Offshoot from the posts on Emperor Julian in the christianism subversion thread-4 (part of its post 122).
But felt the following belonged here since it is about Gods of Natural Traditions.
On Julian's religion - I think the following blockquote is from http://www.christianism.com. Julian's Ishtadevam was Helios (Greek name of the Greco-Roman sun-God, I think he's called Sol in Latin):
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The proclamation of Julian the Apostate (331-363 A.D.) suddenly inaugurated an unexpected turn in affairs. A philosopher, seated on the throne by the armies of Gaul, <b>Julian had cherished from childhood a secret devotion for Helios. He was firmly convinced that this god had rescued him from the perils that menaced his youth; he believed that he was entrusted by him with a divine mission, and regarded himself as his servitor, or rather as his spiritual son.</b> He dedicated to this celestial "king" a discourse in which the ardor of his faith transforms in places a cold theological dissertation into an inflamed dithyrambic, and <b>the fervor of his devotion for the star that he worshipped never waned to the moment of his death.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Real Gods have such an effect...
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->'After Constantine [Emperor 306 (312) - 337 (280? - 337)], the Roman Empire became increasingly Christianized under successive, ever more intolerant, Christian Emperorsâthat is, apart from a brief spell under Julian (360-3), who tried to reinstate Paganism.193 He was himself a Platonic philosopher noted for his humility who wrote a beautiful hymn to the One God and was an initiate of the Mysteries of Mithras and Dionysus. He proclaimed toleration for all religions194 and even attempted to rebuild the Jewish temple in Jerusalem but, much to the delight of the anti-Semitic Christian Church, he never succeeded.195 Julian's Pagan renaissance was short-lived and after it Christianity was reinstated and enforced with even greater vehemence.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Julian wrote the following Hymn:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->["The Oration ["Hymn to King Helios"] is dedicated to his friend and comrade in arms Sallust". Sallust c. 360 wrote (Pagan Classic!): On the Gods and the World. 'Cumont calls this "the official catechism of the Pagan empire".' (351)].
<b>'Hymn to King Helios</b>
Dedicated to Sallust
What I am now about to say I consider to be of the greatest importance for all things "That breathe and move upon the earth," and have a share in existence and a reasoning soul1 and intelligence, but above all others it is of importance to myself. <b>For I am a follower of King Helios. ....from my childhood an extraordinary longing for the rays of the god penetrated deep into my soul;</b> and from my earliest years my mind was so completely swayed by the light that illumines the heavens that not only did I desire to gaze intently at the sun, but whenever I walked abroad in the night season, when the firmament was clear and cloudless, I abandoned all else without exception and gave myself up to the beauties of the heavens; nor did I understand what anyone might say to me, nor heed what I was doing myself.' [353].<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->The bold bit above is similar to what Hindu Surya Bhaktas feel as well (like my sister). Hindus therefore can tell that Julian is sincere.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The philosopher Julian [331 - 363 (Emperor 361 - 363)] observesâ"We celebrate some days before the first day of the year with magnificent sports, in honour of the invincible God, Mithra or the Sun. May we long have the happiness to celebrate thy appearance, O Sun, king of the universe!" This expression is after the manner of Plato, who calls the Sun, the "Son of God;" and we are informed that all the monuments raised by the Persians to their great Divinity, have these words inscribed on them "To the God Sun, the invincible Mithra."<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also found the following. Though it's not entirely on topic, it is useful as general info on the unconverted Romans. Christohistory always tries to present them as "immoral" or as uniformly promiscuous. They were not.
A part of Roman society was getting obsessed with phalluses and the more extreme obsessions with sex that sprung up around the social changes caused by some cults. From watching a documentary on some Romans' growing obsession with this, I know they kept objects immediately identifiable as phalluses and not mistakeable as anything else (that is, they were not symbolic abstract shaped objects that were perceived by other populations as phalluses), just like Tibetan (or was it Burmese or Bhutanese?) houses have drawings of what are <i>distinctly</i> male sexual organs drawn on the external walls of their homes possibly to promote increased chance of conception - I think it is the doco-series "Himalaya" by Michael Palin which has video footage of these traditional houses in the mountains.
Anyways, the less-materialistic part of the Pagan Roman world wasn't quite pleased with the societal subversions brought on by the sex-cults in the Empire. I've stored the following text as being from Joseph McCabe:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Let us say at once that Christianity, when it got the power, abolished all public manifestations of a phallic cult. That was of the very essence of its message. On its ethical side it was part of the reaction, felt throughout the Greco-Roman world, against the cult of sex. Apollonius of Tyana, Plutarch, Dion Chrysostom, Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius, Julian, Seneca -- the world was full of moralists and ascetics denouncing these things. The religions of Mithra, Serapis, and Manichaeus, and the philosophies of the Platonists and Neo-Platonists, the Stoics, and the Epicureans, were all trying to abolish them; and with more success than Christianity until the church got and used political power.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->But unlike scary christianism, these Pagans did not think that sex was a sin or whatever. They just didn't like the irresponsible and aloof promiscuity promoted by the cults and thought that the heightened preoccupation with it was becoming unhealthy for individuals and society. (The Pagan Romans listed above were philosophers and/or natural traditionalists and at least some of them like Julian and possibly Aurelius had wives; I don't know about the rest. In any case it was not because of any aversion they had to sex that made them ban the weird sex-cults.)
And as a tangential inference, I will conclude that perhaps Indian Dharmics were - like Julian and the others mentioned above - not "prudish" either (as they have sometimes been accused of being). Just because people do not appreciate an over-obsession doesn't mean they disapprove of sex itself.
