<!--QuoteBegin-Sauravjha+Jun 10 2008, 04:49 PM-->QUOTE(Sauravjha @ Jun 10 2008, 04:49 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Okay just to be fair ,
we must make it clear as to which form of christanity we are referring to and precisely which particular aspect of that form are we analysing.  As far as I am concerned our beef is primarily with the evangelist aspect of mainstream Christianity.
[right][snapback]82623[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Not that argument again.
No.
The problem has always been the terrorist ideology (mindvirus) which manifests as christianism, islamism, communism, nazism, and some further offspring.
If you imagine it is evangelism that is the problem, then you don't (yet) know about the theology of christianism or the history that resulted <b>because</b> of it. (Knowing that the causation of that history is the bible=christianism is very important, and in fact, it's hard to read about all that history without encountering the loudly-expressed christoislami motivations behind all the events.)
I wouldn't generally advise this to anyone, but pseculars deserve it: Read the bible. I did. Oh, and have a bucket handy if gawd-ordained genocide, rape, "dashing children's heads against rocks" and that sort of thing makes you feel disgusted inside. Leastways, it does every normal human being.
Look, this guy is not preaching evangelism here, he's just your average prominent christian. So going by what you stated, you won't have a problem with this:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"Unbelievers deserve not only to be separated from the Church, but also... to be exterminated from the World by death."
-- Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, 1271<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->By the way, he's "Doctor of the church" (in christianism, that's a <i>theological</i> title, not the medical or phd kind) and he's much revered and respected to this day.
Oh, and more about him:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->It is mainly his doctrine of evil demons - incubi and succubi, allegedly cohabiting with witches - that served as theoretical basis for thousands of inquisition verdicts.
Link http://web.archive.org/web/20030211060034/....geo/shame.html<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->But do you mind that? He wasn't preaching evangelising women, he was only faithfully following the bible in how to deal with "witches" and also jeebus' threats of hellfire (see the New Testament).
That's from the page http://freetruth.50webs.org/C1.htm which has more information on him and other similarly benevolent christian saints.
Actually, before wanting to "dialogue" on christianism, you may want to read:
http://freetruth.50webs.org/ - on the history of christianism
http://freetruth.50webs.org/Overview2.htm - origins of christianism
http://freetruth.50webs.org/Overview4.htm - present christianism
(http://freetruth.50webs.org/Overview3.htm - christian denominations
Not terribly exciting. And the popes page reads like a nightmarish horror novel)
If you don't want to read it, fine. But if you start arguing that we can't become intolerant by reading the facts on that or other site, or quoting christian saints or regular historians (that site is full of quotations from historians and stuff, such as church historian Deschner and ex-Franciscan monk Joseph "encyclopaedic mind" McCabe), then you might as well start supporting tolerance toward nazism using the same arguments. Oh wait. Nazism had fewer casualties and was less bigoted - and was in fact the 20th century version of the usual christian massacre of European Jewry.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->according to historian Dagobert Runes, Hitler's methods were actually modelled on the Christian one:
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Everything Hitler did to the Jews, all the horrible, unspeakable misdeeds, had already been done to the smitten people before by the Christian churches ... The isolation of the Jews into ghetto camps, the wearing of the yellow spot, the burning of Jewish books and finally, the burning of the people - <b>Hitler learned it all from the church. However, the church burned Jewish women and children alive, while Hitler granted them a quicker death, choking them first with gas.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[Link] http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/semite.html<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->See how the jeebus followers the nazis (historical photos of nazi gathering of priesties and nuns) were more benign in the 20th century! And note how they were <i>not</i> evangelising the Jews, so I guess that makes it all better? They were only being good, faithful christians taking "revenge" on the Jews for the fictitious assassination of the fictitious jeebus (see http://www.jesusneverexisted.com ). Just like they did since Rome converted to christoterrorism:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Christian Roman Emperor Justinian was the one
who legalized the burning and pillaging of Jewish synagogues by Christian bishops and monks (often canonized later). [Link] http://www.nobeliefs.com/ChurchesWWII.htm#anchor2<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And of course the work of Martin Luther - protestant reformer extraordaire (or rather, just the ordinary/typical christian) - inspired the nazis with his precious little book "About the Jews and their lies". It's the usual christian dawaganda that the nazis=German churches merely repeated. See http://freetruth.50webs.org/C4a.htm#LutherOnJews
Oh look, the benign Luther wasn't willing to evangelise Jews either:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"If I had to baptise a Jew, I would take him to the bridge of the Elbe, hang a stone around his neck and push him over with the words 'I baptise thee in the name of Abraham'."
