Maharshi mentions, the one on the right side of the physical heart?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->For a human to be reborn as a worm, means a frightful descendence into the hell of ignorance.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now-a-days, even being born as a CPI-M or RJD mantri also means the same, or worse.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In that sense, soul/karana-sharira is not the ultimate self. The only real self is the Atman of upanishda/vedanta. And that Atman is same as Brhaman or the universal self/reality.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, the Karana sharira (Ananda maya kosha) is not permanent. It is still a sheath. Avaduthas and Durvasa (literally, one who cannot be clothed), are called so because he cannot be clothed even by the five sheaths.