08-17-2004, 01:04 AM
Sridhar Aiyyavaal, I absolutely have no reason to hide anything, nor is there anything that should NOT be posted when it comes to Vedanta. The only caution is one of interpretation. I may use a different terminology (or at times an inability to express the exact nature of experiences.) but not an unwillingness to express.. <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> With this, I shall try to answer - from memory - the following questions. (The terminology I use will be in relative terms only, for in ABSOLUTE terms, there are no questions or answers.)
<b>1) Do you come across these stages daily in your meditation. During the initial stages did you have more of 1 than 2 than 3 and so on and when you progressed, you have more 5 than 4 than 3..? </b>
In the initial stages, I had more of (1), I did not know what a 'quiescent mind' was, and I had thought it was impossible - something of a myth.. When I sat to 'meditate', I would almost be pretending, or even self-deceiving in order to impress those around me. The intent was sincere, but the terrain was unfamiliar. Thus I practiced 'meditation' (aka sitting around in one spot) for 45 days or more consistently come rain or shine. Slowly, without any demarcation, the mind begins to get less and less restless. Then came the sleepy stage and so forth.
To answer your question, it was only in the initial stages (first 1-2 years) that I had stage 1, 2, and 3. Later on 1 and 2 disappears, and you can go from (3) to (5) back and forth depending on the day. There is no guarantee that once you achieve 5, you can maintain it or attain it at will. (It takes constant practice.) Paathanjala Yoga Sutra (1:30) mentions the following:
<i>vyadhi styana samshaya pramada alasya avirati bhranti-darshana alabdha-bhumikatva anavasthitatva chitta vikshepa te antarayah
Nine kinds of distractions come that are obstacles naturally encountered on the path, and are physical illness, tendency of the mind to not work efficiently, doubt or indecision, lack of attention to pursuing the means of Samadhi, laziness in mind and body, failure to regulate the desire for worldly objects, incorrect assumptions or thinking, <b>failing to attain stages of the practice, and instability in maintaining a level of practice once attained.</b>
vyadhi = disease
styana = mental laziness, dullness
samshaya = doubt
pramada = carelessness, messed up
alasya = laziness
avirati = sensuality, want of non-attachment, craving
bhranti-darshana = false views or perception, confusion of philosophies, delusion
alabdha-bhumikatva = failing to attain stages of practice
anavasthitatva = instability, slipping down, inability to maintain something previously attained
chitta-vikshepa = distractions of the mind
te = they are, these are
antarayah = obstacles, impediments
</i>
<b>2) Is this pattern the same everyday? </b>
Absolutely not <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> One can only wish it were the same pattern. If I were in a secluded place then the attainment and progress to stage 5 is faster. (I had tested it out by meditating in long bus journey, or in a marketplace, on mountain tops, and in temples during bhajans and of course in places with loud music.) The ears automatically filters out the distractions. It's now easy, but it comes with practice. Thus, you will learn that the mind alone is the key distracting factor.
On some days, try as I might, I will not get past the third stage. Sometimes I am too tired physically to meditate, then I just lie down with thoughts of Sri Vidya. Try not to force meditation when the body (and the mind) is demanding rest.
On some days, it takes about 2-3 breaths before I get the warm trickle inside the head and there ends things. (This mostly happened in temples or at home.) Thus, the pattern varies according to HER Divine Will.
<b>3) Is there a name for your form of meditation and does it have a mantra, mudra and asana component for it? (In case it is very personal, please do not post it). </b>
I do not use Mudra, I do however use mantra-japam sometimes. The main requisite is to have a straight alignment of spine-neck-head ( I follow recommendations from Geetha chapter VI.) However, when it comes to chaila-ajeena-kusha (Cloth, Skin, Grass seat) I now do not use these. I Used to use a Kusha (Grass) mat with cloth on it. Did not sit on any skin except "mine".
Now-a-days, there are lots of brand names. But I do not know of any name for what I do. Thus no names in particular. It's Raja Yoga, but also heavily mixed with Bhakthi in the initial stages and towards just awareness in the present stage. Unfortunately I follow no brand names (as that itself is a limitation.) I definitely follow advice of GURU's like Sri Durvasa, Sri Agastya, Sri Shankaracharya, Patanjali, Ramakrishna/Vivekananda, Ramana Maharshi etc.
