There are many cryptos in India that pretend that Buddhism and Hinduism have nothing in common. There was a christian who wrote in economic and political weekly or whatever trying to differentiate between Dhamma and Dharma (arguments no more logical than "look, even the spelling is different!").
I don't know about Theravada Buddhism, but I do know that in Mahayana Buddhism Gods are very much a part of spiritual life. And not only do they have their own E Asian Gods, but also Hindu Gods.
Also Hindu Gods have a life in Japan that is separate from Buddhism (as in, not Buddhist forms of Hindu Gods, but Hindu forms of Hindu Gods). Including in Shinto.
<img src='http://homepage3.nifty.com/mistaker3/images/P8210053.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
"Kankiten Statue near entrance to Fukuoka Tower 20 minutes from Nishi-Arashi Station" (as stated on this page).
That looks distinctly like the form of Ganapathi we all know - complete with Snake girdle, Ekadantam, Moonjoor.
Many more familiar Hindu forms of Gods (not only Vinayakar) part of the same at http://homepage3.nifty.com/mistaker3/monument2.htm Definitely worth a look!
And:
http://www.uniyatra.com/uniyatra_blog/2005...n-miyajima.html
<img src='http://www.uniyatra.com/images/uniyatra-blog/hindusymbolism-miyajima.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
"Ameeta and I found these unusual statues in Miyajima, Japan. They are unusual because the statues <b>represent Hindu gods</b>, something generally not seen in Japan."
Back to Mahayana (E-Asian) Buddhism.
Something that will send cryptos in India who insist on how Buddhism is so "totally different and not at all related to Hinduism" into an infinite desperation loop - they'll get a shriek attack on the spot:
From a Mahayana Buddhist thread - with mainly Japanese people but also others - people talk about Worshipping Kankiten/Kangiten
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->For example I posted a bit on Ganesha in the Tibetan forum because there was already a thread there but it (the thread), wasn't soley about Ganesha (Kangiten)as practiced, understood and incorporated by Japanese Shingon/Tendai practioners and laity (not neccesarily buddhist)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Do Tibetans worship Ganesha too, great. See I didn't know one bit. ... <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>om gam glaum ganapataye namah</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I jumped to p. 5 and read the great post of DNagpa on Kangiten, hmm I think I've got to worship him too I'll go to the library and see what his mantra is and which mandala he's on, probably both!
gassho, Rory<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->i live about 10 mins (by train) away from the Ikoma Hozanji å®å±±å¯º temple, from what i know the main deity (Honzon) worshipped there is Fudo-myoou. However, Kangiten is also worshipped there. It is a Daihonzan of the Shingon Ritsu tradition.
Gassho<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->(Rory @ Dec 3 2005, 10:52 AM)
Eijo Sensei
is Kangiten ritual only for priests or is it even more secret than that? I am not asking for you to reveal secrets just wondering if it is like learning Taizokai, Goma rituals, you must be ordained.
gassho, and thanks for all this sharing Rory<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yes Rory, it is only for fully trained and initiated priests, and is a major commitment to take on. It is not something to discuss idly, actually ...
For the person who asked. Shoten is written è天 (Shouten), not 諸天 (Shoten).
Eijo <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->(Shouten=Japanese Ganapathi)
In Hinduism, temple rites are unique for all ancient temples in India and each manifestation of God and Goddess in each temple has their own very specific rites. It's no different.
And such things as the Hindu version of the Mahamantram for Ganapathi (similar to what's bold above) are things that have to first be learned from your grandparent or Guru.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I read that book by Jiko Kohno, she really inspired me. The book is happy-sad. But this woman really is a healer & <b>sees the gods</b>. Of course married people can be effective priests.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->More proof on how the cryptos in India - the same gang who are yearly hired to 'convert' into Buddhism for show - have no clue.
Sometime earlier I had read Elst ("Who is a Hindu") on Ambedkar's new and totally different version of 'Buddhism' and making people swear off the Gods. He also changed a lot of Buddhist principles and basically created a totally different religion.
In any case, Mahayana Buddhism is similar to Hinduism (personal observation).
