Koenraad Elst wrote on a list: (He is healthy)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In fact, modern Hindus have a far more static view of Indian history
than the Orientalists. And to the extent that the latter had a static
view of India, they had largely borrowed it from their native
informers. Go to any of the Hindu activist forums, where Vaishnava or
Arya etc., you will see all the anger at Orientalists for
acknowledging *change* in Indian religious history.
Thus, on a list where both of us are members, we just had a little
debate on whether the notion of reincarnation exists in the Rg-Veda.
****** was attacked for saying that it doesn't. All that
anyone could come up with as proof of this notion was three verses
from the latest part of the Rg-Veda, in which "rebirth" may perhaps
be mentioned, but not at all as a natural process affecting us all,
inevitably, and not as a miserable fate we have to get away from,-- a
Buddhist notion now pretty universally accepted (lip service) by most
Hindus but most definitely non-Vedic. So no, reincarnation was not
part of Sanâtana ("eternal") Dharma, it was an innovation. (Or as a
believer might put it, a "discovery": first the notion wasn't there,
then some yogi saw the "truth" of reincarnation, then the idea
spread, while more and more practitioners learnt the technique
to "verify" the "fact" of reincarnation.)
Nonetheless, most Hindus insists on projecting their cherished post-
Vedic notions onto the Vedas, calling the karma/reincarnation
doctrine "Vedic", just as they call the Indian version of Hellenistic
astrology "Vedic astrology", or Indian cooking with Portuguese-
imported potatoes and tomatoes and chillis "Vedic cooking". No harm
done, I suppose, but when Orientalists have patiently deconstructed
this *Hindu* belief in the static unchanging "eternal" character of
Hindu beliefs, I see many Hindus reacting angrily to
this "Eurocentric" disrespect for Hindus' self-understanding.
Likewise, Vaishnavas like to project the practice of idol-worship
onto the Vedas, and more importantly, the belief in divine
incarnations. The Greeks and many other pre-Christian ancients had
this notion of particular human beings, heroes or sages, being gods
incarnate, so it is not impossible that ancient Indians had a similar
notions. Only, translators have never found it in the Rg-Veda. Worse,
even in the Ramayana and Mahabharata, philological analysis has shown
that Rama and Krishna were originally just humn beings, heroes
alright, but human mortals nonetheless. Only in the latest-added
parts do they start becoming divine incarnations. Vishnu's penchant
for incarnating among us humans, now a core belief of the majority of
Hindus, is a post-Vedic innovation.
The same tendency to reject historicity is in evidence in the debate
on the origins of Indo-European and Indo-Aryan. Though the
distinction between Vedic and Classical Sanskrit has been
acknowledged since Panini himself, numerous Hindus deny a history,
i.e. change, to the language of the gods. If at all they acknowledge
the existence of an Indo-European language family, they cannot
conceive of a pre-Sanskrit language as its origin, with Sanskrit
merely an evolute on the same footing as Greek or Hittite.
I have been wondering for some time why Hindu opponents of the AIT
(with the exception of Shrikant Talageri) have failed so completely
to try and fit their favoured Indian-origin scenario with the data of
historical linguistics. The fact that historical linguistics is
simply not taught in Indian universities is not the whole
explanation. I now believe that the deeply ingrained Hindu aversion
to the idea of change in a deeply cherished and religious item such
as the Sanskrit language has more to do with it.
Another factor for the aversion to PIE is of course the perceived
claim by AIT believers that historical linguistics has somehow proven
the AIT. Anyone still under this illusion ought to study the inter-
linguist Urheimat debate. Watch the confidence with which they
dismiss each other's theories, how one fully qualified linguist can
believe it was Anatolia, another it was the Baltic area, another
finding it in South Russia, and none stumbling against hard
linguistic data that preclude his own preferred scenario. Surely an
attempt could be made to make a case at least equally convincing for
India, all dressed up in linguistic jargon. Then at least the AIT
opponents could still be on speaking terms with the rest of the
world.
But so far, the present generation of Indian AIT opponents has
completely failed to even make a beginning. That includes you,
****. Your presence on this list indicates you are at least aware
of the importance of IE linguistics, I hope you use the occasion to
learn.