<b>4) Though unrelated to your previous post, Is the Vishtaadvaitins theory the Bhagavatas theory that you and Swamy Sivananda talks about with reference to Brahma Sutras? </b>
As I do not have in-depth knowledge of Visishtaadvaitha, I cannot say if Bhagavatha school is synonymous with Visishtaadvaitha. But according to Shankara Bhashyam of the Bhadarayana Sutras, The explanation is as follows:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->From the Brahma Sutra bhashya: http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/bs_2/bs_2-2-08.html
The Pancharatra doctrine or the doctrine of the Bhagavatas is now refuted.
According to this school, the Lord is the efficient cause as well as the material cause of the universe. This is in quite agreement with the scripture or the Sruti and so it is authoritative. A part of their system agrees with the Vedanta system. We accept this. Another part of the system, however, is open to objection.
The Bhagavatas say that Vaasudeva whose nature is pure knowledge is what really exists. He divides Himself fourfold and appears in four forms (Vyuhas) as Vaasudeva (Thuriyam), Sankarshana (Praagnah), Pradyumna (Thaijasa) and Aniruddha (Vishva). Vaasudeva denotes the Supreme Self, Sankarshana the individual soul, Pradyumna the mind, and Aniruddha the principle of egoism, or Ahamkara. Of these four Vaasudeva constitutes the Ultimate Cause, of which the three others are the effects.
They say that by devotion for a long period to Vaasudeva through Abhigamana (going to the temple with devotion), Upadana (securing the accessories of worship). Ijya (oblation, worship), Svadhyaya (study of holy scripture and recitation of Mantras) and Yoga (devout meditation) we can pass beyond all afflictions, pains and sorrows, attain Liberation and reach the Supreme Being. <b>We accept this doctrine.</b>
But we controvert the doctrine that Sankarshana (the Jiva) is born from Vaasudeva and so on. <b>Such creation is not possible. If there is such birth, if the soul be created it would be subject to destruction and hence there could be no Liberation. That the soul is not created will be shown in Sutra II.3. 17.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is the second point above (i.e. birth of Sankarshana from Vasudeva etc is Visishtadvaitha? And secondly, where can I get a good Bhashya of BrahmaSutra by Sri Ramanujacharya?
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> With this, I shall try to answer - from memory - the following questions. (The terminology I use will be in relative terms only, for in ABSOLUTE terms, there are no questions or answers.)<b>1) Do you come across these stages daily in your meditation. During the initial stages did you have more of 1 than 2 than 3 and so on and when you progressed, you have more 5 than 4 than 3..? </b>
In the initial stages, I had more of (1), I did not know what a 'quiescent mind' was, and I had thought it was impossible - something of a myth.. When I sat to 'meditate', I would almost be pretending, or even self-deceiving in order to impress those around me. The intent was sincere, but the terrain was unfamiliar. Thus I practiced 'meditation' (aka sitting around in one spot) for 45 days or more consistently come rain or shine. Slowly, without any demarcation, the mind begins to get less and less restless. Then came the sleepy stage and so forth.
To answer your question, it was only in the initial stages (first 1-2 years) that I had stage 1, 2, and 3. Later on 1 and 2 disappears, and you can go from (3) to (5) back and forth depending on the day. There is no guarantee that once you achieve 5, you can maintain it or attain it at will. (It takes constant practice.) Paathanjala Yoga Sutra (1:30) mentions the following:
<i>vyadhi styana samshaya pramada alasya avirati bhranti-darshana alabdha-bhumikatva anavasthitatva chitta vikshepa te antarayah
Nine kinds of distractions come that are obstacles naturally encountered on the path, and are physical illness, tendency of the mind to not work efficiently, doubt or indecision, lack of attention to pursuing the means of Samadhi, laziness in mind and body, failure to regulate the desire for worldly objects, incorrect assumptions or thinking, <b>failing to attain stages of the practice, and instability in maintaining a level of practice once attained.</b>
vyadhi = disease
styana = mental laziness, dullness
samshaya = doubt
pramada = carelessness, messed up
alasya = laziness
avirati = sensuality, want of non-attachment, craving
bhranti-darshana = false views or perception, confusion of philosophies, delusion
alabdha-bhumikatva = failing to attain stages of practice
anavasthitatva = instability, slipping down, inability to maintain something previously attained
chitta-vikshepa = distractions of the mind
te = they are, these are
antarayah = obstacles, impediments
</i>
<b>2) Is this pattern the same everyday? </b>
Absolutely not <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> One can only wish it were the same pattern. If I were in a secluded place then the attainment and progress to stage 5 is faster. (I had tested it out by meditating in long bus journey, or in a marketplace, on mountain tops, and in temples during bhajans and of course in places with loud music.) The ears automatically filters out the distractions. It's now easy, but it comes with practice. Thus, you will learn that the mind alone is the key distracting factor.On some days, try as I might, I will not get past the third stage. Sometimes I am too tired physically to meditate, then I just lie down with thoughts of Sri Vidya. Try not to force meditation when the body (and the mind) is demanding rest.