I would just point to their belief in Gods and similar rites and very similar ideas on Dharma (Buddhism in E is rather different from the Buddhism I have read on, which I guess is the difference between Mahayana and Theravada or merely the difference is between western interpretation and actual practise by living followers). Elst sees more similarities between E Buddhism and Hindu Dharma (no, I am not arguing it's the same religion):
http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/books/wiah/ch10.htm
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->after its establishment as a separate sect, Buddhism has continually moved closer to its Puranic or Tantric surroundings. Tibetan Buddhism, a fairly late offshoot of Indian Mahayana Buddhism, is very close to Hinduism in most respects, starting with its elaborate ritualism. But in Japanese Buddhism too, we find many practices that are not traditionally Japanese nor Buddhist in the strictest sense, but that have been carried along by Buddhism as a part of its Hindu heritage, e.g. the fire ceremony of the Shingon sect which, like the Vedic sacrifice, is called ?feeding the Gods?.40
(Kankiten is central to Shingon sect)
Indeed, Mahayana itself marks a major step back towards Hinduism, not just because of its adoption of externals like the Sanskrit language and devotional rituals to a legion of divine beings, but in its basic spirit: it aims beyond the monk?s individual salvation (the concern of Theravada Buddhism as of Jainism) to universal salvation for all monks, laymen and other beings, thereby restoring the central Hindu value of responsibility for the world.41 <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->I don't know about all that monk stuff.
But that Buddhist forum did mention some other similarity with Hinduism. A "Dragon King Puja" (there was use of the word Homam I think), which apparently is part of Japanese, Indonesian and Chinese Buddhist tradition. I think Raju (was it) will be happy to know that in this instance they were definitely referring to "Nagaraja".
From here:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I think the puja you are talking about is an ofering to the nagas. <b>Dragons and nagas are not exactly the same thing, but they are both called "ru" or "lu" in Chinese.</b>
Yes, the offering puja to the Nagaraja (king of nagas [or dragon]) is a real practice in Vajrayana.
Often it is made with the vase going into the sea like you said.
Although I don't have any information about the particular monk you mention, so I couldn't say if he holds an authentic lineage or not. Maybe someone else can confirm whether or not this monk holds a lineage of true teachings.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anyways, next time a psecular tells you how Buddhism is so "fundamentally different", there's all this proof that it's actually not (well, when it comes to Mahayana Buddhism, anyways - going by classmates' home traditions). Not that we didn't already know that Dharmic religions are similar, but Indian christos and their hirelings like to go on about how Buddhism is more like christianism <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I don't know about Theravada Buddhism, but I do know that in Mahayana Buddhism Gods are very much a part of spiritual life. And not only do they have their own E Asian Gods, but also Hindu Gods.
Also Hindu Gods have a life in Japan that is separate from Buddhism (as in, not Buddhist forms of Hindu Gods, but Hindu forms of Hindu Gods). Including in Shinto.
<img src='http://homepage3.nifty.com/mistaker3/images/P8210053.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
"Kankiten Statue near entrance to Fukuoka Tower 20 minutes from Nishi-Arashi Station" (as stated on this page).
That looks distinctly like the form of Ganapathi we all know - complete with Snake girdle, Ekadantam, Moonjoor.
Many more familiar Hindu forms of Gods (not only Vinayakar) part of the same at http://homepage3.nifty.com/mistaker3/monument2.htm Definitely worth a look!
And:
http://www.uniyatra.com/uniyatra_blog/2005...n-miyajima.html
<img src='http://www.uniyatra.com/images/uniyatra-blog/hindusymbolism-miyajima.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
"Ameeta and I found these unusual statues in Miyajima, Japan. They are unusual because the statues <b>represent Hindu gods</b>, something generally not seen in Japan."
Back to Mahayana (E-Asian) Buddhism.
Something that will send cryptos in India who insist on how Buddhism is so "totally different and not at all related to Hinduism" into an infinite desperation loop - they'll get a shriek attack on the spot:
From a Mahayana Buddhist thread - with mainly Japanese people but also others - people talk about Worshipping Kankiten/Kangiten
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->For example I posted a bit on Ganesha in the Tibetan forum because there was already a thread there but it (the thread), wasn't soley about Ganesha (Kangiten)as practiced, understood and incorporated by Japanese Shingon/Tendai practioners and laity (not neccesarily buddhist)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Do Tibetans worship Ganesha too, great. See I didn't know one bit. ... <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>om gam glaum ganapataye namah</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I jumped to p. 5 and read the great post of DNagpa on Kangiten, hmm I think I've got to worship him too I'll go to the library and see what his mantra is and which mandala he's on, probably both!
gassho, Rory<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->i live about 10 mins (by train) away from the Ikoma Hozanji å®å±±å¯º temple, from what i know the main deity (Honzon) worshipped there is Fudo-myoou. However, Kangiten is also worshipped there. It is a Daihonzan of the Shingon Ritsu tradition.