Kind regards,
KE<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In fact, modern Hindus have a far more static view of Indian history
than the Orientalists. And to the extent that the latter had a static
view of India, they had largely borrowed it from their native
informers. Go to any of the Hindu activist forums, where Vaishnava or
Arya etc., you will see all the anger at Orientalists for
acknowledging *change* in Indian religious history.
Thus, on a list where both of us are members, we just had a little
debate on whether the notion of reincarnation exists in the Rg-Veda.
****** was attacked for saying that it doesn't. All that
anyone could come up with as proof of this notion was three verses
from the latest part of the Rg-Veda, in which "rebirth" may perhaps
be mentioned, but not at all as a natural process affecting us all,
inevitably, and not as a miserable fate we have to get away from,-- a
Buddhist notion now pretty universally accepted (lip service) by most
Hindus but most definitely non-Vedic. So no, reincarnation was not
part of Sanâtana ("eternal") Dharma, it was an innovation. (Or as a
believer might put it, a "discovery": first the notion wasn't there,
then some yogi saw the "truth" of reincarnation, then the idea
spread, while more and more practitioners learnt the technique
to "verify" the "fact" of reincarnation.)
Nonetheless, most Hindus insists on projecting their cherished post-
Vedic notions onto the Vedas, calling the karma/reincarnation
doctrine "Vedic", just as they call the Indian version of Hellenistic
astrology "Vedic astrology", or Indian cooking with Portuguese-
imported potatoes and tomatoes and chillis "Vedic cooking". No harm
done, I suppose, but when Orientalists have patiently deconstructed
this *Hindu* belief in the static unchanging "eternal" character of
Hindu beliefs, I see many Hindus reacting angrily to
this "Eurocentric" disrespect for Hindus' self-understanding.
Likewise, Vaishnavas like to project the practice of idol-worship
onto the Vedas, and more importantly, the belief in divine
incarnations. The Greeks and many other pre-Christian ancients had
this notion of particular human beings, heroes or sages, being gods
incarnate, so it is not impossible that ancient Indians had a similar
notions. Only, translators have never found it in the Rg-Veda. Worse,
even in the Ramayana and Mahabharata, philological analysis has shown
that Rama and Krishna were originally just humn beings, heroes
alright, but human mortals nonetheless. Only in the latest-added
parts do they start becoming divine incarnations. Vishnu's penchant
for incarnating among us humans, now a core belief of the majority of
Hindus, is a post-Vedic innovation.
The same tendency to reject historicity is in evidence in the debate
on the origins of Indo-European and Indo-Aryan. Though the
distinction between Vedic and Classical Sanskrit has been
acknowledged since Panini himself, numerous Hindus deny a history,
i.e. change, to the language of the gods. If at all they acknowledge
the existence of an Indo-European language family, they cannot
conceive of a pre-Sanskrit language as its origin, with Sanskrit
merely an evolute on the same footing as Greek or Hittite.
I have been wondering for some time why Hindu opponents of the AIT
(with the exception of Shrikant Talageri) have failed so completely
to try and fit their favoured Indian-origin scenario with the data of
historical linguistics. The fact that historical linguistics is
simply not taught in Indian universities is not the whole
explanation. I now believe that the deeply ingrained Hindu aversion
to the idea of change in a deeply cherished and religious item such
as the Sanskrit language has more to do with it.
Another factor for the aversion to PIE is of course the perceived
claim by AIT believers that historical linguistics has somehow proven
the AIT. Anyone still under this illusion ought to study the inter-
linguist Urheimat debate. Watch the confidence with which they
dismiss each other's theories, how one fully qualified linguist can
believe it was Anatolia, another it was the Baltic area, another
finding it in South Russia, and none stumbling against hard
linguistic data that preclude his own preferred scenario. Surely an
attempt could be made to make a case at least equally convincing for
India, all dressed up in linguistic jargon. Then at least the AIT
opponents could still be on speaking terms with the rest of the
world.
But so far, the present generation of Indian AIT opponents has
completely failed to even make a beginning. That includes you,
****. Your presence on this list indicates you are at least aware
of the importance of IE linguistics, I hope you use the occasion to
learn.
Kind regards,
KE<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->