On some days, it takes about 2-3 breaths before I get the warm trickle inside the head and there ends things. (This mostly happened in temples or at home.) Thus, the pattern varies according to HER Divine Will.
<b>3) Is there a name for your form of meditation and does it have a mantra, mudra and asana component for it? (In case it is very personal, please do not post it). </b>
I do not use Mudra, I do however use mantra-japam sometimes. The main requisite is to have a straight alignment of spine-neck-head ( I follow recommendations from Geetha chapter VI.) However, when it comes to chaila-ajeena-kusha (Cloth, Skin, Grass seat) I now do not use these. I Used to use a Kusha (Grass) mat with cloth on it. Did not sit on any skin except "mine".
Now-a-days, there are lots of brand names. But I do not know of any name for what I do. Thus no names in particular. It's Raja Yoga, but also heavily mixed with Bhakthi in the initial stages and towards just awareness in the present stage. Unfortunately I follow no brand names (as that itself is a limitation.) I definitely follow advice of GURU's like Sri Durvasa, Sri Agastya, Sri Shankaracharya, Patanjali, Ramakrishna/Vivekananda, Ramana Maharshi etc.
<b>4) Though unrelated to your previous post, Is the Vishtaadvaitins theory the Bhagavatas theory that you and Swamy Sivananda talks about with reference to Brahma Sutras? </b>
As I do not have in-depth knowledge of Visishtaadvaitha, I cannot say if Bhagavatha school is synonymous with Visishtaadvaitha. But according to Shankara Bhashyam of the Bhadarayana Sutras, The explanation is as follows:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->From the Brahma Sutra bhashya: http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/bs_2/bs_2-2-08.html
The Pancharatra doctrine or the doctrine of the Bhagavatas is now refuted.
According to this school, the Lord is the efficient cause as well as the material cause of the universe. This is in quite agreement with the scripture or the Sruti and so it is authoritative. A part of their system agrees with the Vedanta system. We accept this. Another part of the system, however, is open to objection.
The Bhagavatas say that Vaasudeva whose nature is pure knowledge is what really exists. He divides Himself fourfold and appears in four forms (Vyuhas) as Vaasudeva (Thuriyam), Sankarshana (Praagnah), Pradyumna (Thaijasa) and Aniruddha (Vishva). Vaasudeva denotes the Supreme Self, Sankarshana the individual soul, Pradyumna the mind, and Aniruddha the principle of egoism, or Ahamkara. Of these four Vaasudeva constitutes the Ultimate Cause, of which the three others are the effects.
They say that by devotion for a long period to Vaasudeva through Abhigamana (going to the temple with devotion), Upadana (securing the accessories of worship). Ijya (oblation, worship), Svadhyaya (study of holy scripture and recitation of Mantras) and Yoga (devout meditation) we can pass beyond all afflictions, pains and sorrows, attain Liberation and reach the Supreme Being. <b>We accept this doctrine.</b>
But we controvert the doctrine that Sankarshana (the Jiva) is born from Vaasudeva and so on. <b>Such creation is not possible. If there is such birth, if the soul be created it would be subject to destruction and hence there could be no Liberation. That the soul is not created will be shown in Sutra II.3. 17.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is the second point above (i.e. birth of Sankarshana from Vasudeva etc is Visishtadvaitha? And secondly, where can I get a good Bhashya of BrahmaSutra by Sri Ramanujacharya?