-- <b>Martin Luther, "Hitler's Spiritual Ancestor" by Peter F. Weiner</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Notice also the title of that book.
http://freetruth.50webs.org/A4a.htm
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In the first few decades since 1492, it was thought that Indians did not have souls because they were "animals" in human form. Therefore, it was believed they could be hunted down like animals, which they were. It was only in 1530 CE that the Pope declared that the Indians were human. Having established their humanity, it was decided that they must be inducted into Christianity. As the Indians were unwilling, this was accomplished by force. Though the change in their status from animal to human might appear to be an improvement, in reality, little changed in their plight.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->At first they weren't evangelising the native Americans, but evangelism or no, it made no difference to the victims did it?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"The [Catholic] Spaniards in Mexico and Peru used to baptize Indian infants and then immediately dash their brains out; by this means they secured that these infants went to heaven."
-- Bertrand Russell<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All in the past you say? (<- At least, all the psecular apologists always bring that up)
Here you go, christians in Korea who gave up on trying to convert/evangelise the stubborn Korean Buddhists, and decided that they will destroy Buddhist temples and Vigrahas since they couldn't win:
TIMELINE Buddhism under Siege in Korea <b>1982-1996</b> - http://www.buddhapia.com/eng/tedesco/2.html
TIMELINE Chronology of Events January <b>1997-December 1998</b> - http://www.buddhapia.com/eng/tedesco/3.html
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"If I acted on what I believed I, too, could have vandalized temples. When I consider those who commit such acts I think to myself that they have a much stronger faith than me."
-- Deacon Lee Bahn-Sung "a former Buddhist turned Christian", BBC-World (TV), Asia Today, May 21, 1999. [Link]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->See, the christian faithful is not talking about evangelising those who refuse. He's only referring to his duty as per his gawd's biblical commandment and as per the lessons on "idolators" in the bible: not to let any pagan idolatrous heathen unsaved kaffiri infidels do their thing wherever they may be.
The greatest hoax in history is also the deadliest one - it <b>continues to kill</b> (see fourth link "present christianism" http://freetruth.50webs.org/Overview4.htm ).
we must make it clear as to which form of christanity we are referring to and precisely which particular aspect of that form are we analysing.  As far as I am concerned our beef is primarily with the evangelist aspect of mainstream Christianity.
[right][snapback]82623[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Not that argument again.
No.
The problem has always been the terrorist ideology (mindvirus) which manifests as christianism, islamism, communism, nazism, and some further offspring.
If you imagine it is evangelism that is the problem, then you don't (yet) know about the theology of christianism or the history that resulted <b>because</b> of it. (Knowing that the causation of that history is the bible=christianism is very important, and in fact, it's hard to read about all that history without encountering the loudly-expressed christoislami motivations behind all the events.)
I wouldn't generally advise this to anyone, but pseculars deserve it: Read the bible. I did. Oh, and have a bucket handy if gawd-ordained genocide, rape, "dashing children's heads against rocks" and that sort of thing makes you feel disgusted inside. Leastways, it does every normal human being.
Look, this guy is not preaching evangelism here, he's just your average prominent christian. So going by what you stated, you won't have a problem with this:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"Unbelievers deserve not only to be separated from the Church, but also... to be exterminated from the World by death."
-- Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, 1271<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->By the way, he's "Doctor of the church" (in christianism, that's a <i>theological</i> title, not the medical or phd kind) and he's much revered and respected to this day.
Oh, and more about him:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->It is mainly his doctrine of evil demons - incubi and succubi, allegedly cohabiting with witches - that served as theoretical basis for thousands of inquisition verdicts.
Link http://web.archive.org/web/20030211060034/....geo/shame.html<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->But do you mind that? He wasn't preaching evangelising women, he was only faithfully following the bible in how to deal with "witches" and also jeebus' threats of hellfire (see the New Testament).
That's from the page http://freetruth.50webs.org/C1.htm which has more information on him and other similarly benevolent christian saints.