Gassho<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->(Rory @ Dec 3 2005, 10:52 AM)
Eijo Sensei
is Kangiten ritual only for priests or is it even more secret than that? I am not asking for you to reveal secrets just wondering if it is like learning Taizokai, Goma rituals, you must be ordained.
gassho, and thanks for all this sharing Rory<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yes Rory, it is only for fully trained and initiated priests, and is a major commitment to take on. It is not something to discuss idly, actually ...
For the person who asked. Shoten is written è天 (Shouten), not 諸天 (Shoten).
Eijo <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->(Shouten=Japanese Ganapathi)
In Hinduism, temple rites are unique for all ancient temples in India and each manifestation of God and Goddess in each temple has their own very specific rites. It's no different.
And such things as the Hindu version of the Mahamantram for Ganapathi (similar to what's bold above) are things that have to first be learned from your grandparent or Guru.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I read that book by Jiko Kohno, she really inspired me. The book is happy-sad. But this woman really is a healer & <b>sees the gods</b>. Of course married people can be effective priests.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->More proof on how the cryptos in India - the same gang who are yearly hired to 'convert' into Buddhism for show - have no clue.
Sometime earlier I had read Elst ("Who is a Hindu") on Ambedkar's new and totally different version of 'Buddhism' and making people swear off the Gods. He also changed a lot of Buddhist principles and basically created a totally different religion.
In any case, Mahayana Buddhism is similar to Hinduism (personal observation).
I would just point to their belief in Gods and similar rites and very similar ideas on Dharma (Buddhism in E is rather different from the Buddhism I have read on, which I guess is the difference between Mahayana and Theravada or merely the difference is between western interpretation and actual practise by living followers). Elst sees more similarities between E Buddhism and Hindu Dharma (no, I am not arguing it's the same religion):
http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/books/wiah/ch10.htm
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->after its establishment as a separate sect, Buddhism has continually moved closer to its Puranic or Tantric surroundings. Tibetan Buddhism, a fairly late offshoot of Indian Mahayana Buddhism, is very close to Hinduism in most respects, starting with its elaborate ritualism. But in Japanese Buddhism too, we find many practices that are not traditionally Japanese nor Buddhist in the strictest sense, but that have been carried along by Buddhism as a part of its Hindu heritage, e.g. the fire ceremony of the Shingon sect which, like the Vedic sacrifice, is called ?feeding the Gods?.40
(Kankiten is central to Shingon sect)
Indeed, Mahayana itself marks a major step back towards Hinduism, not just because of its adoption of externals like the Sanskrit language and devotional rituals to a legion of divine beings, but in its basic spirit: it aims beyond the monk?s individual salvation (the concern of Theravada Buddhism as of Jainism) to universal salvation for all monks, laymen and other beings, thereby restoring the central Hindu value of responsibility for the world.41 <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->I don't know about all that monk stuff.
But that Buddhist forum did mention some other similarity with Hinduism. A "Dragon King Puja" (there was use of the word Homam I think), which apparently is part of Japanese, Indonesian and Chinese Buddhist tradition. I think Raju (was it) will be happy to know that in this instance they were definitely referring to "Nagaraja".
From here:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I think the puja you are talking about is an ofering to the nagas. <b>Dragons and nagas are not exactly the same thing, but they are both called "ru" or "lu" in Chinese.</b>
Yes, the offering puja to the Nagaraja (king of nagas [or dragon]) is a real practice in Vajrayana.
Often it is made with the vase going into the sea like you said.
Although I don't have any information about the particular monk you mention, so I couldn't say if he holds an authentic lineage or not. Maybe someone else can confirm whether or not this monk holds a lineage of true teachings.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anyways, next time a psecular tells you how Buddhism is so "fundamentally different", there's all this proof that it's actually not (well, when it comes to Mahayana Buddhism, anyways - going by classmates' home traditions). Not that we didn't already know that Dharmic religions are similar, but Indian christos and their hirelings like to go on about how Buddhism is more like christianism <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo-->