But felt the following belonged here since it is about Gods of Natural Traditions.
On Julian's religion - I think the following blockquote is from http://www.christianism.com. Julian's Ishtadevam was Helios (Greek name of the Greco-Roman sun-God, I think he's called Sol in Latin):
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The proclamation of Julian the Apostate (331-363 A.D.) suddenly inaugurated an unexpected turn in affairs. A philosopher, seated on the throne by the armies of Gaul, <b>Julian had cherished from childhood a secret devotion for Helios. He was firmly convinced that this god had rescued him from the perils that menaced his youth; he believed that he was entrusted by him with a divine mission, and regarded himself as his servitor, or rather as his spiritual son.</b> He dedicated to this celestial "king" a discourse in which the ardor of his faith transforms in places a cold theological dissertation into an inflamed dithyrambic, and <b>the fervor of his devotion for the star that he worshipped never waned to the moment of his death.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Real Gods have such an effect...
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->'After Constantine [Emperor 306 (312) - 337 (280? - 337)], the Roman Empire became increasingly Christianized under successive, ever more intolerant, Christian Emperorsâthat is, apart from a brief spell under Julian (360-3), who tried to reinstate Paganism.193 He was himself a Platonic philosopher noted for his humility who wrote a beautiful hymn to the One God and was an initiate of the Mysteries of Mithras and Dionysus. He proclaimed toleration for all religions194 and even attempted to rebuild the Jewish temple in Jerusalem but, much to the delight of the anti-Semitic Christian Church, he never succeeded.195 Julian's Pagan renaissance was short-lived and after it Christianity was reinstated and enforced with even greater vehemence.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Julian wrote the following Hymn:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->["The Oration ["Hymn to King Helios"] is dedicated to his friend and comrade in arms Sallust". Sallust c. 360 wrote (Pagan Classic!): On the Gods and the World. 'Cumont calls this "the official catechism of the Pagan empire".' (351)].
<b>'Hymn to King Helios</b>
Dedicated to Sallust
What I am now about to say I consider to be of the greatest importance for all things "That breathe and move upon the earth," and have a share in existence and a reasoning soul1 and intelligence, but above all others it is of importance to myself. <b>For I am a follower of King Helios. ....from my childhood an extraordinary longing for the rays of the god penetrated deep into my soul;</b> and from my earliest years my mind was so completely swayed by the light that illumines the heavens that not only did I desire to gaze intently at the sun, but whenever I walked abroad in the night season, when the firmament was clear and cloudless, I abandoned all else without exception and gave myself up to the beauties of the heavens; nor did I understand what anyone might say to me, nor heed what I was doing myself.' [353].<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->The bold bit above is similar to what Hindu Surya Bhaktas feel as well (like my sister). Hindus therefore can tell that Julian is sincere.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The philosopher Julian [331 - 363 (Emperor 361 - 363)] observesâ"We celebrate some days before the first day of the year with magnificent sports, in honour of the invincible God, Mithra or the Sun. May we long have the happiness to celebrate thy appearance, O Sun, king of the universe!" This expression is after the manner of Plato, who calls the Sun, the "Son of God;" and we are informed that all the monuments raised by the Persians to their great Divinity, have these words inscribed on them "To the God Sun, the invincible Mithra."<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also found the following. Though it's not entirely on topic, it is useful as general info on the unconverted Romans. Christohistory always tries to present them as "immoral" or as uniformly promiscuous. They were not.
A part of Roman society was getting obsessed with phalluses and the more extreme obsessions with sex that sprung up around the social changes caused by some cults. From watching a documentary on some Romans' growing obsession with this, I know they kept objects immediately identifiable as phalluses and not mistakeable as anything else (that is, they were not symbolic abstract shaped objects that were perceived by other populations as phalluses), just like Tibetan (or was it Burmese or Bhutanese?) houses have drawings of what are <i>distinctly</i> male sexual organs drawn on the external walls of their homes possibly to promote increased chance of conception - I think it is the doco-series "Himalaya" by Michael Palin which has video footage of these traditional houses in the mountains.
Anyways, the less-materialistic part of the Pagan Roman world wasn't quite pleased with the societal subversions brought on by the sex-cults in the Empire. I've stored the following text as being from Joseph McCabe:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Let us say at once that Christianity, when it got the power, abolished all public manifestations of a phallic cult. That was of the very essence of its message. On its ethical side it was part of the reaction, felt throughout the Greco-Roman world, against the cult of sex. Apollonius of Tyana, Plutarch, Dion Chrysostom, Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius, Julian, Seneca -- the world was full of moralists and ascetics denouncing these things. The religions of Mithra, Serapis, and Manichaeus, and the philosophies of the Platonists and Neo-Platonists, the Stoics, and the Epicureans, were all trying to abolish them; and with more success than Christianity until the church got and used political power.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->But unlike scary christianism, these Pagans did not think that sex was a sin or whatever. They just didn't like the irresponsible and aloof promiscuity promoted by the cults and thought that the heightened preoccupation with it was becoming unhealthy for individuals and society. (The Pagan Romans listed above were philosophers and/or natural traditionalists and at least some of them like Julian and possibly Aurelius had wives; I don't know about the rest. In any case it was not because of any aversion they had to sex that made them ban the weird sex-cults.)
And as a tangential inference, I will conclude that perhaps Indian Dharmics were - like Julian and the others mentioned above - not "prudish" either (as they have sometimes been accused of being). Just because people do not appreciate an over-obsession doesn't mean they disapprove of sex itself.