Actually, before wanting to "dialogue" on christianism, you may want to read:
http://freetruth.50webs.org/ - on the history of christianism
http://freetruth.50webs.org/Overview2.htm - origins of christianism
http://freetruth.50webs.org/Overview4.htm - present christianism
(http://freetruth.50webs.org/Overview3.htm - christian denominations
Not terribly exciting. And the popes page reads like a nightmarish horror novel)
If you don't want to read it, fine. But if you start arguing that we can't become intolerant by reading the facts on that or other site, or quoting christian saints or regular historians (that site is full of quotations from historians and stuff, such as church historian Deschner and ex-Franciscan monk Joseph "encyclopaedic mind" McCabe), then you might as well start supporting tolerance toward nazism using the same arguments. Oh wait. Nazism had fewer casualties and was less bigoted - and was in fact the 20th century version of the usual christian massacre of European Jewry.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->according to historian Dagobert Runes, Hitler's methods were actually modelled on the Christian one:
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Everything Hitler did to the Jews, all the horrible, unspeakable misdeeds, had already been done to the smitten people before by the Christian churches ... The isolation of the Jews into ghetto camps, the wearing of the yellow spot, the burning of Jewish books and finally, the burning of the people - <b>Hitler learned it all from the church. However, the church burned Jewish women and children alive, while Hitler granted them a quicker death, choking them first with gas.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[Link] http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/semite.html<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->See how the jeebus followers the nazis (historical photos of nazi gathering of priesties and nuns) were more benign in the 20th century! And note how they were <i>not</i> evangelising the Jews, so I guess that makes it all better? They were only being good, faithful christians taking "revenge" on the Jews for the fictitious assassination of the fictitious jeebus (see http://www.jesusneverexisted.com ). Just like they did since Rome converted to christoterrorism:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Christian Roman Emperor Justinian was the one
who legalized the burning and pillaging of Jewish synagogues by Christian bishops and monks (often canonized later). [Link] http://www.nobeliefs.com/ChurchesWWII.htm#anchor2<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And of course the work of Martin Luther - protestant reformer extraordaire (or rather, just the ordinary/typical christian) - inspired the nazis with his precious little book "About the Jews and their lies". It's the usual christian dawaganda that the nazis=German churches merely repeated. See http://freetruth.50webs.org/C4a.htm#LutherOnJews
Oh look, the benign Luther wasn't willing to evangelise Jews either:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"If I had to baptise a Jew, I would take him to the bridge of the Elbe, hang a stone around his neck and push him over with the words 'I baptise thee in the name of Abraham'."
-- <b>Martin Luther, "Hitler's Spiritual Ancestor" by Peter F. Weiner</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Notice also the title of that book.
http://freetruth.50webs.org/A4a.htm
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In the first few decades since 1492, it was thought that Indians did not have souls because they were "animals" in human form. Therefore, it was believed they could be hunted down like animals, which they were. It was only in 1530 CE that the Pope declared that the Indians were human. Having established their humanity, it was decided that they must be inducted into Christianity. As the Indians were unwilling, this was accomplished by force. Though the change in their status from animal to human might appear to be an improvement, in reality, little changed in their plight.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->At first they weren't evangelising the native Americans, but evangelism or no, it made no difference to the victims did it?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"The [Catholic] Spaniards in Mexico and Peru used to baptize Indian infants and then immediately dash their brains out; by this means they secured that these infants went to heaven."
-- Bertrand Russell<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All in the past you say? (<- At least, all the psecular apologists always bring that up)
Here you go, christians in Korea who gave up on trying to convert/evangelise the stubborn Korean Buddhists, and decided that they will destroy Buddhist temples and Vigrahas since they couldn't win:
TIMELINE Buddhism under Siege in Korea <b>1982-1996</b> - http://www.buddhapia.com/eng/tedesco/2.html
TIMELINE Chronology of Events January <b>1997-December 1998</b> - http://www.buddhapia.com/eng/tedesco/3.html
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"If I acted on what I believed I, too, could have vandalized temples. When I consider those who commit such acts I think to myself that they have a much stronger faith than me."
-- Deacon Lee Bahn-Sung "a former Buddhist turned Christian", BBC-World (TV), Asia Today, May 21, 1999. [Link]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->See, the christian faithful is not talking about evangelising those who refuse. He's only referring to his duty as per his gawd's biblical commandment and as per the lessons on "idolators" in the bible: not to let any pagan idolatrous heathen unsaved kaffiri infidels do their thing wherever they may be.
The greatest hoax in history is also the deadliest one - it <b>continues to kill</b> (see fourth link "present christianism" http://freetruth.50webs.org/Overview4.htm ).